COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[GooooMarquette]

So many hot takes here. I cent believe some of you are willing to justify letting people die so you can make a few bucks.  Have you no compassion or decency? 

Disgusting reasoning and abhorrent suggestions.

I'm ashamed to be reading things like this from fellow graduates.

Yep. Reminiscent of the Ford Pinto debacle. Callously sacrificing lives for cash.

We won’t be able to save all the lives, but as a civilized society, we can’t just give up in the name of commerce.

[keefe]

My friend is relatively young, fit, etc and is past the 14 days.

Fever is long gone. Cough is mostly gone. Shortness of breath is getting better. The lethargy is just now starting to kick in.

Was that your experience as well? Lethargy follows everything else?

The illness runs for about two weeks. And lethargy sets in towards the end.

We personally know of at least two dozen confirmed cases here in Seattle and many more where the symptoms mirrored ours.

What is interesting is that they altered the criteria here because not everyone had all of the symptoms, especially shortness of breath.

We need to be mindful of its impact on those populations which are at mortal risk. This is why we voluntarily self-quarantine. But for the vast majority of people it will be a rather uncomfortable cold.   

[shoothoops]

For the Patriotic, Thank you for your service when its convenient with words and not action crowd...the VA is has had 100 tests for over 9 million Veterans. Half of them are over 65. And first deaths have been reported.

The U.S. had the materials to replicate previously recommended WHO tests (recommended tests began in January). .....at the very least until developing its own test.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/16/cdc-who-coronavirus-tests/%3foutputType=amp

[JWags85]

So many hot takes here. I cent believe some of you are willing to justify letting people die so you can make a few bucks.  Have you no compassion or decency? 

Disgusting reasoning and abhorrent suggestions.

I'm ashamed to be reading things like this from fellow graduates.

"Make a few bucks".  Again, the hypothetical posed is businesses declaring bankruptcy, permanently cutting jobs, shutting down completely.  Not sacrificing a few days of profits.  You can ride out a 2 week quarantine/shut down/etc... 4-6 weeks of closing basically everything will ruin a lot of businesses. 

The Ford Pinto was a cost benefit analysis of lawsuits versus profits.  Not lawsuit/human costs versus Ford going out of business.

I feel like there are two parallel conversations.  Those arguing the alternative to a 4-6 week shutdown are being lumped in with a lesser level of closing, WFH, etc...

I can tell you right now, from conversations with friends of mine in manufacturing and management, there are companies that if they can't deliver cause they are closed for longer than 2 weeks, their global customers will go elsewhere and they wont come hopping back once they reopen. My buddy is helping to reorg a business that makes electrical components, they were on the verge of bankruptcy cause their parts were from China and tariffs hit them hard, but dug themselves out.  If they shut down and cant ship by the first week in April, they are toast. 500 factory and office jobs, and thats after layoffs and hour cutbacks.

Again, none of this is easy, and its hard questions.  But its not just "save lives or make some cash", some of the more extreme prevention scenarios will lead to many businesses not surviving.

[Keithtisbarf]

Many workplaces that need to have workers on premises are using an A and B team model, rotating between teams to allow for social distancing and continue work flow.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Why am I not surprised?

Because the Pandemic Response Team was shut down where this most likely would have proceeded with.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

https://twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/1239739685490102278?s=20

Shut down the quarantine. Get back to work. Open everything up.

Let's mentally prepare now.

More support that lockdown saves lives.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lockdown-of-recovering-italian-town-shows-effectiveness-of-early-action-11584391837?mod=e2fb

Also note feb 19 first case.  That person has thankfully survived treatment, but was just discharged from the hospital per the article.  Holy crap. 

[rocket surgeon]

In January, German Scientists developed the first Coronavirus test. Sixty countries said yes, we will use your test, or, at the very least, we will use your test until we develop our own. U.S. Administration said no. People can discuss Xenophobia, Provincial attitudes, and so on...but this right here is beyond the comprehension of many.

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article206555143/Corona-USA-will-Zugriff-auf-deutsche-Impfstoff-Firma.html

unless this "test" did anything for them that we already didn't have ourselves, this is just another set up to take a political shot at the USA.  if this would have been even a fraction of an issue, the press would be bludgeoning him over the head with it 24/7 like that did with his 2 scoops of ice cream.

[rocket surgeon]

NO THE WHITEHOUSE DID'NT DISSOLVE IT"S PANDEMIC RESPONSE OFFICE

  for all of you partisans so quick to jump on just about anything you hear from chris hayes or raychel madow, well there's a reasson our media is going down the chitter.  they're supposed to HELP us especially in moments as such, but would rather strengthen chinas opinion-sad

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

unless this "test" did anything for them that we already didn't have ourselves, this is just another set up to take a political shot at the USA.  if this would have been even a fraction of an issue, the press would be bludgeoning him over the head with it 24/7 like that did with his 2 scoops of ice cream.

Rocket in a world where symptoms range from heavy cold to one month in the hospital we need full scale testing like a month ago.  Otherwise we will never know who is safe, who needs to quarantine or for how long, etc.  this decision contributed to where we are.

Pointing out policy inaction is not a political shot.  Unless your Xi.  Then it’s punishable. 

[CreightonWarrior]

I work for a top 100 bank performing a critical function and was told I was not allowed to come in and WFH to protect my health. The real winner in all this is my pup.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Data to support how woefully behind we are on testing.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/17/us/coronavirus-testing-data.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR3k0pAyZZxz4wwjvkB7BytYb_FZ5Rjgx0VWFnXLo4UnObMSuDycsjOBbnc

[mu03eng]

I'm going to be super callous and provocative in this post for the purpose of advancing the conversation on risk/reward of policy making but please note I'm not advocating a particular approach nor am I a monster(I don't think).

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 80,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 800,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 2 Million....would you still go lock down if you could prevent 75% of them(500,000 dead instead)

How do you balance that against putting over 50% of the countries jobs at risk and depriving its children of at least 3 months of education all while drawing on yet more debt to the national treasury to float the economy. Meanwhile, China is the first to recover from this and is already tooling up to take over more of the global economy.

We let people die every day for entirely preventable reasons because as a society we've either willfully or ignorantly decided it would be too difficult to bother saving them. Coronavirus is that calculus on a severe time compression.

There are no easy answers as a society, the answers are only easy when an individual looks at it with their own perspective and lens.....trying to balance the needs of an extremely diverse and large populace is f#cking impossible so how would you do it?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I'm going to be super callous and provocative in this post for the purpose of advancing the conversation on risk/reward of policy making but please note I'm not advocating a particular approach nor am I a monster(I don't think).

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 80,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 800,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 2 Million....would you still go lock down if you could prevent 75% of them(500,000 dead instead)

How do you balance that against putting over 50% of the countries jobs at risk and depriving its children of at least 3 months of education all while drawing on yet more debt to the national treasury to float the economy. Meanwhile, China is the first to recover from this and is already tooling up to take over more of the global economy.

We let people die every day for entirely preventable reasons because as a society we've either willfully or ignorantly decided it would be too difficult to bother saving them. Coronavirus is that calculus on a severe time compression.

There are no easy answers as a society, the answers are only easy when an individual looks at it with their own perspective and lens.....trying to balance the needs of an extremely diverse and large populace is f#cking impossible so how would you do it?

Eng a gnarly question but only likely answerable after the fact. 

We are day by day now.  Right now, we need to stop & find out who has this to 1. protect the vulnerable and 2. ease the impending wave on the healthcare system and 3. develop a plan for what we do once we find out how big the problem is.  We are in situational analysis mode -- so the questions of normalcy are likely weeks out in my mind. 

Truthfully pretending there wont be a massive economic impact going the 'keep the economy spending' route is naive (in my opinion).  Fear and uncertainty are terrible things for consumer confidence and worker productivity.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Are letting masses of people  - even apparently less valuable older people - die or long-term economic depression really the only options here?

Also, do you think the economy would survive unscathed a collapse of the health care system that likely would result from your option 2?

Shutting things down until the end of next week isn't going to destroy the economy. 

[jesmu84]

I'm going to be super callous and provocative in this post for the purpose of advancing the conversation on risk/reward of policy making but please note I'm not advocating a particular approach nor am I a monster(I don't think).

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 80,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 800,000....would you still go lock down if it could prevent half of them?

If I told you the max deaths from this outbreak in the US were 2 Million....would you still go lock down if you could prevent 75% of them(500,000 dead instead)

How do you balance that against putting over 50% of the countries jobs at risk and depriving its children of at least 3 months of education all while drawing on yet more debt to the national treasury to float the economy. Meanwhile, China is the first to recover from this and is already tooling up to take over more of the global economy.

We let people die every day for entirely preventable reasons because as a society we've either willfully or ignorantly decided it would be too difficult to bother saving them. Coronavirus is that calculus on a severe time compression.

There are no easy answers as a society, the answers are only easy when an individual looks at it with their own perspective and lens.....trying to balance the needs of an extremely diverse and large populace is f#cking impossible so how would you do it?

Good post

[warriorchick]

Yep.  People say "you can't put a price on human life", but in reality, it's done all the time.  Is it worth a trillion dollars to save one life?  How about five dollars?

The question is where do we want to stick the pin?

[Archies Bat]

Shutting things down until the end of next week isn't going to destroy the economy.

I think it is a mainly moot point anyway.  My assessment is >50% of Americans have decided to follow the guidance and stay predominantly at home for the next several weeks.  And a large chunk of those who don't stay at home are likely to still catch the virus and be out of economic circulation for a time while symptomatic.

[GooooMarquette]

NO THE WHITEHOUSE DID'NT DISSOLVE IT"S PANDEMIC RESPONSE OFFICE

  for all of you partisans so quick to jump on just about anything you hear from chris hayes or raychel madow, well there's a reasson our media is going down the chitter.  they're supposed to HELP us especially in moments as such, but would rather strengthen chinas opinion-sad

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/

You are a couple pages behind, doc. Dr. Fauci himself verified that they did indeed eliminate this office. And the last I checked, Fauci isn't channeling Matthews or Maddow....

[Pakuni]

Shutting things down until the end of next week isn't going to destroy the economy.

Tell that to the people here suggesting that it's one of two possible outcomes.

[StillAWarrior]

I know that my family is generally far more hunkered down than many. Unfortunately, my wife had to make a road trip this past weekend to move one daughter out of her dorm, and left this morning to move the other daughter out of her dorm. Aside from that -- and my work -- we're pretty well locked down.

I am still going to work at the office. It is a relatively small office and we're all keeping a distance. We work very closely supporting the long-term care industry so this is a huge issue for our clients. While we're not technically in the health care industry, many providers are relying very heavily on us as we navigate this crisis. A couple of my coworkers are working from home (one who was feeling a little ill last week but seems fine and one who is immunocompromised). I suspect at some point I will WFH, but right now at my house I have three college students, one HS student and my college graduate son who works in the banking industry all working in my house. Hell, the "office" at home is almost as populous as the office where I work.

[shoothoops]

unless this "test" did anything for them that we already didn't have ourselves, this is just another set up to take a political shot at the USA.  if this would have been even a fraction of an issue, the press would be bludgeoning him over the head with it 24/7 like that did with his 2 scoops of ice cream.

Nah...taking a political shot would be pointing out that Jared Kushner’s brother Josh is one of the founders of Oscar Health...a company that announced Coronavirus testing development this week.

Report after report every day for quite some time has pointed out that the United States could have obtained other WHO approved credible tests and/or had the materials to replicate it. Instead the choice was to develop a more complex test that has failed repeatedly, costing lots of time. The United States was also very slow to work with the private sector to develop tests. The Roche announcement for example was way way way too late.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1239879833116725249

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

You are a couple pages behind, doc. Dr. Fauci himself verified that they did indeed eliminate this office. And the last I checked, Fauci isn't channeling Matthews or Maddow....

And there's a story this morning where this office as part of the the Obama transition team tried to run a pandemic scenario to teach the new Trump team and it was completely ignored.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I know that my family is generally far more hunkered down than many. Unfortunately, my wife had to make a road trip this past weekend to move one daughter out of her dorm, and left this morning to move the other daughter out of her dorm. Aside from that -- and my work -- we're pretty well locked down.

I am still going to work at the office. It is a relatively small office and we're all keeping a distance. We work very closely supporting the long-term care industry so this is a huge issue for our clients. While we're not technically in the health care industry, many providers are relying very heavily on us as we navigate this crisis. A couple of my coworkers are working from home (one who was feeling a little ill last week but seems fine and one who is immunocompromised). I suspect at some point I will WFH, but right now at my house I have three college students, one HS student and my college graduate son who works in the banking industry all working in my house. Hell, the "office" at home is almost as populous as the office where I work.

My case also.
My wife just returned from moving the kid out of the dorm.  My wife and younger daughter are off since schools are closed at least until April 1, and the older daughter will be doing the university online learning.

I am still going to the office.  There are a total of 32 people spread out in a very large building and 8 of the people are on 2nd & 3rd shift. 
I have my own office (no cube farm) as does the other 6 office people, so it's still relatively quiet even on a busy day.

[skianth16]

So many hot takes here. I cent believe some of you are willing to justify letting people die so you can make a few bucks.  Have you no compassion or decency? 

Disgusting reasoning and abhorrent suggestions.

I'm ashamed to be reading things like this from fellow graduates.

I think you're misunderstanding why people have concerns over the economic impacts of a mass lockdown. Think about all the people living paycheck to paycheck right now who would likely end up missing work. What happens to them if the lockdown goes on for 2 months? What is the ripple effect going forward for the businesses they work for? How will their children eat?

It seems reasonable that a lockdown could results in a large increase in homelessness, bankruptcies, even suicides. If you knew that 5-10 people would lose their jobs and end up homeless for every life you saved with the lockdown, wouldn't that make the choice to implement a mass lockdown pretty hard?

Someone also posted a link about divorce rates going up in China recently. That certainly affects people's lives and well-being. Add into all this the dollars you referenced earlier, and what you might see are businesses closing, job openings becoming more scare, retirees struggling to pay their bills or needing to find an additional source of income, older workers not being able to retire as planned. The economic impacts carry a massive social impact as well. To choose what could potentially be 10,000 lives over the livelihood of likely millions or tens of millions isn't always such a straightforward decision.

It seems certain that more lives will be harmed than lost in this crisis. Balancing the final outcome is incredibly difficult.

Edit - I'll add to this too that there haven't been very many deaths globally from this. I know there is concern that the US will be hit harder than other countries due to our delayed response, but even in Italy, they have "only" had 2,100 deaths. To me, that makes the decision even harder. And the ratios of those who are impacted financially vs. potential deaths could easily be greater than 1,000:1.