Overreaction

[NersEllenson]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058

What do I win???

Good find - you will also see in the same article the blog College Basketball insider and blogger Eamonn Brennan wrote:

Tom Izzo's suspension reveals more about how hard it is to avoid recruiting violations than it does the coach's character, writes Eamonn Brennan. Blog

Funny someone with far more insight and much closer to the game than you finds there to be little wrong with Izzo's character - he defends Izzo - yet you and others here want to indict Buzz to clean up his act.

And since I didn't get a chance to comment on the other thread that got locked - yes, so you joined IWB's site right as you were banned from the Scout site and no longer had access to Insider content there...oh the irony!!

It's long been a pattern of yours to write "my sources" here at Scoop and going on to share the exact same content that was already shared on the insider boards at Dodds site and now IWB's.

Pretty laughable indeed.  At least I've always gotten a good laugh out of seeing your performance here just like clockwork after IWB releases some inside info.

[GGGG]

That is the second time you have made this accusation.  And as the first time, I am going to challenge you to indentify one time that I have passed something off here as coming from "my sources" when it was something pulled off IWBs insider board.  Just one.  (I have only been a member of that board since May or June.)

I have never been a member of Dodd's insider board and in fact have been banned from posting there.

The only time that I recall using a phrase "my sources" anyway was about when a player was facing academic issues.  And my source was not the IWB premium board, but someone who would know.

So either you step up and detail when I have done what you have accused....or you STFU.  Got that?

[real chili 83]

Note the irony in the title of this thread.

Mods, Time to lock this one too?

[brewcity77]

And since I didn't get a chance to comment on the other thread that got locked - yes, so you joined IWB's site right as you were banned from the Scout site and no longer had access to Insider content there...oh the irony!!

It's long been a pattern of yours to write "my sources" here at Scoop and going on to share the exact same content that was already shared on the insider boards at Dodds site and now IWB's.

Yeah...I'm a member over there too, and I haven't seen any inside info that Sultan posted here from IWB's board. And I was a member over at Scout before Dodds went on his psycho "You shall never disagree with me" rager, but unlike Sultan, I was in the Premium Forum. Or at least I assume it was unlike Sultan, because he never posted in there, and nothing against the guy, but he posts near as much as Chicos used to, so had he access to the Dodds Premium stuff, I'm pretty sure that he'd have been posting in there constantly as well.

I'm not going to speak to anyone's sources. I don't know who hears what or from whom. Some people seem credible, others often not. I know things I have heard in the past, I know who I have heard them from, but more often than not, when I hear something that people don't want me to put their name to, I just don't post it. But I haven't seen much of anything from IWB's Insider board that showed up on this site. Not from Sultan, not from anyone.

Though chili is probably right about this thread. Might be time for the mods to put damn near the whole place on lockdown, aside from the sweet beats by Dr. Dre.

[rocky_warrior]

FWIW, since we've gone there, there is nothing wrong with taking information you learn at a "premium" site and sharing it here as long as you don't copy 1:1.  It's no different than reading the WSJ and sharing info from an article with your buddies at lunch.  Dodds, IWB, and users at their sites like to berate people that "use" their information here, but there's nothing in their terms of service that should allow them to cut off you access if you share that information somewhere else. 

Just something I've noticed Ners and a few others saying.

[NersEllenson]

That is the second time you have made this accusation.  And as the first time, I am going to challenge you to indentify one time that I have passed something off here as coming from "my sources" when it was something pulled off IWBs insider board.  Just one.  (I have only been a member of that board since May or June.)

I have never been a member of Dodd's insider board and in fact have been banned from posting there.

The only time that I recall using a phrase "my sources" anyway was about when a player was facing academic issues.  And my source was not the IWB premium board, but someone who would know.

So either you step up and detail when I have done what you have accused....or you STFU.  Got that?

Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal?  To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie.  Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts.  But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.

Got that?

[brewcity77]

Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal?  To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie.  Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts.  But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.

Got that?

Oh the irony...Ners, this is the worst example of "Internet tough guy" post I've ever seen, and you open it by calling SSW a tough guy. Your STFUs and "Got that?" are priceless, truly some of the funniest stuff I've seen on here. I'm sure the next time it happens, Sultan will be peeking out the blinds when he leaves work to make sure you aren't in the parking lot.

And yes...I read Sultan's post, but yours is just funnier, only not in a good way.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

<End Scene>

[mu03eng]

I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:

Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.

Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.

There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.

Every time I think I'm out, they....well you know.

I'm a camp 1 guy.  I think a lot of the camp 2 folks on the board are painting the camp 1 people as LW haters.  Warhawk happens to like both Buzz and LW, and I think that is entirely reasonable.  I have no idea if LW or Father P are good or evil men, smart or dumb, etc...never met them and I won't draw a conclusion on them based on the evidence I've seen.  I have an opinion on their actions to date and that's it.

Both camps seem to want to paint each other as illogical and wrong.  Could be we all are and there is some third camp really going on.  But I don't get why everyone is hyperventilating in an effort to discount each others opinions and observations?  I know what I've seen, I take what others here have said(with various grains of salt depending on their history) and draw conclusions.  I thought that was what the message board was for?  Apparently having an opinion is a bad one around here regardless of which camp you are in.

Lastly, apparently we don't need Chicos around to explode things....or is all this because he's not here to be the lightening rod to which everyone can attack in unity? 

[GGGG]

Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal?  To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie.  Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts.  

LOL...."You are lying....but I can't prove it."

Lame...but entertaining.  

And again, I have a witness who posted here that I have not stolen any information and passed it off as my own.  So again, either step up...or shut up.  

[Newsdreams]

Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal?  To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie.  Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts.  But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.

Got that?

Wait now I'm confused is Sultan = Chicos? Is Ners = Chicos? But this is really getting too personal. Think everyone should just meet and have a couple of beers.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Every time I think I'm out, they....well you know.

I'm a camp 1 guy.  I think a lot of the camp 2 folks on the board are painting the camp 1 people as LW haters.  Warhawk happens to like both Buzz and LW, and I think that is entirely reasonable.  I have no idea if LW or Father P are good or evil men, smart or dumb, etc...never met them and I won't draw a conclusion on them based on the evidence I've seen.  I have an opinion on their actions to date and that's it.

Both camps seem to want to paint each other as illogical and wrong.  Could be we all are and there is some third camp really going on.  But I don't get why everyone is hyperventilating in an effort to discount each others opinions and observations?  I know what I've seen, I take what others here have said(with various grains of salt depending on their history) and draw conclusions.  I thought that was what the message board was for?  Apparently having an opinion is a bad one around here regardless of which camp you are in.

Lastly, apparently we don't need Chicos around to explode things....or is all this because he's not here to be the lightening rod to which everyone can attack in unity? 

Part of the issue is that a lot of communication is non-verbal, so posts can be misconstrued or interpreted to fit an existing bias.

If green is my all time favorite color, and you say that you think green is just OK, I might critique you, trying to prove to you that green is the best, and then we are off to the races.

You might even like green, but because I LOVE it, and you think "it's ok", (and this is the internet), it's enough to start a debate.

We need to check your own biases (we all have them), and if you find yourself hunting down another poster, just so you can disagree with him/her, it's probably time for a break. I'm guilty as charged, and stepping away from the keyboard was the best solution.

[Goose]

Guns
Agreed completely. I find myself wanting to defend myself and fall into that trap. Even the posters that can piss me off I am glad they are here because of their interest in the program. My goals for the program or method of gaining those goals are not for everyone and really do respect that.

For three months I have been waiting for someone to flat out make my tinfoil posts be completely wrong. I want to be wrong and part of my motive for posting was for someone to be able to have facts to make be wrong. After reading all of these posts for months my overall perspective has changed. While I still want 12 non traditional players that can play like UK or Vegas teams under Tark, I do understand the bigger picture better.

To sum it up, sorry for letting myself fall into the trap. Never meant to drive anyone crazy or beat issues in the ground. All that said, I did take pleasure in pissing off LabWarrior.

[bilsu]

Part of the issue is that a lot of communication is non-verbal, so posts can be misconstrued or interpreted to fit an existing bias.

If green is my all time favorite color, and you say that you think green is just OK, I might critique you, trying to prove to you that green is the best, and then we are off to the races.

You might even like green, but because I LOVE it, and you think "it's ok", (and this is the internet), it's enough to start a debate.

We need to check your own biases (we all have them), and if you find yourself hunting down another poster, just so you can disagree with him/her, it's probably time for a break. I'm guilty as charged, and stepping away from the keyboard was the best solution.

I think some shades of green are beautiful, some shades are alright and some shades are ugly.

[NersEllenson]

Oh the irony...Ners, this is the worst example of "Internet tough guy" post I've ever seen, and you open it by calling SSW a tough guy. Your STFUs and "Got that?" are priceless, truly some of the funniest stuff I've seen on here. I'm sure the next time it happens, Sultan will be peeking out the blinds when he leaves work to make sure you aren't in the parking lot.

And yes...I read Sultan's post, but yours is just funnier, only not in a good way.

Still a little bitter from our debate on Vander versus Gardner over a year ago??  Or do you always just jump in debates that have nothing to do with you?   It is funny how you and Sultan are always taking up for each other - but as I've said several times - I could give 2 craps what you or Sultan think about me - you guys have proven to be quite dense for awhile now.

[jmayer1]

you guys have proven to be quite dense for awhile now.

Oh the irony.

[jmayer1]

Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance.  You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.

I don't believe Buzz sent a personal email to you.

Do I believe Buzz thinks his program is above discipline??  No.  Do I know Buzz doesn't expect to open the local newspaper and see his boss of 90 days make disparaging remarks about him?  Yes.  Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension?  No.  Do I know if the relationship between the two can be mended and that they can coexist?  No.  Is it possible, the relationship could mend and improve?  Certainly.  Would I bet on it/Buzz being here in 2 years if Larry Williams is still A.D.?  No.  Would I bet Buzz would land on his feet at a high profile coaching job in a BCS conference even given all of the "warts" many in our own fanbase seem to want to pin on him??  Abso-freaking-lutely...and whatever sum of money anyone wants to bet...I'd take all of those bets.

Bold # 1 - No, you don't have any idea on this. LW was asked a question, he answered. Many people here, mainly you, blew it out of proportion.

Bold # 2 - It was Buzz's assistant. He broke a very minor rule, but lied. LW thinks part of that falls on Buzz as Monarch's Buzz and give him a minor disciplinary action. I am perfectly okay with that.

Bold # 3 - More blowing stuff out of proportion an insinuation. Very, very little solid, actual evidence to backup any supposed rift between LW and Buzz.

Buzz is doing a great job and I think he will be here a long time. I think LW is trying to clean up MU's image a bit. All of the "issues" on Buzz's watch have been pretty minor (aside from the sexual harassment allegations--but even that nobody know how serious that was and MU handled it awfully) and taken individually, nobody would bat an eye. However, I am a little uncomfortable with the sheer amount of things that have happened (and I know it's very tough to control 18-22 year olds) and would support LW's efforts on that front. However, if LW wants to take such drastic measures that they would "force out" Buzz, I would not be behind that. Having said that, if Buzz is a man of his word, I think he'd agree that some of the "rough edges" of the MU program over the past couple years could be ironed out a bit.

[NersEllenson]

I don't believe Buzz sent a personal email to you.

I don't care if you don't believe me - fact is he did - and I outlined exactly what the content of the -mail was - but that's fine - it's very adult like to call someone a liar when you have absolutely ZERO ability to prove your claims as true.

Bold # 1 - No, you don't have any idea on this. LW was asked a question, he answered. Many people here, mainly you, blew it out of proportion.

Bold # 2 - It was Buzz's assistant. He broke a very minor rule, but lied. LW thinks part of that falls on Buzz as Monarch's Buzz and give him a minor disciplinary action. I am perfectly okay with that.

Bold # 3 - More blowing stuff out of proportion an insinuation. Very, very little solid, actual evidence to backup any supposed rift between LW and Buzz.

Buzz is doing a great job and I think he will be here a long time. I think LW is trying to clean up MU's image a bit. All of the "issues" on Buzz's watch have been pretty minor (aside from the sexual harassment allegations--but even that nobody know how serious that was and MU handled it awfully) and taken individually, nobody would bat an eye. However, I am a little uncomfortable with the sheer amount of things that have happened (and I know it's very tough to control 18-22 year olds) and would support LW's efforts on that front. However, if LW wants to take such drastic measures that they would "force out" Buzz, I would not be behind that. Having said that, if Buzz is a man of his word, I think he'd agree that some of the "rough edges" of the MU program over the past couple years could be ironed out a bit.

Time will tell regarding the rift...I simply wouldn't bet any money on both Buzz and Larry being here to kick off the 2014-2015 season.  The only wildcard in all of it is Buzz's loyalty to his players and the recruits he signs - that would be the most difficult aspect of leaving MU - and could be the saving grace in all of this..

[jmayer1]

I don't care if you don't believe me - fact is he did - and I outlined exactly what the content of the -mail was - but that's fine - it's very adult like to call someone a liar when you have absolutely ZERO ability to prove your claims as true.

You very easily have the ability to prove it (feel free to PM to any number of people that doubt your story if you don't want to share with the whole board), but choose not to. Also, I don't think I ever saw you lay out the content of the email at all (maybe I missed it), but that's fine. Maybe you misconstrued a form letter that had your name at the top, I don't know. If you're so worried about me or others not believing you, then make us out to be the liars.

BTW, I wouldn't say I called you a liar, I feel that has a much worse connotative meaning that what I said, simply that I didn't believe you received a personal letter, but whatever.

[mr.MUskie]

I think some shades of green are beautiful, some shades are alright and some shades are ugly.

GREEN SUCKS!  RED IS BEST!!!

[brewcity77]

Still a little bitter from our debate on Vander versus Gardner over a year ago??  Or do you always just jump in debates that have nothing to do with you?

Nope. I just point out amusing where I see it. And you, my friend, are incredibly amusing. A bit hostile, but still genuinely funny, especially when you don't mean to be.

[NersEllenson]

Nope. I just point out amusing where I see it. And you, my friend, are incredibly amusing. A bit hostile, but still genuinely funny, especially when you don't mean to be.

Ironic.  Touche. 

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

I didn't read through the copious posts on the subject,  so apologies for echoing other sentiments.....

My 2 cents.  I believe Buzz was at the head of the table on this.  I can see how some might view this as something for Buzz to be upset about,  but I think he is the one that imposed it.....not the administration.

[Blackhat]

I've only brought the email up 1 time (today) since I mentioned it months ago...at which time I was pressed and pressed and pressed on the nature of the e-mail.  I outlined at that time the nature of the e-mail...as far as Buzz's response.  It was not a heart to heart e-mail...Buzz didn't share his deep dark feelings with me.  Did he write I agree with ALL you have written - with ALL capitalized??  Yes.  What I wrote is what I've expressed here on the topic - that I found the comments made by LW in the Journal Sentinel inappropriate, offensive, yet if not stated to the local paper could have some merit and benefit to Buzz from the perspective of taking his foot off the gas a little bit.  I also wrote that 90% of our fanbase loves him, but there seems to be a 10% faction that is self righteous and cannot accept 18-22 years olds making an occasional mistake - and that it is impossible for a coach to be with his players 24x7 and ensure they never get in trouble.

There you have it...for the 2nd time....as for why I may have been the only one who got a personal reply, beyond the standard one sent to most - perhaps mine was more personal/resonated more with Buzz.  No one here would ever dispute my mancrush on Buzz - and I'm sure that came across in the e-mail.  Ridicule me if you want.  Call me a liar.  I don't really give a sh$t - I know I'm not a liar, so does Jesus and that's good enough for me.  My first love has always been MU hoops, and I've loved MU hoops since Kevin O'Neill got to MU - hated when he left - saw the writing on the wall during the Deane years -was grateful and thrilled with what Tom Crean accomplished at MU...was genuinely upset when TC moved on because he'd done great things at MU...but Buzz Williams to me is a remarkable dude, who is a great man, who is getting great results at the school I love....and it seems we are close to running him off...and the guy has conducted himself better than any of the previous coaches I know of while at MU with regard to personal conduct.  He doesn't deserve to be crucified for things that are largely out of his control.

Solid post Ners.   

[dgies9156]

May we please close off this debate?

Everything that could be said has been said. Period. We need to move on.

Let's talk about recruiting, this year's prospects, Todd Mayo on campus, Vander's shot. Anything.

Six months from now, I hope we will be complaining about Buzz's rotations, shot selection or perhaps even our seed in the NCAA tournament. So lets move on.

Scoop Webmasters: Can we close this out????  Please???????????

Thank you.