NFC North / NFL Thread 2018-19

[MU B2002]

Fantasy question for those who follow it better than I do...

Cam vs. Baltimore, or Goff vs. The Pack?

I'm leaning Goff, but want to make sure that's not totally due to my inherent Packers skepticism.

Baltimore has been one of the top Defenses in the NFL season.  GB is not.  Goff at home should light up vs the Packers.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Baltimore has been one of the top Defenses in the NFL season.  GB is not.  Goff at home should light up vs the Packers.

Agree but the Rams will also hand it to Gurley Man more often to keep AR off the field.

[MU82]

This from the Charlotte Observer:

Since he was drafted in 2011, Newton is one of just four QBs to have 17 game-winning drives, joining Tom Brady, Joe Flacco and Andrew Luck.

Rivera was asked if Newton is overlooked when compared to a player such as Aaron Rodgers, who has 14 game-winning drives in that span.

"I think he gets overlooked because of his style of play. It's not a typical style. He runs the ball a lot. He's not a pure, pure pocket passer, although there are elements of his game where he plays very well from the pocket. He's good on the move. I think the success he has in the fourth quarter with the comebacks is a lot about his desire and wanting to win."

This from me:

Happy to have Cam as my team's QB.

[wadesworld]

I’ll take a QB who is simply ahead the entire 4th quarter more often.

[MU82]

I’ll take a QB who is simply ahead the entire 4th quarter more often.

Nobody said Cam was better than Rodgers ... though he did get the best of Rodgers, who wasn't able to complete the 4th quarter comeback last season.

They have won the exact same number of Super Bowls since 2011. Both did fail to win one after a 15-1 season, but at least one of them got to the Super Bowl!

And since 2012, Panthers are 62-29-1 with 3 division titles, a wild card and a Super Bowl appearances; Packers are 61-39-2 with 4 division titles, a wild card and no Super Bowl appearances.

FWIW ... which is nuthin' if you don't win it all.

I didn't say I'd take Cam over Rodgers. All I said is I'm happy to have Cam as my team's QB. Which I am.

Let me know when your guy wins the SB, and I'll do the same when my guy does.

[wadesworld]

Nobody said Cam was better than Rodgers ... though he did get the best of Rodgers, who wasn't able to complete the 4th quarter comeback last season.

They have won the exact same number of Super Bowls since 2011. Both did fail to win one after a 15-1 season, but at least one of them got to the Super Bowl!

And since 2012, Panthers are 62-29-1 with 3 division titles, a wild card and a Super Bowl appearances; Packers are 61-39-2 with 4 division titles, a wild card and no Super Bowl appearances.

FWIW ... which is nuthin' if you don't win it all.

I didn't say I'd take Cam over Rodgers. All I said is I'm happy to have Cam as my team's QB. Which I am.

Let me know when your guy wins the SB, and I'll do the same when my guy does.

Sure thing. “My guy” won it in 2011. I’ll wait on “yours.”

[MU82]

Sure thing. “My guy” won it in 2011. I’ll wait on “yours.”

I'm looking forward to Cam joining Rodgers on that list, along with Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Nick Foles and Jeff Hostetler.

[GGGG]

I'm looking forward to Cam joining Rodgers on that list, along with Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Nick Foles and Jeff Hostetler.

Just stop. Rodgers was dominant that post season. The guys above just managed the game around them.

I like Cam. Glad you do too. But you’re straying into fanboy territory here.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Back to the question on Week 8 Fantasy Football QB starts, not these Scoop meanderings.  I use this tool as a first step:

Goff at 98% over Cam.  (Also, AR at 98% over Cam.) The main decider is Baltimore's defense.

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/start/cam-newton-jared-goff.php

[DegenerateDish]

There might as well be a Cam Newton Pissing Match Thread at this point.

[WarriorDad]

FIFY.

Fans don't have that power, it will come from his teammates and coaches, or more importantly from within.

[WarriorDad]

Vick?

Goes all the way back to Joe Gilliam, Vince Evans, etc.

Randall Cunningham predated Vick by 15 years and faced the same stuff.

To be fair, much of the same was said about the likes of Douglass, Elway and Young. They were seen as running QBs ... until they either proved themselves as passers (Elway, Young) or didn't (Douglass).

But yes, I think when the casual (and some not-so-casual) fan sees a black QB, the knee-jerk reaction is "running QB."

Should Doug Williams be considered a running QB?  Warren Moon?  Culpepper?   Hell, Greg Landry has more rushing yards as a QB than most of the black QBs.   I think some people have predisposed positions on various topics.

[wadesworld]

Fans don't have that power, it will come from his teammates and coaches, or more importantly from within.

But the fans had the power to win the 2016 WS? Got it.

[wadesworld]

I think some people have predisposed positions on various topics.

Not you though, Chicos. Not you. Lol!

[MU82]

Should Doug Williams be considered a running QB?  Warren Moon?  Culpepper?   Hell, Greg Landry has more rushing yards as a QB than most of the black QBs.   I think some people have predisposed positions on various topics.

I think we actually agree on most of this. Culpepper was a pass-first QB who also could run well before injuries set in. The others were not very big runners. And yes about Landry. Tarkenton, Staubach and Young were more runners than many of the black QBs named, and Elway was early on. The knock on Staubach and Young was that they scrambled too much as opposed to Morton and Montana.

As for your last sentence, however ... pot, meet kettle!

[MU82]

Just stop. Rodgers was dominant that post season. The guys above just managed the game around them.

I like Cam. Glad you do too. But you’re straying into fanboy territory here.

And I like Rodgers very much as a QB. One of my favorite players to watch in the entire NFL. That comeback against the Bears, while playing on one leg, amazing - even by his very lofty standards.

And of course I'm a Cam fan. Damn good QB.

[forgetful]

I’ll take a QB who is simply ahead the entire 4th quarter more often.

You get at the heart of why this is one of the most over-rated stats.  It implies that a person who sits on his ass for three quarters before he shows up, is somehow more valuable than the person who just kicked ass from the coin toss.

I know that is an over generalization, but a purely dominant and elite player will not have opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks. 

[WarriorDad]

But the fans had the power to win the 2016 WS? Got it.

Directly, no, but indirectly provided the energy in the ballpark, yes.  There is a reason why home field advantage is a thing.

Now, when it comes to changing behavior of individuals, the fans may have some degree of sway, but my personal opinion it has to come from within and from his or her mentors, coaches, peers.  One man's opinion.

[WarriorDad]

I think we actually agree on most of this. Culpepper was a pass-first QB who also could run well before injuries set in. The others were not very big runners. And yes about Landry. Tarkenton, Staubach and Young were more runners than many of the black QBs named, and Elway was early on. The knock on Staubach and Young was that they scrambled too much as opposed to Morton and Montana.

As for your last sentence, however ... pot, meet kettle!

We all come with our biases. 

[wadesworld]

Directly, no, but indirectly provided the energy in the ballpark, yes.  There is a reason why home field advantage is a thing.

Now, when it comes to changing behavior of individuals, the fans may have some degree of sway, but my personal opinion it has to come from within and from his or her mentors, coaches, peers.  One man's opinion.

Is it “a thing?” Just off the top of my head, over the last few seasons there have been a few do or die situations. Tie breakers this season, the home team went 1-1 in them. Wild card games this season, the home team went 1-1 in them. Believe we had a single deciding game this postseason and the road team won it. The last 2 World Series have seen the road team win a game 7.

The Red Sox are outscoring their opponents 42-16 and are 5-1 on the road this Post Season.

Then again, maybe road teams just have Chicos on speed dial telling them how to manage the bullpen and that’s why they’re winning?

[wadesworld]

Fans don't have that power, it will come from his teammates and coaches, or more importantly from within.

Bottom line, he is a very good player that I don't care for. If we do sign him, my hope is we can get to his head and change some of things he does. I believe in reformation and a few chances in life, not totally throwing people on the trash pile.  I didn't realize you were such a hardliner.

Lol.

[MU82]

You get at the heart of why this is one of the most over-rated stats.  It implies that a person who sits on his ass for three quarters before he shows up, is somehow more valuable than the person who just kicked ass from the coin toss.

I know that is an over generalization, but a purely dominant and elite player will not have opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks.

I think it is overrated in many ways, too. The stat alone doesn't tell us enough about everything that happened to necessitate a game-winning drive. Did he play poorly for 3+ quarters before figuring things out? Was he in a shoot-out in which neither team's defense could stop the other offense and it was a "last man with the ball wins" thing? Something in between those extremes? The stat is wanting.

Of course, the guy who has the most of these comebacks since 2011 is Tom Brady, who doesn't usually "sit on his ass for three quarters before showing up." Although he did bite the big one for most of the first three quarters of the SB 2 years ago before lighting it up against Atlanta,. that's true.

Given that the two QBs in this discussion have just about the exact same record the last 6 years, and their records are pretty darn good, I don't think either of them has done too much three-quarter ass-sitting.

[WarriorDad]

Is it “a thing?” Just off the top of my head, over the last few seasons there have been a few do or die situations. Tie breakers this season, the home team went 1-1 in them. Wild card games this season, the home team went 1-1 in them. Believe we had a single deciding game this postseason and the road team won it. The last 2 World Series have seen the road team win a game 7.

The Red Sox are outscoring their opponents 42-16 and are 5-1 on the road this Post Season.

Then again, maybe road teams just have Chicos on speed dial telling them how to manage the bullpen and that’s why they’re winning?

In MLB, the home team wins 54.1% of the time.  Yes, home field advantage is real.  Not overwhelming, that is why games are played, but statistically a bump.  How?  Mostly because the home teams tend to get more calls from officials.  They can be influenced by the crowd.  Secondly, because in a game like baseball you have the last ups, you know if you need to go for broke, that has nothing to do with the crowd.

[forgetful]

I think it is overrated in many ways, too. The stat alone doesn't tell us enough about everything that happened to necessitate a game-winning drive. Did he play poorly for 3+ quarters before figuring things out? Was he in a shoot-out in which neither team's defense could stop the other offense and it was a "last man with the ball wins" thing? Something in between those extremes? The stat is wanting.

Of course, the guy who has the most of these comebacks since 2011 is Tom Brady, who doesn't usually "sit on his ass for three quarters before showing up." Although he did bite the big one for most of the first three quarters of the SB 2 years ago before lighting it up against Atlanta,. that's true.

Given that the two QBs in this discussion have just about the exact same record the last 6 years, and their records are pretty darn good, I don't think either of them has done too much three-quarter ass-sitting.

I think the fact that Brady is the leader is problematic for his legacy (personally).  There is zero doubt he has been behind the best offensive line in the NFL for almost his entire career. He has had the best coach in the game.  Had some of the best weapons on offense, and at times a dominating defense.

Why the hell is that team having to make so many 4th quarter comebacks. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Jets are awful.