Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[shoothoops]

No disagreement with any of that Hoops.  But at what point is did it become ok for Wright to just decide to leave?

Wright had expired tags, and, a gross misdemeanor warrant. At what point is it okay to use a taser on him because he tried to leave?

I am saying taser, not even a gun. A taser is violent. Do I believe the use of a taser in that situation was appropriate? No. Why? The suspect was not a threat at that point.

This doesn't mean we live in a lawless society where people can do whatever they want. But, when it comes to violence and use of force, appropriate use for a given situation matters. And appropriate use can fluctuate within a given situation.

The problem or challenge in this particular situation are the extreme.consequences of a particular action or actions. In this situation a poor decision can and did result in someone's killing and perhaps someone else's freedom.

Wright is the victim in this situation. He did not pose a threat at that time. His actions at that time did not warrant the use of a taser or gun. I want to emphasize taser in addition to gun. Are there other situations where a use of taser or gun are justified if not necessary? Sure. But this was not one of them.

Let's say Wright somehow is able to flee the situation. Is that a better result than someone being killed and another facing manslaughter charges? Were there zero other options than taser or gun?

Some people have a mindset that one must obey police at all times. If you don't, anything that happens after that is your fault not the police. This is an unhealthy, irrational mindset.


 

[Uncle Rico]

I have a minor side topic.  With all the talk of police reform and better approaches to community policing, which I largely agree with, what first hand experience with police elsewhere, whether from expat living or extensive travel, that you find aspirational and that the US could strive for more.  Obviously beyond "police in City X were so friendly and helpful when I visited, and I saw them being very kind to civilians".

Ive always thought the police in both the UK and Germany, from my experiences, were fantastic with de-escalation.  I still marvel at the self control of the police in London on riot duty during some of the most chaotic protests post-George Floyd and watching protestors leap barricades to throw punches or chucking stuff at the police and they literally just wrestled people back across the line before re-establishing positions, no arrests, no brawls.

Cultural differences. 

[mu_hilltopper]

I didn’t say that car registrations should be enforced. They shouldn’t necessarily be enforced by pulling people over. Save that for moving violations where there is actually harm to the public.

I mean do police pull people over if they are late on their taxes? 

Fair enough.     I think the question then moves to, is it a useful tool?  Does the policy of pulling people over due to a minor infraction have a societal positive?   

The data says yes.   Policing for minor offenses decreases overall crime.  Obviously, stop and frisk went too far, but .. if you have an actual offense, do you want to remove that tool from law enforcement? 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fair enough.     I think the question then moves to, is it a useful tool?  Does the policy of pulling people over due to a minor infraction have a societal positive?   

The data says yes.   Policing for minor offenses decreases overall crime.  Obviously, stop and frisk went too far, but .. if you have an actual offense, do you want to remove that tool from law enforcement? 

What happened in Brooklyn Center kinda suggests that pulling people over for expired tags isn't a net positive.

I mean, it would be effective if the IRS sent armed agents to collect income taxes too, but we don't do that. 

[MU82]

What we've been doing doesn't work. Let's not keep doing it.

De-escalate whenever possible. Violence-as-tactic only as a last resort. Enact policies requiring cops to intercede when a fellow cop is being needlessly violent or escalating a situation.

Decriminalize most drugs. Enact obvious gun legislation that even the majority of Republicans -- heck, even most NRA members -- support. Stop being for "law and order" only when it's politically expedient.

And no, making such changes would not guarantee that a George Floyd situation never happens again. There are no such things as absolutes in laws or law enforcement. Incremental changes, incrementally better results.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Put me in the camp of, I would rather see someone suspected of a non-violent crime flee the scene, then see them dead. If they flee the scene, you add to their charges, you track them down at a time where you can control the environment, and safely arrest them later. That is a better outcome than a dead civilian and an officer potentially facing charges. I don't think guns should be used as a deterrent to keep non-violent suspects from fleeing. If you can't arrest them safely without resorting to violence, let them flee, they're only adding to their sentence.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I agree with the 5-10% blame on the cop.  She went from exemplary veteran training officer to facing 10 years of jail time in the span of 20 seconds. 

The problem with the "why pull him over" question is .. if there's no enforcement, there's no point of a law.  I just paid my $130 to renew my sticker.  That's not a small amount, and with no enforcement it becomes an optional tax few would pay.

We only question the practice when the story gets into the news. 


In that vein, I think everyone would find this article .. disturbing:  https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

(one of the) TLDRs: When police reduce enforcement of minor laws, as is what happens after BLM type protests .. police shootings go down, but the murder rate goes up.  If true .. the price to pay for social justice is .. steep.

I'm sorry, but this is a hard no.   You pose the statement as if your resisting is a reasonable strategy because of "the system."

In every legal system, 100% of the time, resisting arrest will make your outcome worse (and not just for you, but incrementally for everyone after you too. )

We've heard the argument that follows .. if someone is resisting arrest, and in this case, trying to escape, then police policy should be to let them do just that, especially for a minor offense, like expired tags.

We could have that policy.  But if resisting or fleeing was a winning strategy, it would be quite popular. 

Instead of pulling someone over for expired tags maybe mail them a ticket instead?

[MuggsyB]

What we've been doing doesn't work. Let's not keep doing it.

De-escalate whenever possible. Violence-as-tactic only as a last resort. Enact policies requiring cops to intercede when a fellow cop is being needlessly violent or escalating a situation.

Decriminalize most drugs. Enact obvious gun legislation that even the majority of Republicans -- heck, even most NRA members -- support. Stop being for "law and order" only when it's politically expedient.

And no, making such changes would not guarantee that a George Floyd situation never happens again. There are no such things as absolutes in laws or law enforcement. Incremental changes, incrementally better results.

Is it also conceivable that by vilifying cops it will lead to far more violent crime and fewer people wanting to go into that profession?  In other words could it go from."not working" to working even worse?  And the suggestion that cops should not have weapons at traffic stops or dealing with mental health situations or the homeless is asinine.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And the suggestion that cops should not have weapons at traffic stops or dealing with mental health situations or the homeless is asinine.

Why?

[Hards Alumni]

Is it also conceivable that by vilifying cops it will lead to far more violent crime and fewer people wanting to go into that profession?  In other words could it go from."not working" to working even worse?  And the suggestion that cops should not have weapons at traffic stops or dealing with mental health situations or the homeless is asinine.

Authority figures will always be vilified.  You sign up for that when you decide to have authority.

Why do cops need weapons for traffic stops or to deal with mental health situations, exactly? 

Personally, cops shouldn't be dealing with either.  They should be serving and protecting... not being traffic enforcement and social workers.

I'm going to keep this nice and short since you love to not respond to anything longer than three sentences or so.

[GooooMarquette]

I didn’t say that car registrations should be enforced. They shouldn’t necessarily be enforced by pulling people over. Save that for moving violations where there is actually harm to the public.

I mean do police pull people over if they are late on their taxes?

This. We enforce all sorts of laws in the US without pulling people over.

[GooooMarquette]

Put me in the camp of, I would rather see someone suspected of a non-violent crime flee the scene, then see them dead. If they flee the scene, you add to their charges, you track them down at a time where you can control the environment, and safely arrest them later. That is a better outcome than a dead civilian and an officer potentially facing charges. I don't think guns should be used as a deterrent to keep non-violent suspects from fleeing. If you can't arrest them safely without resorting to violence, let them flee, they're only adding to their sentence.

Very well said, TAMU.

There is no need to Taze (or shoot) someone trying to flee when his only known or suspected offenses were non-violent.

[MU82]

Is it also conceivable that by vilifying cops it will lead to far more violent crime and fewer people wanting to go into that profession?

Perhaps ... so it's a good thing that not a single word I said nor any of the possible parts of solutions I suggested came close to vilifying cops.

Suggesting that cops shouldn't be violent when violence is unnecessary is not "hating cops," and the argument that it is gets tiresome.

What we are doing now is not working - period. Not for the victims, and not for the cops. To keep doing it ... THAT'S asinine.

[Lighthouse 84]

Why do cops need weapons for traffic stops or to deal with mental health situations, exactly? 

Great point.  Because bad guys don't drive with weapons in their cars, hey?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/28/sikh-deputy-houston-area-officer-fatally-shot-during-traffic-stop/3802158002/

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/new-mexico-cop-darrian-jarrotts-shooting-death-during-traffic-stop-video/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/us/tulsa-oklahoma-police-dead-traffic-stop-shooting/index.html

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/long-island-police-officer-stabbed-in-artery-during-car-stop/

https://apnews.com/article/stanley-shootings-virginia-01ed384aa7b4f9c98fd3f7b537356346

[jficke13]

Great point.  Because bad guys don't drive with weapons in their cars, hey?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/28/sikh-deputy-houston-area-officer-fatally-shot-during-traffic-stop/3802158002/

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/new-mexico-cop-darrian-jarrotts-shooting-death-during-traffic-stop-video/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/us/tulsa-oklahoma-police-dead-traffic-stop-shooting/index.html

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/long-island-police-officer-stabbed-in-artery-during-car-stop/

https://apnews.com/article/stanley-shootings-virginia-01ed384aa7b4f9c98fd3f7b537356346

Remove the dangerous element common to these situations: No more traffic stops.

[Hards Alumni]

Great point.  Because bad guys don't drive with weapons in their cars, hey?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/28/sikh-deputy-houston-area-officer-fatally-shot-during-traffic-stop/3802158002/

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/new-mexico-cop-darrian-jarrotts-shooting-death-during-traffic-stop-video/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/us/tulsa-oklahoma-police-dead-traffic-stop-shooting/index.html

https://nypost.com/2021/04/11/long-island-police-officer-stabbed-in-artery-during-car-stop/

https://apnews.com/article/stanley-shootings-virginia-01ed384aa7b4f9c98fd3f7b537356346

If the officers in these situations were unarmed and didn't attempt to do anything besides a traffic stop that they'd be dead?  Of course there is no way to know, but if you know when you're pulled over that it will be a completely non violent interaction why would anyone react so violently?  And of course, you can't stop everyone from being violent.

Also, those officers WERE armed and it didn't stop them from being attacked.  What might stop them from being attacked is if the suspect knew they wouldn't be met with the potential for violence.

I really don't understand why people think that the solution to violence is to increase violence.  That thought process has taken us to where we currently are, and it isn't a pretty place.

[Lighthouse 84]

Remove the dangerous element common to these situations: No more traffic stops.

Though some would argue, and I think rightly so, that enforcing traffic laws "serves and protects" the public.  Think it serves and protects the public if everyone is allowed to drive however, wherever and whenever they want?  Wrong way down one way streets?  No legal consequences for not obeying stop signs or lights?  How many times have you been on the road and some a$$hat cuts you off, is driving like a maniac or worse and you say out loud, where's a cop when you need him? 

Again, the cop shooting the guy is more than wrong, but it's insane to think we should do away with traffic laws and/or enforcement.

[MuggsyB]

Why?

Because there is no way to know what someone has in their car as we saw in New Mexico. Some homeless people commit violent crimes as well.  Also police are responsible for enforcing laws, not enacting them.  The laws are made by the politicians.  And those that are suggesting that the police should be defunded or abolished are btw living with security teams and behind barbed wire.  It's insanely hypocritical. 

I'm all for solutions about how best to reform police but the shootings of unarmed people in confrontations  of all races, is exceedingly low.   Reforming the police will require more funding, not less.   But from what I've read recently there are a lot of cops retiring early and fewer people wanting to go into the profession.  Violent crime is up btw.  Imo those areas that need the most help will suffer the most under the proposals that have been suggested.

[Hards Alumni]

Because there is no way to know what someone has in their car as we saw in New Mexico. Some homeless people commit violent crimes as well.  Also police are responsible for enforcing laws, not enacting them.  The laws are made by the politicians.  And those that are suggesting that the police should be defunded or abolished are btw living with security teams and behind barbed wire.  It's insanely hypocritical. 

I'm all for solutions about how best to reform police but the shootings of unarmed people in confrontations  of all races, is exceedingly low.   Reforming the police will require more funding, not less.   But from what I've read recently there are a lot of cops retiring early and fewer people wanting to go into the profession.  Violent crime is up btw.  Imo those areas that need the most help will suffer the most under the proposals that have been suggested.

Whatever man, I assumed you'd be open minded.  Guess I was wrong.

[mu_hilltopper]

I think you're taking what I was getting at a bit far.  I'm not excusing running away as a strategy, but I understand the desire.  If he gets arrested he knows he is done.  Everyone has a fight or flight system in their bodies, and his was probably in overdrive.  He was panicking.  Who wouldn't? 

The problem lies in that it is the officer's duty to make a safe arrest.  I'm suggesting that officers need to take into account that people in their custody need to be controlled firmly but safely.

You're suggesting that?  Super!  It's exactly what they are trained to do. 

The real problem is .. police have to often deal with people who are not having their best day.  For every hundred predictable elderly mini-van drivers, there's an unpredictable guy with a warrant who doesn't want to be captured.  Police are trained to evaluate that risk and respond accordingly.  Nobody wants to hear this, but doing the job flawlessly is impossible.

If they can't do that after 26 years on the force then they should have help.  Why is this officer making the arrest of Daunte Wright alone?  Wouldn't a team of two or more be able to prevent a situation like this?  If there are more officers needed, then call for backup.  If she was physically incapable of restraining him, then why was she making this arrest? 

Um .. you might want to watch the video as your comments are inaccurate.  She's not alone, she has two other cops with her, three in total.  (Why it's not just two hasn't been reported.)  Additionally, a different officer was putting the cuffs on, she approached to assist when Wright dove into the car.

Which brings up the next thought.  If you're a police officer trying to arrest a man with a warrant and he dives into his car, what is he trying to do?  Is it just a "simple" attempt to flee?  Or does he have a weapon in the car?   Uh oh.  Let him go?  Dive for cover?  You have 2 seconds, figure it out.

I'm not suggesting we just let criminals run away and not pursue, that would be silly.  I'm saying that instead of it was the duty of the officer to make a safe arrest.  She should have asked for help with a suspect that becomes physical.  I'm just a dumbass on a message board, but I can think of ways to solve problems like this fairly quickly, and I'd imagine I'm not alone.

If these officers are pulling over someone for tags and an air freshener and are then willing to escalate to an arrest based on the open warrant, then they should consider assessing the situation before making the arrest.  Instead of being methodical or calling for backup to assist securing the situation another snap judgement had to be made.  And now another American citizen is dead without due process.

So again, that's inaccurate, she was the helper to another officer who was cuffing Wright -- and the video shows how cooperative Wright was at first, getting out when asked, putting his hands behind his back without force being applied.  Everything was going perfectly until .. it wasn't. 

Indeed, it was routine.   But as Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they are punched in the mouth. 

Yep, those next 14 seconds are when your training should kick in and you do the exact right thing and use the exact right amount of force and everyone is safe.

26 years on the job and probably 100s of hours in training classes (both receiving and giving, as she was a trainer) .. and she made the tragic error.

4 days ago, that officer was exactly who society wanted on the job.  Well trained, decades of experience, all in the same community.   She grabs with her left hand and we're pleased a job safely done.  Now, she's facing 10 years in prison.

(There have been 18 accidental taser/shootings.  7 have been charged, 3 convicted.)

[Lighthouse 84]

If the officers in these situations were unarmed and didn't attempt to do anything besides a traffic stop that they'd be dead?  Of course there is no way to know, but if you know when you're pulled over that it will be a completely non violent interaction why would anyone react so violently?  And of course, you can't stop everyone from being violent.

Ok.  Two cops have no guns when making a traffic stop.  One cop walks up to the car, tells driver he stopped him for speeding and erratic driving and asks for his license and insurance.  Cop goes back to his car to write the ticket and learns that driver and the car fit the description of someone with a gun who just robbed a liquor store.  Cops call for back up to come with guns.  Driver leaves the scene.  But don't worry, the cops can just mail the ticket.  That's assuming the cops weren't shot by driver since driver knows cops don't carry guns to traffic stops.

The point is that it's not so cut and dried.

[jficke13]

Though some would argue, and I think rightly so, that enforcing traffic laws "serves and protects" the public.  Think it serves and protects the public if everyone is allowed to drive however, wherever and whenever they want?  Wrong way down one way streets?  No legal consequences for not obeying stop signs or lights?  How many times have you been on the road and some a$$hat cuts you off, is driving like a maniac or worse and you say out loud, where's a cop when you need him? 

Again, the cop shooting the guy is more than wrong, but it's insane to think we should do away with traffic laws and/or enforcement.

Never. Not a single solitary time.

I realize that this is a tangent, so the world is free to ignore, but police officers routinely cite traffic stops as one of the highest stress interactions that they have with the public. There are certainly incidents (some of which you've documented) where those who are stopped pose a deadly risk to those doing the stopping. It is also abundantly clear that for perhaps the majority of the public, being stopped is incredibly stressful as well. The rational thing to do is to relieve that pressure as much as is feasible.

Reduce traffic stops to those necessary to intervene in clear and present dangers to the public. OWI. Reckless driving. Amber alerts. Narrow public safety issues.  Rolled through a stopsign? Air freshener? Expired plates? Nope, nope, and nope. The ability to electronically surveil, identify, and issue citations absolutely exists. Certify over a video of the offense along with the ticket, mail it with a court summons, and everyone stays safe.

This will, of course, never happen.

[MU82]

Because there is no way to know what someone has in their car as we saw in New Mexico. Some homeless people commit violent crimes as well.  Also police are responsible for enforcing laws, not enacting them.  The laws are made by the politicians.  And those that are suggesting that the police should be defunded or abolished are btw living with security teams and behind barbed wire.  It's insanely hypocritical. 

I'm all for solutions about how best to reform police but the shootings of unarmed people in confrontations  of all races, is exceedingly low.   Reforming the police will require more funding, not less.   But from what I've read recently there are a lot of cops retiring early and fewer people wanting to go into the profession.  Violent crime is up btw.  Imo those areas that need the most help will suffer the most under the proposals that have been suggested.

Only idiots want police "defunded" or "abolished." Very few Americans from any party truly want it. "Defund the police" was horrendous messaging. And it's simply not going to happen, certainly on any scale. So it's now just a talking point that gives license to say: "Anybody who thinks cops ever do anything wrong hates cops. They all just want to defund the police, anyway."

What we're doing now is not working, for cops or victims. What about that is incorrect? You think everything is working swimmingly? Thoughts and prayers cover things well enough, so eff it?

[Hards Alumni]

You're suggesting that?  Super!  It's exactly what they are trained to do. 

The real problem is .. police have to often deal with people who are not having their best day.  For every hundred predictable elderly mini-van drivers, there's an unpredictable guy with a warrant who doesn't want to be captured.  Police are trained to evaluate that risk and respond accordingly.  Nobody wants to hear this, but doing the job flawlessly is impossible.

Um .. you might want to watch the video as your comments are inaccurate.  She's not alone, she has two other cops with her, three in total.  (Why it's not just two hasn't been reported.)  Additionally, a different officer was putting the cuffs on, she approached to assist when Wright dove into the car.

Which brings up the next thought.  If you're a police officer trying to arrest a man with a warrant and he dives into his car, what is he trying to do?  Is it just a "simple" attempt to flee?  Or does he have a weapon in the car?   Uh oh.  Let him go?  Dive for cover?

So again, that's inaccurate, she was the helper to another officer who was cuffing Wright -- and the video shows how cooperative Wright was at first, getting out when asked, putting his hands behind his back without force being applied.  Everything was going perfectly until .. it wasn't. 

Indeed, it was routine.   But as Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they are punched in the mouth. 

Yep, those next 14 seconds are when your training should kick in and you do the exact right thing and use the exact right amount of force and everyone is safe.

26 years on the job and probably 100s of hours in training classes (both receiving and giving, as she was a trainer) .. and she made the tragic error.

4 days ago, that officer was exactly who society wanted on the job.  Well trained, decades of experience, all in the same community.   She grabs with her left hand and we're pleased a job safely done.  Now, she's facing 10 years in prison.

(There have been 18 accidental taser/shootings.  7 have been charged, 3 convicted.)

You're right, shoot everyone.  I'm done trying to convince people that what we're doing is wrong.   It is unfathomable to me that you can look at the video and think, "Whoopsie daisy! She had a bad day."  You know who had a worse day?  The dead guy and his family.

Car door wide open, terrible arm restraint by the first officer... just two glaring things wrong before things went really sideways.  Tasers are yellow and are on the opposite hip and weigh a lot less than fire arms... Plus she had to flick the safety off her firearm... Tasers don't have them.   But you know, whatever.  She's just a cop who sleep walked through a dangerous situation but she was just doing her job!  And let's not forget that jobs can be hard!

I've said from the beginning that this was probably an accident, but that we need to do things to make sure it doesn't happen again.  I've clearly laid out what I think should be done, and what I get in response is dismissal.   Yes, being a cop is a hard job, and no it isn't for everyone.  But that's the thing, you can decide to NOT be a police officer.  You just turn in your badge and walk away. 

I understand you don't want to be in the business of second guessing split decisions that police have to make in the heat of the moment, but as a society, we need to be doing exactly that.

[Hards Alumni]

Ok.  Two cops have no guns when making a traffic stop.  One cop walks up to the car, tells driver he stopped him for speeding and erratic driving and asks for his license and insurance.  Cop goes back to his car to write the ticket and learns that driver and the car fit the description of someone with a gun who just robbed a liquor store.  Cops call for back up to come with guns.  Driver leaves the scene.  But don't worry, the cops can just mail the ticket.  That's assuming the cops weren't shot by driver since driver knows cops don't carry guns to traffic stops.

The point is that it's not so cut and dried.

Sure it is, in your scenario no one died.  Also, if you add my proposal, the person who just robbed the store probably isn't pulling over for a traffic cop anyway, nor is traffic cop pulling that car over since he already has the description before he even exists the car and has called in everything.  You're creating a situation that doesn't exist with my proposal.  This isn't Mayberry 1950, all cop cars are kitted out with real time data, cameras, and tech.

You do realize that the real world isn't a movie, right?