MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 05, 2020, 05:49:43 PM
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Some on this board try to make the case that they are equivalent in their extreme positions. Let's look at the facts.
Pro-Jos after a big win: No inordinate amount of praise for Wojo or calls for his contract to be extended. Reasonable takes on the players performances. Good and bad. (See SOTG) (Towers post game thread).
No-Jos after a big loss: Trash comments and calls for Wojo to be fired. Often players are trashed in the same posts.
In fairness I'm not sure I've read a post by a " Pro-Jo " because I don't think anyone ever tried to sell the board on the fact that Wojo was one of the best coaches ever.
I have however, read many posts by the No-Jos who minimize his successes and magnify his failures to suggest that he is a totally incompetent and ineffective coach.
In conclusion, I would posit the notion that Pro-Jos are a straw man constructed by the all too real No-Jos to try to justify their extreme position.
By the way... If you are just a poster who isn't satisfied with our level of success in the tournament and want to debate how the program is trending(up or down) under Wojos leadership I'd love to hear your take. Based on overall athleticism, regular season success, recruiting, exciting players, and even coaching I think the trend is positive. Wojps biggest weakness IMHO is having the team focused and prepared for each opponent on a consistent basis. He seemed to have them prepared for Nova but I will reserve judgement until I see how they come out for the next stretch of games.
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Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!
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Yup.
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Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!
I am not Wojo!!! ( He says as he slams his water bottle down on the keyboard )
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I am not Wojo!!! ( He says as he slams his water bottle down on the keyboard )
(Only after chugging it.)
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/1ykChBsVX5mJA7shpn/giphy.gif)
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Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!
I figured he was preparing for the caucus or primaries.
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Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.
"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.
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(Only after chugging it.)
I had the same misunderstanding as Whoa-Joe at the first reading of Ners story. "Why would he slam his bottle....oooohhh".
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It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.
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I'm still firmly a Yo-Joe, because Snake Eyes was the man!
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Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.
"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.
Somewhat confusing take but I think I get it.
You believe at this point in Wojos tenure there shouldn't be games like the Creighton game. I agree. The team seemed unprepared and lacked focus. I give Wojo and the team some credit for cutting the lead to six in the 2nd half but still the overall performance was unacceptable. Judging by Wojos post game presser he felt CUs players presented mismatches that were difficult to counter. I agree that it's his job to come up with a gameplan to deal with certain match ups. When we see them at home I expect to see adjustments. If not the trend will be negative. Of course, great coaches have their gameplans and teams prepared the first time they face every opponent. Wojo is not a great coach.....Yet
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It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.
When you get to a certain age , that is a good thing.
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It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.
Here's someone who gets it.
The extreme No-Jos are practically sadistic when it comes to Wojo.
And again, I don't really believe that extreme Pro-Jos actually exist.
That's where the false equivalency comes in.
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It’s not that I even strongly disagree with the Nojo’s. It’s that they are so obviously erect while typing their posts.
i think it's mainly that the nojo'ers just want a little bit more, eyn'a? and can ya blame 'em? :D
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i think it's mainly that the nojo'ers just want a little bit more, eyn'a? and can ya blame 'em? :D
Don't we all. I guess it comes down to how you behave when you don't get exactly what you want.
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Some on this board try to make the case that they are equivalent in their extreme positions. Let's look at the facts.
Pro-Jos after a big win: No inordinate amount of praise for Wojo or calls for his contract to be extended. Reasonable takes on the players performances. Good and bad. (See SOTG) (Towers post game thread).
No-Jos after a big loss: Trash comments and calls for Wojo to be fired. Often players are trashed in the same posts.
In fairness I'm not sure I've read a post by a " Pro-Jo " because I don't think anyone ever tried to sell the board on the fact that Wojo was one of the best coaches ever.
I have however, read many posts by the No-Jos who minimize his successes and magnify his failures to suggest that he is a totally incompetent and ineffective coach.
In conclusion, I would posit the notion that Pro-Jos are a straw man constructed by the all too real No-Jos to try to justify their extreme position.
By the way... If you are just a poster who isn't satisfied with our level of success in the tournament and want to debate how the program is trending(up or down) under Wojos leadership I'd love to hear your take. Based on overall athleticism, regular season success, recruiting, exciting players, and even coaching I think the trend is positive. Wojps biggest weakness IMHO is having the team focused and prepared for each opponent on a consistent basis. He seemed to have them prepared for Nova but I will reserve judgement until I see how they come out for the next stretch of games.
Something to consider:
Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.
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I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.
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Nojo-ers
Noj-ers
No-ers
N-ers
Ners
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I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.
Barring something unforeseen this season (positive or negative) this is where I stand.
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Put me in the "Pro-Jo" camp. Me and my MU friends like Wojo and really want to see him do well (obviously). There is a lot to like but the on the court results have been lacking. If I had to grade the game results it would be C+/B-. Is it the players or coaching? Does not matter. Wojo is responsible. He did a terrible job against Creighton and an awesome job against VU and an all time coach in Wright Saturday. That seems to be the trend so far.
"Pro-Jo" but wait and see. I guess this might make me "No-Jo" to some.
I'm generally in this camp, too.
Of course, when I see Virginia not show up in losing by 29 points to a Purdue team we beat, and Nova barely register in the first half against us less than 2 weeks after beating No. 1 Kansas, and etc etc etc, I have to admit I'm a little less upset about our situation at Marquette. Stuff happens.
Believe me, I want us to "show up" for every game, but we're talking about humans -- the coach, as well as the players. Even the best teams don't always bring their "A" games.
Do I see a "trend" with Wojo's teams? I don't know ... what was Wojo's trend when we were going 20-2 from Nov. 23 to Feb. 23 last season? What was Buzz's trend when he was losing big to Dayton, Nova, Georgetown, Louisville, UNC, Notre Dame, Florida, Florida again, Louisville again, Syracuse, Ohio State, Creighton, St. John's, Creighton again and Nova again? (And I say this as a guy who really, really liked Buzz and was thrilled he was our coach -- even though he had some clunkers, as every coach does.) Did it make Scoopers happy when we were blowing several close games in a row late last season rather than being blown out a couple/few times a season? Was that a better trend for Wojo?
I generally think Wojo has done a good job. I think he is still growing as a coach. I was very disappointed (and worried) by Hausershima, but I like the way he responded -- by signing some outstanding recruits and coaching the guys who wanted to be Warriors to be competitive enough to beat the No. 10 team in the nation. Like you, I am in "wait and see" mode.
I also am a pragmatist, and I know he won't get fired after this season unless he goes something like 3-15. And maybe not even then. So even if I did feel he had to go right now (and I don't), going on the interwebs and bloviating non-stop about how he has to go ... it seems like wasted energy. I might as well scream non-stop that the interwebs should go away and newspapers return to the forefront -- another thing that's not gonna happen.
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Something to consider:
Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.
First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.
Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there.
Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.
What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.
As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.
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I'm generally in this camp, too.
Of course, when I see Virginia not show up in losing by 29 points to a Purdue team we beat, and Nova barely register in the first half against us less than 2 weeks after beating No. 1 Kansas, and etc etc etc, I have to admit I'm a little less upset about our situation at Marquette. Stuff happens.
Believe me, I want us to "show up" for every game, but we're talking about humans -- the coach, as well as the players. Even the best teams don't always bring their "A" games.
Do I see a "trend" with Wojo's teams? I don't know ... what was Wojo's trend when we were going 20-2 from Nov. 23 to Feb. 23 last season? What was Buzz's trend when he was losing big to Dayton, Nova, Georgetown, Louisville, UNC, Notre Dame, Florida, Florida again, Louisville again, Syracuse, Ohio State, Creighton, St. John's, Creighton again and Nova again? (And I say this as a guy who really, really liked Buzz and was thrilled he was our coach -- even though he had some clunkers, as every coach does.) Did it make Scoopers happy when we were blowing several close games in a row late last season rather than being blown out a couple/few times a season? Was that a better trend for Wojo?
I generally think Wojo has done a good job. I think he is still growing as a coach. I was very disappointed (and worried) by Hausershima, but I like the way he responded -- by signing some outstanding recruits and coaching the guys who wanted to be Warriors to be competitive enough to beat the No. 10 team in the nation. Like you, I am in "wait and see" mode.
I also am a pragmatist, and I know he won't get fired after this season unless he goes something like 3-15. And maybe not even then. So even if I did feel he had to go right now (and I don't), going on the interwebs and bloviating non-stop about how he has to go ... it seems like wasted energy. I might as well scream non-stop that the interwebs should go away and newspapers return to the forefront -- another thing that's not gonna happen.
I guess my first question is..... Which direction do you think the program is trending since the start of Wojos tenure? I agree it's been a mixed bag but I see the program on an upward trajectory. It isn't obvious but data to support this conclusion is there.
My second question....... If the program is improving, is it improving fast enough and to an acceptable level of success? This is what I struggle with answering in the affirmative. Like most people I crave instant gratification and sometime have unrealistic expectations but at the same time have to guard against settling for less than the achievable. Last year I expected at least a second round game in the tournament so regardless of the factors (poor ego management by Wojo, injuries, fatigue)leading to the teams late season collapse the end result was unacceptable.
I guess I'm with the wait and see crowd at this point in the season but I'm leaning in a positive direction.
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Something to consider:
Dividing people into two groups, one thoughtful, reasonable and virtuous and one stupid, venal and deplorable and then anointing yourself spokesperson for the former doesn’t come off well with most folks. Including the thoughtful in the group you’re trying to flatter.
I agree with this analysis
First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.
Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there.
Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.
What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.
As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.
I think you are missing that fact that this is an anonymous internet message board. The whole premise of the site among others things is a forum for debate. We vigorously debate these issues day after day, week after week , year after year. That is why Crean Sucks and ND Sucks.
Over time people have moved up and down the spectrum in their view on the job Wojo is doing. In fact many people have evolved.
I think it was fantastic that Mike Deans Dark Glasses reemerged and energized the debate for everyone. Makes it a better website to have multiple points of view. He even put out a standard )(MDDGS) by which he could declare that Wojo was in fact the right guy for the job. We had a debate over how much of that standard was reasonable and achievable.
If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site. Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.
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First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.
Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there.
Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.
What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.
As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.
Your “point” is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they’re (the nojos) so unreasonable.
IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else’s.
And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I’m all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.
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Frustrating as the Creighton game was, I'll happily trade an L at Creighton for a home court W over a Top 10 ranked blue blood every year, regardless of who our coach is at any given time. If it was inevitable that'd we'd go 1-1 for our first two conf games even before we played them, no MU fan, let alone Scooper, would wish those W's were reversed.
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If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site. Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.
True dat. I once got chastised by Dodds when I tried to agree with a point he made, but he didn't think I did so with sufficient enthusiasm. ::)
Competing viewpoints are good, as long as they are discussed rationally and respectfully.
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I think you are missing that fact that this is an anonymous internet message board. The whole premise of the site among others things is a forum for debate. We vigorously debate these issues day after day, week after week , year after year. That is why Crean Sucks and ND Sucks.
Over time people have moved up and down the spectrum in their view on the job Wojo is doing. In fact many people have evolved.
I think it was fantastic that Mike Deans Dark Glasses reemerged and energized the debate for everyone. Makes it a better website to have multiple points of view. He even put out a standard )(MDDGS) by which he could declare that Wojo was in fact the right guy for the job. We had a debate over how much of that standard was reasonable and achievable.
If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site. Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.
Competing thoughts I'm fine with.
Mindless negative trolling not so much.
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I like Wojo. He is a far better coach today than when he got here. He recruits well. The program is clean. And we can win. This is an important season. It is time to deliver. Keep playing like we did vs Villanova. Go Marquette!
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Your “point” is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they’re (the nojos) so unreasonable.
IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else’s.
And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I’m all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.
Lenny,
My comments where directed at WhoaJoe2020. I agree with your analysis. (i amended post)
n particular, You do a great job of pointing out Chicos biases over the years which I have found very enjoyable .
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Your “point” is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they’re (the nojos) so unreasonable.
IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else’s.
And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I’m all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.
And still you dodge the point of the original post.
If you want to call my analysis of Wojos tenure, based on verifiable facts, biased, so be it. He hasn't been great but he hasn't been the train wreck that some people(NoJos) make him out to be. That's my biased opinion.
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Competing thoughts I'm fine with.
Mindless negative trolling not so much.
There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up.
Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.
Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.
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True dat. I once got chastised by Dodds when I tried to agree with a point he made, but he didn't think I did so with sufficient enthusiasm. ::)
Competing viewpoints are good, as long as they are discussed rationally and respectfully.
And that's the difference between a NoJo and someone who is willing to articulate in a reasonable manner their reasons why they think Wojo should go.
Providing historical evidence of comparable coaches in similar circumstances getting the ax would go a long way in supporting the argument.
Citing his ten second mic"ed huddles, his monotone pressers, or the fact that he lost a road game to an 11-2 team as reasons, not so much.
Providing the name of a suitable replacement and guaranteeing the current recruits won't decommit would also go a long way in convincing people as to the logic of firing the current coach.
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I guess my first question is..... Which direction do you think the program is trending since the start of Wojos tenure? I agree it's been a mixed bag but I see the program on an upward trajectory. It isn't obvious but data to support this conclusion is there.
My second question....... If the program is improving, is it improving fast enough and to an acceptable level of success? This is what I struggle with answering in the affirmative. Like most people I crave instant gratification and sometime have unrealistic expectations but at the same time have to guard against settling for less than the achievable. Last year I expected at least a second round game in the tournament so regardless of the factors (poor ego management by Wojo, injuries, fatigue)leading to the teams late season collapse the end result was unacceptable.
I guess I'm with the wait and see crowd at this point in the season but I'm leaning in a positive direction.
The trend has been positive. I wish it were even better. This season will tell us more.
I am generally a positive person. When I go out with MU friends to watch any game -- something I do several times every season -- I often am the guy defending several of our players and the coach as my buddies nitpick everything to death.
If that means that sometimes I'm a little too positive, that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.
But I do get frustrated and concerned, just as any fan does. I gave Wojo more than half of the blame for Hausershima and I worried it would hurt his recruiting. He then landed an outstanding class, and again I'm positive. I hope his game coaching continues to improve, too.
Even if I wasn't positive by design, to me it would take too much energy to go on interwebs sites and demand over and over and over again that he be fired when I know he damn well isn't gonna be fired. I might as well demand that Lovell himself be fired. That isn't happening, either.
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Of course, great coaches have their gameplans and teams prepared the first time they face every opponent. Wojo is not a great coach.....Yet
Thanks WhoaJoe for a thoughtful response. There are many coaches I would never question after losing to Creighton on the road like we did, so it's not just that game. I just want him to get to the point where we can dismiss games like that as an outlier. And the Nova game was significant evidence it was. GO MU!
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There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up.
Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.
Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.
So celebrating a big win = trashing the coach and players after a tough loss?
That was the point of my original post.
The two are not equivalent.
As to your final comment..... Sadly, when it comes to a few of the extreme NoJos, I'm beginning to doubt that.
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Lenny,
My comments where directed at WhoaJoe2020. I agree with your analysis. (i amended post)
n particular, You do a great job of pointing out Chicos biases over the years which I have found very enjoyable .
I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc. Yup. But I acknowledge he is a good coach. I’m also not a win at all costs and never will be.
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I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc. Yup. But I acknowledge he is a good coach. I’m also not a win at all costs and never will be.
You have been consistent with that point of view over a long time . Others look at that same coach as the best since Al and don’t place as much weight as you do on the inside politics of his tenure at MU.
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Thanks WhoaJoe for a thoughtful response. There are many coaches I would never question after losing to Creighton on the road like we did, so it's not just that game. I just want him to get to the point where we can dismiss games like that as an outlier. And the Nova game was significant evidence it was. GO MU!
Actually, we need to see how he prepares for CU at home and VU at their place. Wright and McDermott are going to change up some things and I would like to see Wojo show more of an ability to adapt in real time. So far he's been mediocre at best.
And definitely......Go MU!!!
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Soso-jos are the silent majority.
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I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.
Agree with fluffy. No question he is a good recruiter, but his on floor coaching is mediocre. I do not buy that MU is trending up and use last year as evidence. The end of year swoon and Hausergate are on Wojo. Dont believe he has won a dance game and even failed to make the dance several of his years. While his incoming class for next year looks good on paper, he is also losing a lot. And I see a lot of pain next year when losing Howard. No go to guy will create more losses.
Think it is dumb to classify 2 camps, pro and no. Likely 90 to 95% of posters here want MU to have consistent high level success. So people should subscribe to that and recognize that after 5.5 years of Wojo, that has not been achieved. He may be a great guy personally, but he is the coach getting paid a ton with lots of nice resources, and is not taking team to a higher level.
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First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.
Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there.
Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.
What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.
As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.
What about the negative comments of some of the pro joes toward the nojoers.
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There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up.
Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.
Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.
I disagree.
Look objectively at the board after losses. Unabashed negativity.
Look objectively at the board after wins. Measured responses.
There is little comparison.
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Frustrating as the Creighton game was, I'll happily trade an L at Creighton for a home court W over a Top 10 ranked blue blood every year, regardless of who our coach is at any given time. If it was inevitable that'd we'd go 1-1 for our first two conf games even before we played them, no MU fan, let alone Scooper, would wish those W's were reversed.
This. I'd obviously prefer a closer margin, but the metrics also punish you more for home losses, so if you will split decisions like that, it's better to win at home.
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I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.
Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.
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MWGA=make Wojo great again, aina?
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I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.
Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.
Yes - I agree - so many times when the other team is going on a run/we're on a drought, the camera shots of Wojo just show him blankly staring like a deer in headlights. There is rarely a plan B in-game other than "Markus, go be an all-American".
But also giving credit where credit is due, I think one of the biggest gripes of the soso and nojos has historically been out atrocious our defenses have been. This year is a marked difference - both in terms of the computer numbers but also in terms of the "feel" that we can stop/hold teams even if we're not firing on all cylinders on O. That represents a real step forward IMO.
I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.
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There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach. In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program. My ratings are as follows:
Recruiting A
Clean Program A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary) A
Player Fitness B- (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy C Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching C- Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR B- Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success C getting there but not winning
BEAST Success B+
Beats Wisconsin C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice
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Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.
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There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach. In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program. My ratings are as follows:
Recruiting A
Clean Program A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary) A
Player Fitness B- (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy C Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching C- Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR B- Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success C getting there but not winning
BEAST Success B+
Beats Wisconsin C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice
Recruiting is solid but an "A"? He's had 1 top=10 class (2015), and two other top-40 classes years (2020 and 2016). Mane would be a huge get (and another top-10 class) but what kind of grade would you give him if he had top-40 classes each year? I'd say more like "B+"
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I disagree.
Look objectively at the board after losses. Unabashed negativity.
Look objectively at the board after wins. Measured responses.
There is little comparison.
Yes, this was my original point. Thank you for getting it.
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Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.
I've thought this as well
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Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.
If he's to stubborn go change his game plan, does he truly know basketball?
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Yeah I think he believes that executing the plan will work. Bo did this for years and won many games by doing the same thing over and over.
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Soso-jos are the silent majority.
I guess in a round about way that was the point I was trying to make.
I personally don't think there are ANY extreme ProJos who do nothing but sing his praises.
I also don't believe there are MANY extreme NoJos who do nothing but trash him. But it seems they do exist, and they become extremely active after a tough loss, trashing not only Wojo but often individual players by name.
I regret not making this distinction more apparent in my original post but that was the point I was trying to make.
If I was going to label myself, I too would put myself in the so-so jo camp.
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People wanted Crean fired. Buzz fired. And of course, Wojo fired. I supported Crean. I supported Buzz. Crean jumped ship. Buzz jumped ship. What will Wojo do?
Some people like to look into the crystal ball and see the next messiah of MU BB. That is just how it is. As Wojo would say, "Just noise to ignore so you don't lose focus."
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There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach. In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program. My ratings are as follows:
Recruiting A
Clean Program A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary) A
Player Fitness B- (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy C Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching C- Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR B- Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success C getting there but not winning
BEAST Success B+
Beats Wisconsin C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice
I don't know if you can train players to avoid hand injuries but otherwise your grades are in the same range as mine.
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I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc. Yup. But I acknowledge he is a good coach. I’m also not a win at all costs and never will be.
Your “sources” for the “other shoes” that never dropped.
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Yes - I agree - so many times when the other team is going on a run/we're on a drought, the camera shots of Wojo just show him blankly staring like a deer in headlights. There is rarely a plan B in-game other than "Markus, go be an all-American".
But also giving credit where credit is due, I think one of the biggest gripes of the soso and nojos has historically been out atrocious our defenses have been. This year is a marked difference - both in terms of the computer numbers but also in terms of the "feel" that we can stop/hold teams even if we're not firing on all cylinders on O. That represents a real step forward IMO.
I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.
I think we're probably on the same page. But your statement about a step forward is tricky.
If Marquette went 4-12 in conference, somehow won the BET, snuck in to the NCAA as a 10-11 seed and won the first game before getting blown out in the second.. would you really have faith again?
Or, would you have more faith in a top 2 conference finish, BET finals appearance and a first round OT loss in the NCAAs?
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I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.
Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.
Sorta like Wojo did against Maryland?
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I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.
Personally, I think you've been one of the most fair and consistent posters in that regard. Willing to give credit where it's due, willing to be critical when it's called for.
As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.
Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.
My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.
Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.
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Agree with fluffy. No question he is a good recruiter, but his on floor coaching is mediocre. I do not buy that MU is trending up and use last year as evidence. The end of year swoon and Hausergate are on Wojo. Dont believe he has won a dance game and even failed to make the dance several of his years. While his incoming class for next year looks good on paper, he is also losing a lot. And I see a lot of pain next year when losing Howard. No go to guy will create more losses.
Think it is dumb to classify 2 camps, pro and no. Likely 90 to 95% of posters here want MU to have consistent high level success. So people should subscribe to that and recognize that after 5.5 years of Wojo, that has not been achieved. He may be a great guy personally, but he is the coach getting paid a ton with lots of nice resources, and is not taking team to a higher level.
I guess where I disagree with you would be on the trend of the program year over year, and putting the end of season collapse and " Hausergate " TOTALLY on Wojo. The numbers speak for themselves as far as trending positive year over year goes. Sams hip, Gregs thumb, Markus being beat up, Joey hitting the freshman wall, and Wojos coaching were all factors in the late season collapse IMHO. And by all available accounts " Hausergate " occurred due to both parties actions. Again, not TOTALLY on Wojo.
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I think we're probably on the same page. But your statement about a step forward is tricky.
If Marquette went 4-12 in conference, somehow won the BET, snuck in to the NCAA as a 10-11 seed and won the first game before getting blown out in the second.. would you really have faith again?
Or, would you have more faith in a top 2 conference finish, BET finals appearance and a first round OT loss in the NCAAs?
That former scenario is pretty unlikely (I wouldn't take the parlay!) but even under your extremes I would say it is a pretty tough call. If we finished top-2 BE with BET finals appearances we're probably talking a protected seed. If we dropped a game in OT as a 3 seed, after our epic melt down last year as a 5, I think there would be a lot of questions asked.
If, on the other hand, we were able to turn a dismal conference season around by winning the BET and then pulling off an upset as an 11 I think I'd actually be happier with that.
But for me winning in March is everything.
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Personally, I think you've been one of the most fair and consistent posters in that regard. Willing to give credit where it's due, willing to be critical when it's called for.
As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.
Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.
My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.
Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.
Yeah, I think we're mostly on the same-page. Wojo turns in consistent C+/B- seasons. If you're pulling in a top-10 recruiting class every year then you can get away with that.
*Edit - and I've argued elsewhere here before that that is exactly what K is - he mostly turns in mediocre season results given the levels of talent he brings in - but the talent he brings in is so good "meeting expectations" is a FF or even NC game. That's a high bar.
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As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.
Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.
My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.
Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.
I love this post, brewski ... and I would, as it mostly sums up my feelings.
I think Wojo has great potential as a coach, but I have been mildly disappointed that we haven't made more progress than we have so far.
While wishing we had done better, I also have mostly enjoyed watching his teams play. And I do think we are very close to being a perennial top-20 team under him, which means a 5-seed or better every year.
Plus, I know what rebuilding means -- the likely loss of recruits and current players, and another long wait/climb under another new coach. Yes, the FIRE WOJO NOW brigade can point to a handful of occasions in which coaches have been able to rebuild quickly,but there are only a handful. Most rebuilds go just as the rebuilds under KO, Crean and Wojo have.
Besides, I know there is zero chance he is going to get fired this year, so I refuse to waste energy even contemplating it. I choose to appreciate the good team Wojo has built and hope that we will achieve the greatness that is possible.
FWIW, I also strongly supported KO, Crean and Buzz. Heck, I supported Deane until it became obvious that the program was going backward rapidly and I heard the reports of him spending more energy trying to recruit co-eds during his benders than athletes for our Warriors.
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He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team. Actually exceeded it in year 1. Postseason results are of course disappointing
I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz. Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller. Good, but not a program changer.
But I still feel like he has the potential to get there. I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce. My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
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If he's to stubborn go change his game plan, does he truly know basketball?
Maybe.... If by sticking to his system players improve game to game within that system. (See Creighton game vs the Villanova game). Player development throughout the season is a huge part of winning basketball.
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My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.
Definitely could happen.
Those Scoopers rooting for him to win just enough to be lured away by another program seemingly don't think this is even slightly possible, but I could see him going to a Maryland and winning huge while we go through another 3-4-5 year rebuild.
That fear wouldn't stop me from firing him if I felt he deserved to be fired. But I don't.
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He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team. Actually exceeded it in year 1. Postseason results are of course disappointing
I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz. Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller. Good, but not a program changer.
But I still feel like he has the potential to get there. I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce. My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
Exactly.... He's earning his stripes here. My hope is that he earns his stars here.
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"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.
Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!
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Which long-time poster is WhoaJoe? I get so confused with all these names...
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"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.
Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!
Ha - just what went through my mind - maybe the mods can create a sticky names thread so we can keep track of who is who!
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I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz. Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller. Good, but not a program changer.
But I still feel like he has the potential to get there. I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce. My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
This sums it up perfectly for me. Gut feeling he is turning a corner and just when he does he will be gone and hit his stride at another school.
Let’s just see how this whole season plays out. A big part of my gut feeling is success this year on the court. If we fail miserably then I am not immune to the reality that we may have to go in a different direction.
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"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.
Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!
I am indeed a first time poster on scoop.
I was motivated to start posting mainly out of frustration with the recruiting thread that was constantly being hijacked. I also frequented many of the Wojo debate threads and of course towers post game write-ups. I really appreciate some of the insight many posters share. I don't appreciate tangential gratuitous provocation leading to food fights that detract from the legitimate points being made by the OPs and those that respond to the OP.
It just so happens that IMHO a few extreme NoJos were often the instigators of these disruptions. I am a believer that it does matter who hit who first so I give a bit of a pass to the ProJos who were complicit in keeping the fights going.
And yeah, I've been posting a lot, but I've held my mud for a long time and this is me venting. No apologies will be forthcoming.
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He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team. Actually exceeded it in year 1. Postseason results are of course disappointing
I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz. Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller. Good, but not a program changer.
But I still feel like he has the potential to get there. I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce. My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
“ My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.” But that means if we have enough patience with him and support him, that can still happen here. It is happening. He is a better coach today than 5 years ago. I think in-game adjustments is an area to focus on. Otherwise, pretty solid. And I’m sure he knows what he has to work on. He’s a smart guy. He will bring a Marquette higher than anyone else who might come here now. So go Wojo! We Are Marquette!
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“ My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.” But that means if we have enough patience with him and support him, that can still happen here. It is happening. He is a better coach today than 5 years ago. I think in-game adjustments is an area to focus on. Otherwise, pretty solid. And I’m sure he knows what he has to work on. He’s a smart guy. He will bring a Marquette higher than anyone else who might come here now. So go Wojo! We Are Marquette!
I think this is a very important aspect surrounding optimism regarding Wojo. Didn't watch him a ton at I4 and haven't seen him at all at UGA, but Crean seems to be at about the same level he was a decade ago. Buzz was, and still is, better than Wojo, but IMO, his most impressive coaching season was with the midgets. The rate at which he has improved has frustrated, but Wojo has gotten better as a coach. If he continues to do so there's no reason he can't achieve the level of success that all want.
This is not to say that his teams have/will always get better on a year to year basis. Losing an All-American as part of a 4 man Senior class will almost certainly having us take a step back next year, but if Wojo continues to improve, we should all be satisfied with the results.
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Sorta like Wojo did against Maryland?
Did it wayyyyyyy to late after the game had already been decided. Should have done it against Creighton too
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Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.
This +1000 I have thought this since he's been here. Even if it's not working early on and it's obvious, it's like he thinks "okay this possession we'll get a stop etc etc". He's seemingly too stubborn to change things up ever. Or when he does, it's too late to make a difference.
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I think this is a very important aspect surrounding optimism regarding Wojo. Didn't watch him a ton at I4 and haven't seen him at all at UGA, but Crean seems to be at about the same level he was a decade ago. Buzz was, and still is, better than Wojo, but IMO, his most impressive coaching season was with the midgets. The rate at which he has improved has frustrated, but Wojo has gotten better as a coach. If he continues to do so there's no reason he can't achieve the level of success that all want.
This is not to say that his teams have/will always get better on a year to year basis. Losing an All-American as part of a 4 man Senior class will almost certainly having us take a step back next year, but if Wojo continues to improve, we should all be satisfied with the results.
This is true, but in a lot of ways won't next year REALLY start to tell us what kind of a Coach he really is, losing all that talent that he is?? If he can exceed most expectations for next year, THEN I think we can all be very hopeful that he is/will be the guy.
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This is true, but in a lot of ways won't next year REALLY start to tell us what kind of a Coach he really is, losing all that talent that he is?? If he can exceed most expectations for next year, THEN I think we can all be very hopeful that he is/will be the guy.
Well, I don't want to get ahead of myself talking about next year yet, because I'm still excited about this year but...
I think a lot will depend on how "ready" the Freshman are. Some recruits can come in and adjust very quickly, i.e. Markus. Some take longer, i.e. Vander.
What happens with the reamaining open scholarships will also go a fair way in determining what an appropriate level of expectations should be. All IMO of course.
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NM
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I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.
Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.
Agreed. It's almost as if Wojo didn't adjust to a 1-3-1 which completely changed how the team played over #1 Villanova.
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This sums it up perfectly for me. Gut feeling he is turning a corner and just when he does he will be gone and hit his stride at another school.
Let’s just see how this whole season plays out. A big part of my gut feeling is success this year on the court. If we fail miserably then I am not immune to the reality that we may have to go in a different direction.
Yeah I have a feeling there is definitely an inflection point here.
If we finish top 3 in conference, win a tourney game, and he lands Mane (or equivalent type grad transfer), then I feel like the administration, the fan base, and Wojo will all be on the same page in terms of comfort level with the program moving forward.
Might get dicey from 1 or more of those three stakeholders if there is a significant shortfall over the next few months (obviously also might not...)
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Did it wayyyyyyy to late after the game had already been decided. Should have done it against Creighton too
Goal post move complete! First it was that he doesn't make in-game adjustments, then when presented with an instance when he made the exact same adjustment you highlighted you change the complaint to he doesn't make the adjustments when you retroactively wanted them. What a crank.
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My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
This exactly. Wojo' first 5 years were okay. Rebuilt the program, showed promise on offense & defense, solid recruiting, & ran a clean program. If we were looking for a coach, he's the kind of guy we'd be happy to land. Easier to just consider this his second chance and see how the next few years go.
I can easily see him leaving for a Wake Forest or Maryland type job and turning them into a regular contender. Better to give him the chance to do it here, especially when the Board has so much faith.
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This is true, but in a lot of ways won't next year REALLY start to tell us what kind of a Coach he really is, losing all that talent that he is?? If he can exceed most expectations for next year, THEN I think we can all be very hopeful that he is/will be the guy.
I actually agree with this.
Wojo is the GM as well as coach. It is his job to bring in the talent, have balanced rosters, etc.
I am not giving him a "pass" for this season, nor will I give one to him next season.
But as DJO said, I'll judge next season when it comes. So much to look forward to this season still.
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Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.
So he's underachieved each season. I agree. Some people think he's gonna turn that around, others sense a pattern.
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This +1000 I have thought this since he's been here. Even if it's not working early on and it's obvious, it's like he thinks "okay this possession we'll get a stop etc etc". He's seemingly too stubborn to change things up ever. Or when he does, it's too late to make a difference.
Another possibility is that he wants the players to buy into the system he preaches, and he's worried that if he constantly abandons it the players will think he's full of $h!t and lose faith in him and the system.
There's a lot of new guys getting extended minutes this year, so buy in from the players is crucial.
Whatever the case may be, it still falls on Wojo to have the players focused and prepared to execute whatever game plan he draws up.
The VU game they were focused and prepared, the CU game they were not. The next few game will be very telling.
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Agreed. It's almost as if Wojo didn't adjust to a 1-3-1 which completely changed how the team played over #1 Villanova.
Obviously...Do you not understand the game of basketball?? Let me clue you in on a basic fundamental.. Usually when something isn't working for a team(and it's obvious when it isn't...see Creighton), then the Coach should be changing something up to see if he can get something else to work. It's game specific most times. But you know that and are just being a tool. Whether that be going to a zone, some back court pressure to slow a team down and keep them from getting into their offense when they want, traps, whatever. All good coaches have something else they can go to when what you normally do isn't working. Pretty basic/logical stuff.
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This sums it up perfectly for me. Gut feeling he is turning a corner and just when he does he will be gone and hit his stride at another school.
Let’s just see how this whole season plays out. A big part of my gut feeling is success this year on the court. If we fail miserably then I am not immune to the reality that we may have to go in a different direction.
Part of me says good....I'm so sick how some of our fans act that watching a guy leave and kill it elsewhere and do it the right way....we are wonderful as a fan based of bashing coaches (Majerus, Crean, Buzz, Wojo) and then we have our thumb up our butts when they leave and wonder why. Yeah, yeah, I know it comes with the territory that coaches take heat, etc....but if MU wants a guy to stick around for a long time we don't follow it up. And yes, I'll be the first to say I have plenty of concerns with one of those guys, but not for coaching acumen but other reasons.
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"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.
Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!
Look, you have been wrong so many damn times here it is laughable, but notch this one as another. I have no idea who this guy is, where he is, etc. I don't particularly care. I also don't believe he / her is going with my talking points, but again why not just go to a moderator to ask. This isn't hard....of course then you would have to admit you are wrong...can you do it?
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Goal post move complete! First it was that he doesn't make in-game adjustments, then when presented with an instance when he made the exact same adjustment you highlighted you change the complaint to he doesn't make the adjustments when you retroactively wanted them. What a crank.
LOL what good does it do to make a change from what your doing after it's already too late and the game is essentially over?? The whole idea of doing it is to try change the complexion of the game and put your team in a better position to win. Will it always work?? Of course not, but it may sometimes, and that might be all it takes to steal a win or two you may not have gotten otherwise.
Of course, Crean putting Chris Grimm on Alando Tucker(when no one expected that), or buzz switching to a zone in the middle of a game that completely changed it and helped MU come back and win, or Buzz putting Jimmy Butler on Tu Holloway in the NCAA's completely shutting him down. None of those things were strokes of genius were they?? Amazingly(or not so amazingly) they all worked perfectly. Go figure.
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Obviously...Do you not understand the game of basketball?? Let me clue you in on a basic fundamental.. Usually when something isn't working for a team(and it's obvious when it isn't...see Creighton), then the Coach should be changing something up to see if he can get something else to work. It's game specific most times.
Serious question. What do you think wasn't working offensively in the fist 12 minutes of the second half of the Nova game? It was very obvious that something was wrong, we only scored 5 points in those 12 minutes.
Follow up question. What adjustment do you think was made during the under 8 media TO in the second half? Clearly some change had to be made going from 5 points in 12 minutes to 20 points in the final 8.
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Part of me says good....I'm so sick how some of our fans act that watching a guy leave and kill it elsewhere and do it the right way....we are wonderful as a fan based of bashing coaches (Majerus, Crean, Buzz, Wojo) and then we have our thumb up our butts when they leave and wonder why. Yeah, yeah, I know it comes with the territory that coaches take heat, etc....but if MU wants a guy to stick around for a long time we don't follow it up. And yes, I'll be the first to say I have plenty of concerns with one of those guys, but not for coaching acumen but other reasons.
Dude you bashed Buzz mercilessly for 6 years, get over yourself
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Look, you have been wrong so many damn times here it is laughable, but notch this one as another. I have no idea who this guy is, where he is, etc. I don't particularly care. I also don't believe he / her is going with my talking points, but again why not just go to a moderator to ask. This isn't hard....of course then you would have to admit you are wrong...can you do it?
It's just interesting that's all!
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He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team. Actually exceeded it in year 1. Postseason results are of course disappointing
I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz. Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller. Good, but not a program changer.
But I still feel like he has the potential to get there. I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce. My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us. But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.
Pretty close to where I am....he has 100% met my expectations considering where we were, who we hired, etc. Where I disagree is on the program changer part....programs are more than just wins and losses, and in other ways he has changed the program.
He has a fan for life in me unless he does something really stupid (i.e. cheating, covering up, etc). I just hope it's at MU. I want to see him with more elite talent, which is starting to come in next year. A lot of what we have been doing is with 3 star guys or 3.5 star (guys rated 3 or 4). Ellenson was a marriage of convenience for us and him. It sucks about the Hausers, but the team hasn't sulked about it like so many of our fans here have.
I was all in on Shaka when it surfaced he was a done deal....I was wrong it appears. I feel differently about Wojo, still think he is getting better each year.
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So he's underachieved each season. I agree. Some people think he's gonna turn that around, others sense a pattern.
If he can continue to reel in recruits like Ellenson, Howard, Hauser, Torrence, & Garcia, he may not have to. If you can develop a roster that is among the most talented in the country, underachieving can still mean good results, and even only occasionally meeting expectations can be a season for the ages.
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Dude you bashed Buzz mercilessly for 6 years, get over yourself
False. I even said he should be coach of the year endlessly. I can provide you with 100's of examples, but of course you would ignore them as usual. Six years...totally false. Did I bash him a lot...yup. For some things that were not basketball related....absolutely.
Guess what I NEVER did. Search it until your hearts content. NOT ONE TIME did I say he should be fired. NOT ONE DAMN TIME.
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LOL what good does it do to make a change from what your doing after it's already too late and the game is essentially over??
And when given two examples, you change the complaint and/or ignore he evidence. You seem to live for being miserable.
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Part of me says good....I'm so sick how some of our fans act that watching a guy leave and kill it elsewhere and do it the right way....we are wonderful as a fan based of bashing coaches (Majerus, Crean, Buzz, Wojo) and then we have our thumb up our butts when they leave and wonder why. Yeah, yeah, I know it comes with the territory that coaches take heat, etc....but if MU wants a guy to stick around for a long time we don't follow it up. And yes, I'll be the first to say I have plenty of concerns with one of those guys, but not for coaching acumen but other reasons.
Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?
To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.
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If he can continue to reel in recruits like Ellenson, Howard, Hauser, Torrence, & Garcia, he may not have to. If you can develop a roster that is among the most talented in the country, underachieving can still mean good results, and even only occasionally meeting expectations can be a season for the ages.
I don't disagree with that. I have much more confidence in Wojo reeling in talented players than I do in him improving his coaching. If you can't make a team better than the sum of its parts, then upgrade the parts.
My only concern is that the one season where he had a roster of top talent he failed to manage egos and the final month was a disaster. Hopefully he's learned from that.
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I don't disagree with that. I have much more confidence in Wojo reeling in talented players than I do in him improving his coaching. If you can't make a team better than the sum of its parts, then upgrade the parts.
My only concern is that the one season where he had a roster of top talent he failed to manage egos and the final month was a disaster. Hopefully he's learned from that.
I think he'll learn and also we won't be seeing brothers again
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Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?
To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.
This. I always get a laugh on here after a win or loss and posters are critical and bloviate in numerous posts (myself included). Then, turn on Wojo's pressers and he says the same things. Crean and Buzz used to deflect all the time with coach speak or oh goshisms which drove me crazy over time. Wojo is pretty darn honest and straightforward, which gives me confidence actually, despite being so vanilla.
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I don't disagree with that. I have much more confidence in Wojo reeling in talented players than I do in him improving his coaching. If you can't make a team better than the sum of its parts, then upgrade the parts.
My only concern is that the one season where he had a roster of top talent he failed to manage egos and the final month was a disaster. Hopefully he's learned from that.
And sometimes no matter who you are, those egos cannot be managed. You do accept this, or is it always on the coach? He can learn all day long, but some people simply don't want to be part of certain organizations, marriages, teams, etc and they leave....regardless of what is done to try and save it. In other words, sometimes nothing can be done. I realize the need for a scapegoat by some, but there are situations where it doesn't matter who is trying to hold things together.
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Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?
To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.
Yes. I've seen some fan cohorts that worship the ground of their coach and he/she can do NOTHING wrong. I find that equally wrong, but yes some fan bases react much differently.
Look, I worked in MU's athletic department for 5 years, at Indiana's for a year. I've been around college athletics since then for the last 20 years in various capacities. I am fortunate to have dealt with AD's, Commissioners of conferences, coaches, etc over the years. We get to talk. And yes, some of these guys will tell you how ridiculously unhinged some fan bases are and are more than happy to consider something else. Some coaches, of course, play the conservative card and don't open up at all. In the end, they are human and looking for affirmation like most humans do...we can deny this or say "it's part of the job" all you wish. John Calipari told me once that fans think head coaches are bullet proof...they're not...they're emotional like any other human being. Mike Deane, Tom Crean and I used to talk about the fans all the time. Mostly from the perspective of what can we do to get them together, what are the things that unify everyone, but they spoke of the frustration, too, in having to deal with it. AT a place like MU, it is easier to just get out and take those lumps elsewhere.
Quite frankly, it was the main reason I got out of college athletics and went a different direction in sports. So many factions, so many politics and a lot of people with emotional and financial leverage to make life not worth it as an Athletics Administrator or coach. Boosters like to throw their weight around, tell you how what they did in their business should be done in an Athletic Department as if one simply cuts and pastes.
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And sometimes no matter who you are, those egos cannot be managed. You do accept this, or is it always on the coach? He can learn all day long, but some people simply don't want to be part of certain organizations, marriages, teams, etc and they leave....regardless of what is done to try and save it. In other words, sometimes nothing can be done. I realize the need for a scapegoat by some, but there are situations where it doesn't matter who is trying to hold things together.
I feel comfortable in my stance. Wojo screwed up.
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I feel comfortable in my stance. Wojo screwed up.
I feel comfortable in mine. Joey never wanted to be at MU in the first place and he essentially admitted that in his interview two months ago at MSU. MU was not the school he was looking for, not the environment, etc....never a good fit. It's a shame we lost Sam out of it, but Joey is where he wanted to be all along and his own words and body language seal that for me.
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I feel comfortable in mine. Joey never wanted to be at MU in the first place and he essentially admitted that in his interview two months ago at MSU. MU was not the school he was looking for, not the environment, etc....never a good fit. It's a shame we lost Sam out of it, but Joey is where he wanted to be all along and his own words and body language seal that for me.
Sam leaving is on Wojo poorly managing the situation.
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False. I even said he should be coach of the year endlessly. I can provide you with 100's of examples, but of course you would ignore them as usual. Six years...totally false. Did I bash him a lot...yup. For some things that were not basketball related....absolutely.
Guess what I NEVER did. Search it until your hearts content. NOT ONE TIME did I say he should be fired. NOT ONE DAMN TIME.
Fragile
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Sam leaving is choosing blood over team.
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Sam leaving is choosing blood over team.
Yup.
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I don't disagree with that. I have much more confidence in Wojo reeling in talented players than I do in him improving his coaching. If you can't make a team better than the sum of its parts, then upgrade the parts.
My only concern is that the one season where he had a roster of top talent he failed to manage egos and the final month was a disaster. Hopefully he's learned from that.
I know you don't want to here it but I'll say it anyway..... The whole ego management factor has been blown waaaaay out of proportion. Sams hip was shot, Markus was beat the eff up, Joey ran out of gas, and Gregs thumb injury meant we didn't have a serviceable second ball handler. Yes, Wojo whiffed on Cartoony. Those factors had a far greater impact on the late season meltdown than Wojos ignorance of child psychology......
IMHO of course.
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Fragile
Soft as vanilla ice cream
(https://media.giphy.com/media/11uLNcfvw0knkI/giphy.gif)
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Sam leaving is on Wojo poorly managing the situation.
Do you come from a family.....family blood and bond often trumps all....I get it feeds into your narrative and agenda conclusion but doesn't make it so.
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Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?
To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.
+1 The MU fan base is no tougher than any fan base that gives a sh!t. So, tougher than Grambling St., sure, and tougher than DePaul. Big deal.
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If he can continue to reel in recruits like Ellenson, Howard, Hauser, Torrence, & Garcia, he may not have to. If you can develop a roster that is among the most talented in the country, underachieving can still mean good results, and even only occasionally meeting expectations can be a season for the ages.
This is 1000% spot on Brew..this has always been my theory/philosophy. Get enough REALLY good players to the point where you can just essentially roll the ball out and go play and it can hide some of your coaching warts, this is the way it should go. I'm 1000% fine with Wojo as Coach if he can keep his recruiting momentum going(and even raise it more) to the point where he doesn't even really need to Coach that much. Just take his five and beat your 5 anytime, anywhere. This is why he has gotten a bit of a reprieve from me, landing Garcia was absolutely HUGE as far as how I view him and how long my leash is. That's the kind of talent I expected him to reel in fairly regularly. Now if he lands Mane as well...even more leash from me.
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Do you come from a family.....family blood and bond often trumps all....I get it feeds into your narrative and agenda conclusion but doesn't make it so.
So what exactly did the letter say? "I wish we had a football team?"
The whole thing was a case of mismanaged egos due to there being one ball and thirteen guys. It's a problem every coach has to manage, and Wojo didn't.
And your narrative and agenda is to excuse every criticism of Wojo. If it's not Buzz and the administration, it's bad matchups and crapshoots. Let's add 'it was an impossible situation Wojo had no responsibility for creating' to the ProJo list then.
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The whole thing was a case of mismanaged egos due to there being one ball and thirteen guys. It's a problem every coach has to manage, and Wojo didn't.
Crazy thought, but just stick with me for a moment ... but what if there were no one to blame for the Hausers' decision transfer, and it simply came down to conflicting agendas that couldn't be resolved?
I know, I know ... it's not nearly as fun as pointing fingers, casting villains and picking sides, but maybe?
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Crazy thought, but just stick with me for a moment ... but what if there were no one to blame for the Hausers' decision transfer, and it simply came down to conflicting agendas that couldn't be resolved?
I know, I know ... it's not nearly as fun as pointing fingers, casting villains and picking sides, but maybe?
Crazy thought: the guy in charge ultimately bears responsibility.
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Crazy thought: the guy in charge ultimately bears responsibility.
Not really. Adults have agency.
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Not really. Adults have agency.
I doubt that flew on his job performance review.
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I doubt that flew on his job performance review.
I'm sure you would know.
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I'm sure you would know.
It's a crazy thought for sure.
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So what exactly did the letter say? "I wish we had a football team?"
The whole thing was a case of mismanaged egos due to there being one ball and thirteen guys. It's a problem every coach has to manage, and Wojo didn't.
And your narrative and agenda is to excuse every criticism of Wojo. If it's not Buzz and the administration, it's bad matchups and crapshoots. Let's add 'it was an impossible situation Wojo had no responsibility for creating' to the ProJo list then.
I'm not talking about a letter....feel free to watch him in his own words describe what he wants, his comfort level, etc.
I don't excuse every criticism of Wojo. From the very first notion that we hired him (go back and read it) my biggest worry was he had great athletes at Duke, would he be able to coach up kids that don't come in already great. I've said here on a number of occasions that he sticks too long, at times, with a philosophy that isn't working in a game...but that is purely my opinion in not spending countless hours with a team, knowing what they are capable of.
I have also said there is plenty of blame to go around with the Hausers...they are gone. From what I have heard, from my contacts still there....really not a damn thing he or MU could do about it. Sometimes we can wish it so, doesn't make it so. Wojo, as the head coach, is going to have a role in developing opinions. That's a fact of life. Markus, coming back, had a role. The Hausers with their own ambitions, had a role. They were not going to be aligned.
THERE WAS NO SITUATION IN THE END THAT THE ENTIRE TEAM STAYS TOGETHER. PERIOD. NONE.
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I'm not talking about a letter....feel free to watch him in his own words describe what he wants, his comfort level, etc.
I don't excuse every criticism of Wojo. From the very first notion that we hired him (go back and read it) my biggest worry was he had great athletes at Duke, would he be able to coach up kids that don't come in already great. I've said here on a number of occasions that he sticks too long, at times, with a philosophy that isn't working in a game...but that is purely my opinion in not spending countless hours with a team, knowing what they are capable of.
I have also said there is plenty of blame to go around with the Hausers...they are gone. From what I have heard, from my contacts still there....really not a damn thing he or MU could do about it. Sometimes we can wish it so, doesn't make it so. Wojo, as the head coach, is going to have a role in developing opinions. That's a fact of life. Markus, coming back, had a role. The Hausers with their own ambitions, had a role. They were not going to be aligned.
THERE WAS NO SITUATION IN THE END THAT THE ENTIRE TEAM STAYS TOGETHER. PERIOD. NONE.
I'm talking about the letter though. Do you think it said "I'd be more comfortable at a big state school," or that it took issue with Wojo's coaching instead?
I agree with you that the entire team wasn't staying together. That's on Wojo.
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If there was a letter - and I tend to think not - then MU is better off without its authors.
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I'm talking about the letter though. Do you think it said "I'd be more comfortable at a big state school," or that it took issue with Wojo's coaching instead?
I agree with you that the entire team wasn't staying together. That's on Wojo.
I have no idea about the letter, if it existed, if it is a figment of someone's imagination and have stayed away in large part from even the notion of it.
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In your opinion. I put it on the people who didn't want to play with Markus or for Wojo anymore.
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In your opinion. I put it on the people who didn't want to play with Markus or for Wojo anymore.
When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it. Not exactly a new concept.
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The coach gets tagged with it, but that doesn't mean there was anything he could have done about it. Kobe and Shaq? Randy Moss? Terrell Owens? Teams where teammates sleep with each other's wives? LeBron and everyone? https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/04/13/the-lebron-curse-all-coaches-that-were-fired-while-coaching-lebron-james/
Sometimes, there are personality conflicts Mother Teresa couldn't resolve. I still have a strong memory of Joey throwing up his arms in one of his first collegiate games because the second team all american did not pass him the ball in the corner, instead hitting a pull up 3.
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When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it. Not exactly a new concept.
This is not always the case. There have been locker rooms that fell apart, the players cut or shipped off somewhere else and things improved dramatically. Not exactly a new concept.
Terrell Owens
Dez Bryant
PacMan Jones
DeMarcus Cousins
Dwight Howard first go with the Lakers
Vin Baker
Isaiah Rider
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Manny Ramirez
Carlos Zambrano
Milton Bradley
Jose Guillen (I can attest to this one)
Reggie Jackson
And on and on
Stephon Marbury
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This is not always the case. There have been locker rooms that fell apart, the players cut or shipped off somewhere else and things improved dramatically. Not exactly a new concept.
Terrell Owens
Dez Bryant
PacMan Jones
DeMarcus Cousins
Dwight Howard first go with the Lakers
Vin Baker
Isaiah Rider
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Manny Ramirez
Carlos Zambrano
Milton Bradley
Jose Guillen (I can attest to this one)
Reggie Jackson
And on and on
Stephon Marbury
And then there's Joey Hauser, who threw his hands up in the air when the ball wasn't passed to him. Surprised Izzo is taking such a risk.
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When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it. Not exactly a new concept.
Which came first the chuckin or the ego?
Joey knew who and what Markus was before he came to Marquette and Sam had coexisted in harmony with him for two years before Joey showed up. So what was the real deal?
Did Joey think he was going to come in and dictate the offense? No offense, (pun intended), but he didn't possess the handle, the foot speed or the athleticism to create high percentage opportunities for himself and still he was allocated a generous amount of playing time and took a decent amount of shots for a freshman.
So what was his grievance and what should Wojo have done to appease him? Did he want to take as many shots as Markus? Did he want to evenly divide up the shots between himself, Sam, and Markus? What about Sacar who was also a junior? I'm not certain but I would hazard a guess that Joey took about as many shots as Sacar did every game. What about playing time? I bet Joey also got about as much playing time as Sacar did. I read in another thread that Joey started like 95% of the games as a freshman. Not too bad. So again, what exactly were Joeys grievances and what more could Wojo have done to appease him? If he had done any more I would be calling for him to be fired for being a stooge.
It might be hard for some to accept, but Joey left for his own selfish reasons. Sam left for his own self serving reasons. I'm not going to totally trash either one because they left, and I'm not going to sit quietly while others accuse Wojo of mishandling them.
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I know you don't want to here it but I'll say it anyway..... The whole ego management factor has been blown waaaaay out of proportion. Sams hip was shot, Markus was beat the eff up, Joey ran out of gas, and Gregs thumb injury meant we didn't have a serviceable second ball handler. Yes, Wojo whiffed on Cartoony. Those factors had a far greater impact on the late season meltdown than Wojos ignorance of child psychology......
IMHO of course.
Somehow, people religiously find excuses to defend Wojo rather than accept the obvious.
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And then there's Joey Hauser, who threw his hands up in the air when the ball wasn't passed to him. Surprised Izzo is taking such a risk.
Change of scenery can do a lot for some people, marriages, jobs ,etc. again...human nature.
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The coach gets tagged with it, but that doesn't mean there was anything he could have done about it. Kobe and Shaq? Randy Moss? Terrell Owens? Teams where teammates sleep with each other's wives?
Kobe and Shaq won multiple NBA titles together.
Is Sam Randy Moss and Joey Terrell Owens or the other way around? OMG.
The only girlfriend stealing dissension I ever heard about at MU was between Doc Rivers and Marc Marotta.
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Somehow, people religiously find excuses to defend Wojo rather than accept the obvious.
My dog ate my playbook is an excuse.
Sams hip that required surgery, Gregs thumb that was injured so bad it benched him for the season, seeing Markus get injured on TV, Joey hitting the freshman wall, and no quality back up point guard to give Markus some rest. Those are valid reasons for a late season fade. I think it's called attrition.
Wojo didn't manage the players egos?
I don't even know what that is, but I do know it's weak. If you want to say he mismanaged players minutes and should have figured out a way to get Sam, Markus, and Joey more rest I would agree. Of course if he had Joey might have thrown a fit, what with his sensitive ego and all. They probably would have lost a few more games as well, and we all know losses are totally unacceptable.
Notice I'm not saying Wojo deserves NO blame. He deserves blame for the things he could directly control that lead to the collapse. Injuries and players fragile egos don't fall into that category.
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Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?
To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.
1,000% Agree. This is one hill I would die on. MUScoop and MU fans in general are very favorable to our coach compared to other major programs in the P6. If anyone thinks MU fans on this board or elsewhere would make our coach look to another job because we are too harsh, they are idiots. Go look at other fan boards and talk to other fans before judging MU fans. As a general rule, we are very good and supportive fans.
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Which came first the chuckin or the ego?
Joey knew who and what Markus was before he came to Marquette and Sam had coexisted in harmony with him for two years before Joey showed up. So what was the real deal?
Did Joey think he was going to come in and dictate the offense? No offense, (pun intended), but he didn't possess the handle, the foot speed or the athleticism to create high percentage opportunities for himself and still he was allocated a generous amount of playing time and took a decent amount of shots for a freshman.
So what was his grievance and what should Wojo have done to appease him? Did he want to take as many shots as Markus? Did he want to evenly divide up the shots between himself, Sam, and Markus? What about Sacar who was also a junior? I'm not certain but I would hazard a guess that Joey took about as many shots as Sacar did every game. What about playing time? I bet Joey also got about as much playing time as Sacar did. I read in another thread that Joey started like 95% of the games as a freshman. Not too bad. So again, what exactly were Joeys grievances and what more could Wojo have done to appease him? If he had done any more I would be calling for him to be fired for being a stooge.
It might be hard for some to accept, but Joey left for his own selfish reasons. Sam left for his own self serving reasons. I'm not going to totally trash either one because they left, and I'm not going to sit quietly while others accuse Wojo of mishandling them.
Well, in all fairness, they both went to greener pastures with coaches that can get people into the NBA and abroad.
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nm
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Well, in all fairness, they both went to greener pastures with coaches that can get people into the NBA and abroad.
Forwards at the next level are one of two things, Big strong rebounders/shot blockers who are now also expected to shoot the three ball or long athletic stretch defenders with a good handle who also are expected to shoot the three ball. Neither Sam nor Joey fit those descriptions. Dekker and Henry both had more NBA ready skill sets and both struggled.
Will Sam eclipse his accomplishments at Marquette in one year at Virginia?
No, even if they win a game in the tournament.
Will Joey eclipse his accomplishments of one year at Marquette in three years at Michigan State? One would hope so.
Both players will have a full year in their teams program to acclimate and focus on strength and conditioning.
Virginia should get a rejuvenated Sam, not the hobbled Sam Marquette had at the end of last season
Michigan State should get a more physically and emotionally mature Joey, not the physically and emotionally fragile Joey Marquette had at the end of last season.
If Izzo and Bennett can't get solid numbers from what are basically a totally fresh four star Jr. and a totally fresh and healthy seasoned fifth year Sr. then they should both hang it up.
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"Long-time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 just read the board passively for a good long time and now all of a sudden has manic diarrhea of the keyboard repeating Wojo-defending talking points ad nauseam. Interesting!
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"Long-time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 just read the board passively for a good long time and now all of a sudden has manic diarrhea of the keyboard repeating Wojo-defending talking points ad nauseam. Interesting!
Yeah I'm trying to figure out who he is as well. I'm pretty sure it's someone we know and love, I just don't know who.
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I guess in a round about way that was the point I was trying to make.
I personally don't think there are ANY extreme ProJos who do nothing but sing his praises.
I also don't believe there are MANY extreme NoJos who do nothing but trash him. But it seems they do exist, and they become extremely active after a tough loss, trashing not only Wojo but often individual players by name.
I regret not making this distinction more apparent in my original post but that was the point I was trying to make.
If I was going to label myself, I too would put myself in the so-so jo camp.
There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.
Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.
The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.
Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.
Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.
You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.
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Lenny
Well stated. You have me the right group.
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I think we've seeing a bit of cooling in both directions. Wojo has done enough to make some of the people who were more nojo (myself included) concede that there are some positives - we're not a complete dumpster fire.
But, he also hasn't lived up to the lofty expectations of people who were more projo (I'm thinking tower here - who is significantly more reserved about Wojo this year than he has been). I think these people expected more progression, but in year 6 we're basically still spinning wheels as a team that's a bad L or two away from the bubble.
In other words, most have trended toward the middle - which is exactly who Wojo is - "Mr. C+/B-"
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There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.
Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.
The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.
Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.
Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.
You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.
This is just begging for a thread/poll of its own to see how people self-identify.
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This is just begging for a thread/poll of its own to see how people self-identify.
Just be sure to repeat it after every half played.
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I think these people expected more progression, but in year 6 we're basically still spinning wheels as a team that's a bad L or two away from the bubble.
That's funny, because weren't we dubbed Team Bubble Watch almost every year under Buzz?
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That's funny, because weren't we dubbed Team Bubble Watch almost every year under Buzz?
50% of the years iirc
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Just be sure to repeat it after every half played.
To quote a noted philosopher, "I don't care who ya are...that's funny right there."
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There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.
Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.
The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.
Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.
Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.
You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.
Enjoyed this, Lenny, and can't argue with what you say. I might shift a few folks one up or down the category line, but that would be nitpicking.
I will say that some of the extreme nojos do occasionally go WAY out there: "I'll take DePaul's program right now" ... "Wojo isn't even as good as Deane" ... "Wojo de-motivates his players," etc. And of course one of the "basic nojos" you list does tend to celebrate every time Wojo misses on a recruit.
I guess one could argue that projos are always throwing out the career paths of Wright, K, etc ... but then again I don't ever hear them saying Wojo is BETTER than Wright and K or that Wojo will one day become Wright and K.
Anyhoo, it's all a part of what makes Scoop "special."
We Are Marquette!
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But, he also hasn't lived up to the lofty expectations of people who were more projo (I'm thinking tower here - who is significantly more reserved about Wojo this year than he has been).
I am exactly where I have been every year on Wojo. Right now, MU is within one game of where I thought they would be at this point. If anything, I am slightly more optimistic after seeing the class Wojo was able to land post-Hauser, as well as how much potential I see in Symir.
I have never gone full Anikin to Darth Wojo-us. I have always acknowledged whatever shortcomings I perceive. I watch the trend; his in game coaching, recruiting, clean program, etc. I look at who might replace him. On balance, I like MU's chances at success more maintaining the status quo versus starting from scratch again.
It helps that I don't lose my crap over losses to good teams either neutral court or on the road. And that I genuinely like the make up of this team. Easy to root for.
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I am exactly where I have been every year on Wojo. Right now, MU is within one game of where I thought they would be at this point. If anything, I am slightly more optimistic after seeing the class Wojo was able to land post-Hauser, as well as how much potential I see in Symir.
I have never gone full Anikin to Darth Wojo-us. I have always acknowledged whatever shortcomings I perceive. I watch the trend; his in game coaching, recruiting, clean program, etc. I look at who might replace him. On balance, I like MU's chances at success more maintaining the status quo versus starting from scratch again.
It helps that I don't lose my crap over losses to good teams either neutral court or on the road. And that I genuinely like the make up of this team. Easy to root for.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScaredSomberIcelandicsheepdog-size_restricted.gif)
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I’m solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He’s a good guy who isn’t a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.
Oh, nooooo! Not this year, not with that recruiting class coming in, and not with how recruiting looks for next year....
I can still remember a very nice class in Buzz's last year evaporating with just Sandy Cohn getting salvaged. And then Wojo struggling with a very short rotation his first year. Let's not do that again. Please
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"Long-time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 just read the board passively for a good long time and now all of a sudden has manic diarrhea of the keyboard repeating Wojo-defending talking points ad nauseam. Interesting!
This is the second time you posted this I believe. You or anyone else on the board have my permission to have my user status verified. This is the FIRST time I have ever posted on scoop. I also responded to your other post and explained why I am posting so much. I find it cathartic to vent after being silent for so long. I'm sure it will drop off very soon. I might even leave the board if people keep making false statements about me personally. I am always up for a reasonable debate but when one participants arguments seem purposefully designed to antagonize and do not add facts to support their position, I begin to see them as trolls.
Kinda like what you did.
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This is the second time you posted this I believe. You or anyone else on the board have my permission to have my user status verified. This is the FIRST time I have ever posted on scoop. I also responded to your other post and explained why I am posting so much. I find it cathartic to vent after being silent for so long. I'm sure it will drop off very soon. I might even leave the board if people keep making false statements about me personally. I am always up for a reasonable debate but when one participants arguments seem purposefully designed to antagonize and do not add facts to support their position, I begin to see them as trolls.
Kinda like what you did.
LOL
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There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.
Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.
The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.
Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.
Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.
You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.
I appreciate your argument but I have to disagree.
I nor any poster I have read has ever exaggerated Wojos accomplishments and called for him to be proclaimed GCOAT. That would be an extreme ProJo
I have read posters acknowledging the situation he inherited, citing his decent recruiting, pointing to his positive winning trend, seeing some improvement in his coaching, specifically on the defensive end and player usage , and recognizing the clean program he is running. They also expressed their fear of losing a developing coach and possibly his star recruits( and maybe key transfers like Symir)and having to start from scratch again.
At the same time these same posters have expressed disappointment in Wojos lack of tournament success and his inability to have the players focused and prepared consistently. I am not informed enough to intelligently opine on his in game adjustments but I and others have also questioned his reluctance/stubbornness to employ a zone defense in certain situations. I can also honestly say that if the facts change and winning and recruiting start trending negative I'll have no problem supporting his removal. I consider myself and most others reasonable, rational Jos
Then there are those who post comments promoting the argument that Wojo has been a train wreck and suggest that the situation he inherited was almost ideal. They postulate that he can't coach at all, his recruiting is average, he can't develop players, he can't win big games, he's not a good representative for the program, and if he stays there's no chance of Marquette ever being competitive in the tournament. Most of their statements are demonstrably false.
These are extreme NoJos
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I appreciate your argument but I have to disagree.
I nor any poster I have read has ever exaggerated Wojos accomplishments and called for him to be proclaimed GCOAT. That would be an extreme ProJo
I have read posters acknowledging the situation he inherited, citing his decent recruiting, pointing to his positive winning trend, seeing some improvement in his coaching, specifically on the defensive end and player usage , and recognizing the clean program he is running. They also expressed their fear of losing a developing coach and possibly his star recruits( and maybe key transfers like Symir)and having to start from scratch again.
At the same time these same posters have expressed disappointment in Wojos lack of tournament success and his inability to have the players focused and prepared consistently. I am not informed enough to intelligently opine on his in game adjustments but I and others have also questioned his reluctance/stubbornness to employ a zone defense in certain situations. I can also honestly say that if the facts change and winning and recruiting start trending negative I'll have no problem supporting his removal. I consider myself and most others reasonable, rational Jos
Then there are those who post comments promoting the argument that Wojo has been a train wreck and suggest that the situation he inherited was almost ideal. They postulate that he can't coach at all, his recruiting is average, he can't develop players, he can't win big games, he's not a good representative for the program, and if he stays there's no chance of Marquette ever being competitive in the tournament. Most of their statements are demonstrably false.
These are extreme NoJos
So much off the wall hyperbole and so many outright falsehoods in your post it they don’t deserve a sentence by sentence enumeration. Basically total BS.
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So much off the wall hyperbole and so many outright falsehoods in your post it they don’t deserve a sentence by sentence enumeration. Basically total BS.
You have read some of the Wojo debate comments littered throughout the threads, right?!?! It wasn't my words I was citing to define extreme NoJos, it was theirs. If you have an issue with falsehoods and hyperbole direct your complaints to them.
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I am exactly where I have been every year on Wojo. Right now, MU is within one game of where I thought they would be at this point. If anything, I am slightly more optimistic after seeing the class Wojo was able to land post-Hauser, as well as how much potential I see in Symir.
I have never gone full Anikin to Darth Wojo-us. I have always acknowledged whatever shortcomings I perceive. I watch the trend; his in game coaching, recruiting, clean program, etc. I look at who might replace him. On balance, I like MU's chances at success more maintaining the status quo versus starting from scratch again.
It helps that I don't lose my crap over losses to good teams either neutral court or on the road. And that I genuinely like the make up of this team. Easy to root for.
Yes, I know you always have low expectations in any given season but I think in the early years you were pretty optimistic about where we'd be in year 5+. I'm not going to dig through old posts so I could be misremembering. But to your credit I think you've made a few comments this year that Wojo might not be the one. Again, that strikes me as a departure from the faith I remember you having a few years ago.
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LOL
People often laugh when they can't formulate an intelligent response.
Then again, someone willing to make an uninformed, unsubstantiated, and ultimately false statement directed at another poster can't be that smart to begin with.
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People often laugh when they can't formulate an intelligent response.
Then again, someone willing to make an uninformed, unsubstantiated, and ultimately false statement directed at another poster can't be that smart to begin with.
LOL
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LOL
Yeah, I thought so.
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All youse projoe's still feelin' it, hey?
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All youse projoe's still feelin' it, hey?
Yes.
Why didn't you ask this after Nova?
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Yes.
Why didn't you ask this after Nova?
If you think Wojo isn’t losing supporters with games like tonight, you’d be wrong.
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If you think Wojo isn’t losing supporters with games like tonight, you’d be wrong.
Is that what I said or implied?
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Is that what I said or implied?
I think by backhandedly insulting the question you did imply that, yes.
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I think by backhandedly insulting the question you did imply that, yes.
I meant to insult the question because "piling on the loss to prove your point" crowd is tiresome. A bunch of clowns.
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Yes.
Why didn't you ask this after Nova?
Nova was a great win but didn’t exactly counter anything. The team came out on fire, but went almost 8 min in the second half without scoring while Wojo stood with his hand in his pockets using no TOs and letting them twist in the wind. The deficit was too large and the defense was fairly good, so they rode it out. But it was the same issue tonight, a long stretch with no semblance of a time out or chance to regroup from the coach. We didn’t win at Nova because he out coached Jay Wright
In 6 halves (no OT) in the last 3 games, the team has been lost or out of sorts offensively for 5 of them. That’s beyond concerning
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If you think Wojo isn’t losing supporters with games like tonight, you’d be wrong.
probably true, which is sad. The more fans that are happy with mediocrity the lesss relevant we become. Just look at depaul
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Nova was a great win but didn’t exactly counter anything. The team came out on fire, but went almost 8 min in the second half without scoring while Wojo stood with his hand in his pockets using no TOs and letting them twist in the wind. The deficit was too large and the defense was fairly good, so they rode it out. But it was the same issue tonight, a long stretch with no semblance of a time out or chance to regroup from the coach. We didn’t win at Nova because he out coached Jay Wright
In 6 halves (no OT) in the last 3 games, the team has been lost or out of sorts offensively for 5 of them. That’s beyond concerning
I get that. I watched.
See above.
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jesmu
Few pile on after a loss. More and more comment after a loss, but very little piling on. Wojo has 5+ years and has felt little heat.
Would add, simple way to avoid criticism, win the home games against bottom teams in the BE.
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Whoa-Joe - shouldn't you be game planning and not posting here!?!
Lol touche. I'm a pro-jo too and actually agree with the original post here, but Rocky's response is funny. Can't remember if it was Rocky or someone else way back who asked me if I'd finished picking up Tom Crean's laundry yet.
Speaking of which - since it seemed most were anti-crean - nice win for him at Memphis and tonight is beating Kentucky so far. Not bad!
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jesmu
Few pile on after a loss. More and more comment after a loss, but very little piling on. Wojo has 5+ years and has felt little heat.
Would add, simple way to avoid criticism, win the home games against bottom teams in the BE.
I disagree.
Look at threads created after a loss vs a win.
And look at who is posting when.
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My thoughts on Woj haven't changed one iota in 5 years whether I post after every win or loss. Simply put, he's out of his league both in game and personnel management. Furthermore, highly doubtful he improves enough, in year 6 or year 60, to compete on this level.
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JWags
It is one man offense and hoping someone else contributes. The GOAT has to score, or believes he needs to score, majority of the points. Cannot win on consistent basis having one guy score 50% of your points.
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My thoughts on Woj haven't changed one iota in 5 years whether I post after every win or loss. Simply put, he's out of his league both in game and personnel management. Furthermore, highly doubtful he improves enough, in year 6 or year 60, to compete on this level.
I'm aware.
And kudos to your for sticking to your guns.
That's doesn't mean you and others aren't piling on after losses intentionally.
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jesmu
Few pile on, some voice the same concern we have had for several years. As 4ever said, his feelings have not changed based off any win or loss and I am in same camp.
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Fairly enough, but as you can see, there is an increase in restlessness amongst those on the fence.
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jesmu
Few pile on, some voice the same concern we have had for several years. As 4ever said, his feelings have not changed based off any win or loss and I am in same camp.
But it isn't voiced after wins.
That's my point.
As an aside, it isn't necessarily you and 4ever. We get real clownshows like the Mike Deane boys who are absolutely piling on.
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Fairly enough, but as you can see, there is an increase in restlessness amongst those on the fence.
No problem with that.
Who said I'm not one of them?
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jesmu
Individual wins or losses mean nothing in the big picture. The program has made little progress, if any, under Wojo’s watch. I said a month ago that I was more interested in this year’s recruiting class over on court success this year. That was based off I expect us to struggle on court.
As for recruiting class, would be a very nice class if there were a slew of returning pieces. This class would be great if it was Year two of Wojo era, not going into year seven.
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jesmu
Few pile on, some voice the same concern we have had for several years. As 4ever said, his feelings have not changed based off any win or loss and I am in same camp.
For reference just see first post on towers post game thread.
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For reference just see first post on towers post game thread.
you rang?
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jesmu
Individual wins or losses mean nothing in the big picture. The program has made little progress, if any, under Wojo’s watch. I said a month ago that I was more interested in this year’s recruiting class over on court success this year. That was based off I expect us to struggle on court.
As for recruiting class, would be a very nice class if there were a slew of returning pieces. This class would be great if it was Year two of Wojo era, not going into year seven.
Okay.
Then why do people pile on after losses? It absolutely happens.
IMO, the program has absolutely made progress from wojos first 2 years. Other than maybe recruiting, not sure if it has after that.
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jesmu
Several guys jump on Wojo and probably same number that stroke him after a win. For me, I care about the big picture and that is a much improved program from current state.
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jesmu
Several guys jump on Wojo and probably same number that stroke him after a win. For me, I care about the big picture and that is a much improved program from current state.
Okay. We clearly won't agree on what this site looks like after a win vs loss.
We will agree on wanting to the program to be better. I keep hoping for one more step forward. Disappointed it hasn't happened yet
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I'm aware.
And kudos to your for sticking to your guns.
That's doesn't mean you and others aren't piling on after losses intentionally.
When would you expect Wojo's critics to bring up their criticisms? Surely not after big wins. The posters who don't like Wojo tend to have reasons that helped them form that opinion. Usually those reasons are on display in losses.
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jesmu
Several guys jump on Wojo and probably same number that stroke him after a win. For me, I care about the big picture and that is a much improved program from current state.
Not even close to accurate.
After a big win most if not all normal Jos are giving the lions share of the credit to individual players, and no one is praising Wojo and anointing him the next Al. Normal Jos even critique Wojo after a big win pointing to things he could improve upon.
After a big loss the extreme NoJos come out of the woodwork and give Wojo all of the blame and repeat their calls for his termination. They criticize everything Wojo does while never acknowledging the good things that happened in the game.
There is a difference.
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Maybe the easy answer is that those unhappy after a loss expect more wins, and so have little to say after a victory. I don't see why this is unexpected. To me the whole Wojo thing is expectations. It appears MU has decided a clean program with an above average team that pulls off a big win every one or two years but doesn't really make an impact if acceptable. Why would anyone be surprised that a lot of fans are not, and complain on a message board after a loss they don't want to accept?
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WhoaJoe
You sound more like Chico’s with every post. At the least, you have as much free time as Chico’s to respond to every post.
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Not even close to accurate.
After a big win most if not all normal Jos are giving the lions share of the credit to individual players, and no one is praising Wojo and anointing him the next Al. Normal Jos even critique Wojo after a big win pointing to things he could improve upon.
After a big loss the extreme NoJos come out of the woodwork and give Wojo all of the blame and repeat their calls for his termination. They criticize everything Wojo does while never acknowledging the good things that happened in the game.
There is a difference.
Who cares what this board looks like after a win or loss? It’s an anonymous internet message board. What’s said on here has no impact on the narrative of Marquette basketball.
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Who cares what this board looks like after a win or loss? It’s an anonymous internet message board. What’s said on here has no impact on the narrative of Marquette basketball.
You mean we're all wasting our lives responding to the 13 different usernames of Ners and Chicos?
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Not even close to accurate.
After a big win most if not all normal Jos are giving the lions share of the credit to individual players, and no one is praising Wojo and anointing him the next Al. Normal Jos even critique Wojo after a big win pointing to things he could improve upon.
After a big loss the extreme NoJos come out of the woodwork and give Wojo all of the blame and repeat their calls for his termination. They criticize everything Wojo does while never acknowledging the good things that happened in the game.
There is a difference.
I don't think I've seen anyone calling for him to be fired after last night, despite that being the easiest game in the conference schedule.
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My thoughts on Woj haven't changed one iota in 5 years whether I post after every win or loss. Simply put, he's out of his league both in game and personnel management. Furthermore, highly doubtful he improves enough, in year 6 or year 60, to compete on this level.
You do realize you just outed yourself right????
Quote: " My thoughts on Wojo haven't changed one iota in five years ". Think about what you just said.
So your thoughts didn't change one iota when he went from a 13-19 season in year one, to a 20-13 record in year two, to a NCAA appearance and third place finish in the BEast in year three, to another winning season and an NIT in year four, to his best season to date and a decent seed in the tournament in year five?????
Is it just possible that you have a predetermined bias against Wojo?
Don't bother answering that last question. You already have.
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You do realize you just outed yourself right????
Quote: " My thoughts on Wojo haven't changed one iota in five years ". Think about what you just said.
So your thoughts didn't change one iota when he went from a 13-19 season in year one, to a 20-13 record in year two, to a NCAA appearance and third place finish in the BEast in year three, to another winning season and an NIT in year four, to his best season to date and a decent seed in the tournament in year five?????
Is it just possible that you have a predetermined bias against Wojo?
Don't bother answering that last question. You already have.
Ahh...no. That’s not what that implies at all.
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You do realize you just outed yourself right????
Quote: " My thoughts on Wojo haven't changed one iota in five years ". Think about what you just said.
So your thoughts didn't change one iota when he went from a 13-19 season in year one, to a 20-13 record in year two, to a NCAA appearance and third place finish in the BEast in year three, to another winning season and an NIT in year four, to his best season to date and a decent seed in the tournament in year five?????
Is it just possible that you have a predetermined bias against Wojo?
Don't bother answering that last question. You already have.
Dear lord man, get a GD life. Honestly. This incessant crap is major board pollution
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WhoaJoe
You sound more like Chico’s with every post. At the least, you have as much free time as Chico’s to respond to every post.
Not me Goose....I even sent the guy a PM a few days ago asking who he is, no response yet. I’m guessing someone yanking all your chains.
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Ahh...no. That’s not what that implies at all.
He was against Wojo from the beginning, do the math.
His thoughts never changed one iota. despite improved results year over year.
Self admitted inflexibility of thought on Wojo despite observable positive changes in level of success.
Conclusion, he didn't like Wojo from the start and nothing is going to change his mind.
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Not me Goose....I even sent the guy a PM a few days ago asking who he is, no response yet. I’m guessing someone yanking all your chains.
How do I access your PM?
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He was against Wojo from the beginning, do the math.
His thoughts never changed one iota. despite improved results year over year.
Self admitted inflexibility of thought on Wojo despite observable positive changes in level of success.
Conclusion, he didn't like Wojo from the start and nothing is going to change his mind.
More disappointing than yesterday’s loss for you was the fact that no one on here freaked out about it and called for Wojo to be fired. Sure, some people criticized his coaching decisions and his boneheaded press conference, but that’s going to happen when you lose at home to a team you absolutely needed to beat. In fact, things were so tame that you had to make up some awful fiction about how “if we’d squeaked by against Providence people would still be complaining and calling for Wojo to be fired.” Just the facts, ma’am. No awful fiction like that, please.
And now you’re calling out a poster who you say has a bias against Wojo. This poster has consistently said that Wojo is in over his head and won’t take Marquette to the next level. Well, Joe, he kind of has a point. I mean, Wojo hasn’t really taken us to the next level, has he?
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My thoughts on Woj haven't changed one iota in 5 years whether I post after every win or loss. Simply put, he's out of his league both in game and personnel management. Furthermore, highly doubtful he improves enough, in year 6 or year 60, to compete on this level.
I agree with this analysis
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I agree with this analysis
I further concur. I'm quite baffled as to why he was offered an extension.
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Not me Goose....I even sent the guy a PM a few days ago asking who he is, no response yet. I’m guessing someone yanking all your chains.
Yeah you got me. I already explained why I started posting but people's reading comprehension must be lacking.
I admit I did start a few magnet threads with purposefully worded titles to draw the Wojo and other fights away from the recruiting thread, but my intentions were noble. For proof go visit the recruiting thread. It is much cleaner now. I also hedged my strategy by frequenting other threads and stirring a little. I have also tried to maintain a fairly neutral position on Wojo. Only a person with an extreme bias would interpret it as sycophantic. Oddly enough, being neutral is enough to draw the Wojo haters.
By the way......There's a good article about Karim Mane in the recruiting thread. People should read it. Signing off now.
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How do I access your PM?
Looks like you found it...thanks for the response. All good. Welcome aboard Scoop.
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More disappointing than yesterday’s loss for you was the fact that no one on here freaked out about it and called for Wojo to be fired. Sure, some people criticized his coaching decisions and his boneheaded press conference, but that’s going to happen when you lose at home to a team you absolutely needed to beat. In fact, things were so tame that you had to make up some awful fiction about how “if we’d squeaked by against Providence people would still be complaining and calling for Wojo to be fired.” Just the facts, ma’am. No awful fiction like that, please.
And now you’re calling out a poster who you say has a bias against Wojo. This poster has consistently said that Wojo is in over his head and won’t take Marquette to the next level. Well, Joe, he kind of has a point. I mean, Wojo hasn’t really taken us to the next level, has he?
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59669.msg1190561#msg1190561
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https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59669.msg1190561#msg1190561
So one hyperbolic poster called for the coach’s firing after a bad loss on an anonymous internet message board? Yawn.
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So one hyperbolic poster called for the coach’s firing after a bad loss on an anonymous internet message board? Yawn.
Actually wasn’t even that—just said you deserve it if it happens. Because he has been vocal before it is taken as calling for his head.
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Dear lord man, get a GD life. Honestly. This incessant crap is major board pollution
Yeah this board was so on topic and we all got along before him.
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Actually wasn’t even that—just said you deserve it if it happens. Because he has been vocal before it is taken as calling for his head.
Yeah, I've seen the board much worse after losses. There are and were generalities and absolutes being thrown around suggesting Wojo can't coach AT ALL, he will NEVER improve, that the program hasn't improved AT AlL, he CAN'T win the big games, that besides Markus the team is full of MID-MAJOR talent, that Koby is NO good, that Theo is NO good , and of course the obligatory doom and gloom threads after a loss. But yeah, overall the board has been quite restrained. I'm so proud of us.
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Yeah, I've seen the board much worse after losses. There are and were generalities and absolutes being thrown around suggesting he can't coach AT ALL, he will NEVER improve, that the program hasn't improved AT AlL, he CAN'T win the big games, that besides Markus the team is full of MID-MAJOR talent, that Koby is NO good, that Theo is NO good , and of course the obligatory doom and gloom threads after a loss. But yeah, overall the board has been quite restrained. I'm so proud of us.
There are several times where I’ve seen Chico get angry at people for using absolutes. I think he even capitalizes the absolutes when he’s complaining about them. It’s funny that you would complain about the same thing in the same writing style.
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Actually wasn’t even that—just said you deserve it if it happens. Because he has been vocal before it is taken as calling for his head.
Yeah, some might interpret it that way.
Just like some might interpret the constant criticism, win or lose, as a call for him to be replaced.
People don't always come right out and say eff you. Theyre often passive aggressive, using more socially acceptable phrases that ultimately convey the same message.
People are entitled to their opinion that Wojo should be fired.
There's no reason for people to pretend that they don't want him gone.
They should make their case with FACTS that support their position.
Just understand that those who think he shouldn't be fired are entitled to their opinion as well and will challenge that position with FACTS of their own.
Based on the FACTS that Wojo has had a fairly consistent upward trend in wins and losses, and in post season appearances, and has recruited some exciting and talented players over his tenure, I support the position of Wojo remaining head coach for at least one more year.
Notice I'm not calling for a ten year extension or his enshrinement into the college coaching hall of fame.
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There are several times where I’ve seen Chico get angry at people for using absolutes. I think he even capitalizes the absolutes when he’s complaining about them. It’s funny that you would complain about the same thing in the same writing style.
LOL it's identical
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Yeah, some might interpret it that way.
Just like some might interpret the constant criticism, win or lose, as a call for him to be replaced.
People don't always come right out and say eff you. Theyre often passive aggressive, using more socially acceptable phrases that ultimately convey the same message.
They should make their case with FACTS that support their position.
The facts have been given. Largely, the Pro Wojers cite trendy Kenpom stats. Yet, when it comes to fundamentals that one can only see through the eye, they cower back into their holes. In other words, they don't know how to identify the proper weaknesses when evaluating a coach. A Pro Wojer doesn't understand how the talent on the court, the way they play together, the coaching calls, rhythm, spacing, reactions, etc all weave together to form a complete picture.
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There are several times where I’ve seen Chico get angry at people for using absolutes. I think he even capitalizes the absolutes when he’s complaining about them. It’s funny that you would complain about the same thing in the same writing style.
What's really funny,( actually ironic ), is that Cheeks was one of the people annoying me in the recruiting thread that triggered me to join the board, and now I'm being accused of being him.
To be sure MDDG and his or her incessantly, and excessively negative comments and threads, as well as his or her minions parroting his or her talking points, was a prime motivating factor also.
So actually, you have both of them to thank for my invaluable insight and analysis.
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What's really funny,( actually ironic ), is that Cheeks was one of the people annoying me in the recruiting thread that triggered me to join the board, and now I'm being accused of being him.
To be sure MDDG and his or her incessantly, and excessively negative comments and threads, as well as his or her minions parroting his or her talking points, was a prime motivating factor also.
So actually, you have both of them to thank for my invaluable insight and analysis.
After joining the Pro Woj club, did you get your customary Kenpom Tramp Stamp?
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The facts have been given. Largely, the Pro Wojers cite trendy Kenpom stats. Yet, when it comes to fundamentals that one can only see through the eye, they cower back into their holes. In other words, they don't know how to identify the proper weaknesses when evaluating a coach. A Pro Wojer doesn't understand how the talent on the court, the way they play together, the coaching calls, rhythm, spacing, reactions, etc all weave together to form a complete picture.
Ohhhh...... Now I understand.
Ignore everything but MDDGs and others unfailing judgement on all things
related to coaching college basketball.
I swear everything you say just serves to help Wojos cause.
Are you secretly an extreme ProJo using reverse psychology?
Are you secretly Wojo?
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LOL it's identical
Nope....you are just wrong as is so often the case. He's either yanking your chain or just his way, I suspect a bit of both.
Moderators...please feel free to jump in here. 100% absolute stone cold lock he isn't me, but I do cherish how often some of you believe this the vacancy filled in your craniums at the thought of it brings a tear to me.
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The facts have been given. Largely, the Pro Wojers cite trendy Kenpom stats. Yet, when it comes to fundamentals that one can only see through the eye, they cower back into their holes. In other words, they don't know how to identify the proper weaknesses when evaluating a coach. A Pro Wojer doesn't understand how the talent on the court, the way they play together, the coaching calls, rhythm, spacing, reactions, etc all weave together to form a complete picture.
Translation: We don't need that fancy math learning stuff round here. My gut and eye tell me all I need to know.
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What's really funny,( actually ironic ), is that Cheeks was one of the people annoying me in the recruiting thread that triggered me to join the board, and now I'm being accused of being him.
To be sure MDDG and his or her incessantly, and excessively negative comments and threads, as well as his or her minions parroting his or her talking points, was a prime motivating factor also.
So actually, you have both of them to thank for my invaluable insight and analysis.
Sorry I annoyed you....you aren't the first, nor the last. There are plenty of others here that fill the role nicely, too.
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Sorry I annoyed you....you aren't the first, nor the last. There are plenty of others here that fill the role nicely, too.
Just to be clear, it wasn't what you were saying , it was where you were saying it.
You made a fairly innocuous comment about some college recruits caring more about money and the NBA than winning and were attacked for it. While your comment was related to recruiting in general and could be construed to apply to Marquette it didn't focus on current recruits or potential targets. I thought it was harmless and ignored it but others chose to go to war over it and you engaged them. I am not the recruiting thread police so feel free to ignore my complaints. I'm just not as savvy or connected as some scoopers and really count on the recruiting thread for information I can't find on my own. I am also easily frustrated by what I consider unnecessary clutter in the thread. That's on me.
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https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59669.msg1190561#msg1190561
Nobody called for his firing because it is more of the same. The people who have already seen the handwriting on the wall realize that the camps are already settled and it is going to continue in the same manner. MU will continue to perform at a mediocre level and the Wojo lovers will continue to offer excuses while wishing for a glimmer of hope. I love to hear that after almost 6 years we still see posts that "we are continuing to trend upward" or "we continue to see improvement" or "we need to see what Wojo does with next years class" and so on and so forth. These are all platitudes that are hog wash, after almost 6 years. I sure hope that Wojo makes the dance and wins a game in 2023.
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Nobody called for his firing because it is more of the same. The people who have already seen the handwriting on the wall realize that the camps are already settled and it is going to continue in the same manner. MU will continue to perform at a mediocre level and the Wojo lovers will continue to offer excuses while wishing for a glimmer of hope. I love to hear that after almost 6 years we still see posts that "we are continuing to trend upward" or "we continue to see improvement" or "we need to see what Wojo does with next years class" and so on and so forth. These are all platitudes that are hog wash, after almost 6 years. I sure hope that Wojo makes the dance and wins a game in 2023.
So say you.
The real FACTS are that Wojo HAS trended positive as evidenced by year over year success in recruiting, as well as regular season performance and tourney appearances. No amount of bloviating by extreme NoJos is going to change those FACTS.
The team seems to be getting longer and more athletic and next years class will further establish that trend.
For a first time head coach starting basically from scratch, in maybe the toughest conference in college basketball, I believe he has acquitted himself quite well.
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Just to be clear, it wasn't what you were saying , it was where you were saying it.
You made a fairly innocuous comment about some college recruits caring more about money and the NBA than winning and were attacked for it. While your comment was related to recruiting in general and could be construed to apply to Marquette it didn't focus on current recruits or potential targets. I thought it was harmless and ignored it but others chose to go to war over it and you engaged them. I am not the recruiting thread police so feel free to ignore my complaints. I'm just not as savvy or connected as some scoopers and really count on the recruiting thread for information I can't find on my own. I am also easily frustrated by what I consider unnecessary clutter in the thread. That's on me.
My BS meter just went off the charts when I read this seemingly contrived exchange.
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My BS meter just went off the charts when I read this seemingly contrived exchange.
There's still a lot of dead time on my hands, even when dealing with 2x Pro Wojers. I haven't even come close to bringing out the Premium Content yet.
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My BS meter just went off the charts when I read this seemingly contrived exchange.
Then it must be broke.
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There's still a lot of dead time on my hands, even when dealing with 2x Pro Wojers. I haven't even come close to bringing out the Premium Content yet.
In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter. Bring it.
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In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter. Bring it.
So, you did you have lunch with him today?
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In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter. Bring it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/7WwVYKDMt5khG/giphy.gif)
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So, you did you have lunch with him today?
No, I've been snacking on NoJos all day.
This place is a smorgas-board.
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In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter. Bring it.
Name dropping? Interesting!
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In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter. Bring it.
You work at the BAU?
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In my professional life I have dealt with guys like Hannibal Lecter.
So, fictional serial killers?
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Name dropping? Interesting!
This brings a new meaning to the “Meat Summit” and “I had lunch today with Jerry Palm”, aina? And, now I am very concerned about Hoopaloop since he hasn’t been seen or heard from since his Disney trip.
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So, fictional serial killers?
Actually Forensic Psychiatry in a maximum security setting. Psychopaths and Sociopaths mainly. Though HIPPA guidelines prevent me from going into specifics, I can say that some of the thought processes and behaviors displayed by the subjects I dealt with were quite similar to the movie character. So yeah, I'm used to dealing with extreme people and holding my own. I've also written thousands of detailed progress and incident reports for use in judicial hearings, so I can handle a few paragraphs on a message board quite easily.
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Actually Forensic Psychiatry in a maximum security setting. Psychopaths and Sociopaths mainly. Though HIPPA guidelines prevent me from going into specifics, I can say that some of the thought processes and behaviors displayed by the subjects I dealt with were quite similar to the movie character. So yeah, I'm used to dealing with extreme people and holding my own. I've also written thousands of detailed progress and incident reports for use in judicial hearings, so I can handle a few paragraphs on a message board quite easily.
But have you written research reports, hey?
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Actually Forensic Psychiatry in a maximum security setting. Psychopaths and Sociopaths mainly. Though HIPPA guidelines prevent me from going into specifics, I can say that some of the thought processes and behaviors displayed by the subjects I dealt with were quite similar to the movie character. So yeah, I'm used to dealing with extreme people and holding my own. I've also written thousands of detailed progress and incident reports for use in judicial hearings, so I can handle a few paragraphs on a message board quite easily.
Wait, what?
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Wait, what?
I listed my professional background in my PM. What is your question?
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I listed my professional background in my PM. What is your question?
Just went back and read that...I apologize....have no idea what it means, but to did say it.
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This brings a new meaning to the “Meat Summit” and “I had lunch today with Jerry Palm”, aina? And, now I am very concerned about Hoopaloop since he hasn’t been seen or heard from since his Disney trip.
Classic. Post of the year thus far!
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Just went back and read that...I apologize....have no idea what it means, but to did say it.
The explanation is in the body of my other post.
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This brings a new meaning to the “Meat Summit” and “I had lunch today with Jerry Palm”, aina? And, now I am very concerned about Hoopaloop since he hasn’t been seen or heard from since his Disney trip.
I'm too new here to get the joke, but LOL I guess?
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Name dropping? Interesting!
You're clueless about who I am but I've figured you out......
Your THAT guy, right????
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You're clueless about who I am but I've figured you out......
Your THAT guy, right????
He’s a twat
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Good stuff write heer, hey?
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So, fictional serial killers?
yes, why not bring up "Lampshade" Ed Gein or the guy with a freezer full of meat that the police at first missed, Chapman, for a little Wisconsin sausage flavor.
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Good stuff write heer, hey?
Crean sucks
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Truer words were neva spoken, aina?
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Though HIPPA guidelines prevent me from going into specifics
No such thang
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He’s a twat
"Ultimately would ask you to come together here, stop the labeling of others. As perhaps one of the biggest purveyors of this crap, I know what it looks like." --Jams
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yes, why not bring up "Lampshade" Ed Gein or the guy with a freezer full of meat that the police at first missed, Chapman, for a little Wisconsin sausage flavor.
Ed Gein was incarcerated at the place of my employment but before my time. He died in 1984.The place has changed a lot since he was there. Dahmer should have been sent there but he was so crazy he wanted to go to prison. That turned out to be a fatal decision.
But yeah guys like that are who I've dealt with.