Scholarship table
There's a strong odor surrounding all this. It appears to be bent and broken rules. What ethical price should you pay to build a winning program. I predict an ESPN documentary, 60 Minutes segment and a movie. This story makes Strike Lee's basketball movie look like child's play.
I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind? The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?If you read the article, sure as hell looks like ESPN is saying the schools did nothing wrong and anything controversial is on the side of A-Hope and the AAU program.
I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind? The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?
Which one of these schools hired the AAU coach's son to gain access and favor with the program?
Gain favor with a program that you have ties to for 30+ years and earned commitments from in those 30 years? Interesting. Well, since that AAU coach's son is gone now, I guess IU will never get another player from that AAU program since apparently the "Favor" is gone now. It's interesting how you keep ignoring the 30+ year relationship as if it never existed. Equally interesting the number of recruits that IU signed from Elite before Adams was ever employed. But hey, who's stopping you from telling the whole story...not me...you keep on going.
1) Someone posted the stat, 3 recruits in 3 years before Adams, 8 recruits in 12 months after his hiring. Do you really think that's coincidence?2) I explained the "Favor" you spoke of. Adams left for UNM on good terms seemingly, unlike how he left Tennessee. No reason the pipeline will dry up.3) No one is saying Adams is the only factor, but it seems like all of their best players suddenly headed to Indiana right after he was hired. Again, do you really think that's coincidence?
Pretty sure that the Bloomington Red and Indiana Elite are 2 different programs. THere has not been a 30 year history between IU and the Indiana Elite
Is that why they point out the hiring of the son right before the rule was changed? ESPN painted A-HOPE, Indiana Elite, and their connection to IU as being fishy. You can't possibly tell me you actually read the article and didn't see that.I don't know that any rules were broken, my guess is that anything close to infractions were technicalities in which the rules were changed after the fact, so IU will almost certainly get away with it. But it's certainly a bit hinky, and anyone who actually read the article would have to see that they're alleging that.And the reason it's questionable with IU and not the others is because the other schools you mention didn't hire the son of the guy running Indiana Elite. They also paint Tennessee and New Mexico as being possibly shady in this due to the same connection. Do you really not see that?Chicos, I know you defend Indiana, and I don't necessarily think that they did anything that they would be sanctioned or reprimanded for, but there's no way you can look at this article and not see that they are connecting some dodgy dots to Bloomington.
The fact we are even trying to pacify the ridiculous arguments of CBB is ludicrous. The Adams family housed Jurkin and Parea in their home. They provided shelter and food for God's sakes. Think they held any influence where either kid went to school??!!
Duke hired Chris Duhon's mother.
Kansas hired Carlos Boozer's father.
Iowa State hired Dalonte Hill to land Michael Beasley.
Hell, even Buzz Williams hired Jimmy Butler's JUCO assistant coach.
Yes, the rule has since changed. Crean couldn't hire Adams and still have landed those players. And Buzz couldn't have taken both Butler and Monarch.
The Adams family housed Jurkin and Parea in their home. They provided shelter and food for God's sakes. Think they held any influence where either kid went to school??!!
Yeah, Scott Monarch, a guy Buzz had known for 15 years before Jimmy Butler was ever on MU's radar.
Not true.Jimmy Butler signed with MU in April 2008.Monarch joined MU's staff in June 2008.
Even under today's rule, it would've been OK. Again, nice try.
Given that Monarch was hired for a non-coaching role at MU, hiring him and recruiting Butler would now be against the new rule.--------I'm not saying that Buzz did anything wrong--what he did was perfectly legal under NCAA rules at the time. So was IU's hiring Adams.
Duke hired Chris Duhon's mother. Kansas hired Carlos Boozer's father. Iowa State hired Dalonte Hill to land Michael Beasley. Hell, even Buzz Williams hired Jimmy Butler's JUCO assistant coach.So the question becomes if you KNEW for 100% fact that Drew Adams could bring eight elite-level recruits with him--and you knew for 100% fact that there was no NCAA rule against it--why would you NOT hire him? Yes, the rule has since changed. Crean couldn't hire Adams and still have landed those players. And Buzz couldn't have taken both Butler and Monarch.But at the time, both moves were legal.
Crean's line about not apologizing for working hard is precious.
This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.
They've been recruiting those kids for three years...I fail to see how that is easy. Three years effort is three years effort and it's not as if these are the only kids they've been recruiting, either. You fail to mention when stating "single AAU" team that many of them have come and gone from that AAU team. You also fail to mention that historically this AAU team has put kids in top programs all over the country, why on EARTH WOULDN'T YOU RECRUIT KIDS FROM A TOP AAU PROGRAM? DUH. For every Berkowitz there is a Roseboro. For every Blackledge, there is a Mbao. Etc, Etc, etc.We get it, you hate him and everything he does. We get it, you LOVE him and everything he does.There is a lot not to like about him...most would agree, but to suggest their recruiting hasn't been hard is rather comical and defies what just about every recruiting expert in the country has said about them the last few years. It's funny, so many here screaming about their recruiting when they were on probation and struggling, now they finally get the players and immediately it's cheating or lazy work. WOW. Nowhere do I see here that these kids, MOST FROM THE STATE OF INDIANA, might want to...wait for it....play for the flagship school in Indiana that has 5 national titles....nah, that couldn't be it. You guys are funny. I knew this would happen eventually. The piling on and piling on when they sucked would be a group circle jerk here, then when they started to land players it would be accusations of cheating, next on the 10 stages of grief will be dealing with their success. It's going to be pretty funny to watch some of you.....let me start off the quotes for some of you "it's about time, should have happened years ago".....
This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important. He's a horse's ass in every sense of the word and anybody...I mean anybody...who thinks Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or, most importantly, a better person than Buzz Williams is a horrendous judge of character.
The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important.
This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important. He's a horse's ass in every sense of the word and anybody...I mean anybody...who thinks Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or, most importantly, a better person than Buzz Williams is a horrendous judge of character
I agree with some of what you said MU84, but one I strongly disagree with is grouping McMorrow in with others as one of Buzz's misses. McMorrow not being at Marquette wasn't a matter of him not being skilled enough (we will never know), it was just bad luck and health issues. I realize he is playing now, but we don't know what risks he is taking and how much changed in that year he sat out. He seemed like a very skilled big guy and I thought he'd be very good for us (his stats at Tenn Tech don't mean a whole lot to me because he missed a full year and we don't know how much his illness may be holding him back).
84 - Highly unlikely Buzz Williams will be recruiting the likes of a Blackledge, Berkowitz, Hazel, etc - 6 to 7 years into his tenure at Marquette with a Final Four under his belt. Cream should have had a lot more recruitig clout after his Final Four and good regular season success - to where he shouldn't have had to recruit off the scrap heap. Cream never was able to assemble a roster of more than 5 or 6 high major players. U do tend to make a lot of apples to oranges arguments to support your bias, however.
No doubt though that Buzz missed on Roseboro, Mbao. Misses certainly happen in recruitig butthankfully Buzz has been ably replace such misses with Jae Crowder, DJO, and maybe TJ Taylor turns out to e a great replacement for Reggie Smith. Time will tell.
Well, I hope Buzz brings us to a Final four. And I didn't make a single apples-to-organges comparison. Each comparison was to a nearly identical situation.For example, Blackledge and Berkowitz were the 13th players on the depth chart in their respective seasons. In Buzz's first recruiting class, McMorrow filled the last scholarship. In his second, Mbao was the last guy recruited. This year, we still have two scholarships to fill, so an empty seat is in that role. Apples to apples.I disagree with your point about Crean not being able to build a roster of more than 5-6 high-major players. In 2006, 2007 and 2008, Crean actually played deeper into his bench than Buzz did this year. Buzz had 7 players with more than 10 mpg this year. Crean had 9 in 2006, 8 in 2007, and 9 in 2008. While you will probably mis-interpret this as some knock on Buzz, I think the difference is that Crean intentionally built a team with stars and role players, where Buzz is trying to meet a minimum talent requirement for all positions and then play the best of a bunch of interchangeable pieces. Two different strategies--not a sign of better recruiting.In the end, it doesn't make any meaningful difference on the court. Jamail Jones and Trend Blackledge had nearly identical stats their first seasons. http://bit.ly/mtGjEn The only real conclusion you can make is that Buzz's scrubs were rated higher than Crean's. Just Crean was able to replace his misses with guys like Trevor Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor.
84 - How many times do you need to be explained to that to compare what a coach is doing in his 7th year at the helm of a program, to a coach in is 1st or 2nd year at the helm - ir pretty much an apples to oranges comparison. Think Buzz has any more recruiting credibility after the Sweet 16 and his players trumpeting how good of cooach he is? I too hope Buzz takes us to a Final Four and think he will. I've said before and I'll say again I think Crean did a very good job during his time at MU. Whether or not it was Crean's strategy to recruit role players and sign Top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class is debatable at best. He doesn't seem to be following that strategy at Indiana now, does he? Perhaps a change in philosophy?? Dobutful - but the reality was he had a v ery difficult time selling kids on MU if there wasn't clear cut, immediate playing time available...
84 - How many times do you need to be explained to that to compare what a coach is doing in his 7th year at the helm of a program, to a coach in is 1st or 2nd year at the helm - ir pretty much an apples to oranges comparison. Think Buzz has any more recruiting credibility after the Sweet 16 and his players trumpeting how good of cooach he is?
I too hope Buzz takes us to a Final Four and think he will. I've said before and I'll say again I think Crean did a very good job during his time at MU. Whether or not it was Crean's strategy to recruit role players and sign Top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class is debatable at best.
He doesn't seem to be following that strategy at Indiana now, does he? Perhaps a change in philosophy?? Dobutful - but the reality was he had a v ery difficult time selling kids on MU if there wasn't clear cut, immediate playing time available...
Your argument is without merit.First, Raymonds, O'Neill, and Crean all recruited some great players in their very first season as head coach. The notion that a new coach gets a pass on his recruiting for the first four years of his career is complete bunk.Second, you forgot that Buzz actually had 18 years of coaching experience before he got to Marquette (when Crean got the job at MU, it was his 12 year in coaching). Recruiting Berkowitz came during Crean's 17th year in the business, Blackledge in his 21st.Recruiting McMorrow came during Buzz's 18th year in the business, Mbao in his 19th.They both missed on players at roughly the same point in their careers.Apples to apples.Of course its debatable! Because you're so wrong!We landed top 100 talent in 2000 (Merrit), 2001 (Diener & R Jackson), 2002 (Novak), 2003 (Mason), 2005 (James, Matthews, McNeal), 2006 (Hayward), 2007 (Mbakwe), 2008 (Taylor, N. Williams), and lined up for 2009 (E. Williams). So I'm really not sure where you got the idea that it was Crean's strategy to sign top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class.As I said Buzz's advantage seems to be recruiting better quality scrubs. Good for him. Kind of blunts the impact of losing a top 100 player like Erik Williams if he's a deep bench player.Jamail Jones--despite his top 100 rank--didn't get any more minutes than Blackledge. We'll see if he gets more in the future. Meanwhile, Crean seemed to go deeper into his bench--8 or 9 guys got more than 10 mpg in 2006-2008 compared to only 7 in 2010 and 2011 Maybe we could agree that on paper, Buzz recruits more talent, but Crean recruited more useable players.FInally, if Buzz doesn't fill those last two scholarships, then even Niv Berkowitz' meager performance will blow away the stats put up by that empty seat.
Based on your thinking--would you agree that Buzz really didn't do any work to recruit Jimmy Butler? After all, he's from the same exact JUCO as Fulce. Couldn't have put in any work there, right?
Pure Comedy!! It is absolutely hilarious how far you go to defend your guy, TC. I think Butler was in Buzz's first recruiting class...and then DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Maymon, Erik Williams (though you can credit him to Crean if you like).I do love how your are resorting to counting years as managers, video coordinators, assistant coaches, etc..as part of years coaching. Give Buzz 6 years of Head Coaching experience like your guy TC, and I highly doube we'll be pulling in retreads like Niv Berkowitz and Trend Blackledge
Let me make one more point about Crean and "hard work." I honestly believe that he's such a social climbing phony assh*ole that he married his wife strictly because her father was a well known coach, her brother Jim was a promising quarterback and he thought it would further his career. I have always believed that. That's how much I think of him.
Yes, I completely agree. There was no "hard work" involved in signing Butler. I think Buzz has even talked about how lucky that was. He sure as hell hasn't talked about the "hard work" he put in there.And I don't "hate Crean for his leadership quotes." I hate him because he's a phony douche bag. I don't know anything about Buzz's "life lessons," probably because he doesn't give them to anybody other than the kids on the team.
Pure Comedy!! It is absolutely hilarious how far you go to defend your guy, TC. I think Butler was in Buzz's first recruiting class...and then DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Maymon, Erik Williams (though you can credit him to Crean if you like).
I do love how your are resorting to counting years as managers, video coordinators, assistant coaches, etc..as part of years coaching.
Give Buzz 6 years of Head Coaching experience like your guy TC, and I highly doube we'll be pulling in retreads like Niv Berkowitz and Trend Blackledge
Maybe, but it wasn't like any of the high majors were beating down his door when he was healthy either. ESPN had him rated as a 40 because he was so off the radar they couldn't evaluate him. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/66348/liam-mcmorrow He was the description of a project....the same description that some people here rag constantly on depending on who the coach was. Apparently a project is a complete joke if one coach did it but it was merely a respected gamble if another does it. Go figure. Certainly he could have been a diamond in the rough, but those are rare. It's a shame about his illness. Obviously the Tennessee Tech doctors felt better about his prognosis than ours....or perhaps Buzz and staff realized he probably wasn't up to this level once it was learned his illness could be controlled with medication. Nevertheless, hope he does well in life.
About to be headed for the ignore button 84 but one last reply: I never said Buzz was "inexperienced" as a recruiter - I said that Buzz didn't have nearly the recruiting equity or clout that a PROVEN head coach like Tom Crean would have. Buzz was a virtual unknown with a 14-17 record at UNO to tout and take out with him on the recruiting trail. He was selling MU and Crean for Crean...but then when he became the head guy...he had to sell himself and his limited track record.
It is absolutely amazing how you contort and twist things to fit your warped agenda. All along my point has been give Buzz 6 years at the helm of MU and I doubt you will see retread recruits like Berkowitz, Blackledge, Roseboro, Mbao.
The fact Jamail Jones can't get on the floor is a testament to the talent Buzz has gotten to MU in just 3 short years.
Never would a Top 100 kid ride the pine under Crean, because there wasn't much competition on the roster for the likes of a Hayward, James, McNeal or Matthews to compete with...
As for Blackledge's numbers - pretty sure he put up his best numbers as a Senior at Marquette under Buzz -
yet you want to compare an 18-year old Freshman to a 20-21 year old Junior JUCO transfer. Okay.
I think 84 needs to get a life. He seems to to have far too much time for endless responses.....