Lawsuit: Female doctors say male co-worker paid more

[MU82]

This one should be interesting to follow.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article172670941.html

Right now, we don't have quite enough information to know exactly what the truth is. Over time, I'm guessing we will.

[Jay Bee]

Fire them!

[real chili 83]

Don't most docs get paid on productivity....RVU's?

[StillAWarrior]

Don't most docs get paid on productivity....RVU's?

Virtually every physician contract I've ever seen.  However, they do typically have a minimum base, a specified amount per RVU and a cap.  There is plenty of room for variation.  I'll withhold judgment.  If this is going to be a thing (i.e., posting a thread every time someone accuses his or her employer of unequal pay or discrimination), I could probably keep the Superbar pretty much filled up.  Of course, I would also have to post threads when the cases get dismissed or when they settle out for nuisance value.

This might be the single greatest equal pay case ever with a multi-million dollar jury verdict.  Or, it might be thrown out 12 months.  Most likely, though, it will be quietly settled.  But the mere fact that a lawsuit was filed is a somewhat odd subject for a thread.

[Benny B]

While I absolutely agree that no woman should ever be paid less than a man for doing the same job, let's not lose sight of the fact that some men are paid less than other men for doing the same job.

I agree that the statistics show - overall - than men are paid more than women in many cases, but this case seems to have singled out one male co-worker.  Now if it turns out that this is the only other male pediatrician in the health system, they certainly have an argument.  But it certainly looks like they found the highest paid male pediatrician (or someone who compares favorably from an experience standpoint) and used him as the benchmark.

But even if that's the case... how do you prove that you're being discriminated simply based on gender.  What if the male co-worker is the top pediatrician in the nation?  What if one of the females had been disciplined for misconduct?  What if the male co-worker has a stellar record?  What if the male co-worker brought along 500 new patients when he was hired?  What if the females saw/treated 30% less patients/hour than the others?

So many variables that one's salary could be based upon, but man or woman shouldn't be one of them.

Nevertheless, let's face facts that unless there's a level playing field and salaries are made public that there's always going to be people who make less than other people.  Ergo, I don't know how we prevent that from skewing along gender lines without interfering with a free-market system where people are able to negotiate contracts and salaries.  Frankly, businesses should be all over figuring this out, because someone else will very soon and when they do,  the rest won't realize what is going on until they've already lost half their existing (and potential) pool of employees.

[GGGG]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

[jsglow]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

THREE! 

[jesmu84]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI</a>

[MU82]

Virtually every physician contract I've ever seen.  However, they do typically have a minimum base, a specified amount per RVU and a cap.  There is plenty of room for variation.  I'll withhold judgment.  If this is going to be a thing (i.e., posting a thread every time someone accuses his or her employer of unequal pay or discrimination), I could probably keep the Superbar pretty much filled up.  Of course, I would also have to post threads when the cases get dismissed or when they settle out for nuisance value.

This might be the single greatest equal pay case ever with a multi-million dollar jury verdict.  Or, it might be thrown out 12 months.  Most likely, though, it will be quietly settled.  But the mere fact that a lawsuit was filed is a somewhat odd subject for a thread.

I just thought it was interesting. If nobody participates, then the thread will die a slow death. We had a thread on gender pay awhile back, so I guess I could have just revived that. Whatevs.

[forgetful]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI</a>

This video is misleading.  It suggests that if you share salary information people's salaries will go up.  In reality, most bosses are given a fixed raise pool, my Universities is a measly 1.8%.  That means if one person gets a 3.6% raise, it could very likely mean that someone else doesn't get a raise. 

Knowing what raises each person got (and knowing the total raise pool) means most bosses try to keep the range quite modest, e.g. highest raise ~2.5% and lowest around 1.1%.  Salaries don't go up, because the raise pool is fixed.

Of course, that 1.8% does not apply to upper administration, there is no cap on their raises.

Also, although wage discrimination against women does occur, blowing the whistle on every possible instance is not helpful.  Focusing on the legitimate and egregious discrimination is what is needed.  In my discipline, the women make far more.  Why?  Because women are under-represented in the field and diversity is a major commodity, so there are wage battles to hire qualified women.

Is that unfair to me that in some cases I get paid half what the woman does, when I have equal or better credentials (besides gender)?  No, because the value of increased diversity is real, and I can't offer that commodity/benefit, and since they are in shorter supply they have more value.

Who knows the situation at this hospital, the majority of pediatricians are female, maybe this hospital had a hard time recruiting a male pediatrician and needed to offer a financial incentive to recruit them. 

[Jockey]

Fire them!

The misogynist speaks again!!

Always attack the women. Wonder why no women wants to marry this guy

[Benny B]

This video is misleading.  It suggests that if you share salary information people's salaries will go up.  In reality, most bosses are given a fixed raise pool, my Universities is a measly 1.8%.  That means if one person gets a 3.6% raise, it could very likely mean that someone else doesn't get a raise. 

Knowing what raises each person got (and knowing the total raise pool) means most bosses try to keep the range quite modest, e.g. highest raise ~2.5% and lowest around 1.1%.  Salaries don't go up, because the raise pool is fixed.

Of course, that 1.8% does not apply to upper administration, there is no cap on their raises.

Also, although wage discrimination against women does occur, blowing the whistle on every possible instance is not helpful.  Focusing on the legitimate and egregious discrimination is what is needed.  In my discipline, the women make far more.  Why?  Because women are under-represented in the field and diversity is a major commodity, so there are wage battles to hire qualified women.

Is that unfair to me that in some cases I get paid half what the woman does, when I have equal or better credentials (besides gender)?  No, because the value of increased diversity is real, and I can't offer that commodity/benefit, and since they are in shorter supply they have more value.

Who knows the situation at this hospital, the majority of pediatricians are female, maybe this hospital had a hard time recruiting a male pediatrician and needed to offer a financial incentive to recruit them.

There's something inherently wrong with saying "in reality....." in one breath and then "my universities" [sic] in the next.  If you work for a university, unless you just took the job a few days ago, your sense of "reality" is as bastardized as the President's. 

(Disclaimer: If, however, you're talking strictly about the reality of the public and non-profit sectors, I withdraw my remarks and agree that your observations are dead-on correct.)

[Eldon]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

Many of the academics who study this issue believe that this aggressiveness is potentially one key element in the explanation of the persistence of the so-called 'wage gap'.  Underpinning this belief is that once the relevant controls are accounted for, e.g., profession, danger of the job, time trends, etc., there is still residual wage gap to be explained.  This residual contains a whole host of immeasurable factors, which include blatant discrimination as well as personality, e.g., aggressiveness in wage negotiation.

If anyone is interested in reading a fair-and-balanced, objective summary of the wage gap literature, I would strongly recommend this Vox piece, which is based on Claudia Goldin's (Econ prof at Harvard) presidential address to the American Economic Association a couple of years ago.

The tl;dr of the Vox article: women spend a disproportionate amount of time rearing children, which manifests as a lower-than-otherwise-would-be wage.  The dvidence comes from the fact that male and female wages diverge drastically around 30 years old.

(Some may think that Vox is not the most objective source in the world--and there is some truth to that--but this particular article is very good, especially in comparison to the majority of the crap that is out there on this subject).

[Eldon]

I just thought it was interesting. If nobody participates, then the thread will die a slow death. We had a thread on gender pay awhile back, so I guess I could have just revived that. Whatevs.

It was.  Don't be deterred. 

[MU82]

When I was in my mid-30s, I thought I deserved a raise above and beyond my company's standard pay scale. (My company called additional, above-grade salary bumps "merit raises.") My annual reviews had been stellar for years and I was extremely loyal to the company. My boss, with whom I was friendly (we weren't really "friends," but we had golfed together a few times, our families went out for dinner a couple of times, etc), had JUST written me a note, cc'd to our superiors, thanking me for being such " a valuable asset" to the company. The time was right to ask.

When I approached my boss, his first response was: "Well, if I give you a merit raise, others will want them, too." I said, "How will others know?" He said, "People just have ways of finding this stuff out."

So I said: "That shouldn't matter. I am an asset to you and to this company, and I deserve a raise." His response: "Well, so-and-so, so-and-so and so-and-so deserve raises, too." And I said: "Then they should get them. That has nothing to do with me."

He then said: "And unlike others here, you make some overtime." To which I responded: "Yeah ... because I EARN that overtime. It's not like I'm making OT by farting around."

I tried my best to stay level-headed and calm the entire time. Finally, he said: "Sorry, but it's not going to happen."

I stood up, looked him in the eye, and said: "You have just shown me what I am worth to you, and our relationship will never be the same again."

I walked out of his office and almost immediately began looking at other options. I transferred within the company to our Chicago bureau a few months later - getting a nice raise to do so.

My ex-boss replaced me, and that was that. probably didn't miss me for one second. We're all replaceable.

This has nothing to do with any kind of discrimination. It just shows that even aggressive raise-seekers with outstanding rationale for raises will get rejected sometimes - and that knowledge  can make the entire process very intimidating, regardless of gender, race, nationality, etc.

IMHO, each of us should be paid what we are "worth." Of course, defining that is the trick, isn't it?!?!

[GGGG]

When I was in my mid-30s, I thought I deserved a raise above and beyond my company's standard pay scale. (My company called additional, above-grade salary bumps "merit raises.") My annual reviews had been stellar for years and I was extremely loyal to the company. My boss, with whom I was friendly (we weren't really "friends," but we had golfed together a few times, our families went out for dinner a couple of times, etc), had JUST written me a note, cc'd to our superiors, thanking me for being such " a valuable asset" to the company. The time was right to ask.

When I approached my boss, his first response was: "Well, if I give you a merit raise, others will want them, too." I said, "How will others know?" He said, "People just have ways of finding this stuff out."

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

[rocket surgeon]

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

       now if that ain't a gentler, softer way to say sure, when pigs fly

not quite sure MU would have had a much different reaction to this one either.  suffice it to say, it's an easy way to get rid of someone without having to fire them or save money on payroll

   as a matter of fact, i'm going thru this right now as we speak.  either the employee that did not get a raise, isn't aware of the others that did, or doesn't want to cause trouble.  she is a great employee, but a workaholic with some unattended to health issues.  i am at the high end already with her and need to start winding her down(hours) as either the work load or diminishing her role would be the death of her and i don't want to play a role in either. 

[B. McBannerson]

With very few exceptions, when is a job the same even if the same category?  Same pay for same job reads great on a bumper sticker, but when is it really the same?

Are two environmental lawyers the same?  Education? Skill? Expertise? Work ethic?  Are two pediatricians the same?  Are two assembly line workers the same? 

[Eldon]

Google hit by gender pay gap lawsuit

SAN FRANCISCO — Google is being sued for gender pay discrimination, turning up the heat on the Internet giant already facing allegations it shortchanges women.

Three female former Google employees are seeking class-action status for the complaint filed Thursday in San Francisco Superior Court.

The Labor Department's investigation prompted Finberg to ask female Google employees to come forward if they had experienced pay discrimination. He and the other lawyers heard from 90 current and former employees.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/09/14/google-hit-gender-pay-gap-lawsuit-seeking-class-action-status/666944001/


Here is a very well-thought-out article that's related to the pay gap literature (I apologize, as I may have already posted it in the past):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woman-in-tech-i-realized-these-are-not-my-people

[MU82]

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

If he had responded that way to me, it would have been a lie. And he would have known that I knew it was a lie.

But I get your drift, and certainly agree about him being a poor manager.

[GGGG]

If he had responded that way to me, it would have been a lie. And he would have known that I knew it was a lie.

But I get your drift, and certainly agree about him being a poor manager.

No I mean if he gave you a raise, and if others asked for one, *that* should be what he said.  Sorry it didn't read well.

[4everwarriors]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

[GooooMarquette]

No I mean if he gave you a raise, and if others asked for one, *that* should be what he said.  Sorry it didn't read well.

Agreed.  If the system allows for merit-based increases, a good manager should be able to distinguish the good from the bad, give bonuses where appropriate, and not be overly concerned with "why not me too?" questions.

[rocket surgeon]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

  i had one, but for only a very brief time-ya see my long time male doc retired and as i'm sitting in the exam room waiting for my new doc, in walks this very young, very easy on the eyes new grad.  i am immediately a little concerned as i am not used to talking about "guy" things with a woman doc, much less a very pleasant looking one at that.  so she asks me what the reason for my appointment is and i immediately tell her how i am a little bit uneasy for all the aforementioned. she assures me that although she is young and fairly new to the medical field, she has seen an awful lot of issues throughout her training and she maintains a strict adherence to the utmost professionalism and standard of care.  so i take a deep breath and with a hint of hesitation tell her that my wife has been complaining of my junk tasting kinda funny.... they transferred my records to another doc

[warriorchick]

  i had one, but for only a very brief time-ya see my long time male doc retired and as i'm sitting in the exam room waiting for my new doc, in walks this very young, very easy on the eyes new grad.  i am immediately a little concerned as i am not used to talking about "guy" things with a woman doc, much less a very pleasant looking one at that.  so she asks me what the reason for my appointment is and i immediately tell her how i am a little bit uneasy for all the aforementioned. she assures me that although she is young and fairly new to the medical field, she has seen an awful lot of issues throughout her training and she maintains a strict adherence to the utmost professionalism and standard of care.  so i take a deep breath and with a hint of hesitation tell her that my wife has been complaining of my junk tasting kinda funny.... they transferred my records to another doc

I don't know what would be worse - to have this be a joke, or for it to be true.

[tower912]

I have a female urologist.  No worries.

[Lennys Tap]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

I do, and she's terrific.

[forgetful]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

I do.  Not only a great doctor, but was a great researcher (biochemistry) before focusing on medicine full time.  Best doctor I've ever had.

[warriorchick]

I do.  Not only a great doctor, but was a great researcher (biochemistry) before focusing on medicine full time.  Best doctor I've ever had.

Funny... no one ever thinks it's weird for a woman to  have a male gynecologist.

[dgies9156]

Gang, I have a strong and simple set of feelings about this:

1) I have a 22-year-old daughter who is a senior in college.
2) I have a 19-year-old son who is a sophomore in college.

I want my 22-year-old daughter and 19-year-old son to have the same opportunity and the same opportunity to be compensated. They both worked really hard in college and deserve to be treated fairly based on their skills, selected profession and effort.

Anybody who has been around awhile knows how bad gender discrimination once was. Any woman over 55 has stories out her stories. We've come a long way since the 1960s and 1970s but to suggest we're at the end of the road is absurd. Not every differential in compensation is gender discrimination (the female CEO of my firm is paid millions more than me -- is that gender discrimination? NO) but don't kid yourself, it's still there.

[jesmu84]

Gang, I have a strong and simple set of feelings about this:

1) I have a 22-year-old daughter who is a senior in college.
2) I have a 19-year-old son who is a sophomore in college.

I want my 22-year-old daughter and 19-year-old son to have the same opportunity and the same opportunity to be compensated. They both worked really hard in college and deserve to be treated fairly based on their skills, selected profession and effort.

Anybody who has been around awhile knows how bad gender discrimination once was. Any woman over 55 has stories out her stories. We've come a long way since the 1960s and 1970s but to suggest we're at the end of the road is absurd. Not every differential in compensation is gender discrimination (the female CEO of my firm is paid millions more than me -- is that gender discrimination? NO) but don't kid yourself, it's still there.

BS. Next you're going to tell us that there's racial discrimination

[Jay Bee]

I had a female doctor once and I died right there on the operating table. Be careful what you ax for.

[warriorchick]

I had a female doctor once and I died right there on the operating table. Be careful what you ax for.

You probably made an inappropriate comment to her before you went under.

[GGGG]

You probably made an inappropriate comment to her before you went under.

So to speak. 

[forgetful]

Funny... no one ever thinks it's weird for a woman to  have a male gynecologist.

Agreed.  I've never felt it odd that I see a female doctor.  Honestly would never have thought that others would find it weird either. 

Now if the doctor was one of my former students...then I would find it weird.

[GGGG]

That being said, when getting a massage I insist that the therapist be a woman.

[dgies9156]

BS. Next you're going to tell us that there's racial discrimination

Uhh, look dude, parts of this room are suggesting that statistical measures may reason away gender discrimination. "Uhhh, we can keep doing what we're doing because well, women .... (fill in the blank)......

At times the diversity push can be over the top. But it is necessary. My daughter needs the same opportunity as my son. Period. If we don't talk about it and pretend that other factors are the reason why, guess what, we keep on keeping on.

[Lennys Tap]

That being said, when getting a massage I insist that the therapist be a woman.

Bigot!

[warriorchick]

That being said, when getting a massage I insist that the therapist be a woman.

Because of this?

[4everwarriors]

Sew da digital exam, no matta, hey?

[GGGG]

Because of this?

I quote that scene every time. No joke.

[rocket surgeon]

In all seriousness, my(and my wife's)last 2 docs(past 25 years) were female, both retired and have been long time patients of mine.  Fantastic, irreplaceable practitioners and wonderful people.  still begging the most recently retired one to come back.  You couldn't pay them enough.  However, my wife has her own "girlie" doc as well

[Anti-Dentite]

  i had one, but for only a very brief time-ya see my long time male doc retired and as i'm sitting in the exam room waiting for my new doc, in walks this very young, very easy on the eyes new grad.  i am immediately a little concerned as i am not used to talking about "guy" things with a woman doc, much less a very pleasant looking one at that.  so she asks me what the reason for my appointment is and i immediately tell her how i am a little bit uneasy for all the aforementioned. she assures me that although she is young and fairly new to the medical field, she has seen an awful lot of issues throughout her training and she maintains a strict adherence to the utmost professionalism and standard of care.  so i take a deep breath and with a hint of hesitation tell her that my wife has been complaining of my junk tasting kinda funny.... they transferred my records to another doc

Do you get flop sweats while you type?

[rocket surgeon]

Do you get flop sweats while you type?

Yes, whatever those are, but I could go slower for ya if ya'd like

[CTWarrior]

Having lived in the corporate world and from what I know about the bean counters and managers, if they could really regularly hire and pay women significantly less, they would never hire men.  That's why I wonder about the reasons for the wage gap. 

[Jockey]

I had a female doctor once and I died right there on the operating table. Be careful what you ax for.

I'm guessing it was intentional.

[B. McBannerson]

Gang, I have a strong and simple set of feelings about this:

1) I have a 22-year-old daughter who is a senior in college.
2) I have a 19-year-old son who is a sophomore in college.

I want my 22-year-old daughter and 19-year-old son to have the same opportunity and the same opportunity to be compensated. They both worked really hard in college and deserve to be treated fairly based on their skills, selected profession and effort.

Anybody who has been around awhile knows how bad gender discrimination once was. Any woman over 55 has stories out her stories. We've come a long way since the 1960s and 1970s but to suggest we're at the end of the road is absurd. Not every differential in compensation is gender discrimination (the female CEO of my firm is paid millions more than me -- is that gender discrimination? NO) but don't kid yourself, it's still there.

What opportunities are being denied today?  The common line typically is fewer women in technology, engineering, etc.  Well, that's because there are so few graduates.  Companies are looking to cut costs all the time. If it was more beneficial to hire lower income workers to get the job done, companies would only hire women based on the accusations.  Companies would save enormous amounts of money.

Millenials make less than older workers.  Is this discrimination?  Or based on experience, years in the role, etc?

[MU82]

What opportunities are being denied today?  The common line typically is fewer women in technology, engineering, etc.  Well, that's because there are so few graduates.  Companies are looking to cut costs all the time. If it was more beneficial to hire lower income workers to get the job done, companies would only hire women based on the accusations.  Companies would save enormous amounts of money.

Millenials make less than older workers.  Is this discrimination?  Or based on experience, years in the role, etc?

No gender discrimination at all, chicos. Didn't ya hear? It's been solved, just like racism!! I mean, we had a black president, and we almost had a female president. Proof, baby! It's gone!!!

Let me tell y'all what it's like, being male, middle-class and white!

[GGGG]

What opportunities are being denied today?  The common line typically is fewer women in technology, engineering, etc.  Well, that's because there are so few graduates.

Right.  But that is a problem.

[warriorchick]

Right.  But that is a problem.

Why? Are there women who are being denied the opportunity to study engineering  because of their gender?

My guess is that the graduation rate for female STEM students is as high or higher than male students. The real sexism doesn't start until after they actually start working.

[WarriorInNYC]

What opportunities are being denied today?  The common line typically is fewer women in technology, engineering, etc.  Well, that's because there are so few graduates.  Companies are looking to cut costs all the time. If it was more beneficial to hire lower income workers to get the job done, companies would only hire women based on the accusations.  Companies would save enormous amounts of money.

There's a podcast I listen to and there was an episode that partly explains why there are fewer women in technology and computer engineering.  (http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding)

Basically, it started as a male-dominated field as when personal computers started appearing in homes, in the late 80's and early 90's, they were heavily marketed towards boys as toys.  And that led to boys tinkering around with them for years and eventually going into the field at universities.  Ultimately, this help build the narrative that technology and computer engineering were "for men" and its kind of snowballed from there, though I do think we've made quite some progress (not enough) since then.

Really great podcast IMO, and this episode I found quite interesting.

[GGGG]

Why? Are there women who are being denied the opportunity to study engineering  because of their gender?

My guess is that the graduation rate for female STEM students is as high or higher than male students. The real sexism doesn't start until after they actually start working.

I think there is both explicit sexism and societal biases has that are pushing females out of the STEM fields.

https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem

[PBRme]

I think there is both explicit sexism and societal biases has that are pushing females out of the STEM fields.

https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem

The title is slightly misleading.  All of the quoted information is about the challenges of women already in STEM fields and I didn't read anything where they left to pursue other fields.

Not saying there is not a problem, 

[GGGG]

The title is slightly misleading.  All of the quoted information is about the challenges of women already in STEM fields and I didn't read anything where they left to pursue other fields.

Not saying there is not a problem, 

I agree. 

[B. McBannerson]

I can only go on personal experiences and the literature.  The pay gap is a myth and has been shown by even the NY Times and so many others, mostly academia. When one normalizes for the types of jobs men and women do, the hours worked, the degrees \ experience.  For the most part, women' aren't climbing electrical poles, women aren't working construction, women aren't loggers, etc.  94% of job related fatalities happen to males and they get compensated for those types of jobs.  Even in the medical industry, fewer women tend to go on to specializations then their male counterparts. Is this because of opportunity?  I have a colleague married to a MD, she hasn't practiced in 12 years. Decided to stay home and raise the kids.  This is a woman with a MD.  He makes good money, that was a life choice they made together, with no regrets.

From a personal perspective, I work for a woman and on my team are 13 women and one man.  All of them make over 6 figures.  They are granted every opportunity that anyone else is.  In some cases, because our company is hypersensitive about diversity, some of these women have an advantage for promotions, awards and other areas of acknowledgement than their male counterparts.  It's a great time to be a woman in corporate America right now.  Minority women in corporate America can write their own ticket.  Companies are falling over themselves to show what they are doing in terms or promotions, high level positions.  The challenges remain in some of the tech areas where the qualified list of candidates is low due to low volume of graduates.

[GGGG]

I can only go on personal experiences and the literature.  The pay gap is a myth and has been shown by even the NY Times and so many others, mostly academia. When one normalizes for the types of jobs men and women do, the hours worked, the degrees \ experience.  For the most part, women' aren't climbing electrical poles, women aren't working construction, women aren't loggers, etc.  94% of job related fatalities happen to males and they get compensated for those types of jobs.  Even in the medical industry, fewer women tend to go on to specializations then their male counterparts. Is this because of opportunity?  I have a colleague married to a MD, she hasn't practiced in 12 years. Decided to stay home and raise the kids.  This is a woman with a MD.  He makes good money, that was a life choice they made together, with no regrets.

From a personal perspective, I work for a woman and on my team are 13 women and one man.  All of them make over 6 figures.  They are granted every opportunity that anyone else is.  In some cases, because our company is hypersensitive about diversity, some of these women have an advantage for promotions, awards and other areas of acknowledgement than their male counterparts.  It's a great time to be a woman in corporate America right now.  Minority women in corporate America can write their own ticket.  Companies are falling over themselves to show what they are doing in terms or promotions, high level positions.  The challenges remain in some of the tech areas where the qualified list of candidates is low due to low volume of graduates.

"I don't care what the stats say.  I will go by my personal experience!  And then I will make a sweeping statement based on that statement."

Typical Chicos...

[tower912]

Unless he actually has statistics.    Then the statistics are paramount and anyone else's opinion irrelevant. 

[forgetful]

"I don't care what the stats say.  I will go by my personal experience!  And then I will make a sweeping statement based on that statement."

Typical Chicos...

Except that is not what he said.  He said that he is going by both personal experience and literature (aka stats).  His point is that if you normalize for specific jobs that the pay gap is a myth.  Statistics do back this up and as he notes numerous academic studies and publications from even very liberal organizations confirm that if you correct for type of job, hours worked etc, there is no pay gap...indeed in many fields beginning professional woman get a pay advantage. 

That is not saying that pay gaps don't exist, or that women are not discriminated against, and most certainly that there isn't an income disparity in people that have been working for 20+ years (that have built in institutional and historical pay/opportunity disadvantages). 

It is saying that if you do statistics and correct for things like "type of job" and "hours worked" and "experience level" that the reported "pay gaps" vanish, and that the other reports do not correct for important variables. 

Does discrimination in the workplace still exist.  Yes, most certainly.  I know department chairs (who are women) that will not hire another woman, because they may "run off and have kids instead of working" (their words).  And on average women make less, because the senior higher paying positions are dominated by people who got those jobs 20+ years ago when discrimination was incredibly rampant and severe.  If you look at people just starting, women earn 10-20% more than their male counterparts at the same level of experience and qualifications (in my field). 

If you ran statistics across that entire spectrum, it would report something that looks like women earning 78 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If you looked at it at the same experience level, it is flat across the board.  If you look at it for the younger generation (starting in the last 10ish years) the women make 1.10-1.20 for every dollar a man makes in my field.  How you run the statistics is important.  And again, this is in my field. 

If you go to other fields, the maximum like-for-like pay gaps do not exceed 5-6% (occurs in the IT industry), and even those studies admit much of this is due to large pay gaps at the most senior positions. 

Chico's here is presenting the results of most studies that correct for many aspects of the disparities and look at like-for-like.  Now, whether the adjustments are correctly done or not is not my area and I cannot judge it. 

I'm not one to be a big defender of Chico's.  But his statements here are based on statistics.  The question is what method of doing these statistics is most accurate.  I don't know, and am not qualified to make such a decision, but dismissing this as typical Chico's is also invalid.

[rocket surgeon]

"I don't care what the stats say.  I will go by my personal experience!  And then I will make a sweeping statement based on that statement."

Typical Chicos...

Classic!  If this message were to have come from, say, pakuni(no offense) or one of your other 2 friends here, you would have slobbered all over it and maybe even added something constructive to it.  I sense a little pent up wasted energy here.  Jogging, perhaps yoga may help

[GGGG]

Except that is not what he said.  He said that he is going by both personal experience and literature (aka stats).  His point is that if you normalize for specific jobs that the pay gap is a myth.  Statistics do back this up and as he notes numerous academic studies and publications from even very liberal organizations confirm that if you correct for type of job, hours worked etc, there is no pay gap...indeed in many fields beginning professional woman get a pay advantage. 

That is not saying that pay gaps don't exist, or that women are not discriminated against, and most certainly that there isn't an income disparity in people that have been working for 20+ years (that have built in institutional and historical pay/opportunity disadvantages). 

It is saying that if you do statistics and correct for things like "type of job" and "hours worked" and "experience level" that the reported "pay gaps" vanish, and that the other reports do not correct for important variables. 

Does discrimination in the workplace still exist.  Yes, most certainly.  I know department chairs (who are women) that will not hire another woman, because they may "run off and have kids instead of working" (their words).  And on average women make less, because the senior higher paying positions are dominated by people who got those jobs 20+ years ago when discrimination was incredibly rampant and severe.  If you look at people just starting, women earn 10-20% more than their male counterparts at the same level of experience and qualifications (in my field). 

If you ran statistics across that entire spectrum, it would report something that looks like women earning 78 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If you looked at it at the same experience level, it is flat across the board.  If you look at it for the younger generation (starting in the last 10ish years) the women make 1.10-1.20 for every dollar a man makes in my field.  How you run the statistics is important.  And again, this is in my field. 

If you go to other fields, the maximum like-for-like pay gaps do not exceed 5-6% (occurs in the IT industry), and even those studies admit much of this is due to large pay gaps at the most senior positions. 

Chico's here is presenting the results of most studies that correct for many aspects of the disparities and look at like-for-like.  Now, whether the adjustments are correctly done or not is not my area and I cannot judge it. 

I'm not one to be a big defender of Chico's.  But his statements here are based on statistics.  The question is what method of doing these statistics is most accurate.  I don't know, and am not qualified to make such a decision, but dismissing this as typical Chico's is also invalid.

I wasn't disputing this point. I do appreciate this however.

[GGGG]

Classic!  If this message were to have come from, say, pakuni(no offense) or one of your other 2 friends here, you would have slobbered all over it and maybe even added something constructive to it.  I sense a little pent up wasted energy here.  Jogging, perhaps yoga may help

Says the guy who insisted that Chicos moved on from Scoop.

[rocket surgeon]

Says the guy who insisted that Chicos moved on from Scoop.

Context my man, context...oh, forget the yoga-bad visual of guys in those special pants; couch time and maybe some pharmaceuticals first.

[GGGG]

Context my man, context...

IOW, you fell for it.

[rocket surgeon]

IOW, you fell for it.

Fell for what?  Hang on, I gotta look up this IOW stuff

[Benny B]

I wasn't disputing this point. I do appreciate this however.