SI research report on Big East Pre Season Rankings 2019-20

[Herman Cain]

DePaul has a good young class that could be good in a few years. Maybe they upset a team or two this season but they are still going to be nowhere near the tournament (or NIT).

Heron and Figueroa were the 3rd and 4th best players on a team that finished 88th in KenPom. The slew of transfers include a guy from Houston Baptist (333rd in Kenpom that year), a juco who only managed 4.1 points a game for Jacksonville (320th in Kenpom that year) as a freshman, a guy who averaged 5 points a game for Monmouth (295th in Kempom) this year, a guy who averaged 3 points a game for Mississippi State, and a former 3 star who appeared in 1 game for NC State (who I don't think is eligible for the first semester).

I have no doubt that Anderson will have them in fighting shape in a few years. But they will be very bad this season.

Agree that both schools are up against headwinds this year. However,  experience has shown these kinds of teams are thorns in the butt at the end of the season. they will both be classic Trap game type teams this year. So the actual difference in the top 8 teams in the league this year may end up coming down to who actually sweeps The Johnnies and DePaul.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Herman calling this a "research report" seems questionable.

[wadesworld]

Means no Hot Seat for Wojo. That is he will not be fired. He is well liked. He is the kind of coach MU wants. Results are secondary. Win or loose he will  continue as head coach. Time to move on.

So you are of the opinion that as long as "this administration" is in place the only way Wojo ever leaves is if he chooses to on his own?

Couldn't disagree more, but to each their own.  "This administration" has shown that they have no problem letting go of people if they are not getting their job done.

[PaintTouches]

No 8-10 NBE team has ever made the NCAAs.

St. John's did just this year.

[Spotcheck Billy]

St. John's did just this year.

They finished 7th not 8-10.

[PaintTouches]

They finished 7th not 8-10.

Why not both?
https://www.bigeast.com/standings.aspx?path=mbball

[Jay Bee]

No 8-10 NBE team has ever made the NCAAs.

Wat.

Not only did St John’s do it last year, but only 3 NBE teams have finished 8-10.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

They finished 7th not 8-10.

But their conference record was 8-10

[Dr. Blackheart]

St. John's did just this year.

I will give you St. John's and 7th.  That's it.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wat.

Not only did St John’s do it last year, but only 3 NBE teams have finished 8-10.

Who else other than SJU who finished 8-10 and made the NCAAs?  I don't see any in KPom (I see NIT).  I see Xavier at 9-9 and 7th. 

Point is, it's an anomaly. If we are relying on 6th or a 8-10 in a "strong" year, those are low expectations.

[Jay Bee]

Who else other than SJU who finished 8-10 and made the NCAAs?  I don't see any in KPom (I see NIT).  I see Xavier at 9-9 and 7th. 

As I mentioned, there has been ONLY 2 OTHER teams in the NBE to finish 8-10. It's not like a 1 of 20 or even 1 of 10... or 1 of 5.

Georgetown was a 4-seed in the NIT after losing in noncon to a bad Northeastern team and going 0-1 in the BEast tourney with a loss to lowly DePaul.

The other and more recent - way back in 2015-16 - was us. Our nonconf schedule had tons of absolutely pathetic opponents, including Grambling, Maine, Chicago St. and Presbyterian.

There was a reason both fell short.

8-10 can definitely get you in the discussion...

The point is only that it was a lie when you said it's never been done.. there's only 3 teams that fit that criteria.. and one made it..

[dgies9156]

Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?

If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.

If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.

My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.

The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You can define success as whatever you want. That is your right as a fan. Just don't expect hiring/firing decisions to be made based on fans' personal expectations. Very few coaches get fired immediately after making the NCAA tournament without off the court issues.

[MU82]

You can define success as whatever you want. That is your right as a fan. Just don't expect hiring/firing decisions to be made based on fans' personal expectations. Very few coaches get fired immediately after making the NCAA tournament without off the court issues.

Yep.

How Scoopers define "success" is meaningless as to the actual temp of Wojo's actual seat.

Not saying we can't or shouldn't talk about it -- that's what fan boards are for -- but I do always get a kick out of the "Wojo better win X number of games" or "Wojo better get to the second weekend" posts.

My reaction is always: Or else what? Some Scoopers will be mad?

[Galway Eagle]

Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?

If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.

If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.

My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.

The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.

This mentality I don't get. It's not like us younger alumni didn't see tournament success. Anyone at MU from 02-13 experienced consistent draft picks, great basketball, runs in the tournament, etc. the Al era fans don't corner the market on successful MU basketball, its not like Seton Hall where you were there for PJ or you don't know what basketball is

[Jay Bee]

If success is graduating all your players....He gets an "A" for all this.

Why would he get an A for the factual results that have occurred thus far? Look closely.

(btw, I'm fine with the graduation and non-graduation results thus far... but don't see how you'd call it an A)

[Herman Cain]

Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?

If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.

If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.

My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.

The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.

I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis.  The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success.  As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.

MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause.   MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that  fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn.  For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of  The Johnnies and DePaul.

My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years.  Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible. 

 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis.  The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success.  As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.

MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause.   MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that  fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn.  For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of  The Johnnies and DePaul.

My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years.  Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.

The last three years of the Wojo era have looked a lot like some of the pieces of the Crean/Buzz years. Already returning to that standard.

[Its DJOver]

I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis.  The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success.  As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.

MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause.   MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that  fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn.  For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of  The Johnnies and DePaul.

My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years.  Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.

You're thinking of X 2 years ago with a different coach. Nothing about their .500 record and 12 point home loss to DePaul plus blowout loss at us and blowing a 14 point second half lead at home against us with one returning player over 40% from three says 2nd best to me. I know how you're high on every Beast coach but Wojo, but Steele showed me very little to prove anything.

[Newsdreams]

I would like to add a supplemental codicil to your thesis.  The longer the current state of the program exists , the harder it will become for the program to return to the Crean/Buzz standard of success . We are now heading into year six of the current administrations definition of success.  As the years go by, the more successful Crean/Buzz MU standard gets further and further into the rear view mirror, it becomes harder to convince the truly elite players to commit to MU.

MU has to consider its relative position in the Big East. Villanova has pretty much staked out the top dog in the league status . For now, Xavier appears to have moved themselves into second. Although that is not a lock by any means. However, their consistent performance on the court and in recruiting has made them an attractive school for recruits which only furthers their cause.   MU is now in a dog fight with the rest of the pack, that  fbrawl has only gotten tougher with the addition of U Conn.  For now we can only safely say our program is ahead of  The Johnnies and DePaul.

My long held belief is that the best outcome for MU would be a good enough year from Wojo for someone from the P5 to take him off our hands. A win win win situation for everyone. MU would have many people line up for the job to replace him, given the assets and commitment made. I believe there are coaches out there that could make better use of the assets and restore the program to the consistent level of success that we saw during the Crean/Buzz years.  Once we get the program back to that level, then the possibility of moving it further is possible.

Talking to yourself again

[Herman Cain]

You're thinking of X 2 years ago with a different coach. Nothing about their .500 record and 12 point home loss to DePaul plus blowout loss at us and blowing a 14 point second half lead at home against us with one returning player over 40% from three says 2nd best to me. I know how you're high on every Beast coach but Wojo, but Steele showed me very little to prove anything.

Under the same first year  circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came  in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice   recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of. 

[Its DJOver]

Under the same first year  circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came  in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice   recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of.

So of Wojo had brought in 2 more Carlino's and gotten an NIT, had a great class (which he did BTW highlighted by an all american 1st round draft pick) you would have been tripping over yourself giving him praise?

I'm not saying that Steele is a bust, but 4 to 5 years to judge became a thing because it's kinda true.  Steele is still a question mark IMO. X has the potential to be a top 25 team next year, but until it actually happens I'll remain unconvinved.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Under the same first year  circumstances, Wojo delivered a 14-19 year. Steele came  in and immediately signed up 3 grad transfers to hold the fort , then signed 5 quality recruits for 2019. By the end of the season ,X was one of the top teams in the league. At the Big East semis, which I attended , they were clearly second best in the building. Steele has already secured two very nice   recruitsand also picked up two more quality grad transfers. Net net, he has done more ,with less , faster than Wojo could ever conceive of.

Steele took over a team that had earned a 1 seed and returned 4/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (though one decided to go overseas after Steele was hired)

Wojo took over a team that had missed the NIT and returned 1/7 of it's top players in terms of minutes (and the one was Derrick Wilson)

Not even close to "same first year circumstances"

[Cheeks]

Bottom line for all of this is really simple: How do you define success?

If success is graduating all your players, staying out of NCAA sanctions and occasionally getting to the NCAA, Wojo's a lifer. He gets an "A" for all this.

If, in addition to the above, you expect your team to consistently be a Top 10 squad, win in the NCAAs and be in the conversation for a NatChamp, then there is a lot of work yet to be done. We got real close with the coming year, until Hausergate. At best, Wojo gets a C-.

My fear is that as more and more of us who remember the NCAA Championship year and the McGuire years either pass, retire or wear our sweater vests, the standard of excellence to which Marquette aspires evolves to something we don't particularly like. We revere Coach McGuire but does Marquette truly seek to emulate the success he had? To do that means we have to go toe-to-toe with Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc.

The best way to honor Coach McGuire is to reach his level of success.

Different world back then.  Massively different.

If I read your middle paragraph correctly, we simply haven’t been successful since Al.  Not one coach since has made us consistently top 10.  In fact, we have only had a top 10 avg finish one time since Al left and that was 1978. 

http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.XUJQZMplChA


I’m just fine winning, winning often, staying out of trouble, and occasionally having a strong run.

[Herman Cain]

So of Wojo had brought in 2 more Carlino's and gotten an NIT, had a great class (which he did BTW highlighted by an all american 1st round draft pick) you would have been tripping over yourself giving him praise?

I'm not saying that Steele is a bust, but 4 to 5 years to judge became a thing because it's kinda true.  Steele is still a question mark IMO. X has the potential to be a top 25 team next year, but until it actually happens I'll remain unconvinved.

I am saying that X has a continuity of their program.  Steele so far has given several good early data points that point to that sustainability of X success.

Also Henry was not an All American.