MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => COVID-19 => Topic started by: wadesworld on March 20, 2020, 08:15:56 PM
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Ebola, HIV, bird flu, swine flu, SARS, and Covid-19 are all traced back to these wet markets. Why are they even allowed at this point?
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Watched a video explaining it. I'll see if I can find it again, apparently China attempted to ban them after the last new disease
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Ebola, HIV, bird flu, swine flu, SARS, and Covid-19 are all traced back to these wet markets. Why are they even allowed at this point?
Cultural and regional pushback I’d imagine? I’ve seen plenty of takes objecting to the condemnation of wet markets as racist or culturally insensitive, but not every tradition or custom is “good” or to be accepted in modern times. Would those same people speak out in protection of foot binding too?
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Drop MOABs on every wet market that shows up from here on out
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Ebola, HIV, bird flu, swine flu, SARS, and Covid-19 are all traced back to these wet markets. Why are they even allowed at this point?
I don't think there is evidence that any of these started in wet markets. They all likely come from mishandling/butchering animals, but none have been proven to come from a "wet market".
Bird flu came from butchering chickens in factories. It can also come from farming chickens.
Swine flu is very old, it usually comes from farming, and being in close proximity to live pigs. The last several outbreaks have started in the americas.
HIV and Ebola came from people hunting and eating Chimps.
SARS and COVID-19, we do not know. But the best evidence we currently have is that it wasn't from the wet market, as the oldest cases had nothing to do with it. They both likely started with people hunting and killing wild game, similar to things like Chronic Wasting Disease in the US.
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Drop MOABs on every wet market that shows up from here on out
Shock and awe.
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Dr Fauci agrees
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/491025-fauci-mind-boggling-that-chinas-wet-markets (https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/491025-fauci-mind-boggling-that-chinas-wet-markets)
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Its this from article above: "The Chinese government tried to ban wet markets in 2013 after a deadly avian flu outbreak, which only led to more dangerous black markets"
While I'm sure there are some cultural traditions built into these, people with the option to run to a conventional supermarket generally aren't going to wet markets, fam.
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China is reopening its wet markets:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/china-reopening-wet-markets-thats-000050944.html
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and it appears it may not have come from the "wet markets." One more area where positions on COVID were taken because one side didn't want to acknowledge the other side *might* be right.
https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status/1397012975203102723
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/25/timeline-how-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-suddenly-became-credible/
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and it appears it may not have come from the "wet markets." One more area where positions on COVID were taken because one side didn't want to acknowledge the other side *might* be right.
https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status/1397012975203102723
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/25/timeline-how-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-suddenly-became-credible/
We still don't know where Covid19 came from with certainty. But reopening the wet markets is a terrible idea. That many unsanitary practices in one location is a tinder box for viruses to jump species.
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We still don't know where Covid19 came from with certainty. But reopening the wet markets is a terrible idea. That many unsanitary practices in one location is a tinder box for viruses to jump species.
I'm against the wet markets for reasons unrelated to COVID. But, dismissing the lab leak theory and immediately pushing the wet market theory as fact is an example of partisanship coming before scientific inquiry.
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Its this from article above: "The Chinese government tried to ban wet markets in 2013 after a deadly avian flu outbreak, which only led to more dangerous black markets"
While I'm sure there are some cultural traditions built into these, people with the option to run to a conventional supermarket generally aren't going to wet markets, fam.
Wet markets are some people’s livelihood. Easy for us to say stop. Not so easy for them.
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Wet markets are some people’s livelihood. Easy for us to say stop. Not so easy for them.
So are sweatshops and poaching, but both are wrong and should be acted against.
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I'm against the wet markets for reasons unrelated to COVID. But, dismissing the lab leak theory and immediately pushing the wet market theory as fact is an example of partisanship coming before scientific inquiry.
We used to have health monitors in these areas/labs that helped us keep tabs on this....why weren't they there to report the facts or even that the outbreak was occurring?
The reality is that partisanship didn't shut down this investigation, the Chinese did. Partisanship didnt come up with wet markets or lab leaks - the chinese did. You think the prior administration didn't investigate or push this because of 'partisan scientists'? Come on.
We need to investigate and we need to be allowed to investigate. Good luck getting to yes on both of those things.
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So are sweatshops and poaching, but both are wrong and should be acted against.
You might be right, but sweatshops and poaching mainly exist to make the rich even richer. For a lot of people, wet markets mean survival.
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I'm against the wet markets for reasons unrelated to COVID. But, dismissing the lab leak theory and immediately pushing the wet market theory as fact is an example of partisanship coming before scientific inquiry.
interesting how most of the "experts", including some on this very board who pushed everything but the lab leak theory are silent now and those that pushed the lab leak theory early on were censored and ruined by the likes of facebook, twitter and all the other "cool people". this is what happens when we have an incompetent, lying media. i'm hoping this was a big eye opener, but more than likely not. they would rather spin our wheels about jan. 6th while the next "virus" is coming...mask up
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interesting how most of the "experts", including some on this very board who pushed everything but the lab leak theory are silent now and those that pushed the lab leak theory early on were censored and ruined by the likes of facebook, twitter and all the other "cool people". this is what happens when we have an incompetent, lying media. i'm hoping this was a big eye opener, but more than likely not. they would rather spin our wheels about jan. 6th while the next "virus" is coming...mask up
With platforms like YouTube, patreon, substack, etc...you should really find new media sources
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interesting how most of the "experts", including some on this very board who pushed everything but the lab leak theory are silent now and those that pushed the lab leak theory early on were censored and ruined by the likes of facebook, twitter and all the other "cool people". this is what happens when we have an incompetent, lying media. i'm hoping this was a big eye opener, but more than likely not. they would rather spin our wheels about jan. 6th while the next "virus" is coming...mask up
The most likely source of the virus is still a natural source.
There is actually still no evidence this came from a lab. Zero. There is also no evidence of what the natural host is.
Most of these types of releases of new viruses emerge from one of two means. Venturing into areas man doesn't go (e.g. guano miners), or mishandling wild game.
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The most likely source of the virus is still a natural source.
There is actually still no evidence this came from a lab. Zero. There is also no evidence of what the natural host is.
Most of these types of releases of new viruses emerge from one of two means. Venturing into areas man doesn't go (e.g. guano miners), or mishandling wild game.
If there is zero evidence this came from a lab then why the about face from Fauci and colleagues?
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If there is zero evidence this came from a lab then why the about face from Fauci and colleagues?
There really isn't an about face. They are saying it can't be ruled out and it is worth looking into.
Their original dismissal was related to this being "lab created," which there is reasonable data that indicates it is most likely of natural origin.
That doesn't mean it can't be of natural origin and still be a lab leak (very different). A very simple example would be contaminated waste that wasn't properly disinfected leading to accidental release in wildlife going through the trash. Then emerges through spread of local wildlife.
As they struggle to find the original host, other possibilities continue to need to be looked at.
The fact remains though, that right now there is zero evidence this was related to the lab at all.
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The fact remains though, that right now there is zero evidence this was related to the lab at all.
Agreed, and there's zero evidence it came from a wet market. The only thing we know for certain is that the outbreak began in China. Though if you want to go all conspiracy <warning />, there's also zero evidence it wasn't "imported" into China so they could be the fall guy.
As others have mentioned, China hasn't exactly been welcoming in investigators to figure it out. So I think that breeds a lot of the mistrust/belief it was "manufactured" there, and they are hiding something. They may be - or they may just be hiding their incompetence of figuring out where it came from.
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Agreed, and there's zero evidence it came from a wet market. The only thing we know for certain is that the outbreak began in China. Though if you want to go all conspiracy <warning />, there's also zero evidence it wasn't "imported" into China so they could be the fall guy.
As others have mentioned, China hasn't exactly been welcoming in investigators to figure it out. So I think that breeds a lot of the mistrust/belief it was "manufactured" there, and they are hiding something. They may be - or they may just be hiding their incompetence of figuring out where it came from.
I agree. We will never actually know the origin. China and the WHO have said that serological tests of employees showed no COVID infections within the Wuhan institute. But those samples, which could prove that it wasn't leaked have not been shared. This is in part due to the political posturing of the White House, who from the beginning was looking for someone to blame, and who had already pulled out monitors that usually keep an eye out for stuff like this. Once it is clear that one side is looking to blame, and punish, vs finding out what happened, crap goes sideways.
My main contention, and one of the reasons I stay out of the fray regarding the origins, is argument and posturing about whether it was leaked or not serves no purpose. Lab accidents happen, if this was one, it was a particularly terrible one, but the take home would be extra precautions not shutting down research.
The same gain of function research being conducted (through US funding) in Wuhan, was also ongoing in the US. The US gain of function research identified remdesivir as a potent therapy for Coronaviruses, both circulating and novel (and including SARS and MERS) back in 2017. That research saved lives.
No facility is ever immune to accidents, as safety only goes as far as people actually listen to training.
What would be more important is finding a natural host so maybe we can identify other threats before they emerge.
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Forgetful,
Have you read The Premonition by Michael Lewis? With your knowledge base, it seems like it would be right in your wheelhouse.
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Forgetful,
Have you read The Premonition by Michael Lewis? With your knowledge base, it seems like it would be right in your wheelhouse.
Itchy, thanks for the tip, it looks very interesting. On reserve at my local library.
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Wet markets are some people’s livelihood. Easy for us to say stop. Not so easy for them.
Too bad. They're horrible places. Watch a video of them on the internet. I challenge you to be able to sit through more than a minute or two without tossing your cookies. They're straight up animal abuse.
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Forgetful,
Have you read The Premonition by Michael Lewis? With your knowledge base, it seems like it would be right in your wheelhouse.
I have not read it, but was just looking for some books to read, as I'll finally have some time to read for me. Will definitely pick it up. Looks very interesting.
Thank you.
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very well written article on "wet market" vs manipulated. nicholas wade does a tremendous job trying to explain these theories on the origin of COVID-19 bringing down to a level most could understand. mixing politics, money and china should always make one skeptical. wuhan, having a level 4 BSL should draw the attention of anyone with the slightest modicum of a bs detector. dr peter daszak also needs to come clean. if we had any MSM, this would have been discussed long ago. why not? refer to sentence #2. sad. many people may have unnecessarily died. if we do not correct this serious frailty, this will happen again in some form or another. this should not be a partisan issue as we have seen time after time, death has no preference for political stances.
if one has the attention span to follow nicholas wade discussion, he lays out a very plausible map. you don't have to have a deep bio science background to follow his logic
https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038
"These are the two arguments made by the Andersen group in support of their declaration that the SARS2 virus was clearly not manipulated. And this conclusion, grounded in nothing but two inconclusive speculations, convinced the world’s press that SARS2 could not have escaped from a lab. A technical critique of the Andersen letter takes it down in harsher words."
"The Daszak and Andersen letters were really political, not scientific statements, yet were amazingly effective. Articles in the mainstream press repeatedly stated that a consensus of experts had ruled lab escape out of the question or extremely unlikely. Their authors relied for the most part on the Daszak and Andersen letters, failing to understand the yawning gaps in their arguments. Mainstream newspapers all have science journalists on their staff, as do the major networks, and these specialist reporters are supposed to be able to question scientists and check their assertions. But the Daszak and Andersen assertions went largely unchallenged."
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very well written article on "wet market" vs manipulated. nicholas wade does a tremendous job trying to explain these theories on the origin of COVID-19 bringing down to a level most could understand. mixing politics, money and china should always make one skeptical. wuhan, having a level 4 BSL should draw the attention of anyone with the slightest modicum of a bs detector. dr peter daszak also needs to come clean. if we had any MSM, this would have been discussed long ago. why not? refer to sentence #2. sad. many people may have unnecessarily died. if we do not correct this serious frailty, this will happen again in some form or another. this should not be a partisan issue as we have seen time after time, death has no preference for political stances.
if one has the attention span to follow nicholas wade discussion, he lays out a very plausible map. you don't have to have a deep bio science background to follow his logic
https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038
"These are the two arguments made by the Andersen group in support of their declaration that the SARS2 virus was clearly not manipulated. And this conclusion, grounded in nothing but two inconclusive speculations, convinced the world’s press that SARS2 could not have escaped from a lab. A technical critique of the Andersen letter takes it down in harsher words."
"The Daszak and Andersen letters were really political, not scientific statements, yet were amazingly effective. Articles in the mainstream press repeatedly stated that a consensus of experts had ruled lab escape out of the question or extremely unlikely. Their authors relied for the most part on the Daszak and Andersen letters, failing to understand the yawning gaps in their arguments. Mainstream newspapers all have science journalists on their staff, as do the major networks, and these specialist reporters are supposed to be able to question scientists and check their assertions. But the Daszak and Andersen assertions went largely unchallenged."
Someone that recently wrote a book promoting eugenics is not a reliable source.
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/a-troubling-tome
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Someone that recently wrote a book promoting eugenics is not a reliable source.
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/a-troubling-tome
that's a perfect source for people like rocket
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Rocket just gets mad when "the media" says things he doesn't like, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that half of the media says things he likes.
Anyway, from the source he posted above:
"Neither the natural emergence nor the lab escape hypothesis can yet be ruled out. There is still no direct evidence for either. So no definitive conclusion can be reached."
Just like forgetful said...
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Too bad. They're horrible places. Watch a video of them on the internet. I challenge you to be able to sit through more than a minute or two without tossing your cookies. They're straight up animal abuse.
I agree that they are awful, and Wags makes a good comparison with poaching, which is also often directly related to the markets themselves. And any concerns about cultural mores starts fading pretty quickly when compared against the risks of virus transmission. Whether or not a wet market is responsible for covid species jumping, its happened before and will happen again.
But studies have shown that when wet markets just get closed, the risks associated with them can actually get worse due to the black market filling the void. So the answer here is probably a gradual shift away from the highest risk activities - like keeping the markets open but a more strict policing of the animals permitted to sold there. The real answer is increased standards of living to make these a thing of the past, but I'm not holding my breath there.
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Too bad. They're horrible places. Watch a video of them on the internet. I challenge you to be able to sit through more than a minute or two without tossing your cookies. They're straight up animal abuse.
I agree, Hards. I certainly wasn’t defending them. I was just giving a reason why they exist.
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Itchy, thanks for the tip, it looks very interesting. On reserve at my local library.
You read? ?-(
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that's a perfect source for people like rocket
Exactly. He finds awful sources and tries to talk them up in posts... but then it's very clear he hasn't read the article or done any due diligence.
I wonder if he thinks anyone around here takes him seriously.
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Good summation (IMHO) by the NYT's David Leonhardt:
Suddenly, talk of the Wuhan lab-leak theory seems to be everywhere.
President Biden yesterday called on U.S. intelligence officials to “redouble their efforts” to determine the origin of Covid-19 and figure out whether the virus that causes it accidentally leaked from a Chinese laboratory. Major publications and social media have recently been filled with discussion of the subject.
Today, we offer an explainer.
What are the basics?
The origin of the virus remains unclear. Many scientists have long believed that the most likely explanation is that it jumped from an animal to a person, possibly at a food market in Wuhan, China, in late 2019. Animal-to human transmission — known as zoonotic spillover — is a common origin story for viruses, including Ebola and some bird flus.
But some scientists have pointed to another possibility: that it escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. As in other laboratories, researchers there sometimes modify viruses, to understand and treat them.
“It is most likely that this is a virus that arose naturally, but we cannot exclude the possibility of some kind of a lab accident,” Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health, told senators yesterday.
Why now?
The subject is getting more attention because some scientists who were once skeptical of the laboratory theory have expressed new openness to it.
Two weeks ago, 18 scientists wrote a letter to the journal Science calling for a new investigation and describing both the animal-to-human theory and the lab-leak theory as “viable.” And three scientists who last year dismissed the lab-leak explanation as a conspiracy theory have told The Wall Street Journal that they now consider it plausible.
Among the reasons: Chinese officials have refused to allow an independent investigation into the lab and have failed to explain some inconsistencies in the animal-to-human hypothesis. Most of the first confirmed cases had no evident link to the food market.
What changed?
In some ways, not much has not changed. From the beginning, the virus’s origin has been unclear. All along, some scientists, politicians and journalists have argued that the lab-leak theory deserves consideration.
Almost 15 months ago, two Chinese researchers wrote a paper concluding that the virus “probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan.” Alina Chan, a molecular biologist affiliated with Harvard and M.I.T., made similar arguments. David Ignatius and Josh Rogin, both Washington Post columnists, wrote about the possibility more than a year ago. Joe Biden, then a presidential candidate, didn’t mention the lab-leak theory in early 2020 but he did argue that the U.S. should “not be taking China’s word” for how the outbreak started.
But these voices were in the minority. The World Health Organization initially dismissed the lab-leak theory as implausible.
Why all the dismissals?
It appears to be a classic example of groupthink, exacerbated by partisan polarization.
Global health officials seemed unwilling to confront Chinese officials, who insist the virus jumped from an animal to a person.
In the U.S., one of the theory’s earliest advocates was Tom Cotton, the Republican senator from Arkansas who often criticizes China — and who has a history of promoting falsehoods (like election fraud that didn’t happen). In this case, though, Cotton was making an argument with plausible supporting evidence.
The media’s coverage of his argument was flawed, Substack’s Matthew Yglesias has written. Some coverage exaggerated Cotton’s comments to suggest he was claiming that China had deliberately released the virus as a biological weapon. (Cotton called that “very unlikely.”) And some scientists and others also seem to have decided that if Cotton believed something — and Fox News and Donald Trump echoed it — the idea had to be wrong.
The result, as Yglesias called it, was a bubble of fake consensus. Scientists who thought a lab leak was plausible, like Chan, received little attention. Scientists who thought the theory was wacky received widespread attention. It’s a good reminder: The world is a complicated place, where almost nobody is always right or always wrong.
Why does it matter?
The virus’s origin does not affect many parts of the fight against Covid. The best mitigation strategies — travel restrictions, testing, contact tracing, social distancing, ventilation and masking — are still the best mitigation strategies.
But there are at least three concrete ways, in addition to the inherent value of truth, in which the origin matters.
First, if the virus really did come from a lab, an immediate airing of the details might have led to even faster vaccine development and more effective treatments. Second, a leak that caused millions of deaths could lead to widespread change in laboratories’ safety precautions. Third, confirmation of a leak would affect the world’s view of China — and would put pressure on China to bear the burden of vaccinating the world as quickly as possible.
So what’s the truth?
We don’t know. Both animal-to-human transmission and the lab leak appear plausible. And the obfuscation by Chinese officials means we may never know the truth.
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Exactly. He finds awful sources and tries to talk them up in posts... but then it's very clear he hasn't read the article or done any due diligence.
I wonder if he thinks anyone around here takes him seriously.
so you believe the nyt to be a reliable source?
"I wonder if he thinks anyone around here takes him seriously"
this is how you guys roll. demean, minimize and bully those you don't agree with in any number of ways-nice
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No we just have higher expectations for you then you do for yourself.
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Another good article, Jonathan Chiat, well known liberal pundit, calling out his own side for the media’s failure to pursue the lab leak possibility.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/lab-leak-liberal-media-theory-china-wuhan-lab-cotton-trump.html
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so you believe the nyt to be a reliable source?
Thank goodness for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Associated Press, Reuters and other legitimate news outlets these last 5-6 years.
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Thank goodness for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Associated Press, Reuters and other legitimate news outlets these last 5-6 years.
maybe the wall street journal, but the others on your list "and other legitimate news outlets these last 5-6 years" made me laugh-good one
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An investigation is being started. It can only go so far if the Chinese don't cooperate. As we learned when the WHO conducted an investigation. Truth and honesty would be the ideal so that all the necessary lessons can be learned and shared. I am not optimistic.
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Thank goodness for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Associated Press, Reuters and other legitimate news outlets these last 5-6 years.
Ewe actually reed da WSJ orr just look at da pictures and cartoon, hey?
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Ewe actually reed da WSJ orr just look at da pictures and cartoon, hey?
I subscribe to the WSJ and read it daily. Thanks for asking.
Ewe actually reed any legitimate publications orr just "official statements from the 45th president," nu?
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An investigation is being started. It can only go so far if the Chinese don't cooperate. As we learned when the WHO conducted an investigation. Truth and honesty would be the ideal so that all the necessary lessons can be learned and shared. I am not optimistic.
completely agree tower, but WHO and china are hooked at the wallet. unless we get full transparency(don't hold our breath)we will never learn from this and it will happen again. the world needs to unite against china and make them pay. china has #46 by the short hairs and can't even come clean on his biness dealings with hunter inc. speakin of impeachable offenses
maybe le'bron and the NBA can help?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SharriMarkson/status/1398252182609154056
You want to charge someone with reckless homicide?!?!? Start with this guy and his other scientist buddies who knew all along they were playing with fire.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SharriMarkson/status/1398252182609154056
You want to charge someone with reckless homicide?!?!? Start with this guy and his other scientist buddies who knew all along they were playing with fire.
Seems extreme. Basically there’s a small risk that comes with a large potential benefit. We aren’t even sure that this is due to a mistake in the lab.
I’m not well-read on gain of function testing, but this seems a little like saying we shouldn’t take someone with an emergency to the hospital because the ambulance might get into an accident. There’s a risk, but when weighed against the positives, it is worth it. Plus, with lab protocols, if this leaked from a lab, I have to imagine a lot of steps were missed.
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completely agree tower, but WHO and china are hooked at the wallet. unless we get full transparency(don't hold our breath)we will never learn from this and it will happen again. the world needs to unite against china and make them pay. china has #46 by the short hairs and can't even come clean on his biness dealings with hunter inc. speakin of impeachable offenses
maybe le'bron and the NBA can help?
Glad you're all about investigations and transparency. You must be livid that your "law and order" party isn't helping pass bipartisan legislation calling for an independent investigation into the cop-killing, seditionist coup attempt at the Capitol on 1/6/21. I can only assume that you already have contacted your U.S. senators and representatives to urge them to be patriots -- rather than traitors who aid, abet and/or condone domestic terrorism on behalf of the deranged leader of what used to be the Republican Party.
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Glad you're all about investigations and transparency. You must be livid that your "law and order" party isn't helping pass bipartisan legislation calling for an independent investigation into the cop-killing, seditionist coup attempt at the Capitol on 1/6/21. I can only assume that you already have contacted your U.S. senators and representatives to urge them to be patriots -- rather than traitors who aid, abet and/or condone domestic terrorism on behalf of the deranged leader of what used to be the Republican Party.
WTF does this have to do with wet markets? Stay focused.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SharriMarkson/status/1398252182609154056
You want to charge someone with reckless homicide?!?!? Start with this guy and his other scientist buddies who knew all along they were playing with fire.
What?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SharriMarkson/status/1398252182609154056
You want to charge someone with reckless homicide?!?!? Start with this guy and his other scientist buddies who knew all along they were playing with fire.
Gain of function research is going to be conducted somewhere, even more likely that someone does it for nefarious purposes.
So do we ban it in the US, out of fear of an accident. Or do we allow it under stringent rules?
Remember, gain of function research led to the identification of Remdesivir as a potential potent therapy against Coronaviruses (like COVID) back in 2017. Without that gain of function research, we may not have had such a therapy.
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completely agree tower, but WHO and china are hooked at the wallet. unless we get full transparency(don't hold our breath)we will never learn from this and it will happen again. the world needs to unite against china and make them pay. china has #46 by the short hairs and can't even come clean on his biness dealings with hunter inc. speakin of impeachable offenses
maybe le'bron and the NBA can help?
Regarding the bolded. Let's say it was a result of a lab accident. You say make them pay.
Should we make all the countries that had crappy responses, leading to it spreading more widely pay also? China's response was actually infinitely better than that of the rest of the world. If countries had tested all people returning from China (remember the CDC under Trump refused to do so, because invasion of privacy), it would have most likely been contained.
Do we make the US pay for helping fund the research that led the accident?
The fact of the matter is that regardless of origin, even a lab accident, the fault doesn't lie in the accident alone, but rather a culmination of absurdly poor handling by people and nations around the world. We need to find the origin of this, but not for blame/punishment purposes. There is tons of blame to go around everywhere. The purpose of investigations should be to determine what everyone should have done different and/or better, so that this doesn't happen at this severity again.
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Regarding the bolded. Let's say it was a result of a lab accident. You say make them pay.
Should we make all the countries that had crappy responses, leading to it spreading more widely pay also? China's response was actually infinitely better than that of the rest of the world. If countries had tested all people returning from China (remember the CDC under Trump refused to do so, because invasion of privacy), it would have most likely been contained.
Do we make the US pay for helping fund the research that led the accident?
The fact of the matter is that regardless of origin, even a lab accident, the fault doesn't lie in the accident alone, but rather a culmination of absurdly poor handling by people and nations around the world. We need to find the origin of this, but not for blame/punishment purposes. There is tons of blame to go around everywhere. The purpose of investigations should be to determine what everyone should have done different and/or better, so that this doesn't happen at this severity again.
I have no issue with the majority of your post but the bolded is laughable because it takes China directly and literally for their word. Wuhan was a disaster for weeks but we’re supposed to believe a city of over 10MM at the epicenter of the pandemic had cases in less than 1% of their population, much less the rest of China? The fact that they literally stopped counting last March makes me doubtful of anything they say. 90K cases and 4K deaths in all of China isn’t just massaging the numbers, it’s outright lies.
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I have no issue with the majority of your post but the bolded is laughable because it takes China directly and literally for their word. Wuhan was a disaster for weeks but we’re supposed to believe a city of over 10MM at the epicenter of the pandemic had cases in less than 1% of their population, much less the rest of China? The fact that they literally stopped counting last March makes me doubtful of anything they say. 90K cases and 4K deaths in all of China isn’t just massaging the numbers, it’s outright lies.
I agree that their official numbers are lies, but I know enough people in China and even Wuhan to be aware that their overall response was more successful in squashing spread and deaths.
That is one of the advantages of being an oppressive regime.
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An investigation is being started. It can only go so far if the Chinese don't cooperate. As we learned when the WHO conducted an investigation. Truth and honesty would be the ideal so that all the necessary lessons can be learned and shared. I am not optimistic.
I put the chances of China “cooperating” with a legitimate investigation at slightly less than 0%. First, it’s just not their style. Second, very likely they already know the answer to “WTF happened?”. Pretty sure they’re not eager for the rest of the world to know.
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" the fault doesn't lie in the accident alone, but rather a culmination of absurdly poor handling by people and nations around the world. We need to find the origin of this, but not for blame/punishment purposes"
go re-read what the "experts" were saying early on. like january-february. pelosi, deblasio, et.al. were saying come to our place, china town all good, 45 is a xenophobe, fauci-masks are only for show and do no good...china wasn't helping while they continued while disallowing domestic travel from wuhan to other major cities within, they urged international carriers to maintain their schedules.
the world did not really know what we were dealing with, but someone(umm, the chinese, doc tony etc) knew. dr li and a few others
did know, but their health prevented them from disclosing too much, eyn'a? . so, according to your thinking forget, because of china's control over it's servants, they prevented the virus from spreading so around their own country? they also prevented the rest of the world from knowing what the hell we were dealing with
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Gain of function research is going to be conducted somewhere, even more likely that someone does it for nefarious purposes.
So do we ban it in the US, out of fear of an accident. Or do we allow it under stringent rules?
Remember, gain of function research led to the identification of Remdesivir as a potential potent therapy against Coronaviruses (like COVID) back in 2017. Without that gain of function research, we may not have had such a therapy.
So you’re arguing if this pandemic was the result of a lab leak related to gain of function research it’s worth it cause without gain of function research we wouldn’t have remdesivir?
Millions of lives lost, global economies turned on their head but don’t worry guys. We have flipping remdesivir!!!!
Goodness.
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I agree that their official numbers are lies, but I know enough people in China and even Wuhan to be aware that their overall response was more successful in squashing spread and deaths.
That is one of the advantages of being an oppressive regime.
You’re right, Forgetful. Of course China isn’t going to be honest, but we were just as much at fault. We knew China locked down a city of 10,000,000. We knew they were quick building multiple 1,000+ bed hospitals. We knew thousands of people had flown from Wuhan all around the globe. We had people in January sounding the alarm in the US that a pandemic was imminent.
But the people from government that could have saved us had been fired by trump. Pandemic plans created over the previous 15 years had been thrown in the garbage.
The CDC is not a quick reaction force. They are a government agency who mainly investigates and reports. They are not on the leading edge fighting new diseases.
We knew what was happening. We ignored the advice of experts. Instead we were told to follow the advice of a fool who just wanted to ignore it and have it go away. We paid the price. 600,000 people are dead - the majority unnecessarily.
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You’re right, Forgetful. Of course China isn’t going to be honest, but we were just as much at fault. We knew China locked down a city of 10,000,000. We knew they were quick building multiple 1,000+ bed hospitals. We knew thousands of people had flown from Wuhan all around the globe. We had people in January sounding the alarm in the US that a pandemic was imminent.
But the people from government that could have saved us had been fired by trump. Pandemic plans created over the previous 15 years had been thrown in the garbage.
The CDC is not a quick reaction force. They are a government agency who mainly investigates and reports. They are not on the leading edge fighting new diseases.
We knew what was happening. We ignored the advice of experts. Instead we were told to follow the advice of a fool who just wanted to ignore it and have it go away. We paid the price. 600,000 people are dead - the majority unnecessarily.
so people were sounding the alarm in january? didn't nance get the message? don't remember trump firing pelosi. so should we sometimes listen to the CDC and sometimes not?
february 24. 2020
"That’s what we’re trying to do today is to say everything is fine here," Pelosi said. "Come because precautions have been taken. The city is on top of the situation."
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-san-franciscos-chinatown/2240247/
don't recall deblasio getting fired either-this article from march 30, 2020.
cuomo and witmer released thousands back into the nursing homes
https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/03/30/de-blasio-nyc-officials-downplayed-covid-19-threat-after-trump-restricted-travel-to-china-here-are-5-examples/
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"Instead we were told to follow the advice of a FOOL who just wanted to ignore it and have it go away. We paid the price. 600,000 people are dead - the majority unnecessarily."
so pelosi, deblasio and others were ignoring 45's warnings cuz he was a xenophobe and stuff
this is so emblematic of the left's view of what really happened, but when all you are tuned into is cnn, msnbc, cbs, abc, the view...nevermind
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You’re right, Forgetful. Of course China isn’t going to be honest, but we were just as much at fault. We knew China locked down a city of 10,000,000. We knew they were quick building multiple 1,000+ bed hospitals. We knew thousands of people had flown from Wuhan all around the globe. We had people in January sounding the alarm in the US that a pandemic was imminent.
But the people from government that could have saved us had been fired by trump. Pandemic plans created over the previous 15 years had been thrown in the garbage.
The CDC is not a quick reaction force. They are a government agency who mainly investigates and reports. They are not on the leading edge fighting new diseases.
We knew what was happening. We ignored the advice of experts. Instead we were told to follow the advice of a fool who just wanted to ignore it and have it go away. We paid the price. 600,000 people are dead - the majority unnecessarily.
I believe before a single death happened here we put in travel restrictions against the advice of our leading medical expert on infectious diseases. I’ve asked 100x’s what is it that we didn’t do in those early days that we were advised to do.
Every time I ask for a specific example I get crickets or something Trump said well into the pandemic that was indeed moronic (Liberate, bleach etc) but while stupid no policy to inject bleach was imposed so aside from a dumb comment it had no effect.
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I believe before a single death happened here we put in travel restrictions against the advice of our leading medical expert on infectious diseases. I’ve asked 100x’s what is it that we didn’t do in those early days that we were advised to do.
Every time I ask for a specific example I get crickets or something Trump said well into the pandemic that was indeed moronic (Liberate, bleach etc) but while stupid no policy to inject bleach was imposed so aside from a dumb comment it had no effect.
#1. Travel restrictions after the virus was already here - and probably fairly widespread - were useless. They did absolutely nothing to stop the spread.
I could write an MU82 length dissertation here, but to keep it short, I’ll just say what they should have done first and second:
1) Once China shut down Wuhan, they should have done a data study on how many people flew out of Wuhan to the US. We knew it was probably in the 1000s and we needed to know where they landed.
2) in the cities where flights from Wuhan landed, there should have been hospital studies. The number of people who came in with flu-like symptoms with the percentage that tested negative. All those who tested negative could then be assumed to have Covid and could be isolated.
3) Shutdown immediately and fully. Isolation and social distancing are the 2 most effective tools in the box.
4) Take the threat seriously. The experts were all saying what was going to happen.
Many, many people were telling us what to do, but most of them had been removed from government service already by trump.
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#1. Travel restrictions after the virus was already here - and probably fairly widespread - were useless. They did absolutely nothing to stop the spread.
I could write an MU82 length dissertation here, but to keep it short, I’ll just say what they should have done first and second:
1) Once China shut down Wuhan, they should have done a data study on how many people flew out of Wuhan to the US. We knew it was probably in the 1000s and we needed to know where they landed.
2) in the cities where flights from Wuhan landed, there should have been hospital studies. The number of people who came in with flu-like symptoms with the percentage that tested negative. All those who tested negative could then be assumed to have Covid and could be isolated.
3) Shutdown immediately and fully. Isolation and social distancing are the 2 most effective tools in the box.
4) Take the threat seriously. The experts were all saying what was going to happen.
Many, many people were telling us what to do, but most of them had been removed from government service already by trump.
everybody's a monday morning QB. what his "leaders" and "experts" said was ok though. 45, despite all the partisan hate and constant msm spew, he did many things right. as pace said however, mistakes were made. this was so politicized at our expense. we needed to work together as a country to overcome this, but as we saw...yeah right
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#1. Travel restrictions after the virus was already here - and probably fairly widespread - were useless. They did absolutely nothing to stop the spread.
I could write an MU82 length dissertation here, but to keep it short, I’ll just say what they should have done first and second:
1) Once China shut down Wuhan, they should have done a data study on how many people flew out of Wuhan to the US. We knew it was probably in the 1000s and we needed to know where they landed.
2) in the cities where flights from Wuhan landed, there should have been hospital studies. The number of people who came in with flu-like symptoms with the percentage that tested negative. All those who tested negative could then be assumed to have Covid and could be isolated.
3) Shutdown immediately and fully. Isolation and social distancing are the 2 most effective tools in the box.
4) Take the threat seriously. The experts were all saying what was going to happen.
Many, many people were telling us what to do, but most of them had been removed from government service already by trump.
Would love to see a source showing one “expert” saying any of the above things early on.
You said experts weren’t listened to early on. Listing out things you would have done differently (with the benefit of hindsight) doesn’t quite hit the mark. You’re a lot of things jockey but an expert on infectious disease control isn’t one I’d put at the top of the list.
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everybody's a monday morning QB. what his "leaders" and "experts" said was ok though. 45, despite all the partisan hate and constant msm spew, he did many things right. as pace said however, mistakes were made. this was so politicized at our expense. we needed to work together as a country to overcome this, but as we saw...yeah right
I mean, who do you think politicized this? Who ignored medical advice? Who encouraged people to “liberate” state governments? Who actually caught Covid because he held events that openly flaunted best practices?
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I believe before a single death happened here we put in travel restrictions against the advice of our leading medical expert on infectious diseases. I’ve asked 100x’s what is it that we didn’t do in those early days that we were advised to do.
Every time I ask for a specific example I get crickets or something Trump said well into the pandemic that was indeed moronic (Liberate, bleach etc) but while stupid no policy to inject bleach was imposed so aside from a dumb comment it had no effect.
Awhile back in another thread, at the request of a Trump supporter, several Scoopers listed numerous horrific mistakes that Trump and his cohorts made regarding Covid. Those were met mostly with crickets. Not gonna waste time again, because you don’t really want to hear them.
But I do like the way you casually dismiss your hero’s LIBERATE rant. 18 hours earlier, he had laid out specific guidelines with specific benchmarks for states to be able to reopen the economy. Then he undid all that with a series of tweets telling his armed terrorists that it was ok for them to LIBERATE their states by force, even though those states were nowhere near having met his own guidelines.
That WAS policy.
Even if people totally give Trump a pass on everything from the early hours of the pandemic to April 16 - not saying we should, but even if we did - just about everything he did from April 17 on was a total disaster. His acts, words and policies led to hundreds of thousands of dead Americans on his watch. It led to economic ruin for hundreds of thousands more. And it led to him getting rejected by more voters than any politician in the history of our democratic republic.
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So you’re arguing if this pandemic was the result of a lab leak related to gain of function research it’s worth it cause without gain of function research we wouldn’t have remdesivir?
Millions of lives lost, global economies turned on their head but don’t worry guys. We have flipping remdesivir!!!!
Goodness.
Way to read into what I posted in the way that serves your argument best.
Read the very first line of my post. The most important thing is that gain of function research is going to be done by others...period. And very likely would be done by bad actors looking to cause catastrophes. Not to mention it is being done through natural mechanisms in every one of these bat caves.
So us banning gain of function research just blocks our ability to find treatments and cures from otherwise incurable diseases. It doesn't block the risk.
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Would love to see a source showing one “expert” saying any of the above things early on.
You said experts weren’t listened to early on. Listing out things you would have done differently (with the benefit of hindsight) doesn’t quite hit the mark. You’re a lot of things jockey but an expert on infectious disease control isn’t one I’d put at the top of the list.
You are not smart enough to discuss this. Those were not my ideas. They were suggestions from government experts who had been fired.
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I mean, who do you think politicized this? Who ignored medical advice? Who encouraged people to “liberate” state governments? Who actually caught Covid because he held events that openly flaunted best practices?
both sides dude. as i said, this was politicized by all sides at OUR expense. both sides could have done better for the benefit of OUR country and the world. big power struggle going on yet today. history will repeat itself unless the real truth comes out-what was the origin of the virus and how can steps be taken so this never happens again.
pace made a great point-is gain of function worth the risks? world wide pandemic, millions of lives lost, lives affected forever(no pun intended), economical disasters...
whenever gain of function is being undertaken, absolute transparency, supervision and safety precautions are obviously of utmost urgency and of eminent importance. we cannot rely on WHO as a purveyor of world health.
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You are not smart enough to discuss this. Those were not my ideas. They were suggestions from government experts who had been fired.
name them...source?
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both sides dude. as i said, this was politicized by all sides at OUR expense. both sides could have done better for the benefit of OUR country and the world. big power struggle going on yet today. history will repeat itself unless the real truth comes out-what was the origin of the virus and how can steps be taken so this never happens again.
pace made a great point-is gain of function worth the risks? world wide pandemic, millions of lives lost, lives affected forever(no pun intended), economical disasters...
whenever gain of function is being undertaken, absolute transparency, supervision and safety precautions are obviously of utmost urgency and of eminent importance. we cannot rely on WHO as a purveyor of world health.
And if a lab leak happens while doing this gain of function people need to be put in jail for a long time not allowed to hide under the #keepsciencing bs
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name them...source?
Yo, this is rich. You wouldn't know a good source if you were, say, at Marquette University trying to resubmit a paper that got sent back to you because your sources sucked.
And if a lab leak happens while doing this gain of function people need to be put in jail for a long time not allowed to hide under the #keepsciencing bs
I swear to god you two didn't go to college.
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The AP and Reuters are no longer reputable sources?
You guys are completely in the woods. Build a bunker and stay in there until another Trump is in office for your own sake.
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both sides dude. as i said, this was politicized by all sides at OUR expense. both sides could have done better for the benefit of OUR country and the world. big power struggle going on yet today. history will repeat itself unless the real truth comes out-what was the origin of the virus and how can steps be taken so this never happens again.
pace made a great point-is gain of function worth the risks? world wide pandemic, millions of lives lost, lives affected forever(no pun intended), economical disasters...
whenever gain of function is being undertaken, absolute transparency, supervision and safety precautions are obviously of utmost urgency and of eminent importance. we cannot rely on WHO as a purveyor of world health.
Blah blah blah..."both sides."
Be smarter please.
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both sides dude. as i said, this was politicized by all sides at OUR expense. both sides could have done better for the benefit of OUR country and the world. big power struggle going on yet today. history will repeat itself unless the real truth comes out-what was the origin of the virus and how can steps be taken so this never happens again.
pace made a great point-is gain of function worth the risks? world wide pandemic, millions of lives lost, lives affected forever(no pun intended), economical disasters...
whenever gain of function is being undertaken, absolute transparency, supervision and safety precautions are obviously of utmost urgency and of eminent importance. we cannot rely on WHO as a purveyor of world health.
If it is ultimately determined that this indeed jumped from an animal to a human, how would it be prevented in the future? There are humans all around the world that interact with and eat animals in dirty conditions because that's life.
You seem to be implying that there is only one possible true origin - the lab leak.
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Yo, this is rich. You wouldn't know a good source if you were, say, at Marquette University trying to resubmit a paper that got sent back to you because your sources sucked.
I swear to god you two didn't go to college.
Yo, instead of being a prick.....just find an article, interview, anything suggesting what jockey posted was being said by experts in January, Feb, March of 2020.
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Yo, instead of being a prick.....just find an article, interview, anything suggesting what jockey posted was being said by experts in January, Feb, March of 2020.
I can see why it would be hard for you to google such a non-specific question on your own.
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Best and simplest summary I have seen. https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1398651730175406081?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1398651730175406081?s=21)
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Best and simplest summary I have seen. https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1398651730175406081?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1398651730175406081?s=21)
His statement that if this had started in any democracy we'd have had a far better chance of containing it is false. Look how long it took us to realize it was circulating here, and that is with knowing we should be looking for it.
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His statement that if this had started in any democracy we'd have had a far better chance of containing it is false. Look how long it took us to realize it was circulating here, and that is with knowing we should be looking for it.
That was added after I posted the initial summary. The second part is clearly debatable. We never hid that it was spreading, but we sure weren’t looking for it. Referencing the WA outbreak here where we even stopped a flu study from running their own tests on it.
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The US had plenty of failings but they didn’t withhold information and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world in terms of fact finding. Even if it didn’t come from a lab leak, I don’t know why there is any reason to praise or defend China for anything in this pandemic, outside of some of their local response which is even up for debate given their outlandish inaccuracies in infection and death reporting
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The US had plenty of failings but they didn’t withhold information and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world in terms of fact finding. Even if it didn’t come from a lab leak, I don’t know why there is any reason to praise or defend China for anything in this pandemic, outside of some of their local response which is even up for debate given their outlandish inaccuracies in infection and death reporting
Perhaps the US didn't withhold info and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world, but the president of the US was telling the American people that COVID-19 was similar to the flu and that it would disappear "like a miracle" within days ... even as he was telling Bob Woodward it was 5 times more deadly "than even your strenuous flus."
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Perhaps the US didn't withhold info and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world, but the president of the US was telling the American people that COVID-19 was similar to the flu and that it would disappear "like a miracle" within days ... even as he was telling Bob Woodward it was 5 times more deadly "than even your strenuous flus."
FFS Mike, can you stay on topic for even 1 post without repeating the same f-ing crap over and over? You’re adding NOTHING and doing nothing but trying to bait the same people.
Nobody in the international medical community was making or adjusting their perspective on COVID cause of what Trump said in a press conference. Wildly different than WHO statements and guidance based on what China was feeding them
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FFS Mike, can you stay on topic for even 1 post without repeating the same f-ing crap over and over? You’re adding NOTHING and doing nothing but trying to bait the same people.
Nobody in the international medical community was making or adjusting their perspective on COVID cause of what Trump said in a press conference. Wildly different than WHO statements and guidance based on what China was feeding them
Yes. Apologies to reasonable folks like you.
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The US had plenty of failings but they didn’t withhold information and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world in terms of fact finding. Even if it didn’t come from a lab leak, I don’t know why there is any reason to praise or defend China for anything in this pandemic, outside of some of their local response which is even up for debate given their outlandish inaccuracies in infection and death reporting
China clearly lied about a lot. But I don't think you can say we didn't withhold information and/or lie about what they had found.
We actively forbid researchers from testing suspicious samples in cases of severe flu-like symptoms that were flu negative. These were later found to contain some of the earliest cases of COVID that then went un-investigated. We deliberately blocked testing of people returning from China. These actions knowingly withheld the US public, and the world from realizing how much spread there was already in the US.
We then also, in almost all states under-reported deaths by only reporting tests with a positive COVID test, but not testing those who died with COVID-like symptoms.
I'd argue that if China was reported to have done all the above, many on these boards would be screaming that the above were lies and deliberate withholding of information and they should be held responsible.
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An oddity of the whole COVID origins that I don't think gets enough attention is the retrospective reports of COVID cases in multiple areas going back to fall 2019, particularly in Italy.
Analysis of samples from September 2019, show evidence of infection in multiple areas of Northern Italy, and in the sewage, prior to the main cases in Wuhan. The ones dating from September do not correlate with a rise in any severe illness.
These results suggest that the virus may have been circulating in a less infectious form for awhile.
Also intriguing, the first known case in France (from mid Dec.) was a fishmonger who worked in a seafood market. Other early cases also seem to align with markets. It at least makes you wonder if there is a common source then tied to wildlife/poachers/traffickers.
nb. This is speculation, and intrigue, not really based on much information. Also, veering back to original topic.
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His statement that if this had started in any democracy we'd have had a far better chance of containing it is false. Look how long it took us to realize it was circulating here, and that is with knowing we should be looking for it.
You're wrong, Forgetful. We did know it was circulating here. It took a long time for leaders to admit it was circulating here.
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The US had plenty of failings but they didn’t withhold information and/or lie about what they had found to the rest of the world in terms of fact finding. Even if it didn’t come from a lab leak, I don’t know why there is any reason to praise or defend China for anything in this pandemic, outside of some of their local response which is even up for debate given their outlandish inaccuracies in infection and death reporting
Yes the US did lie to the entire world. When trump said there were only 15 cases, he was lying and all of his people knew he was lying.
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China clearly lied about a lot. But I don't think you can say we didn't withhold information and/or lie about what they had found.
We actively forbid researchers from testing suspicious samples in cases of severe flu-like symptoms that were flu negative. These were later found to contain some of the earliest cases of COVID that then went un-investigated. We deliberately blocked testing of people returning from China. These actions knowingly withheld the US public, and the world from realizing how much spread there was already in the US.
We then also, in almost all states under-reported deaths by only reporting tests with a positive COVID test, but not testing those who died with COVID-like symptoms.
I'd argue that if China was reported to have done all the above, many on these boards would be screaming that the above were lies and deliberate withholding of information and they should be held responsible.
100% accurate.
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https://www.foxnews.com/world/explosive-study-claims-to-prove-chinese-scientists-created-covid
Articles like this drive me nuts. It is articles like this, pushed by agenda driven groups like the GOP and Foxnews that lead to crazy conspiracy theories. And leads to scientists being accused of rejecting the idea of a "lab leak" because they are refuting crap science.
The reason this article was rejected by major journals wasn't some conspiracy theory, but simply because their main premise is crap. They claim that since a SARS-CoV2 protein has 4 positively charged amino acids in a row it proves that SARS-CoV2 was engineered, because "The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row."
Someone needs to tell that to one of the proteins I study, because it has 4 positively charged amino acids in a row, as to plenty of other natural proteins, as the motif they are highlighting is used widely as a nuclear localization signal to direct said protein to the nucleus. Also common in coronaviruses, including the original SARS virus.
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https://www.foxnews.com/world/explosive-study-claims-to-prove-chinese-scientists-created-covid
Articles like this drive me nuts. It is articles like this, pushed by agenda driven groups like the GOP and Foxnews that lead to crazy conspiracy theories. And leads to scientists being accused of rejecting the idea of a "lab leak" because they are refuting crap science.
The reason this article was rejected by major journals wasn't some conspiracy theory, but simply because their main premise is crap. They claim that since a SARS-CoV2 protein has 4 positively charged amino acids in a row it proves that SARS-CoV2 was engineered, because "The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row."
Someone needs to tell that to one of the proteins I study, because it has 4 positively charged amino acids in a row, as to plenty of other natural proteins.
no chit forget. almost as bad as every network in the world except fox pushing russiarussiarussia for 3 + years, but i understand your frustration
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no chit forget. almost as bad as every network in the world except fox pushing russiarussiarussia for 3 + years, but i understand your frustration
Wait until you figure out what's going to happen with Jan 6th
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Unfortunately, the GOP..
Yet again you have used the slightest opening to go off topic and inject your political opinions.
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Yet again you have used the slightest opening to go off topic and inject your political opinions.
And realized it. And apologized for it. You should be as willing to do the same.
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And realized it. And apologized for it. You should be as willing to do the same.
LOL. For what?
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Sweet fancy Moses.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/michaeljohns/status/1399995521138409476
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https://mobile.twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1399910584393469956
These Fauci emails are something. No wonder the initial federal response was a disaster with this guy as our chief medical ExPeRt.
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Fr. Fauci's an idiot. Got his hands in da cookie jar. Dis iz y covid has now gone away. Tyme ta get rid of FF, aina?
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This is the hypothetical equivalent of Jockey posting an email from trump about bleach from early April.
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That was from February 2020. Fauci realized he was wrong as the science evolved. (ie, when he realized that asymptomatic people spread the virus.) Others didn't.
He's been right way more than he's been wrong. Many others, including many people here, can't say the same.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1399910584393469956
These Fauci emails are something. No wonder the initial federal response was a disaster with this guy as our chief medical ExPeRt.
All these emails are exactly what he said in press conferences...I don't understand the outrage?
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All these emails are exactly what he said in press conferences...I don't understand the outrage?
Well, he said we didn’t need masks at one point. So that should be set in stone and never change, despite the fact that we were very early in the pandemic and still learning about it.
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Fauci learned and adjusted as more information became available. The people showing faux outrage still deny the pandemic was anything but a tactic to get 45 out of office.
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Well, he said we didn’t need masks at one point. So that should be set in stone and never change, despite the fact that we were very early in the pandemic and still learning about it.
And don't forget also that he also shouldn't err on the side of safety and being conservative, because then his recommendations aren't useful.
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I'll never understand the distain for a civil servant (especially a Jesuit educated one) who has given his life to helping public health. He freely admits mistakes, insists on learning and has served with distinction under 7 US Presidents.
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What about the email that shows with pretty good evidence that C19 was created in a lab, from March 2020?
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What about the email that shows with pretty good evidence that C19 was created in a lab, from March 2020?
And if it was? How would that have the altered the abatement efforts from April of 2020 to now?
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That scientist that sent that email has commented on it publicly on what his conclusion was after studying the data that was available. It actually doesn't show any evidence in the email, it shows a hypothesis.
By the way outside of wanting to know the source to help prevent future outbreaks, I could care less about how this happened at this point. So i dont really have an axe to grind one way or another. I just think it is another example of frothy goodness latching onto things that dont prove anything or repeat things that were already said in a more public fashion.
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What about the email that shows with pretty good evidence that C19 was created in a lab, from March 2020?
What email? The guy claiming the procedure for producing it?
Yeah, that dude isn't credible, and if it was created the way he claims it would be absurdly clear to scientists around the world.
They same guy claims he cured COVID, but is being blocked by mainstream science.
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I like to know how fires I fight started. Sometimes, the answer is 'undetermined'. I think it would be good to know the origin of this. Learning is always good.
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I like to know how fires I fight started. Sometimes, the answer is 'undetermined'. I think it would be good to know the origin of this. Learning is always good.
I 100% agree with you and I think it should be fully investigated. There are some though that act as is if finding that out changes our current situation. And by current I mean the past 15 months. Regardless of where it started, whose fault it was, it was still here and we need / needed to deal with it. When you're in the crisis you can't look for blame, you have to look for solutions.
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Exactly. I would hope there would be a clear and transparent review of everything. The origin. The response. The decision making process.
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What about the email that shows with pretty good evidence that C19 was created in a lab, from March 2020?
You mean the email from the COVID Truther with the COVID formula? The same guy that is being hunted because he knows how to cure COVID?
Or how about this one?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E205OSQUcAEi3_2?format=png&name=small)
Should the United States have dropped everything to follow up on this clearly sane email? That thing reads like a rocket dentist post.
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What email? The guy claiming the procedure for producing it?
Yeah, that dude isn't credible, and if it was created the way he claims it would be absurdly clear to scientists around the world.
They same guy claims he cured COVID, but is being blocked by mainstream science.
Don't worry pace, you can bring this up again in six weeks and pretend once again its all new.
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Well, he said we didn’t need masks at one point. So that should be set in stone and never change, despite the fact that we were very early in the pandemic and still learning about it.
early on he said no to the public wearing masks as there was a shortage and medical personnel needed them.
"As Fauci told the Washington Post here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown."
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-outdated-video-masks/fact-checkoutdated-video-of-fauci-saying-theres-no-reason-to-be-walking-around-with-a-mask-idUSKBN26T2TR
That said, I don't understand the worship of him. People buying t-shirts with his likeness or statues of the man and displaying them in their home is just weird.
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I 100% agree with you and I think it should be fully investigated. There are some though that act as is if finding that out changes our current situation. And by current I mean the past 15 months. Regardless of where it started, whose fault it was, it was still here and we need / needed to deal with it. When you're in the crisis you can't look for blame, you have to look for solutions.
Absolutely. I mean, of course the origins should be investigated; I don't think anyone outside of the Chinese would disagree.
But whether it jumped from animal to human or was released from a lab, nothing would have been different. Trump was laying the blame at the doorstep of the Chinese from the beginning, so what would have been different?
The recordings from Woodward show that Trump knew exactly how deadly the virus was but he decided to downplay because he thought that would help his election chances and thereby caused many more American deaths than there would have been otherwise. Certainty about the origin wouldn't have changed these facts one iota.
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That said, I don't understand the worship of him. People buying t-shirts with his likeness or statues of the man and displaying them in their home is just weird.
I don't worship him at all, but even with the early f-up he actively worked to share the facts as we understood them to Congress and the people directly. I'd note that Jerome Adams also shared the same mask advice. We don't hear about him weekly. Robert Redfield was absent - surveillance and testing is actually the purview of the CDC. Deb Birx enabled many mixed messages months later when we had better information and that were far more dangerous. Again no weekly snipes.
Frankly the best part of this pandemic response from the US was economic and the vaccine...developed by the NIH - which is overseen by Fauci & Collins (his boss). The best part about warp speed was the accelerated trials and clearance. Also NIH. So....that's weird.
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Robert Redfield was absent - surveillance and testing is actually the purview of the CDC.
One of the most important things said here.
The CDC has no legal authority to run a pandemic response. I would bet that a very small numbers of Americans know that. Nor do they realize that we have NO national healthcare system.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1399910584393469956
These Fauci emails are something. No wonder the initial federal response was a disaster with this guy as our chief medical ExPeRt.
Dude, Zerohedge is... uh... let's just say I'd independently verify anything they said.
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Deb Birx enabled many mixed messages months later when we had better information and that were far more dangerous.
Yep. For months and months and months, she provided cover to Trump's worst instincts and policy initiatives. When she finally got a conscience and finally spoke the truth, Trump called her "pathetic" and threw her out with the trash. There will be no truth here!
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Yep. For months and months and months, she provided cover to Trump's worst instincts and policy initiatives. When she finally got a conscience and finally spoke the truth, Trump called her "pathetic" and threw her out with the trash. There will be no truth here!
Wow. When I called her out in real time last summer saying she was a poser, I was attacked big time.
People here must like you better, Mike. :)
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Yep. For months and months and months, she provided cover to Trump's worst instincts and policy initiatives. When she finally got a conscience and finally spoke the truth, Trump called her "pathetic" and threw her out with the trash. There will be no truth here!
wet finger in the air-then when she heard all pro-45'ers will never work again, will be cancelled etc she did a big mia culpa, apologized, bent over, whatever it took to try to try to distance herself...following the science of course
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wet finger in the air-then when she heard all pro-45'ers will never work again, will be cancelled etc she did a big mia culpa, apologized, bent over, whatever it took to try to try to distance herself...following the science of course
Yeah, she should have stuck with your hero’s science: demon seed, hydroxy, disinfectant, and covfefe. If she had, like a miracle, it would have gone away!
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And if it was? How would that have the altered the abatement efforts from April of 2020 to now?
Zero. People just want to play the blame game for some reason. As if this revelation would somehow change the last year and a half.
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Long form article from Vanity Fair that explains history of china's research into coronavirus, bats, etc.
Despite the non-sequiturs about Trump and the right, it is a well written article.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins)
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Long form article from Vanity Fair that explains history of china's research into coronavirus, bats, etc.
Despite the non-sequiturs about Trump and the right, it is a well written article.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins)
Very informative article. While my current belief is that it is not from a lab, it absolutely needs to be investigated and I am open to changing my mind if evidence is presented.
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while likely not a smoking gun, if accurate, this fact is hard to overlook in identifying failures of the US scientific and journalistic community;
The idea of a lab leak first came to NSC officials not from hawkish Trumpists but from Chinese social media users, who began sharing their suspicions as early as January 2020. Then, in February, a research paper coauthored by two Chinese scientists, based at separate Wuhan universities, appeared online as a preprint. It tackled a fundamental question: How did a novel bat coronavirus get to a major metropolis of 11 million people in central China, in the dead of winter when most bats were hibernating, and turn a market where bats weren’t sold into the epicenter of an outbreak?
another well-written article that cites yours on the dismissal (in some cases, forced) of the Lab Leak Theory. A good takedown of right-wing "think tanks" as well.
Health experts who understood all along that it was entirely possible that the virus emerged from a lab simply refused to examine the hypothesis because it had become associated with the likes of Donald Trump.
A story in which the virus emerged from failed safety protocols at the Wuhan lab is not inherently more racist than a theory in which it emerged from a wet market. (If anything, blaming the pandemic on China’s people for eating bats lends itself much more easily to racism than blaming China’s government for lax security at its research labs.)
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lab-leak-hypothesis-covid-liberal-media-science-biden-trump-china.html
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This all sounds like a Connecticut conspiracy theory that I occasionally hear.
Lyme Disease originated from and escaped from Plum Island laboratory just of the coast of Connecticut.
People continue to ignore the fact scientists have proof Lyme was documented in colonial times.
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those "other experts" ain't saying anything 'bout fausolini's emails...nothing to see here, move along. waiting for more spin, but as i've said, to say the msm and fauci were a huge disservice to the american people and the world for that matter is an obvious understatement. we all suffered. now, china and fauci need to be held accountable. they were both lying to us repeatedly for over a year
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those "other experts" ain't saying anything 'bout fausolini's emails...nothing to see here, move along. waiting for more spin, but as i've said, to say the msm and fauci were a huge disservice to the american people and the world for that matter is an obvious understatement. we all suffered. now, china and fauci need to be held accountable. they were both lying to us repeatedly for over a year
Lol
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those "other experts" ain't saying anything 'bout fausolini's emails...nothing to see here, move along. waiting for more spin, but as i've said, to say the msm and fauci were a huge disservice to the american people and the world for that matter is an obvious understatement. we all suffered. now, china and fauci need to be held accountable. they were both lying to us repeatedly for over a year
I don't know how much Fauci should be held accountable. He never definitively dismissed the lab leak possibility. What I do appreciate about Fauci is that he was willing and open about his positions changing as understanding about the virus evolved.
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A good scientist is always open to new data.
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those "other experts" ain't saying anything 'bout fausolini's emails...nothing to see here, move along. waiting for more spin, but as i've said, to say the msm and fauci were a huge disservice to the american people and the world for that matter is an obvious understatement. we all suffered. now, china and fauci need to be held accountable. they were both lying to us repeatedly for over a year
you hate fauci so much, it's almost as if he's black!
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you hate fauci so much, it's almost as if he's black!
FFS man, you’re better than this
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those "other experts" ain't saying anything 'bout fausolini's emails...nothing to see here, move along. waiting for more spin, but as i've said, to say the msm and fauci were a huge disservice to the american people and the world for that matter is an obvious understatement. we all suffered. now, china and fauci need to be held accountable. they were both lying to us repeatedly for over a year
Mission Accomplished! The right-wing media has successfully whitewashed Trump's role and made him a hero in the COVID pandemic and shifted all blame to Fauci, at least in the "minds" of the dopes that gobble up this disinformation and cry for more...which is a frighteningly high percentage of one major political party's members.
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Mission Accomplished! The right-wing media has successfully whitewashed Trump's role and made him a hero in the COVID pandemic and shifted all blame to Fauci, at least in the "minds" of the dopes that gobble up this disinformation and cry for more...which is a frighteningly high percentage of one major political party's members.
i see your sources have already dumbed you down to the point beyond help...have a good one. and BLM cares about black people too...yikes
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you hate fauci so much, it's almost as if he's black!
that seems a little racist of ya 82, but i don't hate him, i hate what he's done to our country
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FFS man, you’re better than this
no he isn't! this is who he is. a race baiter; the true colors behind all that sanctimonious"do gooder love" facade
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FFS man, you’re better than this
The manchild is not better than this. He's proven over and over again. That he is a grown and with the maturity of a 5 year old and a sense of humor equivalent to a dairy cow. ( beef cows are funny, FTR)
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A good scientist is always open to new data.
I expected a "always be science-ing!" here.