Pro-Jos V. No-Jos

[WhoaJoe2020]

Some on this board try to make the case that they are equivalent in their extreme positions. Let's look at the facts.

Pro-Jos after a big win: No inordinate amount of praise for Wojo or calls for his contract to be extended. Reasonable takes on the players performances. Good and bad. (See SOTG) (Towers post game thread).

No-Jos after a big loss: Trash comments and calls for Wojo to be fired. Often players are trashed in the same posts.

In fairness I'm not sure I've read a post by a " Pro-Jo " because I don't think anyone ever tried to sell the board on the fact that Wojo was one of the best coaches ever.

I have however, read many posts by the No-Jos who minimize his successes and magnify his failures to suggest that he is a totally incompetent and ineffective coach.

In conclusion, I would posit the notion that Pro-Jos are a straw man constructed by the all too real No-Jos to try to justify their extreme position.

By the way... If you are just a poster who isn't satisfied with our level of success in the tournament and want to debate how the program is trending(up or down) under Wojos leadership I'd love to hear your take. Based on overall athleticism, regular season success, recruiting, exciting players, and even coaching I think the trend is positive. Wojps biggest weakness IMHO is having the team focused and prepared for each opponent on a consistent basis. He seemed to have them prepared for Nova but I will reserve judgement until I see how they come out for the next stretch of games.

[rocky_warrior]

Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!

[jesmu84]

Yup.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!

I am not Wojo!!! ( He says as he slams his water bottle down on the keyboard )

[wadesworld]

I am not Wojo!!! ( He says as he slams his water bottle down on the keyboard )

(Only after chugging it.)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

[Cheeks]

Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!

I figured he was preparing for the caucus or primaries.

[WhiteTrash]

Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.

"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.

[rocky_warrior]

(Only after chugging it.)

I had the same misunderstanding as Whoa-Joe at the first reading of Ners story.  "Why would he slam his bottle....oooohhh".

[RushmoreAcademy]

It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.

[brewcity77]

I'm still firmly a Yo-Joe, because Snake Eyes was the man!

[WhoaJoe2020]

Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.

"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.

Somewhat confusing take but I think I get it.
You believe at this point in Wojos tenure there shouldn't be games like the Creighton game. I agree. The team seemed unprepared and lacked focus. I give Wojo and the team some credit for cutting the lead to six in the 2nd half but still the overall performance was unacceptable. Judging by Wojos post game presser he felt CUs players presented mismatches that were difficult to counter. I agree that it's his job to come up with a gameplan to deal with certain match ups. When we see them at home I expect to see adjustments. If not the trend will be negative. Of course, great coaches have their gameplans and teams prepared the first time they face every opponent. Wojo is not a great coach.....Yet

[Herman Cain]

It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.

When you get to a certain age , that is a good thing.

[WhoaJoe2020]

It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.

Here's someone who gets it.
The extreme No-Jos are practically sadistic when it comes to Wojo.
And again, I don't really believe that extreme Pro-Jos actually exist.
That's where the false equivalency comes in.

[rocket surgeon]

It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.

 i think it's mainly that the nojo'ers just want a little bit more, eyn'a?  and can ya blame 'em?   

[WhoaJoe2020]

i think it's mainly that the nojo'ers just want a little bit more, eyn'a?  and can ya blame 'em? 

Don't we all. I guess it comes down to how you behave when you don't get exactly what you want.

[Lennys Tap]

Some on this board try to make the case that they are equivalent in their extreme positions. Let's look at the facts.

Pro-Jos after a big win: No inordinate amount of praise for Wojo or calls for his contract to be extended. Reasonable takes on the players performances. Good and bad. (See SOTG) (Towers post game thread).

No-Jos after a big loss: Trash comments and calls for Wojo to be fired. Often players are trashed in the same posts.

In fairness I'm not sure I've read a post by a " Pro-Jo " because I don't think anyone ever tried to sell the board on the fact that Wojo was one of the best coaches ever.

I have however, read many posts by the No-Jos who minimize his successes and magnify his failures to suggest that he is a totally incompetent and ineffective coach.

In conclusion, I would posit the notion that Pro-Jos are a straw man constructed by the all too real No-Jos to try to justify their extreme position.

By the way... If you are just a poster who isn't satisfied with our level of success in the tournament and want to debate how the program is trending(up or down) under Wojos leadership I'd love to hear your take. Based on overall athleticism, regular season success, recruiting, exciting players, and even coaching I think the trend is positive. Wojps biggest weakness IMHO is having the team focused and prepared for each opponent on a consistent basis. He seemed to have them prepared for Nova but I will reserve judgement until I see how they come out for the next stretch of games.

Something to consider:

Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.

[MUBBau]

Nojo-ers
Noj-ers
No-ers
N-ers
Ners

[Lennys Tap]

I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.

Barring something unforeseen this season (positive or negative) this is where I stand.

[MU82]

Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.

"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.

I'm generally in this camp, too.

Of course, when I see Virginia not show up in losing by 29 points to a Purdue team we beat, and Nova barely register in the first half against us less than 2 weeks after beating No. 1 Kansas, and etc etc etc, I have to admit I'm a little less upset about our situation at Marquette. Stuff happens.

Believe me, I want us to "show up" for every game, but we're talking about humans -- the coach, as well as the players. Even the best teams don't always bring their "A" games.

Do I see a "trend" with Wojo's teams? I don't know ... what was Wojo's trend when we were going 20-2 from Nov. 23 to Feb. 23 last season? What was Buzz's trend when he was losing big to Dayton, Nova, Georgetown, Louisville, UNC, Notre Dame, Florida, Florida again, Louisville again, Syracuse, Ohio State, Creighton, St. John's, Creighton again and Nova again? (And I say this as a guy who really, really liked Buzz and was thrilled he was our coach -- even though he had some clunkers, as every coach does.) Did it make Scoopers happy when we were blowing several close games in a row late last season rather than being blown out a couple/few times a season? Was that a better trend for Wojo?

I generally think Wojo has done a good job. I think he is still growing as a coach. I was very disappointed (and worried) by Hausershima, but I like the way he responded -- by signing some outstanding recruits and coaching the guys who wanted to be Warriors to be competitive enough to beat the No. 10 team in the nation. Like you, I am in "wait and see" mode.

I also am a pragmatist, and I know he won't get fired after this season unless he goes something like 3-15. And maybe not even then. So even if I did feel he had to go right now (and I don't), going on the interwebs and bloviating non-stop about how he has to go ... it seems like wasted energy. I might as well scream non-stop that the interwebs should go away and newspapers return to the forefront -- another thing that's not gonna happen.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Something to consider:

Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.

First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.

 Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there. 

Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.

What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views  and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.

As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.

[WhoaJoe2020]

I'm generally in this camp, too.

Of course, when I see Virginia not show up in losing by 29 points to a Purdue team we beat, and Nova barely register in the first half against us less than 2 weeks after beating No. 1 Kansas, and etc etc etc, I have to admit I'm a little less upset about our situation at Marquette. Stuff happens.

Believe me, I want us to "show up" for every game, but we're talking about humans -- the coach, as well as the players. Even the best teams don't always bring their "A" games.

Do I see a "trend" with Wojo's teams? I don't know ... what was Wojo's trend when we were going 20-2 from Nov. 23 to Feb. 23 last season? What was Buzz's trend when he was losing big to Dayton, Nova, Georgetown, Louisville, UNC, Notre Dame, Florida, Florida again, Louisville again, Syracuse, Ohio State, Creighton, St. John's, Creighton again and Nova again? (And I say this as a guy who really, really liked Buzz and was thrilled he was our coach -- even though he had some clunkers, as every coach does.) Did it make Scoopers happy when we were blowing several close games in a row late last season rather than being blown out a couple/few times a season? Was that a better trend for Wojo?

I generally think Wojo has done a good job. I think he is still growing as a coach. I was very disappointed (and worried) by Hausershima, but I like the way he responded -- by signing some outstanding recruits and coaching the guys who wanted to be Warriors to be competitive enough to beat the No. 10 team in the nation. Like you, I am in "wait and see" mode.

I also am a pragmatist, and I know he won't get fired after this season unless he goes something like 3-15. And maybe not even then. So even if I did feel he had to go right now (and I don't), going on the interwebs and bloviating non-stop about how he has to go ... it seems like wasted energy. I might as well scream non-stop that the interwebs should go away and newspapers return to the forefront -- another thing that's not gonna happen.

I guess my first question is..... Which direction do you think the program is trending since the start of Wojos tenure?  I agree it's been a mixed bag but I see the program on an upward trajectory. It isn't obvious but data to support this conclusion is there.

My second question....... If the program is improving, is it improving fast enough and to an acceptable level of success? This is what I struggle with answering in the affirmative. Like most people I crave instant gratification and sometime have unrealistic expectations but at the same time have to guard against settling for less than the achievable. Last year I expected at least a second round game in the tournament so regardless of the factors (poor ego management by Wojo, injuries, fatigue)leading to the teams late season collapse the end result was unacceptable.

I guess I'm with the wait and see crowd at this point in the season but I'm leaning in a positive direction.

[Herman Cain]

Something to consider:

Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.

I agree with this analysis

First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.

 Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there. 

Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.

What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views  and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.

As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.

I think you are missing that fact that this is an  anonymous internet message board. The whole premise of the site among others things is a forum for debate.  We vigorously debate these issues day after day, week after week , year after year. That is why Crean Sucks and ND Sucks.

Over time people have moved up and down the spectrum in their view on the job Wojo is doing. In fact many people have evolved.

I think  it was fantastic that Mike Deans Dark Glasses reemerged and energized the debate for everyone. Makes it a better website to have multiple points of view.  He even put out a standard )(MDDGS) by which he could declare that Wojo was in fact the right guy for the job. We had a debate over how much of that standard was reasonable and achievable. 

If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site.   Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.

[Lennys Tap]

First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.

 Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there. 

Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.

What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views  and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.

As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.

Your “point” is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable  and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they’re (the nojos) so unreasonable.

IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else’s.

And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I’m all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.