Why is the Law School Falling in USWNR?

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Do you presume to know more of this situation than I? Over 20 years, I have grown very close to this family. I have known her since she was in high school. I speak with her directly about once a month. I visited her at NYU. I helped her LLM work. I know every firm she has applied to and their response.

 When the O&G business shuts down acquisitions, and most production and development (which is what has occurred with this glut) outside lawyers are only used for downstream services, lease renewal and pipeline/refinery regulatory work. So Yes O&G law sections are not hiring....the existing lawyers/staff is more than enough to handle the reduced workloads. During the Bankruptcy boom of the mid 80s our 250 person firm froze O&G, Real Estate section hiring. Partners stay, but associates and new hires are where adjustments downward can most easily be made, in response to law business downturns. But you know better lol

Please dont impugn someone you dont know with cracks about stringing sentences together....this person is very articulate, smart and gifted...not that you deserve to know.

Private firms are not expanding their O&G sections during times of billion plus paper losses at the majors, massive industry layoffs, etc Its not surprising.

Clearly This young lady could find employment out of her chosen field...the resume would get her into a practice in other areas...but her chosen field is currently dry. It happens. Her choice to "stay in the Biz", by working at the family oil company was her only and best option.

Please knock off the conclusory,  insulting stuff on something as here which you know nothing of.

Saying she can't get a legal job in her preferred niche practice area is completely different than implying that she can't get a biglaw job period.  The fact that the energy industry is down says nothing about legal hiring generally. 

I stand by my implication that an honors NYU grad whose daddy is an executive at an oil company must have severe social disabilities if they can't land a biglaw job at all.

[GooooMarquette]

Nobody is hiring oil & gas right now.  Even if you were the top of your class at Yale and didn't rape anyone, if you're at a big firm working oil & gas, you better hope you have seniority.

Agree.  I think it's misleading to draw general conclusions about law graduates' marketability by looking at an example in one industry that is way down.

The market is way softer than it used to be...but someone in the top 10% at NYU would likely be able to get a pretty good job at many places if she didn't restrict her focus to a (currently) very weak sector of the economy.

[HouWarrior]

Saying she can't get a legal job in her preferred niche practice area is completely different than implying that she can't get a biglaw job period.  The fact that the energy industry is down says nothing about legal hiring generally. 

I stand by my implication that an honors NYU grad whose daddy is an executive at an oil company must have severe social disabilities if they can't land a biglaw job at all.

You are not as aware of even big firm general hirings, as you think. In the 2008 crash many froze all hirings. 2-3 years of grad classes, including top percenters were way underhired, while JD production continued. This created a backlog glut that has still not been completely reabsorbed.

Further Big firms : 1) started keeping experienced non partner attorneys, as salaried "senior attorneys" (at about the cost of a 1-2 year attorney) instead of asking them to leave when not making partners.(more experience, better bill rate, lower net cost)  2) outsourced  documents crunching, researching and briefing--- the staples of young associate work. 3) have learned that the clients will no longer underwrite the first year attorney (at 150-175k) to be an extra body at deposition, court hearings, or simply attend for training...they insist on cheaper paralegals for support work.and 4) in lieu of mergers, firms pursue laterals with portables.  The openings for a typical new associate to a traditional partner track job...is a fraction of what it used to be.

Your severe social disabilities crack simply indicates you cant resist being unnecessarily insulting...thats just sad, for you.

PS Here is a quick link to "Biglaw ads" ...notice the high amount of IP, litigation, some finance and real estate....O&G is nowhere to be seen.
Would you hire a O&G LLM to work in these other fields...no ...they already have plenty Top Tier ten percenters looking for the same jobs with direct training in the field. Her specialization choice works against her...including in prospective category shifts, too:
http://www.gobiglaw.com/

[Ellenson Guerrero]

You are not as aware of even big firm general hirings, as you think. In the 2008 crash many froze all hirings. 2-3 years of grad classes, including top percenters were way underhired, while JD production continued. This created a backlog glut that has still not been completely reabsorbed.

Further Big firms : 1) started keeping experienced non partner attorneys, as salaried "senior attorneys" (at about the cost of a 1-2 year attorney) instead of asking them to leave when not making partners.(more experience, better bill rate, lower net cost)  2) outsourced  documents crunching, researching and briefing--- the staples of young associate work. and 3) have learned that the clients will no longer underwrite the first year attorney (at 150-175k) to be an extra body at deposition, court hearings, or simply attend for training...they insist on cheaper paralegals for support work.  The openings for a typical new associate to a traditional partner track job...is a fraction of what it used to be.
Your severe social disabilities crack simply indicates you can resist being unnecessarily insulting...thats just sad, for you.

Listen, I get it: this girl was highly motivated to pursue a particular type of law and that field is in the dumpster right now. She's fortunate to have other options.  However, the fact remains that if she wanted to pursue a big law job, she could, it just might not be her top choice in terms of practice area.  I wasn't trying to insult this anonymous person I know nothing about who will never read this forum; I was just pointing out that there had to be more to the story.

I may not be knowledgeable about many things in this world, but post-recession biglaw hiring from T-14 law schools is one of them. 

[jficke13]

You are not as aware of even big firm general hirings, as you think. In the 2008 crash many froze all hirings. 2-3 years of grad classes, including top percenters were way underhired, while JD production continued. This created a backlog glut that has still not been completely reabsorbed.

Further Big firms : 1) started keeping experienced non partner attorneys, as salaried "senior attorneys" (at about the cost of a 1-2 year attorney) instead of asking them to leave when not making partners.(more experience, better bill rate, lower net cost)  2) outsourced  documents crunching, researching and briefing--- the staples of young associate work. and 3) have learned that the clients will no longer underwrite the first year attorney (at 150-175k) to be an extra body at deposition, court hearings, or simply attend for training...they insist on cheaper paralegals for support work.  The openings for a typical new associate to a traditional partner track job...is a fraction of what it used to be.
Your severe social disabilities crack simply indicates you can resist being unnecessarily insulting...thats just sad, for you.

That just goes to support my contention that there is a vast oversupply of new JDs. "The openings for a typical new associate to a traditional partner track job... is a fraction of what it used to be" means that the number of JDs entering the market should be a proportional fraction of what it used to be as well.

[HouWarrior]

Listen, I get it: this girl was highly motivated to pursue a particular type of law and that field is in the dumpster right now. She's fortunate to have other options.  However, the fact remains that if she wanted to pursue a big law job, she could, it just might not be her top choice in terms of practice area.  I wasn't trying to insult this anonymous person I know nothing about who will never read this forum; I was just pointing out that there had to be more to the story.

I may not be knowledgeable about many things in this world, but post-recession biglaw hiring from T-14 law schools is one of them.

Thats not in your control. I will show/link her to this. Your words will hurt but you will think twice next time

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Thats not in your control. I will show/link her to this. Your words will hurt but you will think twice next time

What kind of insane response is that?

A) It doesn't respond to my point that you initially left out a key detail of her hiring process (a detail that puts my statement in context and that should make it non-offensive to any reasonable person).

B) Why would you show something (purportedly) hurtful to someone you care about to make some anonymous internet poster "think twice next time"?

[jficke13]

Thats not in your control. I will show/link her to this. Your words will hurt but you will think twice next time

(tangent warning) Why will you show her? What good will that serve?

"This idiot on the internet insulted you. I figured you'd want to know. I know your feeling will be hurt, but we'll show that guy, amirite?"

[HouWarrior]

What kind of insane response is that?

A) It doesn't respond to my point that you initially left out a key detail of her hiring process (a detail that puts my statement in context and that should make it non-offensive to any reasonable person).

B) Why would you show something (purportedly) hurtful to someone you care about to make some anonymous internet poster "think twice next time"?

Of course I am not going to share something so hurtful. In light of the repetitive insulting,  lack of any apology and your belief in the consequent-less nature of your postings....I wanted to ensure you at least one moment of stomach drop with the feigned threat . Anything we post here should be on the standard that the whole world may see or that you would say it again right to their face. Anonymous insulting is cowardly

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Just for my own clarification, I feel like law school rankings are a catch 22 which is why it's hard to move up. If you don't get good positions, you can't move up but if you don't go to a high ranking school you can't get a good position for work. Or am I just completely off base?

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Of course I am not going to share something so hurtful. In light of the repetitive insulting,  lack of any apology and your belief in the consequent-less nature of your postings....I wanted to ensure you at least one moment of stomach drop with the feigned threat . Anything we post here should be on the standard that the whole world may see or that you would say it again right to their face. Anonymous insulting is cowardly

Apologies for invading the "safe zone" of some unidentified, not present person with my harassing "trigger" posts.  Fact remains, if you're top 10% at NYU and can't find a job, you need to do some personal reflection. 

[keefe]

An officer and a gentlemen?

Not sure what your issue is? I was wondering if she drank her coffee tall, grande, or vente?

What's wrong with that?

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Just for my own clarification, I feel like law school rankings are a catch 22 which is why it's hard to move up. If you don't get good positions, you can't move up but if you don't go to a high ranking school you can't get a good position for work. Or am I just completely off base?

While you are reasonable to assume that law school rankings would be based on employment outcomes for students, you are incorrect in that assumption.  Law school rankings are based on a rather bizarre formula that accounts for some relevant things (e.g. admissions profile of students), some impossibly subjective criteria (e.g. peer/lawyer assessments), and some ridiculous elements (e.g. expenditures per student, library resources, etc).

[warriorchick]

Okay... no offense, but your client is feeding you a steaming pile of sh*t.  The market is bad, but it isn't that bad.  An honors NYU grad with connections in the oil and gas industry is not going to be struggling for job options at big firms.  You sure she didn't go to New York Law School?  Was she capable of stringing together words into complete sentences during OCI?

Maybe the law student is feeding her dad a steaming pile of crap about her grades. With FERPA and all, you never know.

[HouWarrior]

Not sure what your issue is? I was wondering if she drank her coffee tall, grande, or vente?

What's wrong with that?

lol
Officer, gentlemen And ...quick "spin doctor"  politician, too...you are the total package...you should run for something. lol

[keefe]

lol
Officer, gentlemen And ...quick "spin doctor"  politician, too...you are the total package...you should run for something. lol

Combat tested, Houston!