MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU Avenue on March 17, 2014, 01:38:02 PM
-
I have never understood why such praise was heaped upon Tom Crean when he was coaching at Marquette. I never saw Crean’s coaching greatness then and I do not see it now.
I think people, including fans, real sports reporters and the ESPN talkers, like to attach star qualities or greatness to certain athletes or coaches, and Crean was the beneficiary. Most who proclaimed Crean a rising star among collegiate coaches knew only what they had read or heard. They had never seen him on the job and knew nothing about his recruiting, how he runs a team or how he coaches during games.
Closer to home, I know Coach Williams has a lot of good ol’ boy folksiness, spunk and kookiness that fans, real sports reporters and the FOX Sports 1 and ESPN talkers find appealing, but I continue to struggle with what makes Buzz a great coach -- or even a guy on the road to greatness.
-
What makes you a good fan?
-
I never understood why such praise was heaped upon Tom Crean when he was coaching at Marquette. I never saw Crean’s coaching greatness then and I do not see it now.
I think people, including fans, real sports reporters and the ESPN talkers, like to attach star qualities or greatness to certain athletes or coaches, and Crean was the beneficiary. Most who proclaimed Crean a rising star among collegiate coaches knew only what they had read or heard. They had never seen him on the job and knew nothing about his recruiting, how he runs a team or how he coaches during games.
Closer to home, I know Coach Williams has a lot of good ol’ boy folksiness, spunk and kookiness that fans, real sports reporters and the FOX Sports 1 and ESPN talkers find appealing, but I continue to struggle with what makes Buzz a great coach -- or even a guy on the road to greatness.
I agree. I mean he always loses on national TV, right?
Perhaps you missed the first five years of Buzz's Marquette career.
-
he is a great representative for the university.
-
What makes you a good fan?
(http://i.imgur.com/utgan3A.gif)
-
Right, im just gonna just point out a few examples feel free to stop me at any time...
The midgets
The progression of Jimmy, DJO and Jae at an alarming rate
The fact that Otule was serviceable despite how he started
Davante turning from being a fat 300lb to two time 6th man of the BE
Never a losing record in the BE
An elite 8 with what I dont even consider to be a great team
Doing what he did in 2011-12 with Otule and Davante hurt for a stretch
Never having a losing record in the BE
Shutting down Shane Larkin
etc...
-
I agree. I mean he always loses on national TV, right?
If Buzz would sh1t can those baby blues that wouldn't be happening
-
Exhibits A, B, C, D and E: Davante Gardner, Jae Crowder, Jimmy Butler, DJO, and Wes Matthews.
Buzz not only has a tendency to see potential in guys often overlooked by his colleagues, but he also has a knack for tapping that potential.
Davante came to MU as an unheralded and unknown three-star. Left as two-time 6th man in Big East.
Jae and DJO were JUCOs who were neck and neck for BE POY their senior year.
Wes Matthews was unleashed his senior year after being hamstrung in a role his first three years.
And then there's Jimmy... without Buzz, there's probably no F in Jimmy F Butler.
In my opinion, Buzz is a slightly above-average recruiter & a slightly below average X's and O's guy, but he's a phenomenal leader - one of the best in college hoops (if not the best) - and a fine human being. I'd much rather have the latter two... it gives you much better odds at success no matter how the deck is stacked against you.
-
I don't know that he is great coach or even a good coach. I think he is a great human being and a great recruiter. His performance this year has made me question what kind of a coach he really is. His teams will always play hard, however there were some occasions this year where they seemed to not play with any heart at all. I thought his in game adjustments and rotations were atrocious this year and we seemed to have issues even inbounding the damn ball on multiple occasions. His plays out of timeouts rarely work and are real head scratchers. Aside from Davante, Vander, and the jucos, players don't really seem to develop all that much for him. I think you could make a case that Juan, Jamil, and Derrick all regressed under him. I really think he needs to evaluate his performance and hopefully take a couple of great takeaways from this season. I still think he is the right man for Marquette...just needs to hopefully fine tune some things.
-
It's actually a good question because of the dual nature of a college coach both coaching and recruiting his team. Unlike most NBA coaching jobs, where coaches have input but ultimately the personnel decisions lie with the GM, as a college coach you are both responsible for the players on the team and the results of the players.
Buzz Williams himself will tell you he isn't a good coach. What does that say? Is he being honest or is it an attempt at humility?
Where my contention to the camp who is so quick to say that there is no talent on this team this year essentially giving Buzz a pass are really saying Buzz is doing a poor job at another equally important aspect of his responsibilites.
It's my personal opinion that Buzz is a much better recruiter and motivator than he is great coach. For all the talk about fundamentals, many highly rated recruits show extremely poor fundamentals as upperclassmen. It's almost as if the mantra is to recruit talented athletes and make them outwork their opponents and all is well. There doesn't seem to be a lot of x's and o's mastery on display even in seasons prior.
This season most of our losses came against teams less athletic than Marquette, but much better coached.
-
That despite a year that was downright pathetic, he has earned a mulligan. Bad coaches don't get those. He even has another in the bank, but as long as the têterectectomy is successful in the offseason, he shouldn't need to use it.
-
It's actually a good question because of the dual nature of a college coach both coaching and recruiting his team. Unlike most NBA coaching jobs, where coaches have input but ultimately the personnel decisions lie with the GM, as a college coach you are both responsible for the players on the team and the results of the players.
Buzz Williams himself will tell you he isn't a good coach. What does that say? Is he being honest or is it an attempt at humility?
Where my contention to the camp who is so quick to say that there is no talent on this team this year essentially giving Buzz a pass are really saying Buzz is doing a poor job at another equally important aspect of his responsibilites.
It's my personal opinion that Buzz is a much better recruiter and motivator than he is great coach. For all the talk about fundamentals, many highly rated recruits show extremely poor fundamentals as upperclassmen. It's almost as if the mantra is to recruit talented athletes and make them outwork their opponents and all is well. There doesn't seem to be a lot of x's and o's mastery on display even in seasons prior.
This season most of our losses came against teams less athletic than Marquette, but much better coached.
+1
-
It's actually a good question because of the dual nature of a college coach both coaching and recruiting his team. Unlike most NBA coaching jobs, where coaches have input but ultimately the personnel decisions lie with the GM, as a college coach you are both responsible for the players on the team and the results of the players.
Buzz Williams himself will tell you he isn't a good coach. What does that say? Is he being honest or is it an attempt at humility?
Where my contention to the camp who is so quick to say that there is no talent on this team this year essentially giving Buzz a pass are really saying Buzz is doing a poor job at another equally important aspect of his responsibilites.
It's my personal opinion that Buzz is a much better recruiter and motivator than he is great coach. For all the talk about fundamentals, many highly rated recruits show extremely poor fundamentals as upperclassmen. It's almost as if the mantra is to recruit talented athletes and make them outwork their opponents and all is well. There doesn't seem to be a lot of x's and o's mastery on display even in seasons prior.
This season most of our losses came against teams less athletic than Marquette, but much better coached.
I am a Buzz fan, but am certainly not giving him a pass on this year. I do not think we were as talented as some. We were certainly not as athletic as teams like Villanova or St. John's. We were not as "well coached" as Creighton, but I think that is overplayed as well given that team's makeup. We had serious deficiencies as a team that started with the ability of our available personnel. How that combines with execution I think has a dramatic impact on perceived coaching ability. Regardless of degree, both were lacking.
-
So most who have replied here agree that Buzz Williams is the real deal? An outstanding head coach? You believe that he is a terrific practice and game coach whose decisions, planning, strategies, substitutions and in-game adjustments are the stuff of greatness?
I think mubuzz and mattyv1908 are seeing the truth here. Others, no.
-
So most who have replied here agree that Buzz Williams is the real deal? An outstanding head coach? You believe that he is a terrific practice and game coach whose decisions, planning, strategies, substitutions and in-game adjustments are the stuff of greatness?
I think mubuzz and mattyv1908 are seeing the truth here. Others, no.
Let me put it this way and to anybody else out there. Which other college coach do you think is better then Buzz and would rather see coach our program that isnt locked up by another school like Boeheim and coach K. Serious question because I dont see anybody who would be leaving their job anytime soon that is better than Buzz.
-
In my opinion, Buzz is a slightly above-average recruiter & a slightly below average X's and O's guy, but he's a phenomenal leader - one of the best in college hoops (if not the best) - and a fine human being. I'd much rather have the latter two... it gives you much better odds at success no matter how the deck is stacked against you.
+1, and for whatever reason he couldn't get it done this year. i thought they were toast with the midget backcourt and he came through, and i think he'll figure something out next year as well.
i was watching a game this weekend and they talked about how unusual jamie dixon's philosophy is in regards to not giving a lot of minutes to freshman, and really relying on juniors and seniors (and telling this to kids as he recruits). sounded familiar. i think buzz was going to live and die with the seniors and he died...next year, back to work. will be interesting to see what he does with guys like juan and derrick.
-
So most who have replied here agree that Buzz Williams is the real deal? An outstanding head coach? You believe that he is a terrific practice and game coach whose decisions, planning, strategies, substitutions and in-game adjustments are the stuff of greatness?
I think mubuzz and mattyv1908 are seeing the truth here. Others, no.
The guy has had one sub par season in his six at MU. Why don't you withold judgement until he strings back to back clunkers? For now, Buzz has a pass in my book. He has an outstanding record in his six seasons at Marquette. This year was a major disappoint for sure, but don't be suprised to see him rebound next year. Nobody is more pissed at this season than the head coach.
-
If Buzz would sh1t can those baby blues that wouldn't be happening
And there's also the New Scoop Challenge.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021)
-
And there's also the New Scoop Challenge.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021)
That made me chuckle.
-
So most who have replied here agree that Buzz Williams is the real deal? An outstanding head coach? You believe that he is a terrific practice and game coach whose decisions, planning, strategies, substitutions and in-game adjustments are the stuff of greatness?
I think mubuzz and mattyv1908 are seeing the truth here. Others, no.
The role of the head coach is to lead and delegate... in-game strategy, recruiting, practice, etc. is mostly left to the assistant coaches. As the coach, you have to hire the right assistants, but let's give some credit where it's ultimately due.
In essence, you're putting way too much focus on attributing the purported strengths and weaknesses of multiple individuals to one person. If that's your method of evaluation, you're certainly entitled to that and I've got no problem with it (provided you aren't Bill Cords).
-
Coaching at Marquette is not an easy job and I think he's had five really good years and one bad one. We don't get blue chip recruits the way Duke, Kentucky, etc... You have to be able to coach up mid level talent to compete at the highest level, and I think that as others have pointed out, Buzz has done a good job with that difficult task.
This season was tough, but at the end of the day Buzz didn't miss a single free throw, open jumper, layup, etc... I would have liked to see us go to the younger guys in a lot of the games to give them a chance, but I don't know...maybe it's the cock-eyed optimist in me...I just have to believe that Buzz (or any coach) makes his decisions based on what he sees at practice and puts the guys on the floor in the situations that give us the best chance to win. Didn't work out this year. I really think we'll be fine next year.
-
And there's also the New Scoop Challenge.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021)
There we have the Unholy Trinity:
Buzz' Game Coaching + National TV + Baby Blues = Shame and Humiliation
-
In prior years, his adaptability has been a major strong suit. He's won fast, slow, and in-between. The job he did in '09 was incredible, given what they lost the year before. He won big last year with a team that couldn't shoot, because they completely outworked their opponents. Good recruiter, great motivator, good game coach.
On the flip side, I'm not crazy about the way MU has defended under Buzz. They are usually poor with their rotations and closeouts, and struggle with basic zone and man principles. I also have my concerns about how HS players have developed at MU.
On the whole, his record here speaks for itself. He's a good basketball coach, and like any of us has strengths and weaknesses.
-
My comments that started this thread are not only reaction to the just-concluded season, in which Marquette finished 17-15, 9-10.
Marquette basketball teams for years have tended to start games slowly, struggle to take control no matter the competition and play to the level of almost every opponent, including much-inferior teams. This was the case under Coach Crean and has continued under Coach Williams.
It is rare that Marquette blasts out of the blocks and controls a game from the start. And this season’s bizarre starting lineups, much-too-frequent substitutions and the obvious decision to not use certain younger players will always be baffling -- not the stuff of excellent coaching.
-
Next year will determine how good of a coach Buzz can be. He has some serious deficiencies in the lineup and how he resolves those issues will be interesting. MU had a chance to have a signature win/wins this year and did not complete the task. Xavier and Georgetown twice were good, but not good enough. OSU, UW, SDSU, ASU, and NM games to be specific.
The first half of the year without Fischer will be crucial, and I hope it doesn't put MU in a losing funk.
Juan regressed and I believe Buzz saw that by limiting his minutes significantly in last few games. I believe the trend continues.
Taylor is one of the key players, enough of the health issues, he must strive as a PF.
Of course the PG position, that's for another thread, but resolution required please.
Those three aspects are integral and some have advised Buzz is stubborn, so he must conquer that aspect to get the squad back to normalcy. One of this years, a freshman is going to go ballistic and actually start/play significant minutes. I am hoping it is Duane Wilson or Hill.
The BE will not be as strong, with Creighton, Xavier, Georgetown, MU losing key players and the bottom feeders remaining Butler and Depaul. With his limited lineup, let's see if Buzz can produce the squad to win some of those non-conference signature wins, prior to Fischer's return. That will be a measurement of his success. Well, until 2015 season with Stone and the others with two years experience, then the expectations will be thru the roof.
-
In prior years, his adaptability has been a major strong suit. He's won fast, slow, and in-between. The job he did in '09 was incredible, given what they lost the year before. He won big last year with a team that couldn't shoot, because they completely outworked their opponents. Good recruiter, great motivator, good game coach.
On the flip side, I'm not crazy about the way MU has defended under Buzz. They are usually poor with their rotations and closeouts, and struggle with basic zone and man principles. I also have my concerns about how HS players have developed at MU.
On the whole, his record here speaks for itself. He's a good basketball coach, and like any of us has strengths and weaknesses.
I am too lazy to check if there were any changes to the amount of practice allowed in the intervening years from 09-14, but wonder if that played a role.
-
1. The first 5 years of his tenure at MU hold up in pretty rarified air.
2. Winning in the Big East with the shortest team in memory in a high major conference.
3. Winning despite losing Otule and Gardner.
4. In game adjustment catching Boeheim flat-footed. (2013)
5. Showing Brad an end of game defense he had never seen before in Butler II. (2013)
6. 69-39 record in 6 years in the Big East. The 60-30 prior to this season was the best in conference over that 5 year span. Some try to diminish the tournament by calling it luck. You cannot diminish sustained excellence like that stretch.
7. Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8.
8. Waltzing in West Virginia.
9. Winning fast, winning slow, winning shooting lots of 3's, winning without making 3's, winning with good defense, winning with bad defense, winning against Boeheim, Pitino, Bo, JT III, Jay, Huggy, Brad, Calhoun...
10. Showing Xavier a defense they had never thought of in the NCAA tourney. Nice work, Jimmy.
11. Out performing expectations 83% of the time.
-
And there's also the New Scoop Challenge.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34578.msg424021#msg424021)
I forgot about this, so good.
-
My comments that started this thread are not only reaction to the just-concluded season, in which Marquette finished 17-15, 9-10.
Marquette basketball teams for years have tended to start games slowly, struggle to take control no matter the competition and play to the level of almost every opponent, including much-inferior teams. This was the case under Coach Crean and has continued under Coach Williams.
It is rare that Marquette blasts out of the blocks and controls a game from the start. And this season’s bizarre starting lineups, much-too-frequent substitutions and the obvious decision to not use certain younger players will always be baffling -- not the stuff of excellent coaching.
You're living in a college basketball bubble if you think we're the only good college basketball program with some of the problems you described.
-
a) college is a guards game
b) MU lost it's starting PG, and surprisingly to many, their soon-to-be starting #1 and part-time #2
c) MU got in return it's 9th man from last year who got elevated to the starting #2
So yeah....I think he gets a friggin' mulligan.
-
Can't we all just blame this season on LARRY Williams (and probably Pilarz)?
Now that we've cut him loose, we'll find our groove again next year. No more arbitrary rules Buzz has to follow
-
a) college is a guards game
b) MU lost it's starting PG, and surprisingly to many, their soon-to-be starting #1 and part-time #2
c) MU got in return it's 9th man from last year who got elevated to the starting #2
So yeah....I think he gets a friggin' mulligan.
The game changer and best defensive player he ever coached was always going to be his starting point guard...just like he will be next year as well.
-
The game changer and best defensive player he ever coached was always going to be his starting point guard...just like he will be next year as well.
Buzz gets no mulligan next year if Derrick continues to play 30-plus minutes. Simply cannot happen.
-
The guy has had one sub par season in his six at MU. Why don't you withold judgement until he strings back to back clunkers? For now, Buzz has a pass in my book. He has an outstanding record in his six seasons at Marquette. This year was a major disappoint for sure, but don't be suprised to see him rebound next year. Nobody is more pissed at this season than the head coach.
A few years ago we had a nice run in the NCAA tournament, but so-so during the regular season.
I think he's a good coach that does some things great and some things good to very good. His teams never give up, bring great energy, work hard it seems. Defense is a core philosophy, even if it doesn't always materialize on the court. Team seems prepared for most games. Certainly a motivator, is able to make some in game adjustments....though this year the lineups and such were puzzling.
My bigger concerns have been the development of high school players and the lack of emphasis on the PG or shooting positions. That is my own personal bias because that style of basketball appeals to me. Junior was a highly regarded point guard according to the experts, not sure he lived up to that billing. He was good, at times very good, but not sure he was top 8 PG in his class good as some services had him rated. Shooting, we just don't have good shooters and haven't by and large for some time. Great athletes, not necessarily great basketball players.
-
Can't we all just blame this season on LARRY Williams (and probably Pilarz)?
Now that we've cut him loose, we'll find our groove again next year. No more arbitrary rules Buzz has to follow
F uck you guys!
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7AUM5S-owj-FWv769nyDrdjRIoOxl5QQ4l1AcV3XQDFPXf9QD)
-
A few years ago we had a nice run in the NCAA tournament, but so-so during the regular season.
I think he's a good coach that does some things great and some things good to very good. His teams never give up, bring great energy, work hard it seems. Defense is a core philosophy, even if it doesn't always materialize on the court. Team seems prepared for most games. Certainly a motivator, is able to make some in game adjustments....though this year the lineups and such were puzzling.
My bigger concerns have been the development of high school players and the lack of emphasis on the PG or shooting positions. That is my own personal bias because that style of basketball appeals to me. Junior was a highly regarded point guard according to the experts, not sure he lived up to that billing. He was good, at times very good, but not sure he was top 8 PG in his class good as some services had him rated. Shooting, we just don't have good shooters and haven't by and large for some time. Great athletes, not necessarily great basketball players.
Are you referring to outside shooters or commenting more on efficiency? I agree either way, just curious.
-
F uck you guys!
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7AUM5S-owj-FWv769nyDrdjRIoOxl5QQ4l1AcV3XQDFPXf9QD)
Nice job photoshopping his ring finger out of the shot.
-
The guy has had one sub par season in his six at MU. Why don't you withold judgement until he strings back to back clunkers? For now, Buzz has a pass in my book. He has an outstanding record in his six seasons at Marquette. This year was a major disappoint for sure, but don't be suprised to see him rebound next year. Nobody is more pissed at this season than the head coach.
17-15 in his most current effort.
-
F uck you guys!
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7AUM5S-owj-FWv769nyDrdjRIoOxl5QQ4l1AcV3XQDFPXf9QD)
We never missed the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 with Larry at the helm. Coincidence...I think not. ;)
-
Are you referring to outside shooters or commenting more on efficiency? I agree either way, just curious.
Outside shooters primarily.
-
A few years ago we had a nice run in the NCAA tournament, but so-so during the regular season.
I think he's a good coach that does some things great and some things good to very good. His teams never give up, bring great energy, work hard it seems. Defense is a core philosophy, even if it doesn't always materialize on the court. Team seems prepared for most games. Certainly a motivator, is able to make some in game adjustments....though this year the lineups and such were puzzling.
My bigger concerns have been the development of high school players and the lack of emphasis on the PG or shooting positions. That is my own personal bias because that style of basketball appeals to me. Junior was a highly regarded point guard according to the experts, not sure he lived up to that billing. He was good, at times very good, but not sure he was top 8 PG in his class good as some services had him rated. Shooting, we just don't have good shooters and haven't by and large for some time. Great athletes, not necessarily great basketball players.
I'll point out that Junior had a major injury in the fall of his freshman year. That certainly impacted his career trajectory. How much? I'm not sure, but I have zero doubts that it did. (Also, he had a season-ending injury [foot] in December of.. 2007.... pretty sure it was the 2007-08 season.. high school.)
Junior also was not known for his shooting when being recruited. I get your personal bias, but I don't think in this case it was a "lack of emphasis on PG", rather Buzz brought in a PG who wasn't going to be a great outside scoring threat.
Duane Wilson on the other hand.. he can score and hit from outside. Noskowiak... he can score and shoot from outside. Derrick? He can't. So, I suppose you can look forward to that.
The lineups this year I can't tell you anything. Bizarre and they hurt the team relative to wins and losses.
Sustained success is difficult - even for the blue bloods. MU had a great run of consecutive tourney appearances. But we should be disappointed with the season overall - this team had plenty of talent and should have been a tourney team.
But years like this do happen. Forward we go.
-
Agree, forward we go and I'm very much looking forward to seeing some kids on the floor that can stretch the defense. Be that Mr. Wilson, Mr. Nosiak, or whomever. It will be a welcome site.
True on Junior as well.
-
The guy has had one sub par season in his six at MU. Why don't you withold judgement until he strings back to back clunkers? For now, Buzz has a pass in my book. He has an outstanding record in his six seasons at Marquette. This year was a major disappoint for sure, but don't be suprised to see him rebound next year. Nobody is more pissed at this season than the head coach.
Yep
Al Davis of the Raiders lost it as he got older, but his "Just Win Baby" quote pretty much sums up sports, with the caveat though that college coaches also should help develop as many young kids into quality young men as possible by the time they leave a program.
Sure, there have been things over the years that Buzz has done coaching wise which frustrated me at times, but the bottom line is that he's won a lot of games and has had pretty good success in the NCAA Tournament. That overall success is by far what really matters most, not how he goes about winning those games, regardless if some fans disagree with stuff like who he gives minutes to or what players he recruits/doesn't recruit.
So until the day comes that say missing the NCAA Tournament becomes more of norm than aberration and other programs stop trying to hire him away, i'll continue being both very glad he's the Marquette coach and believe that he's clearly an above average overall head coach. Selective antidotes about why some fans don't care for his offensive/defensive systems or not recruiting X type of players won't ever trump the bottom line for me.
-
Agree, forward we go and I'm very much looking forward to seeing some kids on the floor that can stretch the defense. Be that Mr. Wilson, Mr. Nosiak, or whomever. It will be a welcome site.
True on Junior as well.
Mr. Nosiak? Who's he?
-
Mr. Nosiak? Who's he?
I think he was referring to Nick Noskowiak
-
1. The first 5 years of his tenure at MU hold up in pretty rarified air.
2. Winning in the Big East with the shortest team in memory in a high major conference.
3. Winning despite losing Otule and Gardner.
4. In game adjustment catching Boeheim flat-footed. (2013)
5. Showing Brad an end of game defense he had never seen before in Butler II. (2013)
6. 69-39 record in 6 years in the Big East. The 60-30 prior to this season was the best in conference over that 5 year span. Some try to diminish the tournament by calling it luck. You cannot diminish sustained excellence like that stretch.
7. Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8.
8. Waltzing in West Virginia.
9. Winning fast, winning slow, winning shooting lots of 3's, winning without making 3's, winning with good defense, winning with bad defense, winning against Boeheim, Pitino, Bo, JT III, Jay, Huggy, Brad, Calhoun...
10. Showing Xavier a defense they had never thought of in the NCAA tourney. Nice work, Jimmy.
11. Out performing expectations 83% of the time.
12. Being an excellent representative of the program. The Buzz's bunch stuff is unmatched by any other coach I know.
Excellent list Tower. The bold line is the one that stands out to me the most. He outcoached the likes of Boeheim, Pitino, Wright, Dixon, JT3, etc for 5 years straight. That is pretty damn good.
Buzz absolutely gets a mulligan on this year. Hell, he gets another mulligan after this one. He has earned it. But I doubt he will need it anytime soon.
-
12. Being an excellent representative of the program. The Buzz's bunch stuff is unmatched by any other coach I know.
Excellent list Tower. The bold line is the one that stands out to me the most. He outcoached the likes of Boeheim, Pitino, Wright, Dixon, JT3, etc for 5 years straight. That is pretty damn good.
Buzz absolutely gets a mulligan on this year. Hell, he gets another mulligan after this one. He has earned it. But I doubt he will need it anytime soon.
I don't like the term mulligan in this reference. That implies that this year's results are forgotten. This year's team needs to be taken in context, but in order to do so one must first view his early tenure in context as well.
I have yet to see one poster here think he should be replaced.
In my opinion, I don't think you can give Buzz significant credit for his first season with a talented, senior laden team someone else recruited and developed for three seasons. The only credit he should get for that year is that he didn't blow it.
His second season he still had Hayward (crean recuit), although his patch work with the rest of the roster was great. Still, his senior leader was a guy he didn't bring into the program.
Essentially Buzz has now had 4 complete seasons with entirely his team. His transfers (Butler, Crowder, DJO, Buycks, Jamil, Lockett) have been his most successful players with the exceptions being Vander Blue and Davante Gardner. All of those transfers are now no longer with the program beginning next season. There is a difference between coaching a 19 year old out of highschool and a 20-21 year old with another couple years of maturity/development/strength. It does concern me what is to come the next couple of seasons.
I would think Buzz has earned a six year honest evaluation, but to me that means that six year stretch should run through 2015-16 as he would deserve all the credit and all the blame as those six years would truly be his vision of the program he wants to run.
To anyone who questions this logic here's a question. Did Tubby Smith win a championship at UK because he's a great coach or because he had great players recruited by Rick Pitino?
-
I don't like the term mulligan
I read The President's Club by Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy. When newly elected Bill Clinton and Jerry Ford first met, the chosen venue was the links. The authors relate how Clinton took a mulligan on every hole, sometimes more than one, and routinely picked up 10' putts as gimmes. The straight-laced Ford was appalled by this behavior and completely disapproved of the man holding his former office.
Of course, the two found their cadence and established a superb relationship but Ford never golfed with Clinton ever again.
-
He cares about his kids as people first; players second.
-
he can walk from Milwaukee to Muskegon
-
Mr. Nosiak? Who's he?
(http://i.imgur.com/kJmEhRU.png) ?
-
I don't like the term mulligan in this reference. That implies that this year's results are forgotten. This year's team needs to be taken in context, but in order to do so one must first view his early tenure in context as well.
Maybe mulligan isn't the best term. But I would say he has earned 2-3 "bad years" before he is on the hot seat
-
The game changer and best defensive player he ever coached was always going to be his starting point guard...just like he will be next year as well.
You may be correct but if you are there will be many unhappy campers on this board which is a minor issue. A good role player but starting point? Somehow he will need to learn to shoot or more than this board will be questioning someone's judgment. ❓❔❓❔❓❔❓❔❓
-
Maybe mulligan isn't the best term. But I would say he has earned 2-3 "bad years" before he is on the hot seat
Man the slurping never stops. "2-3 bad years." Why? Why? He gets paid 2.5 million per year, has the 8th highest basketball budget, a jet to recruit. With those perks, his earnings are already taken care of. He gets no slack for 2-3 bad years. Some people really need to take a bite of reality.
-
Man the slurping never stops. "2-3 bad years." Why? Why? He gets paid 2.5 million per year, has the 8th highest basketball budget, a jet to recruit. With those perks, his earnings are already taken care of. He gets no slack for 2-3 bad years. Some people really need to take a bite of reality.
Name a single program that has ever fired a coach with Buzz's level of success after 2 bad seasons. My guess is that there might be a few blue bloods who have done it. But blue blood we are not.
What coach would ever want to work for us if they knew that after 2 bad seasons he's getting the axe, no matter the success he had before?
We didn't fire Crean after the 04-05 season, you really think we would fire Buzz?
-
My respect for Buzz as a coach actually grew this year.
Getting 9 wins with a D II pg and sg, uncompetitive sf, and a one trick pony pf was miraculous.
Now his recruiting......
-
Name a single program that has ever fired a coach with Buzz's level of success after 2 bad seasons. My guess is that there might be a few blue bloods who have done it. But blue blood we are not.
What coach would ever want to work for us if they knew that after 2 bad seasons he's getting the axe, no matter the success he had before?
We didn't fire Crean after the 04-05 season, you really think we would fire Buzz?
Nobody deserves to be allowed 2-3 bad years. You are already setting up foe next year. If so that will be two. Then what? Keep kissing the heiny?
-
Nobody deserves to be allowed 2-3 bad years. You are already setting up foe next year. If so that will be two. Then what? Keep kissing the heiny?
If nobody deserves 2-3 bad years after the level of success Buzz has had then you should have no problem answering my question.
Please name a program that has fired a coach who has had the same level of success as Buzz after 2 bad seasons.
-
If nobody deserves 2-3 bad years after the level of success Buzz has had then you should have no problem answering my question.
Please name a program that has fired a coach who has had the same level of success as Buzz after 2 bad seasons.
TAMU, let's not pretend like Buzz has done anything fantastic. He's been to a couple of sweet 16's and an elite 8.
He absolutely should not be fired, but if he were to miss the NCAAT next season his seat should begin to heat up.
I'll clarify. His team has played to their NCAA seed line twice, twice he exceeded it and once he failed to reach it. His team's average seed in his five trips to the NCAAT has been a 7 seed. Those are not fantastic numbers. Good but not great.
-
He absolutely should not be fired, but if he were to miss the NCAAT next season his seat should begin to heat up.
Sounds fair to me. If it ever got to three craptacular seasons in a row, the program spends way too much money these days to be that bad. Hell, we were on at least one "worst ROI" list as recently as last year due to all the money pumped into the program. Nobody had issue since we felt our success was pretty good, even if it was disproportionately poor given our investment relative to other programs.
-
I too was very impressed with Buzz as a coach the first five years. But, this year has been so frustrating that I question his logic as a coach. He has made huge blunders and poor decisions on players' playing times and it seems that he has impeded player development. I am totally puzzled by Buzz's poor performance this year.
-
TAMU, let's not pretend like Buzz has done anything fantastic. He's been to a couple of sweet 16's and an elite 8.
He absolutely should not be fired, but if he were to miss the NCAAT next season his seat should begin to heat up.
2nd line I agree with. I said 2-3 bad years before being fired. 2 bad years in a row=seat heating up a little. 3=potentially fired.
1st line I don't. 2 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 is huge for a program like ours. This isn't the 70s anymore. Before Buzz we had Crean's Final Four and what? 2 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 is a huge accomplishment in a three year span. Plus, Buzz's first 5 years in the BEast featured us going 60-30 in conference play. That was the BEST RECORD IN THE BEAST DURING THOSE 5 YEARS. Put simply, he did better than Boeheim, Pitino, Calhoun, Brey, Dixon, Wright, JT3, etc could during those 5 years. That is extremely impressive.
We are not at a Blue Blood. We cannot turn up our nose at a 5 year span that included 5 tournament appearances, 3 sweet sixteens, 1 elite 8, and BEast regular season championship and say it "wasn't anything fantastic."
Expectations. Keep them realistic. (To clarify, Buzz did not meet my expectations for this season. So he is not infallible. But so for he is 5-1 on meeting my season expectations so I'm willing to stick with him)
-
I don't know if Buzz is a great coach.
Heading into this year, I thought he was an upgrade over Crean for three reasons:
--He's a better person (see Buzz's Bunch)
--He's a better recruiter
--He makes better in-game and halftime adjustments
The jury is still out on his most recent recruits. Potential is still there, but some have not panned out yet. You can't foresee injuries, but what the hell happened with JJJ?
Not overjoyed with the in-game or halftime adjustments this year. To say nothing of the inbounds plays. Other teams occasionally have trouble inbounding, but not with the regularity that I see with MU.
The players had a bad year, the coach and assistants had a bad year. Very disappointing. But I'd still take Buzz over Crean any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
-
Not overjoyed with the in-game or halftime adjustments this year. To say nothing of the inbounds plays. Other teams occasionally have trouble inbounding, but not with the regularity that I see with MU.
A lot of those issues, especially at the end of games, comes from having a sub-50% FT shooter at point guard. You have to hide him somewhere, so he inbounds the ball. He's short, so a big guarding the pass makes it very difficult.
-
2nd line I agree with. I said 2-3 bad years before being fired. 2 bad years in a row=seat heating up a little. 3=potentially fired.
1st line I don't. 2 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 is huge for a program like ours. This isn't the 70s anymore. Before Buzz we had Crean's Final Four and what? 2 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 is a huge accomplishment in a three year span. Plus, Buzz's first 5 years in the BEast featured us going 60-30 in conference play. That was the BEST RECORD IN THE BEAST DURING THOSE 5 YEARS. Put simply, he did better than Boeheim, Pitino, Calhoun, Brey, Dixon, Wright, JT3, etc could during those 5 years. That is extremely impressive.
We are not at a Blue Blood. We cannot turn up our nose at a 5 year span that included 5 tournament appearances, 3 sweet sixteens, 1 elite 8, and BEast regular season championship and say it "wasn't anything fantastic."
Expectations. Keep them realistic. (To clarify, Buzz did not meet my expectations for this season. So he is not infallible. But so for he is 5-1 on meeting my season expectations so I'm willing to stick with him)
The runs are only huge to this year. This year completely wipes out the past. Would not say that if we had made the dance. But the worse record in 13 years and closing out with 4 straight losses to 17-15 is where we are at, so please forget about talking about what Buzz did before. What the hell did he do this year?
-
The runs are only huge to this year. This year completely wipes out the past. Would not say that if we had made the dance. But the worse record in 13 years and closing out with 4 straight losses to 17-15 is where we are at, so please forget about talking about what Buzz did before. What the hell did he do this year?
Willie, you have yet to answer my question. Please name a program that has fired a coach who has had the same amount of success as Buzz after two bad seasons.
Again, I think you may be able to find a blue blood who has done it. But I really think the list will be extremely small.
But I've asked twice and you haven't had an answer. All I've heard is "one more bad season and he should should be fired." I'm beginning to think you can't find one. If that's the case, why the hell would Marquette do something that no other program would do?
And I can find you plenty of examples of coaches who have had awful seasons who have recovered and been fine the next.
-
I'll clarify. His team has played to their NCAA seed line twice, twice he exceeded it and once he failed to reach it. His team's average seed in his five trips to the NCAAT has been a 7 seed. Those are not fantastic numbers. Good but not great.
This simplistic statement is very disappointing coming from a stats guy like you. Last year we had roughly a 10% chance to make the Elite 8. 2012 about a 38% chance to reach the Sweet 16. 2011 about a 14% chance to reach the Sweet 16. Three years with his own players that's a far cry better than good.
Years one and two (with TC's holdovers) he won the game he was favored in (Utah St) and lost as a dog (Missouri) and as a pick em (Washington).
-
This simplistic statement is very disappointing coming from a stats guy like you. Last year we had roughly a 10% chance to make the Elite 8. 2012 about a 38% chance to reach the Sweet 16. 2011 about a 14% chance to reach the Sweet 16. Three years with his own players that's a far cry better than good.
Years one and two (with TC's holdovers) he won the game he was favored in (Utah St) and lost as a dog (Missouri) and as a pick em (Washington).
Lenny, how is a 6-11 matchup a pick em game? That's not factual in any way.
And my comment needs to be taken in context of who it was sent to. That's not saying anything bad about TAMU, as I really like him as a poster, it's just that he has a way about verbalizing things in the rosiest way possible.
I understand upsets in the NCAAT happen (see Georgetown), but playing to seed line really is the bench mark when looking at tournament success for a given year. In that area Buzz is +1 in five trips to the tournament.
I think the elite 8 is an accomplishment, but what I wouldn't label anything Buzz has done in the tournament as special unless that included a final four.
A sweet 16 is my benchmark to a successful season.
A final four is my benchmark to a truly great year.
And while I do think Willie can be negative, he makes a point in regards to the amount of money the school spends on its basketball program. The university doesn't spend like a school thrilled to just make the tournament. We shouldn't have less expectations than the university.
But no Buzz should not be fired. If he misses the NCAAT next year I'd think the seat should begin heating up and rightfully so.
-
And my comment needs to be taken in context of who it was sent to. That's not saying anything bad about TAMU, as I really like him as a poster, it's just that he has a way about verbalizing things in the rosiest way possible.
I've been called worse
A sweet 16 is my benchmark to a successful season.
A final four is my benchmark to a truly great year.
So in your opinion, Marquette has had 16 successful seasons, 11 of which occurred before the tournament expanded to 64. And only 3 truly great ones 2 of which occurred before the tournament expanded to 64. And by extension we have had 50+ unsuccessful seasons.
I didn't realize our basketball program was 16-60 in terms of being successful in a season.
Expectations folks, have reasonable ones. Buzz has gotten us three Sweet 16s in the past four years. That's as many as the previous 32 seasons. It took 6 different coaches to get those three sweet sixteens. Buzz got them himself. He has earned a bad season. It happens to every coach.
Getting to the Sweet 16 is not easy and is certainly not a reasonable standard on which to judge the season.
-
I've been called worse
So in your opinion, Marquette has had 16 successful seasons, 11 of which occurred before the tournament expanded to 64. And only 3 truly great ones 2 of which occurred before the tournament expanded to 64. And by extension we have had 50+ unsuccessful seasons.
I didn't realize our basketball program was 16-60 in terms of being successful in a season.
Expectations folks, have reasonable ones. Buzz has gotten us three Sweet 16s in the past four years. That's as many as the previous 32 seasons. It took 6 different coaches to get those three sweet sixteens. Buzz got them himself. He has earned a bad season. It happens to every coach.
Getting to the Sweet 16 is not easy and is certainly not a reasonable standard on which to judge the season.
I'm not being disrespectful at all. I enjoy your posts.
The round of 16 separates the men from the boys.
Please don't ignore the first time I've ever posted something crediting Willie. Marquette spends a lot of money on mens basketball. More money than to simply be happy with winning seasons and early exits from the tournament. Perhaps you should align your expectations with the dollars spent on the program as there appears to be a disconnect.
Perhaps the money spent on the program indicates that those spending the money have greater expectations for the program and therefore the bar is higher than you currently see it. Could that possibly be the case?
-
Willie, you have yet to answer my question. Please name a program that has fired a coach who has had the same amount of success as Buzz after two bad seasons.
Again, I think you may be able to find a blue blood who has done it. But I really think the list will be extremely small.
But I've asked twice and you haven't had an answer. All I've heard is "one more bad season and he should should be fired." I'm beginning to think you can't find one. If that's the case, why the hell would Marquette do something that no other program would do?
And I can find you plenty of examples of coaches who have had awful seasons who have recovered and been fine the next.
Slurp, slurp. I have never said fire him. I do not get the Hosannas you and others throw at the guy, especially after such an abysmal season. Look at the salary, perks and resources the guy has. This season was not even average.
You are the one that keeps looking for a reason to fire him. I am looking for a decent season, not the crap job Buzz did this year. And all the excuses in China offer nothing for this year, other than he did not coach to the expectations or what he is receiving--which is not a good ROI.
-
OK, who, that MU could realistically land for similar money is BETTER?
-
Slurp, slurp. I have never said fire him. I do not get the Hosannas you and others throw at the guy, especially after such an abysmal season. Look at the salary, perks and resources the guy has. This season was not even average.
You are the one that keeps looking for a reason to fire him. I am looking for a decent season, not the crap job Buzz did this year. And all the excuses in China offer nothing for this year, other than he did not coach to the expectations or what he is receiving--which is not a good ROI.
Got it, you can't name one
-
Coach Williams is a very good coach because..?
-
I'm not being disrespectful at all. I enjoy your posts.
I honestly didn't think you were. Your "rosy" comment actually made me smile. And I am well aware of my status as the board optimist.
Please don't ignore the first time I've ever posted something crediting Willie. Marquette spends a lot of money on mens basketball. More money than to simply be happy with winning seasons and early exits from the tournament. Perhaps you should align your expectations with the dollars spent on the program as there appears to be a disconnect.
Perhaps the money spent on the program indicates that those spending the money have greater expectations for the program and therefore the bar is higher than you currently see it. Could that possibly be the case?
I wouldn't ignore anything Willie says. When he doesn't get sidetracked by telling everyone to go slurp something, he is a very solid poster.
I agree that the money spent is a good indicator of expectations. What I don't agree with is using the singular use of the Sweet 16 as a benchmark. This is not how athletic departments operate.
Coaches and ADs make a list of goals at the beginning of the season. They make goals that are unrealistic to teams to. For example, I know for a fact that Buzz writes win the national championship on every goal list.
These list are long and include things like: Get to the Sweet Sixteen, make the NCAA tourney, win the BEast tourney, win the BEast regular season, finish in the top half of the conference, have a 20 win season, beat Wisconsin, win our holiday tournament, recruit a strong freshmen class, represent the university well, etc.
ADs judge coaches on all these things when determining a successful season. Unfortunately this season, Buzz failed to complete most of these goals. It was a bad season. But it was his first.
You asked me to think about the money. Looking at the top 25 paid coaches, 6 of them were in the BEast with Buzz for the first 5 seasons. The fact that Buzz's 60-30 conference record during that stretch is better than every single one of them, including Pitino who makes almost twice as much as BUzz, tells me that he is giving us plenty of ROI. Buzz pays for himself. Donations and admission have been at an all time high during his coaching tenure.
-
matty v is not a 'stats guy'.
Lenny, how is a 6-11 matchup a pick em game? That's not factual in any way.
A 6 vs. 11 can be anything. Take last year's tournament. An 11 was a solid favorite over a 6 and won. (Minnesota over UCLA. Would have bet on it if the 6-seed was the favorite... but 11-seed Gophers were -3.)
-
Got it, you can't name one
And you can't come to grips with this season and Buzz's abysmal failure. I have never said he should be fired.
Goy it--don't need to answer your lame question. Slurp, slurp to the ignore button.
-
Coach Williams is a very good coach because..?
...he masterminded a 17-15 season with no dance card received.
-
matty v is not a 'stats guy'.
A 6 vs. 11 can be anything. Take last year's tournament. An 11 was a solid favorite over a 6 and won. (Minnesota over UCLA. Would have bet on it if the 6-seed was the favorite... but 11-seed Gophers were -3.)
Jay Bee -
Your the perfect storm when hyperbole and self smugness breed. Never saying anything meaningful yourself, yet unintelligently responding with unwarranted narcissism.
The moderators would do the forum a favor to permanently ignore you that way you can revel in your overinflated sense of self worth, arguing incessantly with your own posts which do nothing to expound your opinion or shed light on your dissent.
We get it. You'd tune into your own radio program if you had the chance. Now can you please actually contribute anything of substance or do you find that doing so exposes your lack of critical thought?
-
- He knows and tries to understand his kids (and their families) on more than just the basketball level
- He's modest (not a blowhard like I4)
- He's eccentric...and admits it
- He tries to surround himself with people who can support him and not necessarily those who will become branches added to his coaching tree
- He saves the foul language for practice
- He doesn't name drop
- His attention to detail
-
Jay Bee -
Your the perfect storm when hyperbole and self smugness breed. Never saying anything meaningful yourself, yet unintelligently responding with unwarranted narcissism.
The moderators would do the forum a favor to permanently ignore you that way you can revel in your overinflated sense of self worth, arguing incessantly with your own posts which do nothing to expound your opinion or shed light on your dissent.
We get it. You'd tune into your own radio program if you had the chance. Now can you please actually contribute anything of substance or do you find that doing so exposes your lack of critical thought?
Just so JayBee doesn't have to toot his own horn, he does make insightful comments on high school recruits. I don't follow the high school circuit, but I do see posters regularly asking for his opinion on some kid at Saint XYZ Prep. He provides insight on our recruits, our potential recruits, as well as recruits at other BE schools.
-
Jay Bee -
Your the perfect storm when hyperbole and self smugness breed. Never saying anything meaningful yourself, yet unintelligently responding with unwarranted narcissism.
The moderators would do the forum a favor to permanently ignore you that way you can revel in your overinflated sense of self worth, arguing incessantly with your own posts which do nothing to expound your opinion or shed light on your dissent.
We get it. You'd tune into your own radio program if you had the chance. Now can you please actually contribute anything of substance or do you find that doing so exposes your lack of critical thought?
Settle down Buckwheat.
-
Coach Williams is a great coach because....?
Answer: Because he doesn't think he is...
That's why.
-
Lenny, how is a 6-11 matchup a pick em game? That's not factual in any way.
Jay Bee has already spoken to this, but here goes. A team's seeding, more often than not, is indicative of which team is favored. Teams seeded on the 1 through 4 lines have always (to my knowledge) been favored versus the 13s through 16s. After that, pretty much anything goes. This year (today, actually) #11 seeded Tennessee is a 4 point FAVORITE over #6 seeded UMASS. Louisville is a #4 seed this year but would be a FAVORITE over 11 of the 12 teams seeded above them and a pick em against Florida. Assuming that the seed number (or even a team's ranking) determines who is favored indicates a basic lack of understanding on your part. Not trying to be a dick but that is unequivocally a fact.
-
I think the elite 8 is an accomplishment, but what I wouldn't label anything Buzz has done in the tournament as special unless that included a final four.
A sweet 16 is my benchmark to a successful season.
A final four is my benchmark to a truly great year.
You are a tough grader. By your standards, TC had 1 great year and 8 unsuccessful ones. Even Al had only 2 great years and more unsuccessful seasons than successful ones. I think you have Marquette confused with Kansas or North Carolina.
-
And you can't come to grips with this season and Buzz's abysmal failure. I have never said he should be fired.
Goy it--don't need to answer your lame question. Slurp, slurp to the ignore button.
WILLIE PUT ME ON IGNORE!!!!!!!
(http://i.imgur.com/HPj4EKF.gif)
-
And you can't come to grips with this season and Buzz's abysmal failure. I have never said he should be fired.
In case you can see me. You are right, you never said he should be fired. But when I said he gets 2-3 bad seasons (including this one) before he's on the hot seat, you quoted me, accused me of slurping, and said it was ridiculous. I took that to mean that you think 2-3 bad seasons is too much of a leash for Buzz and he should be fired before that.
If you explain what you meant, maybe we could find some common ground.
-
I have had many doubts about Coach Williams throughout his tenure at Marquette.
Now I am left to wonder what his plans, strategies and schemes have been throughout his years at Marquette.
I cannot fathom what the good folks at Virginia Tech see in Buzz or are expecting of him.
-
WILLIE PUT ME ON IGNORE!!!!!!!
(http://i.imgur.com/HPj4EKF.gif)
Hey TAMU--how has all that slurping worked out for you? Not in your wildest dreams? The neverending nightmare continues. Start row eating.
Look on the optimistic side---maybe we will get an honest and sincere guy this time that does not fill up the airwaves with slop. I, for one, hope we do.
-
I have had many doubts about Coach Williams throughout his tenure at Marquette.
Now I am left to wonder what his plans, strategies and schemes have been throughout his years at Marquette.
I cannot fathom what the good folks at Virginia Tech see in Buzz or are expecting of him.
I know he hardly ever won on national television, right?