Starting the New Year with more McDer-ama

[tower912]

1.  MU was in this game because their defense finally woke up.    Not many saw that coming after the first three 3's of the second half. 
2.  Osa has come so far.    38 minutes all of last year.    Spark plug of the team this year.    Still only 6'9.    He will get beat up from time to time.   
3.  Creighton has played two straight really solid defensive games.   
4.  Creighton should have just kept feeding Kalkbrenner in the post.   Every single time until MU doubled him. 
5.   Gotta love the lack of quit in this team.   I wish they would stop digging themselves such a deep hole.   
6.  MU got to 32 deflections.
7.   Remind me again about why some don't like OMP?   Hustle like that with 4 fouls.   He has revealed his character.   
8.  Creighton going zone iced MU in the second OT.   Genius move by Dougie.    I would never play man against MU.   3 pt shooting and all.   
9.  Probably going to be a lot of talk about fouling up 3.    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.    Bit MU in the butt. 
10.   It is going to be OK.    Yes, we don't have studs.    But we have high character fighters.   Some days that will be enough.   Some days it won't.   Sit back.   Relax.   Enjoy the process.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It wasn't just the not fouling up three.  It was the two empty possessions in OT when MU looked to be killing the clock.  Bad offense resulted in poor shot attempts.

Bad day by Shaka at the end there.

[PGsHeroes32]

That isn’t a damned if you do situation.

There’s 3.3 seconds left. Foul the guy.

[DoctorV]

The process needs wins.

Especially gritty home wins.

Or else it’s very hard to enjoy.

[goldeneagle91114]

Tower, I agree with most of what you say. But let’s not start with his “high character” BS. Wojo had teams chalked full of high character Individuals, it doesn’t mean a thing. We need W’s, period.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

That isn’t a damned if you do situation.

There’s 3.3 seconds left. Foul the guy.

Exactly.  Now maybe Oso was supposed to and didn't, but there is no question what you do there.

[Fred Garvin]

Lewis going 4/18 didn't help the game either

[1SE]

No, once he caught and held there was no way CU would get another possession. Not a 6 of 1, half dozen of the.other situation

[Billy Hoyle]

That isn’t a damned if you do situation.

There’s 3.3 seconds left. Foul the guy.

Once he put the ball on the floor that was the perfect time to foul, then it’s under 1.5 seconds left.

We played great defense to get back into the game and take the lead. Someone f’ed up when it mattered the most.

[nyg]

No need for 10 issues, just two.

MU has significant offensive deficiencies and it will bite them the remainder of the year.  Going to be very long BE season. 

O'Connell had ball with 3.3 seconds, he actually dribbled for a second or so, then shot.  Not an immediate catch and shoot where the potential for a shooting foul could have been called. I would say 98% of NCAA coaches would have fouled with that limited time left on clock and the player dribbling.  Thats on Coach Shaka.  Should have been a win. 

[CountryRoads]

Lewis going 4/18 didn't help the game either

4/18 with a terrible attitude for most of the game.

[Goose]

Shaka cost us the win, plain and simple.

[swoopem]

O Max rolling with his guy to the lane and not helping on the 3 was such a bonehead play. Give them anything inside the arc. JUST DONT GIVE UP A 3

Clueless basketball play

[NickelDimer]

Not fouling up 3. Not calling any timeouts in OT when we were soooo tired and forcing bad shots and getting beat off the dribble. Not getting GE in the game down 3. Really bad stuff from Shaka. This one is on him and this is his first bad loss because of it.  This one will hurt all season. This was a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory and pretty inexcusably so

[Fred Garvin]

Absolutely swoop!

[1SE]

O Max rolling with his guy to the lane and not helping on the 3 was such a bonehead play. Give them anything inside the arc. JUST DONT GIVE UP A 3

Clueless basketball play

Great point

[CountryRoads]

Fouling up three is sometimes a really tricky play primarily because you don’t want to foul with too much time left. This was about as clear cut case to foul as possible.

Shaka even called a timeout. I would love to know what he said during that timeout.

[LAZER]

Losing a bunch of close games probably isn’t the culture Shaka intended. Need to get some wins badly.

[Goose]

My only silver lining, I care enough again that I am really pissed off we lost. Another silver lining, Oso and Omax need to play a lot of minutes going forward. Both of them are going to be very good players down the road.

[Uncle Rico]

My only silver lining, I care enough again that I am really pissed off we lost. Another silver lining, Oso and Omax need to play a lot of minutes going forward. Both of them are going to be very good players down the road.

I agree with this. 

[Miss Katie’s]

Shaka cost us the win, plain and simple.

This.  The game was essentially over. 

[skianth16]

Fouling up three is sometimes a really tricky play primarily because you don’t want to foul with too much time left. This was about as clear cut case to foul as possible.

Shaka even called a timeout. I would love to know what he said during that timeout.

I had the exact same conversation at my house. What the heck did he tell the guys? That seemed pretty obvious. No discretion needed on fouling with so little time left. This one's on Shaka.

[PGsHeroes32]

Exactly.  Now maybe Oso was supposed to and didn't, but there is no question what you do there.

Yup. Maybe Oso didn’t do it. But the instruction to Oso 100% needed to be to foul. From where his guy was gonna have to catch the ball. You say foul the moment he dribbles.

[ATL MU Warrior]

O Max rolling with his guy to the lane and not helping on the 3 was such a bonehead play. Give them anything inside the arc. JUST DONT GIVE UP A 3

Clueless basketball play

Yep.  And O Max had played a pretty darn good game to that point. Too bad

[nyg]

I would be shocked if Shaka had actually told a player to foul, he didn't and then Shaka calls him out postgame.  Coaches just don't do that to a player, they eat it. 

Again, MU is stagnant on offense and has been majority of the year.  They just can't put ball in basket, whether threes, short or layups.  Have to score in order to win. 

Kolek was 4 for 14 and is now 7 for last 42 on threes.  He makes some nice passes, but some bad turnovers and horrendous shooting.  Quicker guards, like Nemhard today blew past him today. Not good for a starting point guard.

Lewis was 4 for 18 and his three point percentage also is dismal.  With no outside shot, his NBA potential is non existent.  Yes, one, only one mock service had him listed, all others not even mentioned. 

Thank goodness for Oso going 10 for 12.

[21Jumpstreet]

The process needs wins.

Especially gritty home wins.

Or else it’s very hard to enjoy.

I am a trust the process guy and am also an emotional human. I’m pretty disappointed with this one even though we clawed back from down 17 and playing poorly, we absolutely handed them the game. Terrible decision making all around at the end, I can’t say it was terrible all game as they fought back, but damn I’m a little frustrated. Okay, back to my beer, barefoot, in sunny New Smyrna Beach. Happy New Year Scoop!

[21Jumpstreet]

O Max rolling with his guy to the lane and not helping on the 3 was such a bonehead play. Give them anything inside the arc. JUST DONT GIVE UP A 3

Clueless basketball play

My 15 year old said, put four guys on the perimeter facing the basket and Kur in the lane. Might be unconventional, but he understand you cannot give up a three under any circumstance

[Billy Hoyle]

My only silver lining, I care enough again that I am really pissed off we lost. Another silver lining, Oso and Omax need to play a lot of minutes going forward. Both of them are going to be very good players down the road.

Ellis provided a really good spark to start the comeback but was glued to the bench the rest of the way. I like his energy.

Oso can be a stud. Going to have to keep a few coaches away from him. He and Lewis can be a good team in the post moving forward.

[tower912]

MU should have fouled up 3.

[21Jumpstreet]

MU should have fouled up 3.

We were a split household/bar rail. I said foul, but it never seems to be that easy.

[cheebs09]

We were a split household/bar rail. I said foul, but it never seems to be that easy.

I didn’t think there was enough time, but once he dribbled that’s when we should have done it. I thought it would be a catch and shoot scenario.

[MU82]

OK ... I'll take the contrarian view, at least for argument's sake ...

O'Connell made a darn tough 3 with a 6-9 guy in his face, and it would have been even tougher had O-Max stayed home like he should have.

Also, one thing I've noticed this season so far is that not as many coaches are automatically fouling in that situation. And FWIW (not much), NBA coaches rarely foul up 3.

But ...

If there ever was a foul-up-3 situation, this was pretty much textbook. So either Shaka simply doesn't believe in fouling up 3, or Oso/O-Max didn't get the memo.

Otherwise ...

++ Our offense in the second OT sucked, and personally, I'm much more disappointed about that from Shaka. Our guys looked exhausted, and they got no help from their coach.

++ Shaka needed to find more PT for Elliott. He also probably needed to get Ellis another short run in the 2H, if only to give Kolek a 1-2 minute rest before a TV timeout.

++ Shaka did spark the comeback by going hockey substitution again. The subs didn't pare much of the lead, but it obviously sent a message, and the starters came back strong. BTW, the announcers never even realized Shaka subbed 5-for-5; never once mentioned it.

++ Kuath missed another effen dunk; except for 2 early blocks, he had an invisible game in which he was badly outplayed by the Creighton big. The combination of Oso playing well and us not being able to afford missed dunks from our center might mean a lot more minutes for Oso the rest of the way.

++ Lost the 3-point contest by 18 points. Very difficult to win when that happens. Creighton also attempted almost 3x as many FTs, though their 2H misses at the line helped us a lot.

++ Very active on D after the starters got back in, and that's why we were in position to win. They had a "what the hell do we have to lose" attitude and really played aggressively. Lots of deflections and just plain in-your-face D.

++ Lewis seemed out of it much of the game but I thought he played really well on D and on the boards from midway through the second half through the first OT. We aren't good enough to have our supposed "star" be out of it for as long as he was, though.

++ Kolek had an interesting game. Again bricky from 3, but obviously has a total green light. 6 assists and would have easily had 10+ if we had made some bunnies. 4 TOs, including a couple brain-dead ones. 3 steals and mostly OK man D until he got tired. I know Shaka values him as the "organize the offense" guy, but the coach has to find ways to get the kid a little rest because this is at least the third straight game Kolek didn't have legs at the end.

++ When it looked like we were gonna win, I was like, "We're gonna steal this one, and there's no way we shoulda won this game." But then, at the end, it felt like we had given it away and that there was no way we should have lost.

++ Though I'm a "process" guy when a program has a new coach, not enough talent, not enough experience and zero go-to guys ... losing a game like this doesn't make this team "better." Truly a "bad" loss, arguably the first of the Shaka era.

[MU82]

One more: Not an excuse, but we missed Kam Jones today.

He can get hot from 3, he puts good pressure on the ball, would have helped keep other MU players fresher.

[Miss Katie’s]

O Max rolling with his guy to the lane and not helping on the 3 was such a bonehead play. Give them anything inside the arc. JUST DONT GIVE UP A 3

Clueless basketball play

Agreed.  Give up anything inside the arc and don’t even get close enough to foul.  Only thing that matters is the 3. 

[1SE]

Also have to say, at least from the broadcast the crowd seemed super flat - even when it got interesting

[panda]

Idk why some are saying fouling with a side court in bound less than three seconds left is an automatic foul up 3 situation. That is where bad things can happen.

Back court 70 feet from the basket is automatic territory. This was hardly automatic.

[NickelDimer]

Idk why some are saying fouling with a side court in bound less than three seconds left is an automatic foul up 3 situation. That is where bad things can happen.

Back court 70 feet from the basket is automatic territory. This was hardly automatic.

He caught and dribbled the ball. It’s a no brainer

[panda]

He caught and dribbled the ball. It’s a no brainer

Crafty player with Oso on him could easily turn into a shooting foul.

See Justin Lewis at the end of the shot clock earlier in the game. Our bigs aren’t great at face guarding on the perimeter.

[Jockey]

My worry from the start was that this was going to be a "Depaul season" for MU. I haven't seen anything to change my mind. The next 3 games are critical - lose all 3 and this team will finish dead last in the BE. Win just one and it is still probably a last place team.


Can someone talk me off the ledge? I'm not talking moral victories or development.

[We R Final Four]

My 15 year old said, put four guys on the perimeter facing the basket and Kur in the lane. Might be unconventional, but he understand you cannot give up a three under any circumstance

Smart kid. Maybe have all 5 on the perimeter….not enough time for CU to secure a rebound and get off a 2nd 3 point attempt in that situation.

[willie warrior]

1.  MU was in this game because their defense finally woke up.    Not many saw that coming after the first three 3's of the second half. 
2.  Osa has come so far.    38 minutes all of last year.    Spark plug of the team this year.    Still only 6'9.    He will get beat up from time to time.   
3.  Creighton has played two straight really solid defensive games.   
4.  Creighton should have just kept feeding Kalkbrenner in the post.   Every single time until MU doubled him. 
5.   Gotta love the lack of quit in this team.   I wish they would stop digging themselves such a deep hole.   
6.  MU got to 32 deflections.
7.   Remind me again about why some don't like OMP?   Hustle like that with 4 fouls.   He has revealed his character.   
8.  Creighton going zone iced MU in the second OT.   Genius move by Dougie.    I would never play man against MU.   3 pt shooting and all.   
9.  Probably going to be a lot of talk about fouling up 3.    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.    Bit MU in the butt. 
10.   It is going to be OK.    Yes, we don't have studs.    But we have high character fighters.   Some days that will be enough.   Some days it won't.   Sit back.   Relax.   Enjoy the process.

When do we start winning? Are we now seeing why Shaka was run out of Texas?

[PointWarrior]

Are we happy Kolek has 3 more years?   Or can he be a good backup PG is Shaka can bring in a PG who can actually make a shot? 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

When do we start winning? Are we now seeing why Shaka was run out of Texas?

 

Today’s loss really sucked but come on….

[79Warrior]

When do we start winning? Are we now seeing why Shaka was run out of Texas?

Sure. 14 games into his career at MU? What a stupid comment.

[MU82]

I put it in the "Shaka fails" thread, but probably belongs here, too ...

Here is word-for-word exactly what Shaka Smart said at his postgame presser about the no-foul-up-3 situation:

We normally, when there's 6 seconds or less, do. It was a unique situation with the ball being on the side there. What we didn't want to happen was for them to throw it in and us to go foul and then (O'Connell) to get into the shooting motion.

Obviously, when you watch the play back, you certainly would wanna do something different -- either really, really play a lot more aggressively, or foul. I've unfortunately seen it work out the wrong way both ways, and I think for us, regardless of what we're doing, it's about executing it and finding a way.

And I think it's really important not to ever encapsulate a game in one play. Certainly that one sticks out because we had a 3-point lead with 3 seconds left.

[tower912]

Willie gotta Willie.

[Jockey]

Smart kid. Maybe have all 5 on the perimeter….not enough time for CU to secure a rebound and get off a 2nd 3 point attempt in that situation.

That’s what I was yelling for. Who cares if they get a gimme ‘2’?

McDermott did exactly the right thing at the end of regulation. Shaka did the exact wrong thing at the end of overtime. There are never guarantees, but you always play the best odds.

[tower912]

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401373530

Box score

[Dr. Blackheart]

Crafty player with Oso on him could easily turn into a shooting foul.

See Justin Lewis at the end of the shot clock earlier in the game. Our bigs aren’t great at face guarding on the perimeter.

A crafty coach works for that match-up.  An uncrafty coach allows it.

[#UnleashSean]

I didn’t think there was enough time, but once he dribbled that’s when we should have done it. I thought it would be a catch and shoot scenario.

People keep saying this. You foul off ball on the inbounds.

Code: [Select]

[4everwarriors]

Dey snatched dafeet from da jaws of victory, aina

[Goose]

4ever,
That pretty much sums it up.

[4everwarriors]

Give 'em credit for snatchin', hey?

[panda]

A crafty coach works for that match-up.  An uncrafty coach allows it.

Fire Shaka for switching guys on a ball screen with 3 seconds left.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Fire Shaka for switching guys on a ball screen with 3 seconds left.

CU had two places to shoot a trey. The corner and where O'Connell shot the ball. MU had one defensive player outside the arc when the shot went off (Kolek was at least near the line on the corner).  That's the trap spots. Poor scheme by the defensive coach. Great read by the offensive coach to find that iso.

Of course, Wojo's bigs also got isolated that way too.

[BM1090]

People keep saying this. You foul off ball on the inbounds.

Code: [Select]

Can’t they rule that an away from the play foul and give shots and the ball?

[Jockey]

Can’t they rule that an away from the play foul and give shots and the ball?

You foul after the inbounds pass.

[#UnleashSean]

Can’t they rule that an away from the play foul and give shots and the ball?

That's the rule in the NBA. Not college.

[BM1090]

That's the rule in the NBA. Not college.

Thank you. Then yeah this is the clear best option with only 3 seconds left

[bilsu]

Are we happy Kolek has 3 more years?   Or can he be a good backup PG is Shaka can bring in a PG who can actually make a shot?

MU would be really bad this year without Kolek.

[MU82]

That's the rule in the NBA. Not college.

Officially, there is no such thing as an "intentional" foul. But there are two types of flagrant fouls, and here is the wording from the NCAA basketball rulebook on a "Flagrant 1 Personal Foul":

A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in.
6. Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2 personal foul (see Rule 4-18.7)

I used bold to highlight the two parts of the rule that could called a "flagrant 1" if a player on Team X simply grabs a player on Team Y. It's not called often, but I have seen it called if it's obvious.

On the play that's driving us all nuts, it wasn't necessary to do it. There literally were two chances to foul O'Donnell before he went up for the shot; if Shaka had wanted to do it, we could have done it. (Not to mention Oso and O-Max could have made the shot more difficult.)

[willie warrior]

My worry from the start was that this was going to be a "Depaul season" for MU. I haven't seen anything to change my mind. The next 3 games are critical - lose all 3 and this team will finish dead last in the BE. Win just one and it is still probably a last place team.


Can someone talk me off the ledge? I'm not talking moral victories or development.

Anybody starting to wonder if we will win a conference game?
We can't get out coached and outplayed every game, can we?

[Viper]

Anybody starting to wonder if we will win a conference game?
We can't get out coached and outplayed every game, can we?

the more things change...and it has, the more it all stays the same. A decade of suck. 

[Mu8891]

Willie ... will they go winless?  No.

But, they will get killed by PROV and that makes them 0 - 4 ... tick tick tick

The way this is going, I don’t see how they get to 5 BE wins.  And that’s on Shaka -  not enough talent and coaching is leaving a Lot to be desired.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Willie ... will they go winless?  No.

But, they will get killed by PROV and that makes them 0 - 4 ... tick tick tick

The way this is going, I don’t see how they get to 5 BE wins.  And that’s on Shaka -  not enough talent and coaching is leaving a Lot to be desired.

tick tick tick...what exactly?

[Viper]

tick tick tick...what exactly?

try not being dense. Have another cup of coffee. The reference is to the losses that are quickly amassing, with no end in sight.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

try not being dense. Have another cup of coffee. The reference is to the losses that are quickly amassing, with no end in sight.

I am not sure what the author meant.  That is why I asked the question.

[Mu8891]

Fluffy is correct...

It is / was a reference to the mounting loses, with the real chance that the entire season will implode.

Winning breads confidence and more winning.  Losing feeds on itself too

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fluffy is correct...

It is / was a reference to the mounting loses, with the real chance that the entire season will implode.

Winning breads confidence and more winning.  Losing feeds on itself too

Gotcha.  (It was Viper that said that, not me.) 

[willie warrior]

Sure. 14 games into his career at MU? What a stupid comment.

What a stupid comment by you. It was a question.  Yes 14 games in and the team losing all their conference games to date along with what happened to him at Texas sure backs up the logic of asking the question. You can be happy with mediocrity. I want to see improvement as the season goes on, and right now we are not seeing it. In the BEast, you need to win your home games and we are not doing it.

[rocky_warrior]

In the BEast, you need to win your home games and we are not doing it.

I didn't/don't have high expectations for this year.  But this was the first game that I believe MU should have won that it didn't.  Credit to the team for not laying an egg in a winnable game to this point.  But it also helped solidify my belief that my low expectations this year are warranted.

[MUDPT]

I would be shocked if Shaka had actually told a player to foul, he didn't and then Shaka calls him out postgame.  Coaches just don't do that to a player, they eat it. 

Again, MU is stagnant on offense and has been majority of the year.  They just can't put ball in basket, whether threes, short or layups.  Have to score in order to win. 

Kolek was 4 for 14 and is now 7 for last 42 on threes.  He makes some nice passes, but some bad turnovers and horrendous shooting.  Quicker guards, like Nemhard today blew past him today. Not good for a starting point guard.

Lewis was 4 for 18 and his three point percentage also is dismal.  With no outside shot, his NBA potential is non existent.  Yes, one, only one mock service had him listed, all others not even mentioned. 

Thank goodness for Oso going 10 for 12.

Wojo totally did it to Sy his freshman year after the road X game.

[jfp61]

Wojo totally did it to Sy his freshman year after the road X game.

Do the opposite of what wojo did in his press conferences.