Lawsuit: Female doctors say male co-worker paid more

[MU82]

This one should be interesting to follow.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article172670941.html

Right now, we don't have quite enough information to know exactly what the truth is. Over time, I'm guessing we will.

[Jay Bee]

Fire them!

[real chili 83]

Don't most docs get paid on productivity....RVU's?

[StillAWarrior]

Don't most docs get paid on productivity....RVU's?

Virtually every physician contract I've ever seen.  However, they do typically have a minimum base, a specified amount per RVU and a cap.  There is plenty of room for variation.  I'll withhold judgment.  If this is going to be a thing (i.e., posting a thread every time someone accuses his or her employer of unequal pay or discrimination), I could probably keep the Superbar pretty much filled up.  Of course, I would also have to post threads when the cases get dismissed or when they settle out for nuisance value.

This might be the single greatest equal pay case ever with a multi-million dollar jury verdict.  Or, it might be thrown out 12 months.  Most likely, though, it will be quietly settled.  But the mere fact that a lawsuit was filed is a somewhat odd subject for a thread.

[Benny B]

While I absolutely agree that no woman should ever be paid less than a man for doing the same job, let's not lose sight of the fact that some men are paid less than other men for doing the same job.

I agree that the statistics show - overall - than men are paid more than women in many cases, but this case seems to have singled out one male co-worker.  Now if it turns out that this is the only other male pediatrician in the health system, they certainly have an argument.  But it certainly looks like they found the highest paid male pediatrician (or someone who compares favorably from an experience standpoint) and used him as the benchmark.

But even if that's the case... how do you prove that you're being discriminated simply based on gender.  What if the male co-worker is the top pediatrician in the nation?  What if one of the females had been disciplined for misconduct?  What if the male co-worker has a stellar record?  What if the male co-worker brought along 500 new patients when he was hired?  What if the females saw/treated 30% less patients/hour than the others?

So many variables that one's salary could be based upon, but man or woman shouldn't be one of them.

Nevertheless, let's face facts that unless there's a level playing field and salaries are made public that there's always going to be people who make less than other people.  Ergo, I don't know how we prevent that from skewing along gender lines without interfering with a free-market system where people are able to negotiate contracts and salaries.  Frankly, businesses should be all over figuring this out, because someone else will very soon and when they do,  the rest won't realize what is going on until they've already lost half their existing (and potential) pool of employees.

[GGGG]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

[jsglow]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

THREE! 

[jesmu84]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI</a>

[MU82]

Virtually every physician contract I've ever seen.  However, they do typically have a minimum base, a specified amount per RVU and a cap.  There is plenty of room for variation.  I'll withhold judgment.  If this is going to be a thing (i.e., posting a thread every time someone accuses his or her employer of unequal pay or discrimination), I could probably keep the Superbar pretty much filled up.  Of course, I would also have to post threads when the cases get dismissed or when they settle out for nuisance value.

This might be the single greatest equal pay case ever with a multi-million dollar jury verdict.  Or, it might be thrown out 12 months.  Most likely, though, it will be quietly settled.  But the mere fact that a lawsuit was filed is a somewhat odd subject for a thread.

I just thought it was interesting. If nobody participates, then the thread will die a slow death. We had a thread on gender pay awhile back, so I guess I could have just revived that. Whatevs.

[forgetful]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xH7eGFuSYI</a>

This video is misleading.  It suggests that if you share salary information people's salaries will go up.  In reality, most bosses are given a fixed raise pool, my Universities is a measly 1.8%.  That means if one person gets a 3.6% raise, it could very likely mean that someone else doesn't get a raise. 

Knowing what raises each person got (and knowing the total raise pool) means most bosses try to keep the range quite modest, e.g. highest raise ~2.5% and lowest around 1.1%.  Salaries don't go up, because the raise pool is fixed.

Of course, that 1.8% does not apply to upper administration, there is no cap on their raises.

Also, although wage discrimination against women does occur, blowing the whistle on every possible instance is not helpful.  Focusing on the legitimate and egregious discrimination is what is needed.  In my discipline, the women make far more.  Why?  Because women are under-represented in the field and diversity is a major commodity, so there are wage battles to hire qualified women.

Is that unfair to me that in some cases I get paid half what the woman does, when I have equal or better credentials (besides gender)?  No, because the value of increased diversity is real, and I can't offer that commodity/benefit, and since they are in shorter supply they have more value.

Who knows the situation at this hospital, the majority of pediatricians are female, maybe this hospital had a hard time recruiting a male pediatrician and needed to offer a financial incentive to recruit them. 

[Jockey]

Fire them!

The misogynist speaks again!!

Always attack the women. Wonder why no women wants to marry this guy

[Benny B]

This video is misleading.  It suggests that if you share salary information people's salaries will go up.  In reality, most bosses are given a fixed raise pool, my Universities is a measly 1.8%.  That means if one person gets a 3.6% raise, it could very likely mean that someone else doesn't get a raise. 

Knowing what raises each person got (and knowing the total raise pool) means most bosses try to keep the range quite modest, e.g. highest raise ~2.5% and lowest around 1.1%.  Salaries don't go up, because the raise pool is fixed.

Of course, that 1.8% does not apply to upper administration, there is no cap on their raises.

Also, although wage discrimination against women does occur, blowing the whistle on every possible instance is not helpful.  Focusing on the legitimate and egregious discrimination is what is needed.  In my discipline, the women make far more.  Why?  Because women are under-represented in the field and diversity is a major commodity, so there are wage battles to hire qualified women.

Is that unfair to me that in some cases I get paid half what the woman does, when I have equal or better credentials (besides gender)?  No, because the value of increased diversity is real, and I can't offer that commodity/benefit, and since they are in shorter supply they have more value.

Who knows the situation at this hospital, the majority of pediatricians are female, maybe this hospital had a hard time recruiting a male pediatrician and needed to offer a financial incentive to recruit them.

There's something inherently wrong with saying "in reality....." in one breath and then "my universities" [sic] in the next.  If you work for a university, unless you just took the job a few days ago, your sense of "reality" is as bastardized as the President's. 

(Disclaimer: If, however, you're talking strictly about the reality of the public and non-profit sectors, I withdraw my remarks and agree that your observations are dead-on correct.)

[Eldon]

What if one person was more of a hardass during salary negotiations?
What if one person is more willing to ask for a raise than the other person?

Do I think gender discrimination exists in the workplace today?  Definitely.  Do I think factors other than discrimination are reasons why women are paid less then men?  Absolutely.  Do I have any idea how much discrimination plays a role vis-a-vis these other factors?  I have no clue.

Many of the academics who study this issue believe that this aggressiveness is potentially one key element in the explanation of the persistence of the so-called 'wage gap'.  Underpinning this belief is that once the relevant controls are accounted for, e.g., profession, danger of the job, time trends, etc., there is still residual wage gap to be explained.  This residual contains a whole host of immeasurable factors, which include blatant discrimination as well as personality, e.g., aggressiveness in wage negotiation.

If anyone is interested in reading a fair-and-balanced, objective summary of the wage gap literature, I would strongly recommend this Vox piece, which is based on Claudia Goldin's (Econ prof at Harvard) presidential address to the American Economic Association a couple of years ago.

The tl;dr of the Vox article: women spend a disproportionate amount of time rearing children, which manifests as a lower-than-otherwise-would-be wage.  The dvidence comes from the fact that male and female wages diverge drastically around 30 years old.

(Some may think that Vox is not the most objective source in the world--and there is some truth to that--but this particular article is very good, especially in comparison to the majority of the crap that is out there on this subject).

[Eldon]

I just thought it was interesting. If nobody participates, then the thread will die a slow death. We had a thread on gender pay awhile back, so I guess I could have just revived that. Whatevs.

It was.  Don't be deterred. 

[MU82]

When I was in my mid-30s, I thought I deserved a raise above and beyond my company's standard pay scale. (My company called additional, above-grade salary bumps "merit raises.") My annual reviews had been stellar for years and I was extremely loyal to the company. My boss, with whom I was friendly (we weren't really "friends," but we had golfed together a few times, our families went out for dinner a couple of times, etc), had JUST written me a note, cc'd to our superiors, thanking me for being such " a valuable asset" to the company. The time was right to ask.

When I approached my boss, his first response was: "Well, if I give you a merit raise, others will want them, too." I said, "How will others know?" He said, "People just have ways of finding this stuff out."

So I said: "That shouldn't matter. I am an asset to you and to this company, and I deserve a raise." His response: "Well, so-and-so, so-and-so and so-and-so deserve raises, too." And I said: "Then they should get them. That has nothing to do with me."

He then said: "And unlike others here, you make some overtime." To which I responded: "Yeah ... because I EARN that overtime. It's not like I'm making OT by farting around."

I tried my best to stay level-headed and calm the entire time. Finally, he said: "Sorry, but it's not going to happen."

I stood up, looked him in the eye, and said: "You have just shown me what I am worth to you, and our relationship will never be the same again."

I walked out of his office and almost immediately began looking at other options. I transferred within the company to our Chicago bureau a few months later - getting a nice raise to do so.

My ex-boss replaced me, and that was that. probably didn't miss me for one second. We're all replaceable.

This has nothing to do with any kind of discrimination. It just shows that even aggressive raise-seekers with outstanding rationale for raises will get rejected sometimes - and that knowledge  can make the entire process very intimidating, regardless of gender, race, nationality, etc.

IMHO, each of us should be paid what we are "worth." Of course, defining that is the trick, isn't it?!?!

[GGGG]

When I was in my mid-30s, I thought I deserved a raise above and beyond my company's standard pay scale. (My company called additional, above-grade salary bumps "merit raises.") My annual reviews had been stellar for years and I was extremely loyal to the company. My boss, with whom I was friendly (we weren't really "friends," but we had golfed together a few times, our families went out for dinner a couple of times, etc), had JUST written me a note, cc'd to our superiors, thanking me for being such " a valuable asset" to the company. The time was right to ask.

When I approached my boss, his first response was: "Well, if I give you a merit raise, others will want them, too." I said, "How will others know?" He said, "People just have ways of finding this stuff out."

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

[rocket surgeon]

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

       now if that ain't a gentler, softer way to say sure, when pigs fly

not quite sure MU would have had a much different reaction to this one either.  suffice it to say, it's an easy way to get rid of someone without having to fire them or save money on payroll

   as a matter of fact, i'm going thru this right now as we speak.  either the employee that did not get a raise, isn't aware of the others that did, or doesn't want to cause trouble.  she is a great employee, but a workaholic with some unattended to health issues.  i am at the high end already with her and need to start winding her down(hours) as either the work load or diminishing her role would be the death of her and i don't want to play a role in either. 

[B. McBannerson]

With very few exceptions, when is a job the same even if the same category?  Same pay for same job reads great on a bumper sticker, but when is it really the same?

Are two environmental lawyers the same?  Education? Skill? Expertise? Work ethic?  Are two pediatricians the same?  Are two assembly line workers the same? 

[Eldon]

Google hit by gender pay gap lawsuit

SAN FRANCISCO — Google is being sued for gender pay discrimination, turning up the heat on the Internet giant already facing allegations it shortchanges women.

Three female former Google employees are seeking class-action status for the complaint filed Thursday in San Francisco Superior Court.

The Labor Department's investigation prompted Finberg to ask female Google employees to come forward if they had experienced pay discrimination. He and the other lawyers heard from 90 current and former employees.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/09/14/google-hit-gender-pay-gap-lawsuit-seeking-class-action-status/666944001/


Here is a very well-thought-out article that's related to the pay gap literature (I apologize, as I may have already posted it in the past):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woman-in-tech-i-realized-these-are-not-my-people

[MU82]

He was using his inability to be a good supervisor to turn you down.  If someone asks me why someone else got a raise and they didn't, I respond with "I thought her performance deserved recognition and your's isn't quite at that level."

If he had responded that way to me, it would have been a lie. And he would have known that I knew it was a lie.

But I get your drift, and certainly agree about him being a poor manager.

[GGGG]

If he had responded that way to me, it would have been a lie. And he would have known that I knew it was a lie.

But I get your drift, and certainly agree about him being a poor manager.

No I mean if he gave you a raise, and if others asked for one, *that* should be what he said.  Sorry it didn't read well.

[4everwarriors]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

[GooooMarquette]

No I mean if he gave you a raise, and if others asked for one, *that* should be what he said.  Sorry it didn't read well.

Agreed.  If the system allows for merit-based increases, a good manager should be able to distinguish the good from the bad, give bonuses where appropriate, and not be overly concerned with "why not me too?" questions.

[rocket surgeon]

Just axin', how many y'all dudes have a female internist, hey?

  i had one, but for only a very brief time-ya see my long time male doc retired and as i'm sitting in the exam room waiting for my new doc, in walks this very young, very easy on the eyes new grad.  i am immediately a little concerned as i am not used to talking about "guy" things with a woman doc, much less a very pleasant looking one at that.  so she asks me what the reason for my appointment is and i immediately tell her how i am a little bit uneasy for all the aforementioned. she assures me that although she is young and fairly new to the medical field, she has seen an awful lot of issues throughout her training and she maintains a strict adherence to the utmost professionalism and standard of care.  so i take a deep breath and with a hint of hesitation tell her that my wife has been complaining of my junk tasting kinda funny.... they transferred my records to another doc

[warriorchick]

  i had one, but for only a very brief time-ya see my long time male doc retired and as i'm sitting in the exam room waiting for my new doc, in walks this very young, very easy on the eyes new grad.  i am immediately a little concerned as i am not used to talking about "guy" things with a woman doc, much less a very pleasant looking one at that.  so she asks me what the reason for my appointment is and i immediately tell her how i am a little bit uneasy for all the aforementioned. she assures me that although she is young and fairly new to the medical field, she has seen an awful lot of issues throughout her training and she maintains a strict adherence to the utmost professionalism and standard of care.  so i take a deep breath and with a hint of hesitation tell her that my wife has been complaining of my junk tasting kinda funny.... they transferred my records to another doc

I don't know what would be worse - to have this be a joke, or for it to be true.