MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Room510 on March 24, 2019, 07:13:41 PM
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As the season ends with a thud for conference, curious to see how scoopers rank the coaches - even if all have not had five years yet. I'll go first :
1. Wright
2. Cooley
3. McDermott
4. Willard
5. Wojo
6. Ewing
7. Mullin
8. Steele
9. Leitao
10. Jordan
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Mine is off of just this season.
1. Wright
2. Willard
3. Wojo
4. Steele
5. Ewing
6. Leitao
7. McDermott
8. Jordan
9. Cooley
10. Mullin
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Too soon for me to say about Jordan, Ewing, and Steele.
Wright's #1 by a mile.
I think Wojo, Willard, Cooley, and McDermott are all pretty close to each other as of right now.
Mullin and Leitao bring up the rear.
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1. Wright
2. Willard
3. Cooley
4.McDermott
5. Steele
6. Jordan
7. Ewing
8 . Wojo
9. Mullin
10. Leitao
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1. Wright
2. Cooley
3. Willard
4. Wojo
5. Ewing
6. Steele
7. McDermott
8. Leitao
9. Mullin
10. Jordan
[/quote]
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1. Wright
2. Willard
3. Cooley
4.McDermott
5. Steele
6. Jordan
7. Ewing
8 . Wojo
9. Mullin
10. Leitao
About right.
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1. Wright
2. Willard
3. McDermott
4. Wojo
Doesn't matter. The rest are trash.
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This board used to destroy Willard every chance they got. Hmm, could it be that coaches get better with age and experience.
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This board used to destroy Willard every chance they got. Hmm, could it be that coaches get better with age and experience.
Well, four straight NCAA bids, a BET crown and a second game (Round of 32) appearance can change perceptions.
Edited. Thanks Nielsen
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Well, four straight NCAA bids, a BET crown and a second weekend appearance can change perceptions.
Next year Wojo will have 3 of 4, and I expect we will start to do similar things.
Of course, Willard's first five years included zero NCAA wins....in fact, zero NCAA appearances and only one NIT appearance. They stuck with him.
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Well, four straight NCAA bids, a BET crown and a second weekend appearance can change perceptions.
Seton Hall has won a NCAA game, yet to make the 2nd weekend.
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Next year Wojo will have 3 of 4, and I expect we will start to do similar things.
Of course, Willard's first five years included zero NCAA wins....in fact, zero NCAA appearances and only one NIT appearance. They stuck with him.
So...nine years to judge?
My bad...nine years to FULLY judge
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So...nine years to judge?
My bad...nine years to FULLY judge
Why? In 5 years Wojo already has us back in the tournament, several times, and top 3 conference finish. I expect even better next year.
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Seton Hall has won a NCAA game, yet to make the 2nd weekend.
Sorry...Too much going on today for me to keep up. Round of 32 in 2018.
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Well, four straight NCAA bids, a BET crown and a second game (Round of 32) appearance can change perceptions.
Edited. Thanks Nielsen
Do you care that two of the last three years he underperformed relative to expectations with an experienced team?
Do you care that his best team was humiliated in the NCAA by a double digit seed?
Do you care that he hasn't won more than 12 games and hasn't been close to a regular season title?
You weigh heavily the conference tournament title. As you should. It's a terrific accomplishment. Willard's been there nine years and wins eight conference games a year and has one NCAA win. Outside of those 40 minutes of ball, Willard and Hall are positively pedestrian.
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Do you care that two of the last three years he underperformed relative to expectations with an experienced team?
Do you care that his best team was humiliated in the NCAA by a double digit seed?
Do you care that he hasn't won more than 12 games and hasn't been close to a regular season title?
You weigh heavily the conference tournament title. As you should. It's a terrific accomplishment. Willard's been there nine years and wins eight conference games a year and has one NCAA win. Outside of those 40 minutes of ball, Willard and Hall are positively pedestrian.
I honestly don't care. Cheeks asked why fans backed off of him criticizing him. I answered. Pretty straight forward that he broke through the Point A to Point B Wall to get to Point C. Wojo couldn't get to Point C this year. Hopefully he can next year.
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I honestly don't care. Cheeks asked why fans backed off of him criticizing him. I answered. Pretty straight forward that he broke through the Point A to Point B Wall to get to Point C. Wojo couldn't get to Point C this year. Hopefully he can next year.
My point was more that many here don't know what they are talking about when it comes to coaches, or their expectations are out of whack with reality.
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My point was more that many here don't know what they are talking about when it comes to coaches, or their expectations are out of whack with reality.
I got your point. I was giving the specifics why fans were backing off the fire Willard flaming. He moved his team to Point C. It is called achievement.
If Wojo had won the BE, or got to the Round of 32 or 16, or had made the NCAAs 3 (instead of a NIT) straight years and counting...it would be different. As a result, posters here have moved into the fire, hold but moved to on the fence, or are holding on to the Rosey Still on Wojo buckets.
Wojo needs to get to Point C next year. It is pretty straight forward.
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Not going to rank them but one consideration should be the school and its resources. Not all schools in the Big East are on equal footing. That should taken into account.
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Why? In 5 years Wojo already has us back in the tournament, several times, and top 3 conference finish. I expect even better next year.
2 = several?
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Next year Wojo will have 3 of 4, and I expect we will start to do similar things.
Of course, Willard's first five years included zero NCAA wins....in fact, zero NCAA appearances and only one NIT appearance. They stuck with him.
Ya Seton hall was just as easy a rebuild as Marquette. I forgot they were a household names with a bunch of current NBA players with a huge recruiting budget.
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Well, four straight NCAA bids, a BET crown and a second game (Round of 32) appearance can change perceptions.
Edited. Thanks Nielsen
Seton Hall last year had a senior-laden roster with a returning 1st team all-conference player and returning 2nd team all-conference player. They opened the season in the top 25, but struggled in conference, lost their first game in the BE tournament and ended up an 8 seed before exiting the first weekend of the NCAA tourney and finishing the season unranked.
If MU returns with Markus and Sam next year, finishes 10-8 in the Big East, exits the BE tournament on Thursday, earns an 8 seed and doesn't advance past the first weekend of the NCAA tourney, will you say "Attaboy, Wojo?"
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I have never thought much of Willard. I thought he made some underhanded moves to get an elite recruiting class and was trying to ride them to success and failing. The fact that he managed this year's team to an NCAA berth was impressive.
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1-9 ... All BEast coaches not named Wojo.
10 ... Stan.
11 ... Future Warriors coach Nate Oats.
12-ish ... Wojo.
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1. Wright
2. Wojo
3. Cooley
4. Willard
5. Mac
6. Ewing
7. Mullins
8. Leitao
9. Steele
10. Jordan
Note: Wojo at #2 may not be saying much. I think he’d be the most sought after of any big east coach other than Wright. I wouldn’t trade him for any coaches I ranked below him. Big east has lost some coaches recently who I would have ranked ahead of him.
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Seton Hall last year had a senior-laden roster with a returning 1st team all-conference player and returning 2nd team all-conference player. They opened the season in the top 25, but struggled in conference, lost their first game in the BE tournament and ended up an 8 seed before exiting the first weekend of the NCAA tourney and finishing the season unranked.
If MU returns with Markus and Sam next year, finishes 10-8 in the Big East, exits the BE tournament on Thursday, earns an 8 seed and doesn't advance past the first weekend of the NCAA tourney, will you say "Attaboy, Wojo?"
Again you posters keep hanging me with the Willard and Seton Hall endorsement (I am not a fan but thought he did a good job this year). I simply followed up with specifics on Chico's question on why Willard's seat went from hot to cold in the eyes of fans.
To recap, Willard has achieved:
Four straight NCAA appearances
A BET Championship (and another Final)
A Round of 32
It's not that hard to see why the fans turned off the burners on the stove top. Wojo hasn't hit one of those. If he hit just one of those (like the in grasp BE Title), the front burner of most fans' expectations would be on a low simmer.
That said, since you assumed my position on Wojo is negative, it isn't. I was skewered on here a couple of years ago for saying it was a mistake for Wojo to not start Pole Whacking in Year 1 to get his recruits in from the get go (like Kieger did and who has checked all those boxes). He didn't for various reasons, but Buzz's guys all transferred anyway...so I clearly stated that even though it's Year 5 on the calendar, I considered this season as Year 4.
Preseason, I predicted they would be 35 in KPom on here in October and they look that they will end at 32. I am very pleased with the defensive progress. The offense's reliance on the only creator will improve with two redshirts next season. Markus's usage was way too high but there was no other choice on the active roster. The "Year 5 According to Blackheart" looks like some of those boxes will be checked next year.
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Recruiting
1. Wright
2. Mullin
3. Cooley
4. Ewing
5. Wojo
6. Willard
The rest are victims of their schools or themselves. I might be under-rating Ewing.
Game Coaching:
1. Wright
2. Cooley
3. Willard (even though I don't like his strategies)
4. Wojo
5. Leitao
The rest are not notable at all.
In fact, I don't think the current BEAST has any elite game coaches like a Boeheim or Knight. Not saying Wright is the best of a bad lot... he's probably top 25, just that the drop-off is fast.
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Why? In 5 years Wojo already has us back in the tournament, several times, and top 3 conference finish. I expect even better next year.
Uh..2 flameout does not equal several, but have it your way.
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Again you posters keep hanging me with the Willard and Seton Hall endorsement (I am not a fan but thought he did a good job this year). I simply followed up with specifics on Chico's question on why Willard's seat went from hot to cold in the eyes of fans.
To recap, Willard has achieved:
Four straight NCAA appearances
A BET Championship (and another Final)
A Round of 32
It's not that hard to see why the fans turned off the burners on the stove top. Wojo hasn't hit one of those. If he hit just one of those (like the in grasp BE Title), the front burner of most fans' expectations would be on a low simmer.
That said, since you assumed my position on Wojo is negative, it isn't.
Doc ... I'm not trying to assume anything. I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question.
Willard in 17-18 had a very similar situation to what Wojo will have next season, i.e. a veteran roster, two of the league's best players returning, etc.
Willard parlayed that into a 10-8 conference record, 8 seed and first weekend exit.
If Wojo does the same next year, don't you think people will be calling for his head, not calling him one of the BE's best coaches?
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Doc ... I'm not trying to assume anything. I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question.
Willard in 17-18 had a very similar situation to what Wojo will have next season, i.e. a veteran roster, two of the league's best players returning, etc.
Willard parlayed that into a 10-8 conference record, 8 seed and first weekend exit.
If Wojo does the same next year, don't you think people will be calling for his head, not calling him one of the BE's best coaches?
Not only that ...
For those comparing Wojo to Willard, shouldn't the comparison be made to Willard's first 5 seasons at Seton Hall? He was 82-80 overall ... and 30-60 in the BEast, with zero winning records in the conference, zero finishes higher than 7th place and zero NCAA appearances.
And when one counts Willard's 3 seasons at Iona prior to being poached by SH, he had a losing record after 8 years as a college head coach (127-129) with zero NCAA tournament appearances.
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I have never thought much of Willard. I thought he made some underhanded moves to get an elite recruiting class and was trying to ride them to success and failing. The fact that he managed this year's team to an NCAA berth was impressive.
What's the difference between "recruiting" a kid's HS coach (Willard) in order to secure a commitment and recruiting a kid's brother (Wojo)?
(In fairness, IIRC, I think Whitehead was listed in the FBI probe, but I'm not sure about the rest of that class; and I'm not sure about Willard's guilt)
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What's the difference between "recruiting" a kid's HS coach (Willard) in order to secure a commitment and recruiting a kid's brother (Wojo)?
(In fairness, IIRC, I think Whitehead was listed in the FBI probe, but I'm not sure about the rest of that class; and I'm not sure about Willard's guilt)
I wasn't referring to recruiting a kid's HS coach.
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Doc ... I'm not trying to assume anything. I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question.
Willard in 17-18 had a very similar situation to what Wojo will have next season, i.e. a veteran roster, two of the league's best players returning, etc.
Willard parlayed that into a 10-8 conference record, 8 seed and first weekend exit.
If Wojo does the same next year, don't you think people will be calling for his head, not calling him one of the BE's best coaches?
Again, Willard (nor the number of years it took) isn’t my or anyone’s else’s comparison point for Wojo’s future. Nor should it be. Marquette’s and Wojo’s agreed to expectations should be.
As to fans, again I just simply answered the question from Chico’s as to what I think it would take for (most) rationale fans to back off like they did for Willard, baring unforeseen circumstances.
So, my answer to your question about when the fan heat gets dialed down is when Point C is reached, just as it has for Willard. I think that has been true for any of the veteran coaches on that list and will be for any of the newer coaches.
What’s your tipping point? And, what is your ranking of BE coaches (the thread’s topic)? I want to see your ranking along with Cheeks and 82.
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Uh..2 flameout does not equal several, but have it your way.
Several = number of times in tournament. Sorry you don’t like the result, I don’t either and neither does Wojo, but doesn’t change that we have gone back several times in last three years.
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What’s your tipping point? And, what is your ranking of BE coaches (the thread’s topic)? I want to see your ranking along with Cheeks and 82.
Not sure what you mean by my tipping point.
But my rankings:
Wright
Cooley
McDermott
Willard
Wojo
Jordan
Leitao
Ewing
Steele
Mullin
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Not sure what you mean by my tipping point.
But my rankings:
Wright
Cooley
McDermott
Willard
Wojo
Jordan
Leitao
Ewing
Steele
Mullin
Thanks Pak. Interesting on McD. I always thought his team’s are great on offense and very pedestrian on D. There is always a level of underachievement there I think. I think recently, as in the last month, they have started winning some games with D.
Tipping point is when the fans back off (or my definition).
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For all the BE will be power conference every year folks, aside from Wright (and Wojo), are there more than two other guys you would want to lead MU? If not, where does the confidence in the conference come from? Take Wright out of the mix, and I would not want any of these stiffs running our program.
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For all the BE will be power conference every year folks, aside from Wright (and Wojo), are there more than two other guys you would want to lead MU? If not, where does the confidence in the conference come from? Take Wright out of the mix, and I would not want any of these stiffs running our program.
First, your ranking. This is not a fire Wojo thread, per se.
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Tipping point is when the fans back off (or my definition).
Gotcha.
I actually believe much of the criticism directed toward Wojo here is fair and valid. He's made strategic/roster errors that led to significant problems ... like being forced to play two sub-6' guards backed up with no rim protection last year, leading to an awful defense. And his inability to pull the team out of its late-season nosedive is troubling, unless Markus is more hurt than we've been led to believe.
But I also believe a lot of the most vocal criticism comes from people who are just pissed off that he's not Buzz.
Anyhow, I don't know if there is a tipping point for when fans back off. A deep tourney run next year might get some off his case for a few months, but they'll be back calling for his head if the team doesn't repeat that the next year. And the year after that. That's fine. Such is the life in big-time college athletics.
Me personally ... I'm a bit of a Wojo agnostic. I'm not yet a believer, but I won't rule out that he can be a good coach.
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For all the BE will be power conference every year folks, aside from Wright (and Wojo), are there more than two other guys you would want to lead MU? If not, where does the confidence in the conference come from? Take Wright out of the mix, and I would not want any of these stiffs running our program.
Simple. Major television deal, recruiting classes that are signed, past performance (which doesn’t always mean future returns), huge commitment by schools to succeed.
This conference was inexperienced this year and everyone knew that. Next year we take a step back up, not where it was last year, but better than this year.
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Several = number of times in tournament. Sorry you don’t like the result, I don’t either and neither does Wojo, but doesn’t change that we have gone back several times in last three years.
Not to be side with willie but I was curious who was right in this argument and if you type in definition of several on google it comes up as "more than two but not many" just saying
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Not to be side with willie but I was curious who was right in this argument and if you type in definition of several on google it comes up as "more than two but not many" just saying
Other definitions mean “more than one”.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/several
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Dr. B
Wright, followed by fill in the blank based off your preference. Cooley is probably best of the rest and not informed enough to go past him.
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Other definitions mean “more than one”.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/several
Thank you I can cleanse myself of any agreement with willie.
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Dr. B
Wright, followed by fill in the blank based off your preference. Cooley is probably best of the rest and not informed enough to go past him.
This conference has two NBA HOF’s as coaches....and MU plays each at least two times per yer, yet no opinions? Sorry Goose...that’s weak sauce.
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Dr. B
I said that I would not want any of these stiffs coaching at MU. That seems pretty straight forward to me. Aside from Wright, not much in the coaching cupboard any more in the BE.
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Dr. B
I said that I would not want any of these stiffs coaching at MU. That seems pretty straight forward to me. Aside from Wright, not much in the coaching cupboard any more in the BE.
Sorry Goose, and I mean this in a very respectful way, but essentially you are saying every coach in the Big East should be fired except Wright. That reads like an emotional rant and not an informed opinion. I think some of your posts could benefit from adding more specifics so the rest of us can understand your POV and history better. Posters here that get you, know you personally. The rest of us need context.
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Dr. B
Fair point. I think the best of the rest coaches in BE are guys that have a system in place and build off it. At the moment, Creighton, Providence, SH and St. John’s know the style of play they want to play and recruit within that box. All four programs likely high a somewhat low national ceiling, but likely will be as expected most years.
Would I fire every coach in the league if I were a fan of other programs? That really would depend on expectations I had of that program. The guy at Creighton probably is making the most out of little. So, he would be meeting my expectations. That said, my expectations for MU are higher than what Creighton should expect.
I love the players Mullins gets, but would question how hard he works. I am sure he wants to win big, but there appears to be a lot missing out there in regards to success.
I have read on here many times others questioning the abilities of other BE coaches and everyone seems to agree at the moment. I basically am taking dozens of other’s opinions and painting with a wide brush.
To sum it up, none of these guys seem to be destined for greatness moving forward. If MU had a job opening, I would not be hoping to land anyone on the BE list. Would you?
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Not sure what you mean by my tipping point.
But my rankings:
Wright
Cooley
McDermott
Willard
Wojo
Jordan
Leitao
Ewing
Steele
Mullin
This is very close to what I would have generated for a list, though I have a feeling Ewing might turn out to be pretty good if he stays in the college game.
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I want to see your ranking along with Cheeks and 82.
Wright
Wojo
Cooley, Willard, McDermott interchangeable
"Incompletes" for Jordan, Ewing, Steele
Leitao
Mullin
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It’s just Wright and then the rest. Like Goose, I wouldn’t want any of these other guys coaching MU. Cooley seems like a good coach but doesn’t excite me. McDermott is a big lummox who hasn’t really won anything at Creighton, though they do seem to get some good players (Creighton seems to be popping up in the FBI stuff, though.)
Now, if Mack and Holtmann were still in the conference? You’d better believe I’d take them over Wojo.
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Wright
Wojo
Cooley, Willard, McDermott interchangeable
"Incompletes" for Jordan, Ewing, Steele
Leitao
Mullin
I'd put Cooley and Willard over Wojo. What Cooley has been able to do at PC is very impressive. The job Willard did this year was amazing. I had SH pegged for last after losing 4 starters of that caliber.
I concur with the incompletes. We don't know enough about those guys yet to rank them.
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Wright
McDermott
Cooley
Willard
Steele
Jordan
Wojo
Leitao
Mullin
Ewing
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Wright
McDermott
Cooley
Willard
Steele
Jordan
Wojo
Leitao
Mullin
Ewing
What did Travis Steele accomplish in his one thoroughly mediocre season to deserve a ranking above three guys who've led teams to 20+ win seasons andthe NCAA tournament?
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I'd put Cooley and Willard over Wojo. What Cooley has been able to do at PC is very impressive. The job Willard did this year was amazing. I had SH pegged for last after losing 4 starters of that caliber.
Cooley has won 1 NCAA tournament game in 13 seasons as a college coach, including the last 8 at Providence. He had some NBA talent, too. His best team lost twice to Wojo's Ellenson team that didn't even go to the NIT. I believe PC also was expected to do better than a tie for last place this season. I think Cooley is good coach but I have seen no evidence that would make me trade Wojo for him. It's OK if we disagree.
Agree about SH this season, and I begrudgingly have to give Willard props for that. His first 5 years were significantly worse than Wojo's first 5 years, though.
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Cooley has won 1 NCAA tournament game in 13 seasons as a college coach, including the last 8 at Providence. He had some NBA talent, too. His best team lost twice to Wojo's Ellenson team that didn't even go to the NIT. I believe PC also was expected to do better than a tie for last place this season. I think Cooley is good coach but I have seen no evidence that would make me trade Wojo for him. It's OK if we disagree.
Agree about SH this season, and I begrudgingly have to give Willard props for that. His first 5 years were significantly worse than Wojo's first 5 years, though.
I admit I probably have a higher opinion of Cooley than most, because he won at Fairfield. Nobody wins at Fairfield. I think he's an excellent coach. He needs to bring in more talent than he has at PC, though.
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Recruiting is a huge part of coaching, and that has to be factored in. Cannot separate the two.
Cooley appears to be a good coach, but not sure on recruiting. Willard gets a lot out of his players and they have a “brand” of style, even though I hate how they play. Creighton has a style.
In my view Wojo wants to run a style, but hasn’t landed the full compliment of players to deliver on it. That falls on him, of course. But I also think we are closer to that vision now than we were, PG is big, an athletic 4.
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I admit I probably have a higher opinion of Cooley than most, because he won at Fairfield. Nobody wins at Fairfield.
My high school coach was a star at Fairfield in the 60s and is in their sports HOF.
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It sounds like a copout, but ranking coaches is really hard because their current job has to be factored in. The "would I take coach x over coach y" question depends on where I'm the hypothetical AD. Some coaches are good at keeping a middling program punching above their weight class, but if you hired them at a higher level school, wouldn't see an equal uptick in performance. For me, that's Cooley. Providence should probably be pretty happy to have him, and if I were hiring at a smallish east coast school, I'd prefer him to someone like Wojo. But at a place with more resources, I'd take Wojo's upside whereas I think Cooley sort of is what he is at this point.
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Couple = 2
Few = 3
Several = 4+
I’ve never heard someone use several to represent two regardless of what Webster’s says
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Couple = 2
Few = 3
Several = 4+
I’ve never heard someone use several to represent two regardless of what Webster’s says
You heard me use it that way, so you can strike never. 😀 and definition to back it up.
By the way, definition of few is more than one, but not starting at three.
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What did Travis Steele accomplish in his one thoroughly mediocre season to deserve a ranking above three guys who've led teams to 20+ win seasons andthe NCAA tournament?
It's not my ranking, but personally I was impressed with the stark change his team exhibited exiting the year vs. entering. They were better and it is an encouraging sign if evaluating a new coach or a new coach with a young team. So much needs to happen for him to be considered a success or 'top-coach', but it's one green shoot in my eyes.
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You heard me use it that way, so you can strike never. 😀 and sedition to back it up.
By the way, definition of few is more than one, but not starting at three.
I don’t know whether to admire or pity this mentality of your cheeks
(https://i.gifer.com/1eUN.gif)
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It's not my ranking, but personally I was impressed with the stark change his team exhibited exiting the year vs. entering. They were better and it is an encouraging sign if evaluating a new coach or a new coach with a young team. So much needs to happen for him to be considered a success or 'top-coach', but it's one green shoot in my eyes.
They did get better as the year went on, but were they a young team?
They started a senior, two juniors and two sophomores. The first two guys off the bench were seniors. They obviously lost some key players from the previous season, but they weren't especially young or inexperienced.
Regardless, Steele at best deserves an incomplete grade, not to be ranked above three coaches who had 20-win seasons and led teams to the tourney (IMO).
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They did get better as the year went on, but were they a young team?
They started a senior, two juniors and two sophomores. The first two guys off the bench were seniors. They obviously lost some key players from the previous season, but they weren't especially young or inexperienced.
Regardless, Steele at best deserves an incomplete grade, not to be ranked above three coaches who had 20-win seasons and led teams to the tourney (IMO).
I don't disagree with your last line depending on what you are ranking (this year's results, ability to be a sustained good coach, etc, etc). I was trying to communicate that it is a useful metric for a coach with a young team or new coach...the latter being Steele
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Steele did impress me as the year went on ... or at least his team did.
X developed into a dangerous, competitive team, and we were fortunate to have played them twice before they figured things out.
Hankins will be hard to replace, but otherwise most important players are underclassmen. Four 4-stars coming in for next season (per ESPN).
BEast will be tougher next season, and X will be a reason for it.
Steele stepped into the shoes of a very good coach; I give him an "incomplete" right now, but he looks like he might be a good one.
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I don’t know whether to admire or pity this mentality of your cheeks
(https://i.gifer.com/1eUN.gif)
I'm a pitbull, a grinder, it's what I'm paid to do. Battle, battle, battle. Of course in real life I am sweet, and do it with honey rather than vinegar.
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You people ranking McDermott higher than 9th are despicable.
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What did Travis Steele accomplish in his one thoroughly mediocre season to deserve a ranking above three guys who've led teams to 20+ win seasons andthe NCAA tournament?
Their record isn't anywhere close to an indicator of what they had to overcome to even look mediocre on paper. He had I would contend the league's most difficult job this year replacing a fairly long term and highly successful coach and two of the conference's best players in Bluiett and Macura. They were picked for 6th in the preseason poll, tied for 3rd, and was the 4 seed for the conference tournament. They took Villanova to OT in BE tourney and Texas to OT on the road in the NIT before falling by two.
I admit it's basically projection, an incomplete as MU82 gave him is fair I think. They came on strong and played their best basketball late in the year- a hallmark of well coached teams.
And please, don't act like I put him ahead of a murderer's row of coaches. The jury is definitely out on Jordan at Butler. Then Wojo, Leitao, Ewing, and Mullin- Ewing yet to be in NCAA in two seasons and NIT loss at home to Harvard, Wojo two NCAA embarrassments and choking away what should have been a conference title, Mullin one NCAA bid as one of last at large in and then embarrassed in that game, along with a losing conference record in a down year overall, and finally, Leitao, 2 NCAA's in 11 years.
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I contend no other major school would even hire Mullin or Ewing. They both got their jobs only because of their legend status at their schools, along with their name recognition in hoping to bring in recruits. Period.
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Their record isn't anywhere close to an indicator of what they had to overcome to even look mediocre on paper. He had I would contend the league's most difficult job this year replacing a fairly long term and highly successful coach and two of the conference's best players in Bluiett and Macura. They were picked for 6th in the preseason poll, tied for 3rd, and was the 4 seed for the conference tournament. They took Villanova to OT in BE tourney and Texas to OT on the road in the NIT before falling by two.
I admit it's basically projection, an incomplete as MU82 gave him is fair I think. They came on strong and played their best basketball late in the year- a hallmark of well coached teams.
And please, don't act like I put him ahead of a murderer's row of coaches. The jury is definitely out on Jordan at Butler. Then Wojo, Leitao, Ewing, and Mullin- Ewing yet to be in NCAA in two seasons and NIT loss at home to Harvard, Wojo two NCAA embarrassments and choking away what should have been a conference title, Mullin one NCAA bid as one of last at large in and then embarrassed in that game, along with a losing conference record in a down year overall, and finally, Leitao, 2 NCAA's in 11 years.
To amplify the pint on Coach Steele. He hustled and did two very impressive things at the onset. First he recruited 3 solid grad transfers all who ended up being contributors. Second he closed the deal on a five man incoming class composed of 3 bigs and 2 guards ( one of which we went after hard)
As pointed out he had the team performing very well by the end of the season. Bottom line is Steele reloaded and didn’t have to rebuild. The team is very well positioned for next year.
I just noticed he picked a very solid transfer immediately available to further the point.
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It’s just Wright and then the rest.
Sure is. He's got the field by a mile and then some.
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And yet it took Wright 5 years as a college head coach to get to his first NCAA tournament and 11 years to post his first NCAA tournament victory.
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And yet it took Wright 5 years as a college head coach to get to his first NCAA tournament and 11 years to post his first NCAA tournament victory.
After trudging the lowly ranks of lifting Hofstra out of the ash bin.
Year 4 at Villanova...S16
Year 5.. Elite 8
Definitely apples to apples of Wojo's tenure here ::)
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Wright showed his coaching chops at a low major D1 program and quickly took Villanova to national prominence. Hardly a trajectory to what is unfolding here, nor a background to prove patience has been earned already.
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Wright showed his coaching chops at a low major D1 program and quickly took Villanova to national prominence. Hardly a trajectory to what is unfolding here, nor a background to prove patience has been earned already.
And then struggled in the NCAA tournament for a number of years with howls from their fans to fire him for daring not to deliver to them that for which they were entitled.
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And then struggled in the NCAA tournament for a number of years with howls from their fans to fire him for daring not to deliver to them that for which they were entitled.
Everyone seems to forget there were calls to fire Wright in 2004 after three seasons with no NCAA appearances & before his first Sweet 16.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/how-villanovas-coach-went-from-nearly-fired-to-a-second-final-four/
Or that there were fan & media calls for him to be fired in 2011 after they lost 5 straight before a first round tourney exit.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/630868-big-east-tournament-is-this-the-end-for-villanova-and-coach-jay-wright
I'll be honest, I hate the Wright comparisons because as Parrish writes, most coaches that end up on the hot seat get there because they will ultimately be fired. Wright is a great coach. One of the best in the country. But he wasn't after 5 years. He wasn't after 10 years. He wasn't when he had a 13-19 record in his 18th season as a head coach.
But now? Yes.
So does Wojo deserve that kind of leash? Do we move the goalposts to 15-20 years to judge? I'd say of course not. But there have been improvements. The results from this year, regardless of the Hindenburg landing, were better than any of the years before. What frustrates me is I thought this would be the year where we determine that either "Wojo is definitely the guy" or "Wojo is definitely not the guy" and instead as the season ends, we're still not sure.
I don't want to give Wojo more time because I think he gets a bye on this year. I want to give him more time because I do still feel there's an upward trajectory to the program. Next year should be better than this. And even when Sam & Markus leave, there are potentially (always a dangerous word) foundational pieces like Joey, Brendan, & Torrence waiting in the wings. Players have definitely improved in their time here. Not just obvious guys like Markus, but Sacar, Theo, and Jajuan showed growth. There have been problems with the roster assembly, but we've moved away from having two small guards to seeing a future with guards like McEwen, Akanno, & Torrence with more length & athleticism. We have moved away from softer, less assertive centers to guys that are rugged enforcers.
Wojo's learning on the job, and the waiting sucks. I hate the feeling that today I feel like I don't really know any more about how he will pan out as a coach than I did a year ago. But as I get older, the idea of starting over again & asking the same questions about someone else for 5 or 10 years before we have any real idea is even more frustrating. Anyway...here's my rankings:
1) Jay Wright, obviously. Huge dropoff after him.
2) Ed Cooley, he hasn't broken through at the NCAA level, but seems to be a good game-planner & gets the most out of his guys.
3) Kevin Willard, his coaching job this year was really impressive. Starting to show he might not be a one-class coach.
4) Steve Wojciechowski, I can see the blueprint, taking longer than I hoped, but at least has a clue on both ends.
5) Doug McDermott, recruits well enough, gameplans well enough, but has been treading water a long time.
6) Dave Leitao, I can see what he's doing, and it's actually not terrible. He's done more in the past than anyone lower on this list.
7) Patrick Ewing, good talent evaluator, not there yet as a game coach. Feels like Wojo a few years ago.
8) Travis Steele, largely incomplete, but putting together a mix of veterans & young guys with talent.
9) Lavall Jordan, did well with Holtmann's guys, but hard to see the future trajectory.
10) Chris Mullin, he has our number, but that's about it. Faceplanted hard in March.
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I saw that SJUs AD was going to "sit down and have a talk" with Mullin. The gist was that the Johnnies are likely gonna be in the market for a new assistant.
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Everyone seems to forget there were calls to fire Wright in 2004 after three seasons with no NCAA appearances & before his first Sweet 16.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/how-villanovas-coach-went-from-nearly-fired-to-a-second-final-four/
Or that there were fan & media calls for him to be fired in 2011 after they lost 5 straight before a first round tourney exit.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/630868-big-east-tournament-is-this-the-end-for-villanova-and-coach-jay-wright
I'll be honest, I hate the Wright comparisons because as Parrish writes, most coaches that end up on the hot seat get there because they will ultimately be fired. Wright is a great coach. One of the best in the country. But he wasn't after 5 years. He wasn't after 10 years. He wasn't when he had a 13-19 record in his 18th season as a head coach.
But now? Yes.
So does Wojo deserve that kind of leash? Do we move the goalposts to 15-20 years to judge? I'd say of course not. But there have been improvements. The results from this year, regardless of the Hindenburg landing, were better than any of the years before. What frustrates me is I thought this would be the year where we determine that either "Wojo is definitely the guy" or "Wojo is definitely not the guy" and instead as the season ends, we're still not sure.
Frustrating because it doesn't just solve all questions, sure. But very little is ever that unambiguous. And I just can't understand the impatience on this board with Wojo (not you brew) despite this great comparison right in our conference backyard. Wright took the Nova job at age 39 with 7 years of head coaching experience at Hofstra. Before that he was an assistant for Massimino for 7 years at Nova and UNLV. Wojo took the MU job at age 37 after 5 years as an assistant to Coach K. Nova and MU are not particularly dissimilar programs.
I'm not saying that I'm sure Wojo is the next Jay Wright and that by 2030 MU will have two more national championships. But the patterns are so similar that it puts the burden of persuasion on the side trying to convince me that anything similar is unlikely to happen. Factor in that Wojo didn't even have the experience of being the head man that Wright did at Hofstra, and the accelerated results of Wojo's first 4 years vs Wright's, and there's even more reason to be bullish.
When you hire a guy who has never had a head gig and hasn't seen his 40th birthday, you are committing to growth and development as much as (if not more than) immediate results. We can have the debate whether MU's program should be above having to do that (I don't think it is, others here do). But that's where we are.
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brew and Burrow:
As an optimist, a pragmatist, a patient guy, a Marquette alum and a 40+ year Warriors fan who believes Wojo has the program going in the right direction, I agree with and appreciate your thorough, thought-provoking analyses.
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Everyone seems to forget there were calls to fire Wright in 2004 after three seasons with no NCAA appearances & before his first Sweet 16.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/how-villanovas-coach-went-from-nearly-fired-to-a-second-final-four/
Or that there were fan & media calls for him to be fired in 2011 after they lost 5 straight before a first round tourney exit.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/630868-big-east-tournament-is-this-the-end-for-villanova-and-coach-jay-wright
Oh I remember it well. Patience is not a strong suit with sports fans, especially MU fans or anyone that tasted success at one point because the demand is to get it again and again.
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I'm a pitbull, a grinder, it's what I'm paid to do. Battle, battle, battle. Of course in real life I am sweet, and do it with honey rather than vinegar.
That’s cool I can dig that. But where does having the humility to admit you’re wrong on occasion fit in?
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Frustrating because it doesn't just solve all questions, sure. But very little is ever that unambiguous. And I just can't understand the impatience on this board with Wojo (not you brew) despite this great comparison right in our conference backyard. Wright took the Nova job at age 39 with 7 years of head coaching experience at Hofstra. Before that he was an assistant for Massimino for 7 years at Nova and UNLV. Wojo took the MU job at age 37 after 5 years as an assistant to Coach K. Nova and MU are not particularly dissimilar programs.
I'm not saying that I'm sure Wojo is the next Jay Wright and that by 2030 MU will have two more national championships. But the patterns are so similar that it puts the burden of persuasion on the side trying to convince me that anything similar is unlikely to happen. Factor in that Wojo didn't even have the experience of being the head man that Wright did at Hofstra, and the accelerated results of Wojo's first 4 years vs Wright's, and there's even more reason to be bullish.
When you hire a guy who has never had a head gig and hasn't seen his 40th birthday, you are committing to growth and development as much as (if not more than) immediate results. We can have the debate whether MU's program should be above having to do that (I don't think it is, others here do). But that's where we are.
Here we go again. Wojo is greater than or equal to Wright.
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Here we go again. Wojo is greater than or equal to Wright.
Here we go again. Not at all what Burrow said.
He said the situations are similar. The future will decide if Wojo is greater than or equal to Wright.
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That’s cool I can dig that. But where does having the humility to admit you’re wrong on occasion fit in?
I've admitted it many times here, in fact did so again twice today and yesterday.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58190.msg1115459#msg1115459
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58490.msg1115671#msg1115671
How about same question back to you....does it occasionally fit in?
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I've admitted it many times here, in fact did so again twice today and yesterday.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58190.msg1115459#msg1115459
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58490.msg1115671#msg1115671
How about same question back to you....does it occasionally fit in?
I’m wrong often. Ask my wife
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I’m wrong often. Ask my wife
She did say that about you. ;)
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Anyway...here's my rankings:
1) Jay Wright, obviously. Huge dropoff after him.
2) Ed Cooley, he hasn't broken through at the NCAA level, but seems to be a good game-planner & gets the most out of his guys.
3) Kevin Willard, his coaching job this year was really impressive. Starting to show he might not be a one-class coach.
4) Steve Wojciechowski, I can see the blueprint, taking longer than I hoped, but at least has a clue on both ends.
5) Doug McDermott, recruits well enough, gameplans well enough, but has been treading water a long time.
6) Dave Leitao, I can see what he's doing, and it's actually not terrible. He's done more in the past than anyone lower on this list.
7) Patrick Ewing, good talent evaluator, not there yet as a game coach. Feels like Wojo a few years ago.
8) Travis Steele, largely incomplete, but putting together a mix of veterans & young guys with talent.
9) Lavall Jordan, did well with Holtmann's guys, but hard to see the future trajectory.
10) Chris Mullin, he has our number, but that's about it. Faceplanted hard in March.
Good arguments here. Here's my list:
1. Jay Wright. Case closed.
2. Ed Cooley: Does more with less than any other BE program not named "DePaul".
3. Kevin Willard: Remarkable work this year given the loss of 80% of their offense from 2017-18.
4. Steve Wojciechowski: Has improved across the board, but is the only BE coach that is a flight risk.
5. Doug McDermott: Live by the three, die by the three. Creighton needs balance.
6. Patrick Ewing: Has the upside, but still needs to coach the college game and not an NBA game.
7. Travis Steele: Could be moving up this list very soon. The Xavier track record of developing coaches is impressive.
8. Lavall Jordan: As noted above, what's the trajectory?
9. Chris Mullin: If he couldn't win with this year's team, how will he going forward?
10. Dave Leitao: Obviously, gets the Xs and Os, but DePaul has finished with the 9th or 10th seed in 5 of last 6 seasons.
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She did say that about you. ;)
Didn’t realize you two were gal pals!