MLB 2016

[Tugg Speedman]

Boston hasn't been out of the Top 5 in team payroll this century. They're the definition of a big market team

Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too.  By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.

[brewcity77]

The size of the TV market is really not that important in determining the success of the team. That's why we watch Pittsburgh and Kansas City in the playoffs every year.

Every year? Pittsburgh made it three straight years (though lost twice in the one-game playoff) after a 20 year drought. Kansas City made the playoffs the last two years after a 28 year drought.

The league may be making it more viable for smaller markets to get there, but the term "every year" doesn't apply to either of those teams. That's reserved for teams like the 1990s Braves or the recent Cardinals making it 12/16.

[Pakuni]

Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too.  By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.

Er ... White Sox payroll over the years:

2013 = #8 payroll
2012 = #11
2011 = #5
2010 = #7
2009 = #12
2008 = #5
2007 = #5
2006 = #4

It's like you're not even trying anymore.

[MUsoxfan]

Same with St. Louis so I guess they're a big marketi team too.  By your logic the White Sox of never been in the top 15 so I guess they're a small-market team even though they're in Chicago.

What are you talking about? The White Sox are often in the Top 10 and even Top 5 in terms of team payroll.

I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse or not.

[Tugg Speedman]

Er ... White Sox payroll over the years:

2013 = #8 payroll
2012 = #11
2011 = #5
2010 = #7
2009 = #12
2008 = #5
2007 = #5
2006 = #4

It's like you're not even trying anymore.

Such a waste, 1 playoff appearance, no series win.

So let's review.  This idea that small market teams cannot compete is you just saying you're not keeping up.  The rule changes in the last several years have really even things out.  The reason Milwaukee rarely makes the playoffs is they are not very good, ditto the white soxs.

Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking.  Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Out of curiosity, what was the white Sox payroll in 2005? I don't remember it being that high. I feel like Thomas was the most expensive person on that roster and he didn't even play.

[MerrittsMustache]

Out of curiosity, what was the white Sox payroll in 2005? I don't remember it being that high. I feel like Thomas was the most expensive person on that roster and he didn't even play.

13th at just over $75M.

Team   Payroll   Average
1.   New York Yankees   $205,938,439
2.   Boston Red Sox   $121,311,945
3.   New York Mets   $104,770,139
4.   Philadelphia Phillies   $95,337,908
5.   Los Angeles Angels   $95,017,822
6.   St. Louis Cardinals   $93,319,842
7.   San Francisco Giants   $89,487,842
8.   Chicago Cubs   $87,210,933
9.   Seattle Mariners   $85,883,333
10.   Atlanta Braves   $85,148,582
11.   Los Angeles Dodgers   $81,029,500
12.   Houston Astros   $76,779,022
13.   Chicago White Sox   $75,228,000
14.   Baltimore Orioles   $74,570,539
15.   Detroit Tigers   $68,998,183
16.   Arizona Diamondbacks   $63,015,834
17.   San Diego Padres   $62,888,192
18.   Florida Marlins   $60,375,961
19.   Cincinnati Reds   $59,658,275
20.   Minnesota Twins   $56,615,000
21.   Oakland Athletics   $55,869,262
22.   Texas Rangers   $55,307,258
23.   Washington Nationals   $48,581,500
24.   Colorado Rockies   $47,789,000
25.   Toronto Blue Jays   $45,336,500
26.   Cleveland Indians   $41,830,400
27.   Milwaukee Brewers   $40,234,833
28.   Pittsburgh Pirates   $38,138,000
29.   Kansas City Royals   $36,881,000
30.   Tampa Bay Devil Rays   $29,893,567

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2005payroll

[buckchuckler]

Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking.  Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.

Wait, you?  You are accusing someone of trolling?  The guy that changes his point non stop just to keep an argument going?  None of what you are spouting here makes any sense at all.  It is a guy being intentionally oblivious to everything. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

This is not how baseball defines it.  It defines it according to population.  That is why teams like St. Louis and Milwaukee get supplemental draft picks, to compensate them for being a small market teams. 

For instance the Cardinals drafted Y. Molina with a first round supplemental pick, given to them because they are small market.

Molina was a 4th round draft pick in 2000.

And where are you getting this "extra picks for small markets" from? AFAIK the only compensatory picks are for departing free agents and there are no extras for small market teams.

[Pakuni]

Such a waste, 1 playoff appearance, no series win.

So let's review.  This idea that small market teams cannot compete is you just saying you're not keeping up.  The rule changes in the last several years have really even things out.  The reason Milwaukee rarely makes the playoffs is they are not very good, ditto the white soxs.

Troll all you want, but learn from this and adjust your thinking.  Milwaukee is more or less on an even playing field with the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees.

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.

[brandx]

Molina was a 4th round draft pick in 2000.

And where are you getting this "extra picks for small markets" from? AFAIK the only compensatory picks are for departing free agents and there are no extras for small market teams.

Arguments are easier when you get to make stuff up

[MU82]

Wait, you?  You are accusing someone of trolling?  The guy that changes his point non stop just to keep an argument going?  None of what you are spouting here makes any sense at all.  It is a guy being intentionally oblivious to everything.

This is Smuggles' latest trick. He goes on and on, making one absurd point after another, and as soon as folks disagree with him, he accuses them of being "trolls." It's a classic case of "Pot, meet Kettle"!

It would be like me, with my lovely hairless scalp, not liking something Don King says and then accusing him of being bald!

As for the topic being discussed ...

When I think of market size, I believe a lot of it has to do with how much revenue each team brings in above and beyond what it gets from national TV contracts and other league-wide revenue sources.

The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox and several others have huge competitive advantages because they rake in far more money than other franchises do. Even if they have to pay "luxury tax," they still have that advantage. It's also why the Cubs are more of a "big-market" team than the White Sox even though they play in the same city.

It then comes down to execution. In recent years, Pittsburgh, Kansas City and others have simply done a better job of using their comparatively limited resources than the "big-market" teams have done. The Royals, Cardinals and a few others have done it so well, that it's making other, lousier small-market teams look like whiners when they complain.

[buckchuckler]

There are some teams that receive supplemental picks.  I think it is based on market.  There was a lot of outcry when the Cardinals did receive one.  The system is like 2 years old, so the idea of.molina being taken there is absurd.

[Blackhat]

I can only imagine how much money Attanasio is making this year with our shaved $40 million payroll.   I better see some big spending in the future.

[brandx]

I can only imagine how much money Attanasio is making this year with our shaved $40 million payroll.   I better see some big spending in the future.

He has shown he is willing to spend money when needed.

But the very last thing to do when re-building is to spend on high priced FAs. The Brewers minor league system is now ranked in the top 5. Once a few of these guys come up, then it is time to spend on quality FAs. For now it would all be wasted money.

[🏀]

Exactly. Small markets clubs will have short windows to compete and then guys get enough years to become FAs and move to the big markets where the money is. Then they have to re-tool all over again.

While I agree,  I meant they went for it by trading the farm for CC.

Also,  they're a solid top ten farm. Maybe top 5 by a service, but I don't think they're there yet.

[buckchuckler]

While I agree,  I meant they went for it by trading the farm for CC.

Also,  they're a solid top ten farm. Maybe top 5 by a service, but I don't think they're there yet.

They really sold out for Greinke as well.  That trade is one of the things that really has lifted KC. 

[brandx]

They really sold out for Greinke as well.  That trade is one of the things that really has lifted KC.

That's a good point, chuckler. It's how the small market teams have to jump in when the window opens.

[buckchuckler]

That's a good point, chuckler. It's how the small market teams have to jump in when the window opens.

Yup,  KC then went for it trading their top prospect (among others) for Shields and Davis

[brandx]

Yup,  KC then went for it trading their top prospect (among others) for Shields and Davis

the difference is that big market teams can make mistakes and not be decimated. Fielder in Texas is a good example. They have the $$$$ to overcome a horrendous move like acquiring him.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.

Because baseball instituted a salary scale for the first seven years of service ... Recall that is why the Cubs held back Kris Bryant last year, so they can get an extra season on the 7 years.  Baseball has a luxury tax that large market teams.  Also they give supplementary picks to smaller market teams.  They get more draft picks each year. They also give supplemental draft picks when you lose a free agent.

Baseball has given small market teams ways to compete.  That is through the draft and the salary scale.  St. Louis is a good example of a team that has taken advantage of it.

On the other side, the Angels are a crappy organization with lots of money.  Pu joins and Hamilton and other free agent have gotten them little.

[Tugg Speedman]

Nm

[Tugg Speedman]

There are some teams that receive supplemental picks.  I think it is based on market.  There was a lot of outcry when the Cardinals did receive one.  The system is like 2 years old, so the idea of.molina being taken there is absurd.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/85517450/12-teams-to-receive-supplemental-2015-draft-picks-in-competitive-balance-lottery-on-wednesday/

Major League Baseball's version of the Draft lottery doesn't attract nearly as much attention as its NBA and NHL counterparts, mostly because baseball's top picks aren't determined randomly like they are in the other sports. But for 12 big league clubs, the Competitive Balance Lottery on Wednesday will provide them with a valuable extra selection in 2015.

Introduced when the current Collective Bargaining Agreement came into play in December 2011, the Competitive Balance Lottery gives teams who have either one of the 10 smallest markets or 10 smallest revenue pools one of six additional choices after each of the first and second rounds. Additionally, any other clubs that are eligible to receive revenue-sharing funds are eligible for the supplemental second-round selections.

This year, the Athletics, Brewers, Cardinals, D-backs, Indians, Marlins, Orioles, Padres, Pirates, Rays, Reds, Rockies and Royals have a shot at the supplemental first-round picks. Whichever teams from that group don't get one of those will be eligible for the supplemental second-rounders, as will the Mariners and Twins. The lottery will be held Wednesday at 2 p.m. ET, at the Commissioner's Office in New York.

The extra selections take on added importance under the revised Draft rules, which assign bonus pools for each club to cover the first 10 rounds and impose the loss of future draft picks if the allotments are exceeded by more than 5 percent. In 2013, the six lottery picks after the first round added an average of $1,484,500 to their teams' pools, while those after the second round augmented their clubs by an average of $790,350.


The Tigers and Marlins made the first-ever Draft pick trade in July 2012. Detroit acquired Omar Infante and Anibal Sanchez from Miami in exchange for prospects Rob Brantly, Brian Flynn and Jacob Turner. Additionally, the Marlins swapped their Lottery choice after the first round (which became Knebel) for the Tigers' after the second.
There have been three other deals involving Draft selections. Also in July 2012, the Pirates traded Gorkys Hernandez and a supplemental first-rounder to the Marlins for Gaby Sanchez and Minor Leaguer Kyle Kaminska.

In July 2013, the Orioles sent prospects Josh Hader and L.J. Hoes and a supplemental first-rounder to the Astros for Bud Norris and an international bonus slot. Miami was involved in a third draft-pick trade this June, when it gave up a supplemental first-rounder to Pittsburgh for Bryan Morris.

The Royals are the only team to win Competitive Balance choices after the first round in each of the first two lotteries. They were awarded the top pick (No. 34) in 2013, which they used on left-hander Sean Manaea, who currently ranks 94th on MLBPipeline.com's Top 100 Prospects list. Kansas City also received the No. 40 selection in 2014 and tabbed catcher Chase Vallot.

[Tugg Speedman]

The New Draft Pick Compensation System
By Ben Nicholson-Smith | July 17, 2012 at 3:46pm CDT

For example, if the Brewers trade Greinke, his new team won’t be eligible for draft pick compensation. If the Brewers hold onto Greinke and make him a qualifying offer after the season only to see him sign elsewhere, Milwaukee will obtain a selection between the first and second rounds of the 2013 draft. The team that signs Greinke would lose its first round selection, but that selection would no longer go to the Brewers under the sport’s new rules.

Fewer players now bring in draft picks and those that do translate into one selection, rather than two. The changes will lead to to a drop in compensatory draft picks and an entirely new trade deadline dynamic.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your repeatedly false statements and incompetent arguments.
The Yankees team revenues were $516 million last year. The Dodgers made $438 million. The Brewers earned $234 million. This includes revenue sharing.
How in your world are these teams on an even playing field? The Yankees and Dodgers literally have twice the money to invest in players, coaches, scouts, player development, facilities, etc.

But it no longer translates into wins anymore because of the changes in the last few years.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/relationship-between-spending-winning-remains-low/

The graph below shows the relationship between the combined team payrolls from 2013 to 2015 and combined wins during those seasons.

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WINS AND PAYROLL- 2013-2015



As we can see by the fit line, the relationship is not great, but at .36, r is higher than the seasonal data, where the average yearly correlation coefficient was roughly one-tenth lower. The payroll in each individual season might not matter much, but cumulative spending does have some relationship to winning, even it is not a great one. With younger, cheaper players getting better in relation to their older, more expensive brethren over the last decade, it makes sense that money would have less impact on winning and that has been borne out over the last several seasons, including this year. While financial balance between franchises is not present off the field, and continued spending might lead to wins, payrolls in 2015 have not translated to wins, just as it has been for the last several seasons.

This study says the luxury and competitive balance taxes started in 2093 has worked and brought more balance into the game.

https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse140/13wi/projects/mirae-report.pdf

 To be clear the lecturing competitive balance taxes means the big teams write checks for the small teams. So not only just walk to get extra draft picks as shown above, the big teams will pay for them via the lot luxury and competitive balance taxes started in 2003.