K-12 Schools & COVID

[mu_hilltopper]

Indeed .. it's odd (and I'd say wrong) that there is "voting" on whether or not to go back to school in-person.

Just like smoking was barred from workplaces (restaurants) due to 2nd hand smoke being a health danger to employees .. No one should be able to vote teachers into jobs with this substantial risk. 

Those surveys are full of bad data.  100% of parents want their kids back in school like it was 2019. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

We are hearing more from teachers because they have the ability to speak out.  They are largely protected by unions, and have more wealth and income than many of the traditional "essential workers."  And in return, many are ridiculing their concerns.  Which isn't helpful.

As I have mentioned earlier, my neice is a teacher whose mom has underlying health issues.  Once schools starts, she isn't planning on seeing them in person until the Holidays.  And she lives a mile away from them.

[buckchuckler]

The availability of that virtual option is what makes this materially different than many of the examples you cited, which makes for less-than-adequate comparisons. There is no virtual food. There is no virtual replacement for goods delivered by Amazon. There are no online day care centers or virtual ways to put out a fire or play an NBA game.

Which is why I also said:

This is more convoluted, because there is a remote option, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it isn't even viable for everyone.  And when it works and is viable, it isn't as good. 

And I'm not I said or implied anything about work or macaroons and the view. 

[4everwarriors]

What would folks say to this Charlotte teacher, who works at one of the 5 largest high schools in NC?

“I cannot retire. I cannot resign. I need my job,” said Nhora Gómez-Saxon, a teacher at South Mecklenburg High School. “And right now I am the only one working in my family. I do not have an underlying condition, but I have a mother who finished her cancer treatment just on time to celebrate her 80th birthday.”

So if one demands that in-person school take place in Charlotte, one is demanding that this teacher put her family's health in jeopardy. Just one of many examples of how this is not just a case of "students aren't likely to get it, and if they don't they won't get very sick" issue.

Meanwhile, the most recent survey of NC parents of school-aged children, 44% said it could be 3-12 months until they feel comfortable sending kids to school, day care or camp. Another 16% say it would take them a year, and 3% wouldn’t again feel at ease with the idea, according to findings Chernoff Newman published this month.

About 18% say the idea already makes them comfortable, and that same portion expects to feel that way sometime “over the summer,” according to results from the marketing firm.

FYI, NC school districts have 2 options: virtual-only education or a "hybrid" system of remote and in-person learning. Most of the large districts have chosen virtual-only.

The largest, which includes Charlotte, has chosen in-person reporting for 2 weeks so kids can meet their teachers and classmates, get supplies, do orientation, etc.; followed by virtual learning for the rest of the fall semester. The teacher quoted at the top of this comment works in this district and isn't comfortable reporting to school for those 2 weeks.
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Easy, get fired, collect unemployment plus $600/week and kick it. Next person up, hey?

[buckchuckler]

We are hearing more from teachers because they have the ability to speak out.  They are largely protected by unions, and have more wealth and income than many of the traditional "essential workers."  And in return, many are ridiculing their concerns.  Which isn't helpful.

I think this is pretty accurate.  And I hope my statement wasn't taken as ridiculing their concerns.  That was not my intent.  Obviously there are completely valid concerns.  But there are concerns for everyone that has had to go back to work anytime over the last few months.  And whether it is seeing hundreds of customers a day inside a grocery store, or seeing 30 customers a day at an oil change place, or anything else, every job in which people are present has had risk factors increase exponentially. 

But in many cases, how teachers are speaking out seems sanctimonious and ignores the risks others have taken.  Which also doesn't help.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Easy, get fired, collect unemployment plus $600/week and kick it. Next person up, hey?

1. The $600 ends after this week.  And you don't get unemployment if you quit your job.

2.  I like how cavalier you are about just letting good, experienced teachers quitting en masse instead of considering what it might take to allow them to do their job safely.

3.  Less people are going into teacher education nationwide.  The idea that there are enough quality teachers simply sitting on the sidelines waiting for a chance is not an accurate one.  This isn't 10-20 years ago.

[tower912]

Yup.  Do some research on the teacher shortage.   And particularly the substitute teacher shortage.


For many of the same reasons there is a shortage of qualified police officer candidates.

[MU82]

There is no easy answer. 

This is more convoluted, because there is a remote option, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it isn't even viable for everyone.  And when it works and is viable, it isn't as good.  But I guess I don't understand why teachers going to work is different from anyone else in the country going to work.

Your first line is correct.

Others have explained why your last line might not be. Heck, even what you said in the first part of that last paragraph explains why it might not be.

Or we can just say what Doc says: "Eff 'em. Good teachers are easy to find."

We are hearing more from teachers because they have the ability to speak out.  They are largely protected by unions

Here in NC, and in many red states, teachers unions have been effectively killed. There is collective body with any clout that speaks for teachers in states such as NC. They've been told, "You'll get what we give you and shut the hell up" here for years.

[4everwarriors]

1. The $600 ends after this week.  And you don't get unemployment if you quit your job.

2.  I like how cavalier you are about just letting good, experienced teachers quitting en masse instead of considering what it might take to allow them to do their job safely.

3.  Less people are going into teacher education nationwide.  The idea that there are enough quality teachers simply sitting on the sidelines waiting for a chance is not an accurate one.  This isn't 10-20 years ago.

Education is going virtual, so the need isn't as great as it seems

[tower912]

Sell the dental practice.    Become a substitute teacher for your retirement years.    Be the positive influence they so desperately need.   You are just the guy to do it.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Education is going virtual, so the need isn't as great as it seems

???

In the post you quoted from MU82 above, the woman whose quote you bolded, was concerned about a lack of safety in an in-person setting.  You said she should quit.  Now you are saying that education is going virtual. 

And if you don't think we need qualified teachers to teach in a virtual setting, you are mistaken.  In fact I would argue that need is more acute.  You can't just take a teacher who has taught in person for 20 years and put her in front of a web-cam.  It's a different skill set.

[forgetful]

???

In the post you quoted from MU82 above, the woman whose quote you bolded, was concerned about a lack of safety in an in-person setting.  You said she should quit.  Now you are saying that education is going virtual. 

And if you don't think we need qualified teachers to teach in a virtual setting, you are mistaken.  In fact I would argue that need is more acute.  You can't just take a teacher who has taught in person for 20 years and put her in front of a web-cam.  It's a different skill set.

There were already differences in quality of teaching from one instructor to another. The switch to virtual has made this a significantly wider gap. Teaching in the virtual realm is a beast of another animal, and when done right, can actually take more of an instructors time. I'd argue that a properly constructed virtual course, that optimizes instructor/student interactions, would require more teachers and faculty, as the student/instructor ratio should be smaller to ensure the best student outcomes.

[Galway Eagle]

Not taking sides here, but it's a little more complicated than this.
Teachers want to go back to work, but they want to go back to work in a way that is safe for themselves, their families and their students.
It's not a choice between being in a packed classroom vs sitting at home eating macaroons and watching "The View." It's a choice between in-person learning vs virtual learning. I don't think there's anyone who can honestly tell you that, all things being equal, the latter is preferable. But not all things are equal, as there are legitimate and serious public health issues at play as well. And what it comes down to is whether the benefits of in-person learning during a pandemic outweigh the health risks of in-person learning during a pandemic.

The availability of that virtual option is what makes this materially different than many of the examples you cited, which makes for less-than-adequate comparisons. There is no virtual food. There is no virtual replacement for goods delivered by Amazon. There are no online day care centers or virtual ways to put out a fire or play an NBA game.

Umm what about NBA 2K?

But more seriously +1 to this post

[mu_hilltopper]

I hadn't given a lot of thought to substitute teachers .. my wife was a sub for 4 years.  In the best times, they are in very short supply. 

I imagine if in-person classes go forward, the sub shortage will be gigantic.

[Pakuni]

I hadn't given a lot of thought to substitute teachers .. my wife was a sub for 4 years.  In the best times, they are in very short supply. 

I imagine if in-person classes go forward, the sub shortage will be gigantic.

It doesn't help that in many places you can do better working the register at Target than working as a substitute teacher.
(Not saying Target workers are overpaid, but that sub teachers are underpaid).

[tower912]

It was touched on at the aforementioned back to school virtual meeting.    Our administrators did not have an answer.

[Hards Alumni]

Sell the dental practice.    Become a substitute teacher for your retirement years.    Be the positive influence they so desperately need.   You are just the guy to do it.

Nah, he should just donate all the PPE he gets to use to teachers, and instead of doing his exams one at a time he can have thirty five year old children in his office at once.

Plenty of dentists around.   Next man up, aina?

[Hards Alumni]

I hadn't given a lot of thought to substitute teachers .. my wife was a sub for 4 years.  In the best times, they are in very short supply. 

I imagine if in-person classes go forward, the sub shortage will be gigantic.

The only one I know, personally, decided to call it a career last month and retired.

[GooooMarquette]

There were already differences in quality of teaching from one instructor to another. The switch to virtual has made this a significantly wider gap. Teaching in the virtual realm is a beast of another animal, and when done right, can actually take more of an instructors time. I'd argue that a properly constructed virtual course, that optimizes instructor/student interactions, would require more teachers and faculty, as the student/instructor ratio should be smaller to ensure the best student outcomes.

Totally agree with this.

My wife is a para/teacher's aide, so she worked directly with her teacher this past spring. They were bending over backwards to come up with ways to keep the kids engaged and keep up with the curriculum, and it was definitely more work than they usually put in. And even though this would ease a bit over time, I seriously doubt the job would be 'easier' than before just because it might continue to be virtual.

Beyond the switch to virtual (difficult enough in its own right), the most difficult thing facing teachers now is the very real possibility that some school districts might expect them to teach in-person and virtually at the same time. It is a difficult enough job to do exclusively in-person or virtual; even more difficult if they might be going back and forth throughout the year, and crazy difficult to impossible if they might be required to do both simultaneously. And the possibility of having to ping-pong between these scenarios throughout the school year makes planning virtually impossible, and extremely stressful.

Given all that, it seems to me that we might want to listen a little harder to the teachers' views on the subject, and take their views very seriously.

[tower912]

It is easy to be snarky, but on a lot of levels, I am serious.     Scoopers old enough to be retired have an opportunity to give back and help educate today's youth.    And earn a (very) few bucks on the side.   If this doesn't appeal, what is it about teaching you don't find appealing, even on a limited basis?    This could be your opportunity to be the proverbial 'next man up.'   

[DegenerateDish]

Just curious, has anyone else decided to go the route that my wife and I have chosen and to home school their kids this year?

By no means am I saying that's the best/most effective option, I'm just wondering what that number is going to look like. None of my friends/neighbors are going that route, I believe we'll be in a small minority in that regard.

[GooooMarquette]

It is easy to be snarky, but on a lot of levels, I am serious.     Scoopers old enough to be retired have an opportunity to give back and help educate today's youth.    And earn a (very) few bucks on the side.   If this doesn't appeal, what is it about teaching you don't find appealing, even on a limited basis?    This could be your opportunity to be the proverbial 'next man up.'   

Interesting you say that, because I am close to retiring and have been thinking of getting my teaching certificate. Back in the day, I was a university TA for a couple years, and even taught intro level Biology, Anatomy and Physiology at a nearby community college. Thing is, I am not going to risk my life doing it, and I certainly am not going to start at a time where even great, experienced teachers are getting stressed to the breaking point. So for now, my plans are on hold...but in a year or two after COVID is past, I may be the 'new' 60-year old guy at a local high school or community college.

[Pakuni]

Just curious, has anyone else decided to go the route that my wife and I have chosen and to home school their kids this year?

By no means am I saying that's the best/most effective option, I'm just wondering what that number is going to look like. None of my friends/neighbors are going that route, I believe we'll be in a small minority in that regard.

Is your district not offering a virtual option?

[GB Warrior]

It is easy to be snarky, but on a lot of levels, I am serious.     Scoopers old enough to be retired have an opportunity to give back and help educate today's youth.    And earn a (very) few bucks on the side.   If this doesn't appeal, what is it about teaching you don't find appealing, even on a limited basis?    This could be your opportunity to be the proverbial 'next man up.'   

Why would they come out of retirement and jeopardize their health and safety when there are teachers on payroll they could sacrifice instead

[DegenerateDish]

Is your district not offering a virtual option?

They are offering a virtual option, but my wife and I didn't feel it went that great from March - May, so we're going to home school for this upcoming year instead. Context - my wife has her degree in education, she works at a community college/teaches there as well, and she will be working from home this entire upcoming school year. I work from home as well.

We ran the virtual learning option past our kids, and laid out our plan for home schooling instead, and we came to a consensus on home schooling. Being able to teach them at our pace, get them started on Spanish, teach them life skills as well as the core curriculum, those went into our decision.

I'm not trying to piss on the virtual option, but my kids felt it was more like a job, they were just doing the work to do it, not learning and retaining.