Report: FBI Investigated Claims That Bob Knight Groped Women

[rocket surgeon]

  "On the other hand this, to use a tired cliche, seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Seriously, is anyone here naive enough to believe the arne duncan/john king or anyone else in the previous Administration gives two poops about how schools handle sex assault accusations? This is them throwing more red meat to their alt-left base


  just win baby, eyyn'er?

[rocket surgeon]

Change is coming, announced yesterday

https://www.ed.gov/news/speeches/secretary-devos-prepared-remarks-title-ix-enforcement

well it better, as this usc case is exhibit A, B, C and D.  the other case usc facked up(read-ruined another guys life) was also represented by boermeester's attorney, mark hathaway.  boermeester is 2 classes shy of graduation and usc tried to keep he and katz from contacting each other, directly or indirectly? seriously?

  so much wrong here

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/20640113/judge-stays-usc-trojans-expulsion-matt-boermeester

[GGGG]

well it better, as this usc case is exhibit A, B, C and D.  the other case usc facked up(read-ruined another guys life) was also represented by boermeester's attorney, mark hathaway.  boermeester is 2 classes shy of graduation and usc tried to keep he and katz from contacting each other, directly or indirectly? seriously?

  so much wrong here

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/20640113/judge-stays-usc-trojans-expulsion-matt-boermeester

Judicial over reach is a problem...unless it is defense of a white male eyyn'er?

[Golden Avalanche]

Allreddy vewd az da gud auld daze, ai'na.

The C-SPAN historian survey ranked Obama as #12 in his first appearance. Certainly took me aback that he'd be in the rarefied air near the ones easily rated in the first ten but obviously for the people who spend their lives every day critiquing the 44 men they saw 2009-2017 as a time period of accomplishment.

[rocket surgeon]

Judicial over reach is a problem...unless it is defense of a white male eyyn'er?

  "Hathaway previously represented former USC football player Bryce Dixon in a similar case. In 2015, Dixon was reinstated to the university as a student after a Title IX investigation previously led to his expulsion."

 hate to pee on your party here sully, but,  ummmm, bryce dixon was african american

  but thanks for playing

[GGGG]

  "Hathaway previously represented former USC football player Bryce Dixon in a similar case. In 2015, Dixon was reinstated to the university as a student after a Title IX investigation previously led to his expulsion."

 hate to pee on your party here sully, but,  ummmm, bryce dixon was african american

  but thanks for playing

Yay!  You can defend judicial activism when benefits black males too!!!

[B. McBannerson]

The over rotation has led to too many of these guilty until proven innocent events.  I'm troubled that anyone would find this demeaning or somehow a problem by this administration or any administration to try and get these things right.  The accused lives can be destroyed, too.  This is a difficult subject.

The timing of the USC incident, where a judge yesterday said USC can't kick him out, but also preventing him from returning to campus is not going to help.   It will now go to trial.

In New York, a woman who accused two football players of rape, wrongly, is now begging that she doesn't get jail time.  The mean, were suspended from the team, no justice for them.

This article came out today with 5 other examples (not the ones we all hear about, Rolling Stone, Duke, etc) and some statistics around fake accusations.   Rape is horrible, and there are countless sexual assaults that happen where the victim does not receive justice, the aggressor gets off.  This does not mean we should stack the deck so heavily that innocent men are having lives severely hampered because his partner wants revenge.

"One university leader was rightly appalled when he was asked by an Office for Civil Rights official: 'Why do you care about the rights of the accused?'" – Betsy DeVos

A few stats that stood out. 

Of all criminal complaints, rape cases are false by a 4:1 margin.

A Midwestern City study showed 41% of rape cases were false.  FBI shows national average around 8%

USAF examination found 46% of rape allegations false, with 27% of those where the victim recanted their story.

We have over rotated to the point that the fundamental belief in this country of fairness has been tarnished.

https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2017/09/09/why-the-trump-administration-is-rewriting-campus-sexual-assault-rules-5-men-who-n2379071

[B. McBannerson]

The C-SPAN historian survey ranked Obama as #12 in his first appearance. Certainly took me aback that he'd be in the rarefied air near the ones easily rated in the first ten but obviously for the people who spend their lives every day critiquing the 44 men they saw 2009-2017 as a time period of accomplishment.

I'm surprised they didn't have him top 5, I mean whom else is able to secure a Nobel Peace Prize nomination 11 days into office.  The amount of peace generated in those 11 days had to be some kind of record.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The over rotation has led to too many of these guilty until proven innocent events.  I'm troubled that anyone would find this demeaning or somehow a problem by this administration or any administration to try and get these things right.  The accused lives can be destroyed, too.  This is a difficult subject.

Again, see my earlier post. What DeVos is threatening to do doesn't change anything. It merely strips away guidance which will only cause more confusion. It may even open the door for universities to be even stricter.

This article came out today with 5 other examples (not the ones we all hear about, Rolling Stone, Duke, etc) and some statistics around fake accusations.   Rape is horrible, and there are countless sexual assaults that happen where the victim does not receive justice, the aggressor gets off.  This does not mean we should stack the deck so heavily that innocent men are having lives severely hampered because his partner wants revenge.

Please explain to me how the deck is heavily stacked against men. I see this claim a lot but most never articulate how the deck is stacked.

A Midwestern City study showed 41% of rape cases were false.  FBI shows national average around 8%

This stat is from a 1994 study that has since been debunked repeatedly. The author never clearly defines false reports and simply categorized them as whatever the police determined as a false report. Which you can imagine in a small, rural, midwestern town in the 80s (he collected data from 1978-1987) is going to be a lot of reports.

The FBI average of 8% is a commonly cited one. What people don't tell you is that it is the FBI stats from 1997. Since then the average has lowered to 2-8%. Why people use the 1997 stat when there are more recent ones is interesting. The Department of Justice puts it between 3-8% and has done studies on other crimes which have similar false reporting rates. FBI also only tracks "forcible rapes" meaning that some sort of physical violence was used in the process. It doesn't track drug facilitated and coercive assaults, the latter of which is not illegal but is against university codes of conduct.

USAF examination found 46% of rape allegations false, with 27% of those where the victim recanted their story.

These stats are from a 1985 study that has been repeatedly debunked as well. The study relied on either the accuser recanting (which could mean the report was false or could mean that they faced pressure to recant), refusing to take a polygraph, or failing a polygraph. Polygraphs have been proven to be psuedo-science and completely ineffective when used to determine truth in traumatic situations. Polygraphs rely on reading things like increased blood pressure. The test doesn't take into account that reliving a traumatic experience (such as a rape) is going to cause physiological reactions that would register as a lie on a polygraph test.

Don't you think its concerning that this author has to use numbers from studies not done in this century in order to prove his point?

This article came out today with 5 other examples (not the ones we all hear about, Rolling Stone, Duke, etc)

You have to be careful with these. Due to FERPA only one side of the story can be told and they always paint a very sympathetic picture that isn't always true. And some of these cases such as the Duke LAX case are actual issues with individuals instead of cases. The young woman in that case had a nutjob lawyer who lied and cheated to try and win his case. That doesn't mean that something terrible didn't happen to that young woman. People also don't understand that effect that trauma has on the brain. Rape survivors often have trouble given accurate detail to investigators because their memories are literally fragmented by the trauma. And oftentimes if they get one detail about the timeline wrong, the investigators will dismiss the case as false. A common occurrence is survivors claiming that they were raped for hours when it was actually only a few minutes because to them it literally seemed like hours.

But yes, I am 100% sure that there are cases where the university gets it wrong. We always need to be looking for ways to improve the process. But I'm curious why the few times universities get it wrong is justification for rewriting the whole system....but the same people think the judicial system is fine even though there are plenty of cases where they get it wrong too.

[GGGG]

The over rotation has led to too many of these guilty until proven innocent events.  I'm troubled that anyone would find this demeaning or somehow a problem by this administration or any administration to try and get these things right. 

Yeah you also don't think Redskins is racist, so excuse me for thinking your logic is warped.

[GGGG]

Please explain to me how the deck is heavily stacked against men. I see this claim a lot but most never articulate how the deck is stacked.

It isn't.

He and others here have bought into the myth of the victimization of the white male, which extreme forms results in what we witnessed at Charlottesville. 

[tower912]

This isn't  the argument Jamie made when the accused played for Buzz.  And I readily admit that was handled incredibly poorly by so many at Marquette.

[GGGG]

This isn't  the argument Jamie made when the accused played for Buzz.  And I readily admit that was handled incredibly poorly by so many at Marquette.

Huh.  It's almost as if he has an agenda.

And Buzz did now what he did then, he would have (and should have) been fired.

[brewcity77]

Please explain to me how the deck is heavily stacked against men. I see this claim a lot but most never articulate how the deck is stacked.

They have to deal with higher salaries and preferential treatment. How is that fair? 

[jsglow]

TAMU, if you would kindly read the article from the Atlantic that Eng referenced.  Please comment on how you see the case.  Let's stipulate that we don't have all the information and that the report of the actual incident is as described by the two participants who really told a pretty similar story.  So bottom line, I'm asking you to offer your evaluation strictly based on what you read.

The reason I ask is that my personal read is that this was a clear overreach. 'Day after regret' kind of case.  No he didn't have the infamous paperwork in triplicate.  No we don't think he asked ever 10 seconds and got a verbal affirmative response.  I'm just interested in whether you think the actions crossed the line.  Because in my mind that helps me evaluate the mindset of a clearly educated and professional Title IX guy.  Thanks. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU, if you would kindly read the article from the Atlantic that Eng referenced.  Please comment on how you see the case.  Let's stipulate that we don't have all the information and that the report of the actual incident is as described by the two participants who really told a pretty similar story.  So bottom line, I'm asking you to offer your evaluation strictly based on what you read.

The reason I ask is that my personal read is that this was a clear overreach. 'Day after regret' kind of case.  No he didn't have the infamous paperwork in triplicate.  No we don't think he asked ever 10 seconds and got a verbal affirmative response.  I'm just interested in whether you think the actions crossed the line.  Because in my mind that helps me evaluate the mindset of a clearly educated and professional Title IX guy.  Thanks.

Well he was found not responsible for sexual misconduct. This really comes down to whether or not he tried to friend her on facebook after the no contact letter.  He says he didn't but she says he did. Just like a restraining order,  violating a no contact order is a serious violation. If he did it then the response was warranted.

I do see two concerns though. First is the claim that the university told him not to discuss the case with anyone. We warn students not to compromise possible witnesses by getting stories straight.  But students are free to discuss their own case with whoever they wish. The second is the timing.  Incident was reported in November  but the hearing was in April. Cases are supposed to be handled in 60 days. Extensions can be requested when appropriate but that's very long.

[B. McBannerson]

use you believe in their opinion, or debunkers because they actually debunked something?   

Have you read the recently published book called The Campus Rape Frenzy: The Attack on Due Process at America's Universities?.  In my view, this should be required reading of Title IX college administrators.  One of the authors a former NY Times employee of 8 years.


If their data is used, they would argue they have debunked some of the conventional wisdom and data points thrown around.  I've found in my many years that those claiming debunking usually comes down one's opinion over another.  True debunking is done with facts, but often doesn't occur and is wrapped into more opinions.

Why do I think the deck is stacked against men, one of your comments earlier in this thread on the USC case, for one.  The male goes in already at a disadvantage in today's environment.  You even said that despite the claims by the woman at USC that her partner had done NOTHING wrong, she could be suffering from battered syndrome. Think about that for a minute.  Even when the other person says consensual and nothing happened, we have an extra layer of defense now where we can claim she's not totally mentally able to make the claims.  That is stacking the deck.  The 2011 implementation of Preponderance of Evidence is stacking the deck.

[B. McBannerson]

It isn't.

He and others here have bought into the myth of the victimization of the white male, which extreme forms results in what we witnessed at Charlottesville.

Yes, stacking the deck.  Stuart Taylor, former NY Times and Baltimore Sun reporter in conjunction with KC Johnson, professor at Brooklyn college who wrote one of the more damning books on the Duke Lacrosse case.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-johnson-taylor-campus-sexual-assault-20170303-story.html

Yes, stacking the deck.

[B. McBannerson]

Yeah you also don't think Redskins is racist, so excuse me for thinking your logic is warped.

I have two posts about the Redskins and neither of them make any claim whatsoever on the racial makeup of the name.  I said the court decision was correct in my opinion, the gov't shouldn't be dictating what is and isn't offensive which is how they ruled.  That is an enormously slippery slope which undercuts the very fabric of this nation if we were to do that.

[B. McBannerson]

Are current college rape statistics correct?  Or have they been debunked?  New book, this was on CNN a few months ago.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/01/28/are-campus-rape-statistics-accurate.cnn

[GGGG]

I have two posts about the Redskins and neither of them make any claim whatsoever on the racial makeup of the name.  I said the court decision was correct in my opinion, the gov't shouldn't be dictating what is and isn't offensive which is how they ruled.  That is an enormously slippery slope which undercuts the very fabric of this nation if we were to do that.

Don't lie Chicos.

[GGGG]

Yes, stacking the deck.  Stuart Taylor, former NY Times and Baltimore Sun reporter in conjunction with KC Johnson, professor at Brooklyn college who wrote one of the more damning books on the Duke Lacrosse case.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-johnson-taylor-campus-sexual-assault-20170303-story.html

Yes, stacking the deck.

Keep fighting for the white man Chicos!!!  Everything is stacked against you!!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

use you believe in their opinion, or debunkers because they actually debunked something?   

Have you read the recently published book called The Campus Rape Frenzy: The Attack on Due Process at America's Universities?.  In my view, this should be required reading of Title IX college administrators.  One of the authors a former NY Times employee of 8 years.


If their data is used, they would argue they have debunked some of the conventional wisdom and data points thrown around.  I've found in my many years that those claiming debunking usually comes down one's opinion over another.  True debunking is done with facts, but often doesn't occur and is wrapped into more opinions.

Why do I think the deck is stacked against men, one of your comments earlier in this thread on the USC case, for one.  The male goes in already at a disadvantage in today's environment.  You even said that despite the claims by the woman at USC that her partner had done NOTHING wrong, she could be suffering from battered syndrome. Think about that for a minute.  Even when the other person says consensual and nothing happened, we have an extra layer of defense now where we can claim she's not totally mentally able to make the claims.  That is stacking the deck.  The 2011 implementation of Preponderance of Evidence is stacking the deck.

So no comments on all of your studies being from 20+ years ago.

Your first example of "stacking the deck" would only be accurate if universities completely discounted a person's testimony just because of the possibility of battered woman syndrome. They weighed her testimony against the testimony of multiple witnesses and found the multiple witnesses to be more credible. Happens in the courts as well. We also don't know what her testimony was as well. It is entirely possible that she told the university that she was being abused but then told a different story later in order to save face with her abuser. As I mentioned previously in this thread I have interviewed victims of abuse before who have told me that they were regularly having the sh*t beat out of them but then later they testify in support of their abuser. Some legitimately wanted to save their abuser and others were hoping that he would get expelled but had to take his side in case he wasn't. Is your advice to universities "pretend that battered women's syndrom doesn't exist?"

Your second example is actually an example of how the decks were stacked against accusers before 2011. The vast majority of universities use the preponderance of the information standard for all cases (not just sexual violence), it is considered a best practice in the field. Prior to 2011, many universities had set up special procedures for sexual assault where a higher standard of evidence had to be reached in order to find a student responsible. The deck was purposefully stacked against accusers. The 2011 guidance made it so sexual violence was treated like any other violation of the student code of conduct. So asking for a special standard of evidence for those accused of sexual violence is actually stacking the deck for the accused. Now, if you want to advocate that the guidance change so that the standard of evidence has to match all other conduct violation cases but leave it up to schools as to where that standard is (or make all cases use the clear and convincing standard for all cases) then I could have that conversation. But advocating that those accused of sexual violence deserve to have a standard of evidence higher than all other conduct violations is a non-option for me.

Is that the only way you think the deck is "stacked"? Because if its just one thing, then I think a simple update to the 2011 guidance would be appropriate. But what I have been sensing is that you want to throw the whole system out and start over.

[jsglow]

Well he was found not responsible for sexual misconduct. This really comes down to whether or not he tried to friend her on facebook after the no contact letter.  He says he didn't but she says he did. Just like a restraining order,  violating a no contact order is a serious violation. If he did it then the response was warranted.

I do see two concerns though. First is the claim that the university told him not to discuss the case with anyone. We warn students not to compromise possible witnesses by getting stories straight.  But students are free to discuss their own case with whoever they wish. The second is the timing.  Incident was reported in November  but the hearing was in April. Cases are supposed to be handled in 60 days. Extensions can be requested when appropriate but that's very long.

Cool, thanks.  I hadn't focused on the no contact order and I agree that violating that is a pretty big deal.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Cool, thanks.  I hadn't focused on the no contact order and I agree that violating that is a pretty big deal.

One other thing about no contact orders that I don't think is commonly known. In the vast majority of cases when a no contact order is given, it is given to both parties. Part of equitable treatment for both. The accused can't contact the accuser, but the accuser also can't contact the accused. I've seen cases before where accusers are sanctioned because they violated the no contact order. The one thing that might "stacked" against the accused in this aspect is that if they have some area where they overlap such as they live in the same dorm or have the same class, it is usually the accused that gets moved. I can understand both sides of the argument. It sucks that a false accusation could potentially force someone to temporarily move or switch classes. But I also don't think its right because someone in your dorm assaulted you, you have to move.

The interim accommodations required in these cases sometimes makes people upset because all that's required is an accusation. They claim there's no due process but that's how it works in the criminal justice system too. Someone doesn't have to be convicted for a restraining order to be put into place. A restraining order can be issued after a judicial review just like a no contact order can be issued after a university review.