Can we all now agree...

[romey]

WVU took a minor miracle to beat Cleveland State.  Let's see how Wisconsin does at Purdue, my guess is at no point in the game will they trail by 25 points.

I love all you guys (no, not that way) but Wisconsin will never trail by 25 because the final score will be something like 43 to 41.

[Skatastrophy]

I love all you guys (no, not that way) but Wisconsin will never trail by 25 because the final score will be something like 43 to 41.

There's no reason to put that in teal.

[MDMU04]

I still question why so many think that Juco transfers or players returning from injury are assumed to be on a par with true freshman in terms of skills development, maturity, "playing away from home," physical development, etc.

I don't see how it matters if a junior spent his first two seasons at MU or at Indian Hills CC--he's still two years more mature, has been coached and developed skills, spent time in the weight room, has learned to deal with living in a dorm, traveling to games, playing out of state, etc.

The only difference is that he has not spent two years learning one particular coach's game plan.  And I have to ask if it really takes more than two or three months to become proficient?  Bo Ryan managed to put together a decently coached team in just a few weeks for his university games team--I would think that two to three months would be enough for a juco to grasp

There is no reason for the assumption that a first-team Juco player would not contribute significantly.

Nowhere in my previous post did I state that our JUCO transfers were "on par with true freshman in terms of skills development, maturity, "playing away from home," physical development, etc."

Do you remember how Jimmy Butler looked on the court at the beginning of last season?  How did he look at the end of the year in comparison to the beginning?  There is no way you can argue that he came in to the program as good of a player as he was at the end of last year.  Whether it's adapting to the system or the level of competition is up for debate.  It's likely a combination of the two.  But he was a better player at the end of last year than the beginning.  That is a fact.

I won't deny that playing basketball at the JUCO level will give someone added experience over a high school senior, because that is clearly the case.  It also allows someone to adapt to the life of a student athlete.

But at the same time, you cannot deny that there is an adjustment period that a player will go through going from JUCO to the Big East.  A couple weeks, a couple months, who knows how long it takes.  A lot of that has to do with the individual.  The learning curve for some players is shorter than others.  And right now we have two players on the roster that are being counted on to make big contributions to this team going through this adjustment period.

It's also somewhat unfair to expect a JUCO transfer (a junior in eligibility) to come in and immediately contribute the way he would had he come in to the program as a freshman and spent the two years there, playing for the coach and against Big East opposition.  

[Lennys Tap]

I see.   So if I used the word rout instead of annihilate.,..the panties would not have wadded?


Dude, seek help.  Really


ob·ses·sion    (əb-sěsh'ən, ŏb-)  
n.  

   1. Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.
   2. A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.

ob·ses'sion·al adj., ob·ses'sion·al·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
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No. You don't see. You made a simple misstatement of fact. No big deal really, but when you repeated it for the second time in this thread I and others pointed it out. The normal reply would have been thanks, my mistake, end of story. Instead you follow a two word acknowledgement with paragraghs absolving and mitigating your error. Throw in a little old fashioned name calling at the end and you have the Chicos version of "my mistake".

[Marquette84]

Nowhere in my previous post did I state that our JUCO transfers were "on par with true freshman in terms of skills development, maturity, "playing away from home," physical development, etc."

Nor did I quote you.

Many people--including you--made comments that reflect an assumption of low expectations for a host of reasons.  That is evident based on the fact that they are now surprised by even a modest level of success.

My comment is that if you look at the performance of other juco 1st team all-Americans, it was wrong to have those low expectations to begin with.

Do you remember how Jimmy Butler looked on the court at the beginning of last season?  How did he look at the end of the year in comparison to the beginning?  There is no way you can argue that he came in to the program as good of a player as he was at the end of last year.  Whether it's adapting to the system or the level of competition is up for debate.  It's likely a combination of the two.  But he was a better player at the end of last year than the beginning.  That is a fact.

Well first, Butler wasn't a first team JUCO-AA, he was 2nd team.  

Second, I disagree that Butler didn't look good early in the year.  Butler's lack of participation early is more strongly infulenced by the fact that James, McNeal, Hayward, and Matthews got most of the offensive looks.  Butler was a strong defender out of the gate, but was not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option--rightly so. Some did question why he wasn't given a bigger role in the offense earlier in the season--but its hard to argue with giving the ball and minutes to Haward and Matthews.

While you claim it was that he "adapted to the system or level of competition," the biggest factor in his contribution late in the season is that he was unleashed by the head coach in order to replace James points (which Acker could not accomplish alone).  

I won't deny that playing basketball at the JUCO level will give someone added experience over a high school senior, because that is clearly the case.  It also allows someone to adapt to the life of a student athlete.

But at the same time, you cannot deny that there is an adjustment period that a player will go through going from JUCO to the Big East.  A couple weeks, a couple months, who knows how long it takes.  A lot of that has to do with the individual.  The learning curve for some players is shorter than others.  And right now we have two players on the roster that are being counted on to make big contributions to this team going through this adjustment period.

The problem is that most JUCO 1st team AAs don't have this "adjustment" period you claim exists.

Here's the 2008 list.  Once again, most were regular contributors on their teams right away.  I've posted their  1st / 2nd year contributions:
Cory Cooperwood - Wright State - 24 mpg 9.4 ppg 33 starts / 24 mpg 9.1 ppg 16 starts
Devron Bostick - Minnesota - 11 mpg, 4.0 no starts / 11 mpg, 4.1 ppg, no starts
Bobby Maze - 25 mpg, 8.2 ppg  28 starts / 23 mpg, 7.9 ppg, 12 starts
Bryan Sherrer - So. Alabama 21 mpg, 5.3 ppg, 11 starts / 30 mpg, 11.2 ppg 16 sarts
Eric Tramiel - No. Texas 24 mpg, 12.0 ppg 19 starts / 28.2 mpg, 11.1 ppg, 11 starts.
Derwin Kitchen - FSU - 26 mpg, 7.9 ppg, 17 starts / 27 mpt, 8.3 ppg, 14 starts
Roderick Flemings - Hawaii - 35 mpg, 16.6 ppg, 29 starts / 35 ppt, 15.0 ppg, 10 starts
Mario Little, Kansas - 12 mpg, 4 ppg, only 3 starts injured / redshirt year

The interesting thing is that with only one exception, most came in and contributed right away, but did not increase their production the 2nd year.  They didn't need an adjustment period.  

Thus, when we look at the data, the expectations for a 1st team juco--based on the data we have available--is that they should be expected to come in and contribute near 100% their first season--and whatever we see the first season is most likely what we'll seen the 2nd year.

It's also somewhat unfair to expect a JUCO transfer (a junior in eligibility) to come in and immediately contribute the way he would had he come in to the program as a freshman and spent the two years there, playing for the coach and against Big East opposition.  

Actually, now that I've provided two years of data, it is fair to expect them to contribute the first year, and unfair to expect much more after that.  

I've checked the facts--two years in a row, most first team JUCO AAs are contributing at a high level--even starting--for their teams.  And they are at a near 100% level from the start.

The generally held belief that we should have had low expectations because Buycks and DJO were JUCOs and needed time is simply not based on fact.  

I think there is a large measure of people who set low expectations in order to avoid being disappointed later.  

[MDMU04]

Nor did I quote you.

Many people--including you--made comments that reflect an assumption of low expectations for a host of reasons.  That is evident based on the fact that they are now surprised by even a modest level of success.

My comment is that if you look at the performance of other juco 1st team all-Americans, it was wrong to have those low expectations to begin with.



Well first, Butler wasn't a first team JUCO-AA, he was 2nd team.  

Second, I disagree that Butler didn't look good early in the year.  Butler's lack of participation early is more strongly infulenced by the fact that James, McNeal, Hayward, and Matthews got most of the offensive looks.  Butler was a strong defender out of the gate, but was not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option--rightly so. Some did question why he wasn't given a bigger role in the offense earlier in the season--but its hard to argue with giving the ball and minutes to Haward and Matthews.

While you claim it was that he "adapted to the system or level of competition," the biggest factor in his contribution late in the season is that he was unleashed by the head coach in order to replace James points (which Acker could not accomplish alone).  


The problem is that most JUCO 1st team AAs don't have this "adjustment" period you claim exists.

Here's the 2008 list.  Once again, most were regular contributors on their teams right away.  I've posted their  1st / 2nd year contributions:
Cory Cooperwood - Wright State - 24 mpg 9.4 ppg 33 starts / 24 mpg 9.1 ppg 16 starts
Devron Bostick - Minnesota - 11 mpg, 4.0 no starts / 11 mpg, 4.1 ppg, no starts
Bobby Maze - 25 mpg, 8.2 ppg  28 starts / 23 mpg, 7.9 ppg, 12 starts
Bryan Sherrer - So. Alabama 21 mpg, 5.3 ppg, 11 starts / 30 mpg, 11.2 ppg 16 sarts
Eric Tramiel - No. Texas 24 mpg, 12.0 ppg 19 starts / 28.2 mpg, 11.1 ppg, 11 starts.
Derwin Kitchen - FSU - 26 mpg, 7.9 ppg, 17 starts / 27 mpt, 8.3 ppg, 14 starts
Roderick Flemings - Hawaii - 35 mpg, 16.6 ppg, 29 starts / 35 ppt, 15.0 ppg, 10 starts
Mario Little, Kansas - 12 mpg, 4 ppg, only 3 starts injured / redshirt year

The interesting thing is that with only one exception, most came in and contributed right away, but did not increase their production the 2nd year.  They didn't need an adjustment period.  

Thus, when we look at the data, the expectations for a 1st team juco--based on the data we have available--is that they should be expected to come in and contribute near 100% their first season--and whatever we see the first season is most likely what we'll seen the 2nd year.



Actually, now that I've provided two years of data, it is fair to expect them to contribute the first year, and unfair to expect much more after that.  

I've checked the facts--two years in a row, most first team JUCO AAs are contributing at a high level--even starting--for their teams.  And they are at a near 100% level from the start.

The generally held belief that we should have had low expectations because Buycks and DJO were JUCOs and needed time is simply not based on fact.  

I think there is a large measure of people who set low expectations in order to avoid being disappointed later.  

Congratulations, you win.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No. You don't see. You made a simple misstatement of fact. No big deal really, but when you repeated it for the second time in this thread I and others pointed it out. The normal reply would have been thanks, my mistake, end of story. Instead you follow a two word acknowledgement with paragraghs absolving and mitigating your error. Throw in a little old fashioned name calling at the end and you have the Chicos version of "my mistake".

Yup, and I apologized for the error.  The fact also remains that you have an enormous bug up your rump of late, not sure why.  

[Pakuni]

WVU took a minor miracle to beat Cleveland State.  Let's see how Wisconsin does at Purdue, my guess is at no point in the game will they trail by 25 points.

Do they hand out trophies for that?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do they hand out trophies for that?

I don't think so, but considering Wisconsin beat Purdue today by 7 points....well, let's just say I'll stick by my prediction that Wisconsin would defeat WVU with no doubt in my mind.

[Pakuni]

I don't think so, but considering Wisconsin beat Purdue today by 7 points....well, let's just say I'll stick by my prediction that Wisconsin would defeat WVU with no doubt in my mind.

And UWGB would beat Purdue.
Because that's how it works.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And UWGB would beat Purdue.
Because that's how it works.

Actually UWGB beat Wisconsin

I'm going based on common opponents

UW beat Purdue.

Purdue annhiliated West Virginia


UW beat Marquette by 9 at home

WVU beat Marquette by 1 at home on a circus shot



I'll take Wisconsin, they're better than WVU.   

Whether they are better than Nova, that would be a great game to watch.  Two different styles. Seems to me that UW has done a pretty darn good job against the athletic teams this year...beating MU, beating Purdue, beating Duke, beating Maryland, etc.

[Lennys Tap]

Do they hand out trophies for that?

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[IAmMarquette]

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Pay the man, Shirley.