Pretty amazing. The way he has been playing, he has a realistic shot at #3 by the end of the season. Maybe higher....
Barring injury or leaving for the NBA, he will set a mark that will likely never be touched.
Barring injury or early entry, he will probably be the new leader by around 500 points or moreI will take the over on this. He will easily score over 2500 points.
Spoke to a scout recently and he thinks Howard is four year guy. His age gives him that benefit, also size (lack of it and streakieness). He is currently not on any 2019 draft boards high enough to be cause for concern. A great college scorer for sure.
Pretty amazing. The way he has been playing, he has a realistic shot at #3 by the end of the season. Maybe higher....
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
MARKUS 1404 Through Buffalo
Gonna need some older Scoopers to help me on this one: Other than DJO who else is on this list with only three seasons?
Markus is an incredible scorer and a great shooter but his PG skills are actually really bad. His shot at the NBA is as a PG and he has a long way to go in that area.
Barring injury or leaving for the NBA, he will set a mark that will likely never be touched.
top career scoring average per game (minimum 2 years)
career avg (best season)
20.4 George Thompson (22.9) 3-years
19.4 Dwyane Wade (21.5) 2-years
19.0 Jim Chones (20.6) 2-years
18.8 Dean Meminger (21.2) 3-years
18.6 Don Kojis (21.4) 3-years
18.6 Mike Moran (20.4) 3-years
18.3 Bob Wolf (22.0) 3-years
18.2 Markus Howard (25.0 current) 2+ years
17.0 Terry Rand (20.3) 3-years
16.4 Tom Flynn (17.3) 3-years
16.2 Andrew Rowsey (20.5) 2-years
16.2 Ron Glaser (17.6) 3-years
15.7 Darius Johnson-Odom (18.3) 3-years
15.7 Maurice Lucas (15.8) 2-years
15.6 David Boone (15.9) 2-years
15.5 Larry McNeill (17.6) 2-years
15.3 Jerel McNeal (19.9) 4-years
15.1 Butch Lee (19.6) 4-years
14.8 Tony Smith (23.8) 4-years
14.6 Jae Crowder (17.5) 2-years
How many of the 3 year players were 3 years because freshman were not eligible?
Would be interesting to see what kind of career averages guys who were eligible their freshman years averaged from sophomore year on, given that typically the freshman year average would be the worst.
Funny how in the 60s people didn't seem to think frosh were ready to play with the varsity, and now we've seen many skip past 'em altogether.
I wasn't around back then, but from what I understand, kids now are spending way more time playing basketball prior to arriving on campus than they did 50 years ago. The training and level of competition they've been exposed to nowawdays is just so different. I can see how 18 year olds wouldn't be ready to compete at the collegiate level back then because they didn't have the same kind of experience beforehand like kids do now.
Still remember the quote when traci carter left - basically boiled down to him knowing the frosh was eons better than him from day one - he called it directly , said Howard would be the all time leading scorer for MU
FYI ... After redshirting last year, Traci is averaging 6.1 points, 3.7 assists and 2.8 rebounds while starting in all 12 games for 2-10 La Salle. He is shooting 35% from the floor (27-77).
Yeah, but he'd be averaging 20-10-10 for us, and we'd be undefeated!
Seriously, with Elliott out, we could use a few minutes a game from Traci. But he wasn't going to be satisfied with that role, and that's cool. He's not a P6 player, and he found a team close to home that plays competition better suited to his skill set. I wish him well.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
MARKUS 1430 Through Southern
Front page updated through tonight.
18 conference games plus at least two post season games …
If he continues to average 23/game x 20 games = 460 points + 1430 = 1890 points or #2.
Now if MU has 6 post season games instead of two (3 BET, 3 NCAA), and he still averages 23/game = 1982 points, three points short of the record.
Of course this assumes no injury, illness, slump etc.
Front page updated through tonight.
Let's see ... 1430 ... that means he could get to 1500 on Tuesday!
That also assumes his current scoring average drops. Admittedly, that seems likely in conference play, but if he maintained his 25.1 ppg average, he would only need 23 games to both pass McNeal and the 2,000 career point mark, assuming he stays healthy. In the process, he would also shatter Rowsey's one-year-old single season scoring record.
I basically think of Chartouny as Carter's replacement. I'll take Joe's size over Traci.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
MARKUS 1464 Through X
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
MARKUS 1464 Through X
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
MARKUS 1517 Through Creighton
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Gonna pass Steve durin' Seton Hall, aina?
Mite get Powell, two, hey?
He is now averaging 25.8 ppg.
There are 15 regular season games remaining this year. Add 3-4 (or hopefully a lot more) postseason games including BE Tourney and NCAA, he has probably 18-19 games left this season.
Even if he conservatively averages 22 ppg for 18 games, that's 396 more points.
Add that to his current total of 1517 + 396 = 1913 points. That puts him in 2nd place. Conservatively.
If he has a couple more big blowout performances (and no reason to think there aren't more 35+ point games in him)....Jerel's record is in serious jeopardy. This year.
Only three 3-year players in front right? DJO, meninger and GT.
Who is meninger?
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-east/leaders/pts-player-career.html
Markus now making an appearance on the all time Big East scoring. If he stays for 4 years, he should be a lock for NBE scoring champion (currently Bluiett, 7th overall with 2261).
Above statement also assumes that Ponds leaves after this year, which IMO is more likely than Markus leaving.
Who is meninger?
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
MARKUS 1543 Through Hall
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Only three 3-year players in front right? DJO, meninger and GT.
Who is meninger?
Next game should pass two more
Can't believe you don't think Markus can score 95 points next game to pass meninger, too.
I guess your lack of faith must be what a few on SOTG board are calling "Markus Fatigue."
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
MARKUS 1567 Through PC & STEVE GOT TO SEE IT
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Only two years.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
MARKUS 1590 Through DePaul
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
On a side note, Markus is leading the nation in free throws made. What is the MU single season record for free throws made?
On a side note, Markus is leading the nation in free throws made. What is the MU single season record for free throws made?
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
MARKUS 1621 Through X
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
But we'll hear about no 3 point line...
And more games per season
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
MARKUS 1653 Through Butler
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Here he comes...big guys to fall next game or two
What’s even more amazing is that he could potentially pass Travis Diener in the next game.
Looks like he’ll be in the Top 6 by the end of the day on NMD.
If he hits his season average, yes. But he's averaged only 9.5 ppg in 4 career games against St John's.
Long time caller, first time listener...
Curious who, from a power conference, in the past 20 years, has scored the most career points. Basically, someone from a power conference is more likely to go pro.
Yes, I ask a lot of questions around here. Thanks in Advance.
I would think Dougie Fresh and Tyler Hansbrouh (sp?) has to be up on that list
But we'll hear about no 3 point line...
maybe add a sub-section for Sam?
40. CROWDER, Jae 1049
40. MERRITT, Scott 1049
42. CRAWFORD, Chris 1048
43. SCHULZ, Rube 1042
44. CURRY, Ron 1040
45. JOHNSON, Dwayne 1027
45. MILLER, Tony 1027
47. FISCHER, Luke 1014
48. JOHNSON, JaJuan 1013
49. WALTON, Lloyd 1006
50. HAUSER, Sam 1003
Sam is also continuing to climb the list...Sam is averaging 15.5. With only 2 postseason games, that would put him at 1,288. 1 ahead Davante for 27th. Using the same average over 34 games for next year, he would end up sitting at 3rd all time just behind Lazar.
Could Markus realistically get to 3k?
4th ;)
In the post-game interview last night, they brought up the next couple games and Markus looked like he went to another planet in his head. He knows St. John's & Nova have been boogeymen, just like Hinkle was, and he's on a mission. I can't wait to see what he does with the off week to prep for St. John's & another several days to prep for Nova, both at the Fiserv. The guy's a savant, I feel like he's going to deliver us a masterpiece.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.Passes Bo
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
MARKUS 1670 Through STJBo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Passes Bo
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
MARKUS 1708 Through VU
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
How many points does MH have for the season and how far away is he from Rowsey’s season record set last year?
most points in a single season
points 'year (pts avg)
716 '18 Rowsey (20.5)
710 '03 Wade (21.5)
694 '18 Howard (20.4)
693 '09 McNeal (19.8)
689 '90 T Smith (23.8)
664 '68 Thompson (22.9)
641 '09 Matthews (18.3)
628 '77 B Lee (19.6)
623 '12 DJO (18.3)
616 '71 Meminger (21.2)
616 '10 Hayward (18.1)
614 '12 Crowder (17.5)
604 '19 Howard (25.2)
Slim. Need 40 games averaging 25 to get to 1000.
3 BET and 6 NCAA games gets us 49 games.
That means the BET finals and the NCAA finals.
3 BET and 6 NCAA games gets us 40 games.
That means the BET finals and the NCAA finals.
Jordan Howard isn't that far down the list either with 2524 pts. Wonder if they will be the highest scoring brother duo?
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/pts-player-career.html
This list only goes back to 1985, and so does not include Maravich and others, but a quick glance at the top 100 or so and I don't see any duplicate last names. That's rather unscientific, but I have a hard time believing that any brother DUO will beat Howard and Howard, especially if Markus plays a fourth year. They'll easily be over 4,500 by the end of 2019 (already at 4232) and could approach 5,500 by end of 2020.
Tyler and Ben Hansbrough have 4485 between them, which is the highest pair I can find.
Maravich averaged 39 shots a game plus 14 free throw attempts.
Espn has been running a SEC storied feature on him. A pretty good watch if you want to see him on the court.
article from SI on the 1970 NIT tournament which included Marquette facing LSU in the semis.
https://www.si.com/vault/1970/03/30/554189/the-upstaging-of-pistol-pete
only brothers ive seen on there were the Currys
For those who were around, what was it like watching Maravich play? I can’t even imagine a guy averaging 44.2 points for his career, especially without the 3 point shot. Didn’t we beat one of his LSU teams in the NIT?
only brothers ive seen on there were the Currys
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
MARKUS 1744 Through DePaul
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Butch goes down. DJ next.
For those who were around, what was it like watching Maravich play? I can’t even imagine a guy averaging 44.2 points for his career, especially without the 3 point shot. Didn’t we beat one of his LSU teams in the NIT?
6 more regular season games
2 BE games
2 (God I hope way more than 2) Tourney games.
25.0 ppg in 10 games = 250 more.......
That would put him 9 ahead of Jerel.
At this point, does anyone out there really doubt that he can??
Great one dimensional player who was shutdown tight by The Dream. Remember his father was his college coach.so the green light was always on.
How much did Lazar average his fresh year and who the hell is George Thompson? I'm 22 have mercy
As enjoyable it is to watch Markus, Pete was even better to watch. Had great range and with his size could score inside and outside. Coach Maravich let him do what
ever he wanted. Go on youtube to watch his game was amazing. He was in the old Milwaukee Classic, Wisky, MU, Florida St. with Dave Cowens, set rebound record for
that event and Pistol. It was one of the best early season events in the country at that time. Fun times. George Thompson was the MVP I think.
The mods should give you a vacation for this post.lol guess so..
George was the best player in MU history before 1977 and the color announcer with Homer on the radio for many many years. Look up at the next home game, his jersey (#24) was retired and hanging in the rafters.
Oh wait, you're 22 ... that means you think the dawn of creation began with Wade's triple-double against Kentucky.
Lazar Hayward wasn't a big scorer early on, averaging just 6.6 ppg his freshman season (2006-07). But that was on a team with Dominic James (14.9 ppg), Jerel McNeal (14.7 ppg), Wesley Matthews (12.6 ppg) -- plus experienced role players Dan Fitzgerald (8.1 ppg) and Ousmane Barro (7.4 ppg).Ty sir
George Thompson is one of the true greats to ever wear a Marquette uniform. He held the career scoring record for more than 40 years. His #24 is hanging in the rafters.
Great one dimensional player who was shutdown tight by The Dream. Remember his father was his college coach.so the green light was always on.
George Thompson is one of the true greats to ever wear a Marquette uniform. He held the career scoring record for more than 40 years. His #24 is hanging in the rafters.
Obviously, you never saw him play. Best ballhandler, Best passer, best shooter (with possible exception of the Pocket Rocket).
Another detail of this, is GT got the scoring record in only 3 years (Frosh weren't eligible to play back then). Some (old fogies) here look down on Jerel's and Lazar's records because they took 4 years. Markus eclipsing GT this year will be a big deal.
Edit:
To pour gas on the fire. It appears George got to 1773 in only 87 games.
https://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/george_thompson
Markus has already played 90 games at Marquette
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markus-howard-1.html
How much did Lazar average his fresh year and who the hell is George Thompson? I'm 22 have mercy
George is the GOAT 🐐
The only one who denies this is TC.
AL’s favorite player and The Godfather of MU Hoops. We owe it all to him.
Terry Rand and Don Kojis are The Godfathers of MU hoops... George Thompson took it to the next level.
There's a pretty good chance Markus is #3 after the Butler game. Wow.
Thoughts on Markus being to us what Scottie Reynolds is to Nova? Unreal college scorer that helps the program take a step to a new height?
I don't thing Markus is going to be around for 7 year (seriously...he was there for what felt like forever).
I don't think Markus is going to be around for 7 years (seriously...he was there for what felt like forever).
How much did Lazar average his fresh year and who the hell is George Thompson? I'm 22 have mercyI'm hoping someday some kid will invite a way to search for information like that at the press of a button.
People probably feel that way about Markus as well.
I guarantee it. If he comes back next year, fans of every other team in the conference will say, "Crap...he's still there? Hasn't he been there for seven years?!" I'm sure some have been saying it this year.
Thoughts on Markus being to us what Scottie Reynolds is to Nova? Unreal college scorer that helps the program take a step to a new height?
Another detail of this, is GT got the scoring record in only 3 years (Frosh weren't eligible to play back then). Some (old fogies) here look down on Jerel's and Lazar's records because they took 4 years. Markus eclipsing GT this year will be a big deal.
Edit:
To pour gas on the fire. It appears George got to 1773 in only 87 games.
https://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/george_thompson
Markus has already played 90 games at Marquette
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markus-howard-1.html
That’s who has popped into my head for the Markus NBA talk. Markus is a much better shooter and scorer, but I think Reynolds was a little taller. It always bummed me out that Reynolds didn’t really get much run in the NBA.
Also, let’s remember Thompson did it as a 6’2 1/2” forward.
Another angle, GT not playing as a freshmen allowed him to sit and get acclimated....Markus thrown into the fire as a 17 year old.
Points by GT as a 17 and 18 year old = 0, I believe. Markus has over 1000 points as 17 and 18 year old.
Of course MH has the huge benefit of the 3 point line.
Let’s also remember MH did a lot of this as a 17 and 18 year old.
Wow...the biggest Tom Crean stand of all time. Take a bow. You're definitely now invited to all the Crean kids' weddings.
We get it, George was a PITA to a small, select group of people in the 1212 building. I just wish TC would have had the balls to fire him from radio and unretire his number when Al was still alive. But that's not Tommy's style.
Seriously, give it a rest.
Sorry Mom!
It really is amazing to have a guy on the team that can go for 36 and our reaction is basically, "yeah...that's Markus...that's just what he does." He's been above 30 in four of the last five games. He's been above 30 eight times this year already. Amazing.
Out of curiosity, I looked back to see how many 30 point games we've had since the 2005-06 season* (the last year ESPN has the data readily available):
2018-19 (so far): 9 - Howard (8); Hauser (1)
2017-18: 13 - Howard (7); Howsey (5); Hauser (1)
2016-17: 1 - Howard
2015-16: 1 - Ellenson
2014-15: 2 - Carlino (1); Wilson (1)
2013-14: 0
2012-13: 1 - Blue
2011-12: 0
2010-11: 1 - Butler
2009-10: 0
2008-09: 2 - McNeil (1); Matthews (1)
2007-08: 1 - McNeil
2006-07: 0
2005-06: 2 - Novak (1); Amoroso (1)
Howard has had 16 in that time frame. All the others combined had 17.
*I just looked at the high scorer for each game. If we had any games with multiple 30+ performances (none come to mind), the second player is missing from the list.
Edited: missed a couple the first time.
Why? Crean pulled a chicken chit, bullchit move and disrepected the program. Hope he contracts crotch rot, hey?
Wait, I remember John Cliff (though I had forgotten him until seeing his name on that list) who did he hang 37 on? I don't recall him being that prolific of a scorer.
I'm surprised none of you older gents are freaking out that the Golden Eagle was given the number 77.
I'm surprised none of you older gents are freaking out that the Golden Eagle was given the number 77.
Feb 21, 1999 - Memphis
At the time it was the second highest points scored in a Conference USA game.
just reading the game story on this. Cliff came off the bench for 37. 6 of 9 3pt. Plus 11 rebounds. In a 81-79 loss at the Pyramid in Memphis. Isn't the Pyramid a Bass Pro Shops now?
I'm surprised none of you older gents are freaking out that the Golden Eagle was given the number 77.
And, hoo ewe kallin' an "older gent," hey?
Next year his number will be 19. ;)
You know what I find amazing? Last night Markus had the 13th highest scoring output for any MU player in the modern era, only bested by 4 other players not named Markus a total of 5 times (Tony twice). And to all of us it felt just like another day at the office.
You know what I find amazing? Last night Markus had the 13th highest scoring output for any MU player in the modern era, only bested by 4 other players not named Markus a total of 5 times (Tony twice). And to all of us it felt just like another day at the office.
Next year his number will be 19. ;)
At Markus' current pace...
- April 6, Final Four: If Marquette advanced to the Big East final & the Final Four, the first Final Four game is when he would be expected to surpass 1,000 points in a single season.
Isn’t that how old Markus is?
Points in a season ...
2. Hersey Hawkins 1125 1987-88 Bradley
Since 1985-86
Rank Player PTS Season School
1. Bo Kimble 1131 1989-90 Loyola Marymount
3. Jimmer Fredette 1068 2010-11 Brigham Young
4. Kevin Bradshaw 1054 1990-91 U.S. International
5. Glenn Robinson 1030 1993-94 Purdue
6. Hank Gathers 1015 1988-89 Loyola Marymount
7. Stephen Curry 974 2008-09 Davidson
8. Dennis Scott 970 1989-90 Georgia Tech
9. Kemba Walker 965 2010-11 Connecticut
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf 965 1988-89 Louisiana State
11. J.J. Redick 964 2005-06 Duke
12. Marcus Keene 959 2016-17 Central Michigan
13. Dennis Hopson 958 1986-87 Ohio State
14. Kevin Houston 953 1986-87 Army
15. Glen Rice 949 1988-89 Michigan
16. Trey Johnson 947 2006-07 Jackson State
17. Reggie Hamilton 942 2011-12 Oakland
Danny Manning 942 1987-88 Kansas
19. Doug McDermott 934 2013-14 Creighton
20. Stephen Curry 931 2007-08 Davidson
21. Reggie Williams 928 2006-07 Virginia Military Institute
22. Adam Morrison 926 2005-06 Gonzaga
Allen Iverson 926 1995-96 Georgetown
24. Buddy Hield 925 2015-16 Oklahoma
25. Alphonso Ford 915 1990-91 Mississippi Valley State
26. Stefon Jackson 908 2008-09 Texas-El Paso
Lionel Simmons 908 1988-89 La Salle
28. Lindsey Hunter 907 1992-93 Jackson State
29. Chris Clemons 904 2016-17 Campbell
30. Kevin Durant 903 2006-07 Texas
Charles Jones 903 1996-97 Long Island University
Armen Gilliam 903 1986-87 Nevada-Las Vegas
David Robinson 903 1986-87 Navy
There were some pretty serious scorers in '86-'87, '87-'88 and '88-'89. Those three years account for 10 of the 33 on the list, and they typically played fewer games back then.
[/list]
Feb 21, 1999 - Memphis
At the time it was the second highest points scored in a Conference USA game.
There were some pretty serious scorers in '86-'87, '87-'88 and '88-'89. Those three years account for 10 of the 33 on the list, and they typically played fewer games back then.
[/list]
Yup. Thompson was 19 with a year in the system before he scored his first point for Marquette.
DWade was almost 20 with a year in the system before he scored his first point for Marquette. And even with the 3 point line he only ended up with "only" 1281 points. So I guess Markus is better than GT and GT is better than Wade. LOL.
Wow...the biggest Tom Crean stand of all time. Take a bow. You're definitely now invited to all the Crean kids' weddings.
We get it, George was a PITA to a small, select group of people in the 1212 building. I just wish TC would have had the balls to fire him from radio and unretire his number when Al was still alive. But that's not Tommy's style.
Did anyone say Markus was better than Thompson or Wade? I may have missed it.
I modified my post but my point is WTF difference does it make how old players were when they scored their first point for Marquette? It's a talking point, and IMO a dumb one. When UW fans used to bring up how old Travis was this board used to laugh at them. Now Chico and Brew are basically doing the same thing in reverse. Some people are ready at 17. Some aren't. And some are but didn't get the chance. I didn't know that the younger one is the more their points counted.
DWade was almost 20 with a year in the system before he scored his first point for Marquette. And even with the 3 point line he only ended up with "only" 1281 points.
He also only played two years. He'd likely be the all-time leader had he played three years.
I modified my post but my point is WTF difference does it make how old players were when they scored their first point for Marquette? It's a talking point, and IMO a dumb one. When UW fans used to bring up how old Travis was this board used to laugh at them. Now Chico and Brew are basically doing the same thing in reverse. Some people are ready at 17. Some aren't. And some are but didn't get the chance. I didn't know that the younger one is the more their points counted.
Yes, but if you look at the NCAA records for most three-pointers in a season, most of the best seasons have been 2000 and beyond. And the few players from 1986–89 who are on the 3-pointer list don’t really overlap with the highest scorers. I think the high scorers I listed in bold were mostly just pure scorers.Believe 1986 was the first year of the 3 pt line in the NCAA.
In my experience, most college players improve as they age. To me, I don't think it's unreasonable to posit that Markus would have scored even more points in the same amount of games if he started as a 19 year old freshman, especially one who redshirtted a year and got to learn the system. That's impossible to prove and it certainly doesn't matter. No one is going to put an asterisk in the record book. But at least for me, it makes what Markus has done just a little bit more special. Just like the fact that Thompson put up all those points in only three seasons and a 6'2" PF without 3PT line makes what he did all the more special.
Yes, but if you look at the NCAA records for most three-pointers in a season, most of the best seasons have been 2000 and beyond. And the few players from 1986–89 who are on the 3-pointer list don’t really overlap with the highest scorers. I think the high scorers I listed in bold were mostly just pure scorers.
FWIW, here’s the 3-pointer in a season list:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/fg3-player-season.html[/list]
When UW fans used to bring up how old Travis was this board used to laugh at them.I am guilty of brining up that D'Mitrik Trice is older now as a sophomore for the Bagders than Markus will be when he graduates next year.
I assistant-coach high-level girls HS basketball. Two players on our team not only have the green light to shoot fast-break 3s but they are encouraged to do so. And we have a couple others who are encouraged to shoot open 3s in our half-court offense. Several of our half-court sets and inbound plays are designed specifically to get open 3s for our shooters.Same for NBA, but the reasons are pretty obvious. Kids weren't taught or encouraged to shoot long bombs prior to the 3 point line. It took a generation of the line to be in place for enough kids to come up through the ranks where this was a practiced and encouraged skill. It has revolutionized the NBA and actually made it watchable again. College no different. Best 3 point seasons naturally come after kids are given the greenlight to practice it, do it at the youth levels, high school and AAU, and then it ends up showcasing itself in college and the NBA.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
MARKUS 1772 Through Butler
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
So if we can get a W in the BE tournament and a W in the NCAA to stretch out the season to 9 more games then Markus only needs to average about 25ppg to beat Jerel right?
It would be incredible if he breaks this record in 3 seasons.
Talk about one of the most impressive things we’ve ever seen as MU fans
It would be incredible if he breaks this record in 3 seasons.
Talk about one of the most impressive things we’ve ever seen as MU fans
And yet half this board didn't think he should even be in a MU GOAT conversation...
And yet half this board didn't think he should even be in a MU GOAT conversation...
Is it half the board? Or is it a vocal half dozen that are still stuck in the 70s?
I don't think I'm stuck in the 70s but I also don't think Howard is anywhere near the MU GOAT. That's not a knock on Howard, its just some guy named Dwyane Wade played for us and he's going to finish his career as one of the top 50 basketball players of all time and that's being conservative IMHO.
I do think Howard belongs in the discussion for All Marquette First Team...though I'd probably put him on the second or third team.
I don't think I'm stuck in the 70s but I also don't think Howard is anywhere near the MU GOAT. That's not a knock on Howard, its just some guy named Dwyane Wade played for us and he's going to finish his career as one of the top 50 basketball players of all time and that's being conservative IMHO.
I do think Howard belongs in the discussion for All Marquette First Team...though I'd probably put him on the second or third team.
Wade was an all-time great, but he does gets bonus points from some for being a HOF NBAer, which Markus will never be. Even strictly only looking at collegiate career I think Wade is probably the MU GOAT, but Markus absolutely deserves to be in the conversation.
I guess it just depends on how you define conversation. If you mean he's one of the top 10-15 players to ever play for MU then sure I would agree he belongs in the conversation.
For me, the conversation is more like "Who's better, DWade or Markus?" "DWade by several miles, next question."
This is all opinion of course, but I would honestly be surprised if you could find one person on this board who would pick Markus over Wade.
MU GOAT, not what happened in the NBA. The guys who won a championship always get points for that, as they should. But it was a different era. 4 corners offense that helped MU in the championship. No 3 pt line. No shot clock. Freshmen ineligible. If Markus sticks around and MU has a couple of decent runs in the tourney, he is certainly in the conversation, though by no means a lock.
In a 3pt contest?
Release the PulloonsThis was good
Speaking of, Wade got picked over Novak for a 3 point contest at madness a few years back haha
Wade is a top 25 player of all time, but Novak is a top 5 unguarded shooter of all time (conservatively)
I guess it just depends on how you define conversation. If you mean he's one of the top 10-15 players to ever play for MU then sure I would agree he belongs in the conversation.
For me, the conversation is more like "Who's better, DWade or Markus?" "DWade by several miles, next question."
This is all opinion of course, but I would honestly be surprised if you could find one person on this board who would pick Markus over Wade.
Speaking of, Wade got picked over Novak for a 3 point contest at madness a few years back haha
Wade is a top 25 player of all time, but Novak is a top 5 unguarded shooter of all time (conservatively)
This was good
This was goodno it wasn't.
In fairness to the person that picked Wade, if I had to pick who I wanted on my team, I'm going to go with the future Hall of Famer. I could care less about actually winning a meaningless three point contest.
But yes, Novak is the right choice if you want to win.
There are a few I would pick who were better then Howard within this century at the college level. Wade obviously. But also Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and Steve Novak all come to mind as better. Lazar could also be in the conversation.
A lot of people get hard at seeing his 50 points and his average of 25. They fail to see a lot of other factors. Other facets of the game, offensive flow, defensive lockdowns, etc. That's not even considering the fact that compared to even 8 years ago, the game of basketball has changed a lot to favoring offense.
The fact that you can even ask this question kinda proves my point. Markus is the first player since Wade where you can even ask this question without being laughed at. The Amigos? No. Zar? Great player, but no. Any Juco? More great players, but also no. Markus is doing things at MU that have never been done, Wade also did things at MU that had never been done. That puts both solidly in the conversation IMO.
There are a few I would pick who were better then Howard within this century at the college level. Wade obviously. But also Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and Steve Novak all come to mind as better. Lazar could also be in the conversation.
A lot of people get hard at seeing his 50 points and his average of 25. They fail to see a lot of other factors. Other facets of the game, offensive flow, defensive lockdowns, etc. That's not even considering the fact that compared to even 8 years ago, the game of basketball has changed a lot to favoring offense.
DWade is clearly the best this century. But IMHO, Markus is right there in the conversation with Jimmy and Jae, and a clear step ahead of Steve and Lazar.Jimmy was more in the Lazar class at MU.
Jimmy was more in the Lazar class at MU.
Allow me to edit my original post then.
"Who's better DWade or Markus?" "LOL, DWade, next question."
The fact that we are even having this conversation speaks to the AMAZING player we get to watch the rest of this season, and hopefully next.
This ride is fun!
no it wasn't.Oh, well, Ok then, if you say so.
You do realize that this is openly admitting a goalpost shift right?
This also supports my argument. We're literally having the discussion right now, which means that Markus belongs in the discussion.
How many more 40+ point games would it take to catch Wade? IDk, but if Markus sticks around and not only becomes the programs first 2000 point scorer, but its first 3000 point scorer (not entirely outside the realm of possibility) will you still be saying that Wade is the GOAT and no one can catch him?
Yes, you shifted a goalpost. First it was "he's in the conversation." Then you said "he's in the conversation without being laughed at." Those are two different standards so I adjusted my answer.
As I said before, if your definition of "in the conversation" is that he is one of the top 10-15 MU players of all time then yes, Markus is in the conversation. My definition of "in the conversation" means that there are at least a few reasonable people would pick Markus over Wade as the GOAT. I don't think there is anyone who would pick Markus over Wade. ARod vs. Brady, you've got people on both sides. Jordan v Lebron, you've got people on both sides. Markus v DWade? It's one sided.
I never said no one can catch Wade. I'm saying Howard hasn't caught Wade as of right now. I also don't think he's particularly close. Honestly, putting up more 40 point games isn't going to do much to change my mind. He's already well in the conversation for and possibly is the MU GSOAT (greatest scorer of all time). What would change my mind is improvement in other parts of his game while maintain his absurd scoring numbers. More importantly, what would change my mind is if those 40 point games started happening in Sweet 16, Elite 8, and Final Four games.
I don't know about the 70s players because I wasn't alive but all D-wade has on Markus right now at the COLLEGE level is NCAA success. If we make a run this year (or next if he stays) Markus will have surpassed D-wade's time at MU without a doubt.
Wade will always be the better NBA player - but that's not what MU GOAT is about.
I posted this the last time we had this convo but I can't remember if it was this thread or another thread. Look at D-wade's 2002-2003 numbers. Look at Markus' this year - at best for D-wade it's a wash - but actually Markus is better.
And that was D-wade's best season by far. Markus already has had two solid years. If he stays next year he'll do it all over again. I love D-wade and all he's done for the program but to somehow maintain he's way ahead of Markus in terms of collegiate accomplishments is just ridiculous.
Recency bias.
I would have at LEAST 4 if not 5 guys ahead of him on the all time MU list. Need to look at the whole package, offense, defense, level of competition, etc, IMO. MH is outstanding, truly outstanding, but to use a baseball term he isn't a 5 tool guy IMO. We've had guys come through MU there didn't score at the level of MH (partly because of the offensive philosophy, teammates, coaching style), but had better all around games.
Recency bias.
I would have at LEAST 4 if not 5 guys ahead of him on the all time MU list. Need to look at the whole package, offense, defense, level of competition, etc, IMO. MH is outstanding, truly outstanding, but to use a baseball term he isn't a 5 tool guy IMO. We've had guys come through MU there didn't score at the level of MH (partly because of the offensive philosophy, teammates, coaching style), but had better all around games.
There are 100 players with better all-around games than Steph Curry in the NBA, but Steph is still a top 3 player in the league.
Sometimes impact or mastery of one essential skill > tools.
That said, Markus isn't D Wade. The stats are better but Wade's impact and team achievements speak for themselves.
I just don't get this. Wade's game against Kentucky was probably the best MU performance of all time, and perhaps on of the best in the history of the NCAA. Outside of that, he was a star, for sure, but he didn't go "video-game mode" with nearly the ease or regularity as Markus.
The FF was huge - and Wade was huge in getting us there. But that's ALL he has on Markus as a college player at this point IMHO.
There are 100 players with better all-around games than Steph Curry in the NBA, but Steph is still a top 3 player in the league.
Sometimes impact or mastery of one essential skill > tools.
That said, Markus isn't D Wade. The stats are better but Wade's impact and team achievements speak for themselves.
TAMU, you don't think level of competition has anything to do with it. 3 of 4 40+ point games for Markus came against high majors, and the 4th came against a top 25 mid major. That's a lot more impressive than dominating CUSA the way Wade did, Markus would already be at 2000+ points if he were in CUSA. Also, aren't you one of those that preaches that postseason games should be given the same weight as regular season games. If we win the Beast, win the BET, and flame out in the NCAA I'm sure you would be on the train saying that it was a successful season with a disappointing ending. Wade's triple double against the #1 team in the country is massively impressive (quite possible the greatest single game performance in MU history), but it's not more impressive just because it came in the tourney IMO. It would have been just as impressive if he had done that in a regular season game against the #1 team in the country.
DJO, I'll ask again, who is better, Wade or Markus? I've asked a couple of times and I have yet to see anyone volunteer to say "I think Markus is better than Wade." Even you said Wade is better than Markus. That's what the GOAT is, the "greatest of all time". If not one person objectively thinks Markus is better than Wade I don't think its much of a conversation.
As for the tournament thing, I preach that solely looking at "Loyola went to the Final Four, Virginia lost in the first round. Loyola was a better team than Virginia" is dumb. That doesn't mean that you discard achievements in the postseason. I believe that good players lead their team to success in the postseason. That's why I personally am on Team Brady in the NFL GOAT discussion despite being a packer fan.
I think right now, Wade was better, but I certainly think Markus is close, and in a very good position to catch and potentially overtake Wade. Even if he doesn't become an elite defender, distributor, or rebounder, his scoring is so elite that he can make up for it.
This seems somewhat contradictory. If a team has a bad performance in the postseason they can still be a great team, but if a player has a bad performance in the postseason, they get knocked for it. Was it you or Brew (or both) that was preaching "it's only one data point" after the I4 loss. Markus was objectively bad in that game, yet still is the favorite for Beast POY. If Markus goes on a tear and averages 30 per leading us to the regular season and tourney championship, but pulls an I4 in the tourney, he'd still likely be an AA.
Ill also ask again about level of competition. Where do you rank Chris Clemons, and Mike Daum in the college ranks. They'll both hit 3,000 career points, but because of the level of competition, I don't think they're anywhere near someone like Zion or Markus. Fair or not, Wade dominated in a lesser league. Markus is dominating against high majors night in and night out.
You have to admit, though, the Big East is down this year and that includes the elite players...right? Last year the Big East was stacked with some great players, this year there is talent but young for the most part.
I'm not going to pretend to understand how SRS and SOS are calculated exactly, but it would appear that the 2018-19 Beast is superior to the 2002-03 CUSA, by a fairly comfortable margin.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2003.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2019.html
Yes, because the bottom of CUSA was God Awful, but the top of it was better than the top of the current Big East.
Sagarin goes back that far and CUSA was ranked 7th overall and four teams in the top 47, including two in the top 10, one at 26th and one at 47th. This year's Big East is ranked fifth by Sagarin, but zero teams in the top ten (two ranked 19th and 20th), and one at 43rd and one at 49th. But at the bottom, Big East has only one team worse than 100, while CUSA had six, including one worse than 200.
CUSA was massively imbalanced, but the top of the league was very good, the bottom was horrific. This year's Big East is good, not great...no great teams IMO, no bad teams either.
Yes, because the bottom of CUSA was God Awful, but the top of it was better than the top of the current Big East.
Sagarin goes back that far and CUSA was ranked 7th overall and four teams in the top 47, including two in the top 10, one at 26th and one at 47th. This year's Big East is ranked fifth by Sagarin, but zero teams in the top ten (two ranked 19th and 20th), and one at 43rd and one at 49th. But at the bottom, Big East has only one team worse than 100, while CUSA had six, including one worse than 200.
CUSA was massively imbalanced, but the top of the league was very good, the bottom was horrific. This year's Big East is good, not great...no great teams IMO, no bad teams either.
I think right now, Wade was better, but I certainly think Markus is close, and in a very good position to catch and potentially overtake Wade. Even if he doesn't become an elite defender, distributor, or rebounder, his scoring is so elite that he can make up for it.
This seems somewhat contradictory. If a team has a bad performance in the postseason they can still be a great team, but if a player has a bad performance in the postseason, they get knocked for it. Was it you or Brew (or both) that was preaching "it's only one data point" after the I4 loss. Markus was objectively bad in that game, yet still is the favorite for Beast POY. If Markus goes on a tear and averages 30 per leading us to the regular season and tourney championship, but pulls an I4 in the tourney, he'd still likely be an AA.
Ill also ask again about level of competition. Where do you rank Chris Clemons, and Mike Daum in the college ranks. They'll both hit 3,000 career points, but because of the level of competition, I don't think they're anywhere near someone like Zion or Markus. Fair or not, Wade dominated in a lesser league. Markus is dominating against high majors night in and night out.
You and I disagree on the closeness and that's fine. Personally, I don't think Markus has caught Crowder yet and Crowder is behind Wade. Again, when you find someone who actually thinks Markus is better than Wade, let me know. Until then, I don't think there's any reasonable conversation to be had.
If a player only has bad performances in the postseason, they can still be a great player. But it's unlikely that they'll be the GOAT. Also just because I say Virginia was a great team last season doesn't mean I didn't knock them for woeful postseason performance.
Cheeks addressed this somewhat but Conference USA wasn't as bad as it is now. And it was certainly better than the conferences Daum and Clemons are currently playing in. Some really good teams at the top and some really really bad ones at the bottom. The level of competition argument doesn't really sway me. Wade was dominant against all levels of competition. You could have dropped him anywhere and he would have put up monster numbers and he showed that by turning in the most memorable individual performance in MU history against #1 Kentucky on one of the biggest stages. There's a reason why after college Wade was a top 5 pick. Now draft position doesn't mean he's the GOAT (because if it did Henry would be a lot higher on the MU pantheon than he actually is), but it is a testament to the talent and skill that he had.
This also supports my argument. We're literally having the discussion right now, which means that Markus belongs in the discussion. How many more 40+ point games would it take to catch Wade? IDk, but if Markus sticks around and not only becomes the programs first 2000 point scorer, but its first 3000 point scorer (not entirely outside the realm of possibility) will you still be saying that Wade is the GOAT and no one can catch him?
FWIW, I never said "no one can catch him." Could Markus get into the discussion if he has an incredible March and leads us to a FF? Maybe.
Either way, Markus is a remarkable player, a great kid and a joy to watch on and off the court. GOAT or not, we are extremely lucky to be able to watch him, so I'm gonna enjoy the ride.
I'm not sure about that. CUSA in 2002 had 2 top 11 teams according to Kenpom. Cincy was 2. Marquette was 11. Memphis was 33 and Charlotte was 40. Nobody else was top 60 and 6 teams were below 100.
In 2003, CUSA had 4 top 60 teams and 7 below 100.
2002 CUSA might be better than 2019 Big East. But 2018 and 2017 Big East were far better than anything CUSA offered.
Interestingly, our 2002 team was ranked better than our 2003 team (11 vs. 15)
FWIW, I never said "no one can catch him." Could Markus get into the discussion if he has an incredible March and leads us to a FF? Maybe.
Either way, Markus is a remarkable player, a great kid and a joy to watch on and off the court. GOAT or not, we are extremely lucky to be able to watch him, so I'm gonna enjoy the ride.
I took it directly from the site. Here is 2003 numbers, if you scroll to bottom it breaks each conference team out https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2003/conference/
9 Louisville
10 Marquette
26 Memphis
47 Cincinnati
67 DePaul
71 UAB
76 Saint Louis
91 Charlotte
111 South Florida
112 Tulane
152 East Carolina
158 Southern Miss
178 TCU
209 Houston
Cheeks attempted to shift the goalposts and tried to explain why CUSA was so bad, and got caught and called out for it. It also doesn't change the fact that CUSA was still objectively worse in 2003 than the BEast currently is.
We can disagree and that's fine, but I think it's more than fair to state that many people view Wade in higher stature than he actually was because he is a future NBA HOFer, because he played in a worse Conference (and was arguably the reason that we moved to a better conference), and because he achieved the postseason success that he did. I know hypotheticals are a slippery slope, but I think 82 has a good point in that if we had lost that game to Holy Cross, Wade may not be seen as the undisputed GOAT. Would one game have changed the raw skill and talent he possessed? No, but it would have altered his perception among the B+G tinted googles that we all wear.
How much did Lazar average his fresh year and who the hell is George Thompson? I'm 22 have mercy
George Thompson was the greatest warrior ever.
This also contradicts what you said earlier. You said that you were on the Tom Brady train for GOAT. I don't follow football very closely, but a quick google search tells me that he had a pretty dreadful time in the postseason in 2009. 3 interceptions and a fumble, that should disqualify him from the GOAT discussion right?
We're going in circles
Agree with this. We obviously value different criteria when evaluating this subjective topic. It was a fun, civil discussion that distracted me from a boring day at work ;D. Thanks for that. Lets find a new topic tomorrow.
No doubt CUSA 2003 was stronger than the 2018 BE at the top. I was just providing another set of data.
Wade played for 2 years. The first ended with a horrible first-round NCAA loss to Tulsa. The second came pretty darn close to ending with what would have been an even more horrible first-round NCAA loss to Holy Cross -- in a game that Wade, to put it generously, was not very good. What would his GOAT-ness level be if we had lost that game, or even the Mizzou game that Diener and Novak keyed?
Tulsa was 30 in the power ratings. Tulsa no way should have been a 12 seed, that was a ridiculous seed for them. They should have been a 7 to 10. That was the committee trying hard to get 12's to beat 5's. Three of the four 12 seeds won that year. We lost 71-69.
LIkewise, except I probably should have gotten more done at work then I did!
I don't think we're using different criteria, just asking different questions.
TAMU's question is:
1) Who is the best basketball player who ever happened to be at Marquette? D-wade clearly outshines Markus here.
The alternative question is:
2) Who is the player that had the best career at Marquette? Here I think one can make the argument that Markus has already outshone Wade here, and certainly will if we make a run this year or he comes back next year.
I'd say MU GOAT is the answer to the second question, but reasonable people can disagree!
We're going in circles so I'm just going to address this point because I think you misread my earlier post. I said if a player ONLY has bad postseason performances it is unlikely that they can be the GOAT. I never said that if a player has a single bad postseason performance that they can't be the GOAT. Brady has 5 rings and 4 super bowl MVPs to make up for that poor 2009 performance.Brady has 6 Super Bowl Rings
We have different definitions of "in the conversation" but seem to think roughly the same thing. Your definition means that he's one of the top 10-15 MU players ever, which I agree Markus is. My definition means that there are actually people who think Markus are better than Wade, which you seem to agree isn't the case. So we are just arguing over definitions and how close we think Markus is.
I don't think we're using different criteria, just asking different questions.
TAMU's question is:
1) Who is the best basketball player who ever happened to be at Marquette? D-wade clearly outshines Markus here.
The alternative question is:
2) Who is the player that had the best career at Marquette? Here I think one can make the argument that Markus has already outshone Wade here, and certainly will if we make a run this year or he comes back next year.
I'd say MU GOAT is the answer to the second question, but reasonable people can disagree!
OK, you convinced me. It was a wonderful loss.
Honestly, no. That's not my question. My question is a combination of the two. And honestly, I think DWade is beating Markus by a ton in #1 and comfortably in #2.
In Wade's first year he led a team to a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament where they lost in the first round.
In Markus' first year he was part of a team (at best we could say he was a co-leader with Sam, Luke, and JJJ) that got a 10 seed in the NCAA tournament and lost in the first round.
In his second year, Wade led a team to a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament where he turned in one of the most impressive individual postseason runs in MU history and practically carried the team to a Final Four.
In Markus' second year he was part of a team (again, many didn't even think he was our best player last season, some said it was Sam some said it was Rowdy) that earned a 2 seed in the NIT and won two games.
So far, Wade's career accomplishments far outrank what Markus has done IMHO. Individual accomplishments don't mean much to me, I care more about what your individual accomplishments did for the team. Now Markus is definitely leading the team this season and we look poised to match the 3-seed that Wade's team earned in his second year. If Markus also goes beserk in the tournament and leads us to a Final Four or even an Elite Eight then I think you start have more of an argument.
Let's not act as though those are all things equal 1st and 2nd Years. wade played four years in HS and then had a year of practice and weight training while Markus played three in HS and was thrown into the fire. I feel as though last year Markus and this year Markus would be better against wade.
In his second year, Wade led a team to a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament where he turned in one of the most impressive individual postseason runs in MU history and practically carried the team to a Final Four.
i love wade, and was at 4 of 5 games during the 2003 run - this is false.
Diener carried us against Holy Cross, and without Novak we likely go down in OT to Missouri in round 2. Wade carried us through Minnesota - with a lot of help from the rest. Against UK, Wade gets a lot of credit for the 29/11/11, but Robert Jackson had 24/15 - with great D on Estill and Novak was 5/8 from 3. Let's not pretend Wade was a 1 man show. Again, i think his spectacular NBA career has revised a lot of memories of the great 03 TEAM (lead by a future all time great) into Wade and a band of misfits.
i love wade, and was at 4 of 5 games during the 2003 run - this is false.
Diener carried us against Holy Cross, and without Novak we likely go down in OT to Missouri in round 2. Wade carried us through Minnesota - with a lot of help from the rest. Against UK, Wade gets a lot of credit for the 29/11/11, but Robert Jackson had 24/15 - with great D on Estill and Novak was 5/8 from 3. Let's not pretend Wade was a 1 man show. Again, i think his spectacular NBA career has revised a lot of memories of the great 03 TEAM (lead by a future all time great) into Wade and a band of misfits.
I'm going to apologize ahead of time for using a Guru saying.
Honestly, while the numbers are fun to look at, when discussing GOAT, I would use the patented GURU eye test more than stats, age, or tourney success. For example, the two best collegiate players that I have seen over the last 25 years or so each only played one year. One of them won the National Championship, while the other only made the round of 32. One averaged over 25 ppg, while the other averaged under 15. However, both won Naismith POY, and it was clear that both were clearly a class above their competition. Each of them developed into NBA superstars, but even if they hadn't, I still would have thought that they were the two best/most dominant players in a long time. The players in question? Durant and Davis. Durant gets the nod despite not making it to the second weekend of the tourney, and Davis gets it despite averaging less than 15 ppg. In my eyes, both were just in another class compared to their peers.
I use the eye test as well. That's the category that Wade dominates in more than any other.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
MARKUS 1786 Through PC
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
This is the first time I have ever heard of Eddie Bird (or Burd).Highest Scoring BrothersAll-Time College Basketball[/b]
Steph and Seth Curry 4,736
Tyler and Bob Hansbrough. 4,485
Larry and Eddie Burd. 4,405
Chuck and Wesley Person. 4,377
Markus and Jordan Howard 4,310
This is the first time I have ever heard of Eddie Bird (or Burd).
This is the first time I have ever heard of Eddie Bird (or Burd).
Whoops! :-[Believe it is Ben, not Bob
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
MARKUS 1811 Through VU
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
How about the season point list?
Rowsey 716
Wade 710
Markus 703
Highest Scoring BrothersAll-Time College Basketball[/b]
Steph and Seth Curry 4,736
Tyler and Ben Hansbrough. 4,485
Larry and Eddie Bird 4,405
Chuck and Wesley Person. 4,377
Markus and Jordan Howard 4,335
A record falls on Sunday....
Should he choose to return for his senior season, Markus w legit shot at all time Big East scoring record:
Troy Bell, BC, 2000-03: 2,632
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
MARKUS 1844 Through Creighton
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Believe he took the single season scoring record today too.
Yep.
Markus 736
Rowsey 716
Wade 710
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
MARKUS 1,878 Through GTown
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
This used to be fun
Respectfully disagree. The more video game moments Markus has, the closer it gets. Wade certainly had his fair share, but Markus is constantly closing the gap IMO.
LOL - Markus would not have been the best player on ANY of the last 10 Marquette teams Al coached. On most he wouldn't have been the second best. On one or two not even the third best.
This used to be funMarkus is already the leader in shots hoisted. How many 4 pointers did he make today? We’re in good hands
LOL - Markus would not have been the best player on ANY of the last 10 Marquette teams Al coached. On most he wouldn't have been the second best. On one or two not even the third best.
Even though he's had some poor games, Markus is a NPOY candidate this year. That's a fact. Any you're saying that he wouldn't even be the 3rd best player on a team from the 70s? ::)They did not have the three point shot back then. Markus might not of started on many of Al's teams.
Even though he's had some poor games, Markus is a NPOY candidate this year. That's a fact. Any you're saying that he wouldn't even be the 3rd best player on a team from the 70s? ::)
He was 3 weeks ago. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.
LOL - Markus would not have been the best player on ANY of the last 10 Marquette teams Al coached. On most he wouldn't have been the second best. On one or two not even the third best.
This used to be fun
Even though he's had some poor games, Markus is a NPOY candidate this year. That's a fact. Any you're saying that he wouldn't even be the 3rd best player on a team from the 70s? ::)
LOL - Markus would not have been the best player on ANY of the last 10 Marquette teams Al coached. On most he wouldn't have been the second best. On one or two not even the third best.
LOL - Markus would not have been the best player on ANY of the last 10 Marquette teams Al coached. On most he wouldn't have been the second best. On one or two not even the third best.
How quickly humans turn on someone/something is amazing to me
If George Thompson played 4 years he would have over 2300 points and that is without the shot clock or 3pt basket and playing in fewer games each season.
How quickly humans turn on someone/something is amazing to me
Markus could possibly break MUs alltime scoring record as a junior. That’s absolutely remarkable, incredibly amazing.
He’s had the best singular individual regular season of any MU player I’ve ever seen, yes even with the recent 4 game stretch.
We’ve been extremely lucky to witness it. I know it’s not easy for some but perhaps more positive rather than negative comments are in order
George did play four years. I opine that freshman stats should be added.
Its odd to think about this so early, but Markus will likely start his ascent past some all-time greats on the scoring list in the next few games.
Jerel McNeal - 1,985
MARKUS 1,908 Through STJ
Lazar Hayward - 1,859
George Thompson - 1,773
Dominic James - 1,749
Butch Lee - 1,735
Travis Diener - 1,691
Brian Wardle - 1,690
Tony Smith - 1,688
Wesley Matthews - 1,673
Bo Ellis - 1,663
Darius Johnson-Odom - 1,649
Damon Key - 1,647
Dean Meminger - 1,637
Trevor Powell - 1,571
Steve Novak - 1,567
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Don Kojis - 1,504
Bob Wolf - 1,479
Roney Eford - 1,471
Aaron Hutchins - 1,439
Back to being fun—go get Jerel!
Highest Scoring BrothersAll-Time College Basketball[/b]
Steph and Seth Curry 4,736
Tyler and Ben Hansbrough. 4,485
Markus and Jordan Howard 4,432
Larry and Eddie Bird 4,405
Chuck and Wesley Person. 4,377
You have updates for the season and all-time brothers records?
21. Mike Moran - 1,355
22. Russ Wittberger - 1,353
23. Cordell Henry - 1,347
24. Ron Glaser - 1,330
25. Terry Rand - 1,309
26. Michael Wilson - 1,299
27. Davante Gardner - 1,287
28. Tom Flynn - 1,282
29. Dwyane Wade - 1,281
30. Jim McIlvaine - 1,278
31. Jimmy Butler - 1,277
32. Sam Hauser - 1,244 - through St. John's
33. Anthony Pieper - 1,234
34. Doc Rivers - 1,234
35. Earl Tatum - 1,234
36. Oliver Lee - 1,227
37. Kerry Trotter - 1,221
38. Robb Logterman - 1,201
39. Bernard Toone - 1,103
40. Andrew Rowsey - 1,087
Sam continuing to move up as well.
Eddie Bird is really peeved today
So...he needs 77 points. For some reason, than number has a nice ring to it.
21 last night to put him at 1929.
Needs 57 for the record.
21 last night to put him at 1929.Hope he gets at least 3 games in which to do it!
Needs 57 for the record.
Hope he gets at least 3 games in which to do it!