Aaron Hernandez arrested for murder, released by Patriots

[Otule's Glass Eye]

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/9424056/aaron-hernandez-new-england-patriots-charged-murder

ATTLEBORO, Mass. -- Aaron Hernandez has been charged with murdering his friend after the two had a dispute during a trip to a nightclub.

Hernandez was arrested Wednesday and charged with the first-degree murder of 27-year-old Odin Lloyd, a semipro football player whose body was found in an industrial park about a mile from the former New England Patriots tight end's home.

Hernandez, released by the Patriots less than two hours after his arrest, pleaded not guilty and has been ordered to be held without bail. He also faces five gun-related charges, which were revealed Wednesday afternoon in Attleboro District Court.

Lloyd's relatives said he was dating the sister of Hernandez's fiancée, that the two men were friends and that the men were out together on the last night of Lloyd's life. He was shot multiple times in the back and chest, authorities said.

In court, prosecutors described a killing borne out of a trip to a Boston nightclub on the night of June 14.

Hernandez and two friends picked up Lloyd at home at 2:30 a.m. on June 17, prosecutors said. Surveillance footage from Hernandez's home shows him leaving earlier with a gun. He also told someone in the house that he was upset and couldn't trust anyone anymore, prosecutors said.

After picking up Lloyd, Hernandez said he was upset with Lloyd because Lloyd had spoken with people Hernandez had trouble with during their outing to the nightclub, prosecutors said.

After that conversation, Lloyd texted his sister, "Did you see who I am with," prosecutors said. When his sister asked who, he answered at 3:22 a.m., "NFL," then, a minute later, "Just so you know," prosecutors said.

Between 3:23 a.m. and 3:27 a.m., people working the overnight shift at the industrial park reported hearing gunshots, authorities said.

It's not clear who investigators believe fired the shots.

Hernandez's attorney, Michael Fee, asked for bail, saying Hernandez is not a flight risk, is a homeowner and lives with his fiancée and their 8-month-old baby. He also said Hernandez never had been accused of a violent crime.

"It is, at bottom, a circumstantial case. It is not a strong case," Fee said.

Hernandez was wearing a white V-neck T-shirt with his arms inside the shirt and behind his back as he was led from his sprawling North Attleborough home at approximately 8:45 a.m. Wednesday. He casually spit into some bushes on his way to a police cruiser.

At about 10:20 a.m. Wednesday morning, the Patriots announced they had released Hernandez and expressed sympathy to Lloyd's family and friends.

"Words cannot express the disappointment we feel knowing that one of our players was arrested as a result of this investigation," the Patriots said in a statement. "We realize that law enforcement investigations into this matter are ongoing. We support their efforts and respect the process. At this time, we believe this transaction is simply the right thing to do."

The NFL also released a statement Wednesday, saying that Hernandez's arrest is "deeply troubling."

"The involvement of an NFL player in a case of this nature is deeply troubling," the league's statement said. "The Patriots have released Aaron Hernandez, who will have his day in court. At the same time, we should not forget the young man who was the victim in this case and take this opportunity to extend our deepest sympathy to Odin Lloyd's family and friends."

The Patriots drafted Hernandez, who is originally from Bristol, Conn., out of the University of Florida in 2010. Last summer, the team gave him a five-year contract worth $40 million.

Hernandez is one of 28 NFL players arrested since this year's Super Bowl on Feb. 3, according to a database kept by U-T San Diego.

[Groin_pull]

Man, the NFL is packed with thugs.

[keefe]

Man, the NFL is packed with thugs.

Unlike the NBA?

[NavinRJohnson]

Just heard today that 29 NFL players have been arrested since the end of last season.

[GGGG]

Unlike the NBA?

NBA has the rep...but the NFL has the rap sheet.

[Sunbelt15]

NBA has the rep...but the NFL has the rap sheet.

I like!

[keefe]

NBA has the rep...but the NFL has the rap sheet.

Clever. And true, sadly.

[Tugg Speedman]

Just heard today that 29 NFL players have been arrested since the end of last season.

That is about 1% of the league since the Super Bowl.  At that rate (5 months) the arrest rate of the NFL is about 2.4% a year.  The larger population has an arrest rate of 0.5%/year.  So, the NFL has an arrest rate about 500% that of the larger population.

Keep this in mind the next time you hear a commentator/NFL apologist say the NFL "reflects the problems of society."  No, the NFL is a bunch of millionaires getting arrested at 500% the national average.  The problems of the NFL is orders of magatitude worse than society.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Plenty of arrests in both sports, but of course there are many more NFL players than NBA players so that will influence the numbers. 

[keefe]

That is about 1% of the league since the Super Bowl.  At that rate (5 months) the arrest rate of the NFL is about 2.4% a year.  The larger population has an arrest rate of 0.5%/year.  So, the NFL has an arrest rate about 500% that of the larger population.

Keep this in mind the next time you hear a commentator/NFL apologist say the NFL "reflects the problems of society."  No, the NFL is a bunch of millionaires getting arrested at 500% the national average.  The problems of the NFL is orders of magatitude worse than society.

Not to be argumentative but to make it fair one would need to limit the comparative sample to males 20-35. If one were to weight by ethnicity I would think the delta would be fairly tight.

[warriorchick]

Hernandez and two friends picked up Lloyd at home at 2:30 a.m. on June 17, prosecutors said

Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but seriously, who leaves their house at 2:30 in the morning to go clubbing? On a Monday morning?  

As the saying goes, nothing good happens after Midnight.

The only time I left my own home at 2:30 a.m. was when I was having contractions ten minutes apart.

[Golden Avalanche]

Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but seriously, who leaves their house at 2:30 in the morning to go clubbing? On a Monday morning?  

People who don't live the life you do.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but seriously, who leaves their house at 2:30 in the morning to go clubbing? On a Monday morning?  

As the saying goes, nothing good happens after Midnight.

The only time I left my own home at 2:30 a.m. was when I was having contractions ten minutes apart.

Especially in Boston, where the bars close at 1 most nights and SOME places 2 on weekends.

[keefe]

Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but seriously, who leaves their house at 2:30 in the morning to go clubbing? On a Monday morning?  

As the saying goes, nothing good happens after Midnight.

The only time I left my own home at 2:30 a.m. was when I was having contractions ten minutes apart.

I have done a lot of O Dark Thirties in my time. My wife always wondered what was so important about 0300 that the USAF forced pilots to get out of bed at that time. Not that she cared about my sleep, mind you. It was that my wake up routine fractured her sleep.

[warriorchick]

I have done a lot of O Dark Thirties in my time. My wife always wondered what was so important about 0300 that the USAF forced pilots to get out of bed at that time. Not that she cared about my sleep, mind you. It was that my wake up routine fractured her sleep.

But was it to go to work or to party?

[keefe]

But was it to go to work or to party?

Man, I loved being a barrel chested freedom fighter flying fast jets in defense of a grateful, if imperiled, nation. I couldn't believe they paid us. But yea, it was to be a responsible, contributing member of an advanced civilization.

[warriorchick]

Man, I loved being a barrel chested freedom fighter flying fast jets in defense of a grateful, if imperiled, nation. I couldn't believe they paid us. But yea, it was to be a responsible, contributing member of an advanced civilization.

No sexy pic of Mrs. Keefe painted on the side?

[keefe]

No sexy pic of Mrs. Keefe painted on the side?

Please. She was a nice, dignified Midwestern Catholic girl who went to Marquette. She had phenomenal gams but she would have skinned me alive if I had her half-nekkid image on the jet.

Besides, our squadron had to have the shark's teeth nose art paint scheme by tradition. The Unit flew P 40's then P 47's in WWII so the USAF Heraldry Office dictated we earned the right to carry on that custom. We were proud to do so.

[martyconlonontherun]

Unlike the NBA?

Unlike college basketball?

There's more thugs in college. They just have less money and publicity.

[martyconlonontherun]

Just heard today that 29 NFL players have been arrested since the end of last season.

That comes out to about 1% of players. Considering it is a group of young males who just received a lot of money and have a job that requires high intensity, I consider that pretty low.

ETA some of you guys hit on this already I guess. Also, if you break it down to more controversial demographics, I bet its lower than average.

[77ncaachamps]

A buddy posted this on FB. Spit my drink out.

[LloydMooresLegs]

That comes out to about 1% of players. Considering it is a group of young males who just received a lot of money and have a job that requires high intensity, I consider that pretty low.

ETA some of you guys hit on this already I guess. Also, if you break it down to more controversial demographics, I bet its lower than average.

But if you break down the demographic by socio-economics, the NFL arrest rate is off the charts out of whack with the rest of the comparably finanially situated.  We can cut the stats in all sorts of ways to get to the result we want to achieve.

[Tugg Speedman]

But if you break down the demographic by socio-economics, the NFL arrest rate is off the charts out of whack with the rest of the comparably finanially situated.  We can cut the stats in all sorts of ways to get to the result we want to achieve.

+1

Look at the NFL arrest rate versus all adult males that report income of more than $500k/year and the NFL's arrest rate so far above it you will think it is an error.

The NFL has a big image problem.  Their players are thugs and animals and when they are not attacking each other on the field, they are attacking the public at large in the street during the off-season.

[StillAWarrior]

The NFL has a big image problem.  Their players are thugs and animals and when they are not attacking each other on the field, they are attacking the public at large in the street during the off-season.

I'm not sure whether I agree with your basic point or not, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind that 99% of their players are not getting into trouble.  Also, of those 27 arrests, it appears that about 18 of them are non-violent offenses.  So...perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole a bit.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not sure whether I agree with your basic point or not, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind that 99% of their players are not getting into trouble.  Also, of those 27 arrests, it appears that about 18 of them are non-violent offenses.  So...perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole a bit.

In case anyone wants to look up some of these offenses.

http://www.utsandiego.com/nfl/arrests-database/

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm not sure whether I agree with your basic point or not, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind that 99% of their players are not getting into trouble.  Also, of those 27 arrests, it appears that about 18 of them are non-violent offenses.  So...perhaps you could tone down the hyperbole a bit.

The off-season is not over ... and Hernandez is even the only NFL player arrested on murder or attempted murder charges this week!  Auscar Walcott, cut by the Browns on May 13, was arrested the day before on attempted murder charges in Northern New Jersey.

[StillAWarrior]

The off-season is not over ... and Hernandez is even the only NFL player arrested on murder or attempted murder charges this week!  Auscar Walcott, cut by the Browns on May 13, was arrested the day before on attempted murder charges in Northern New Jersey.

I don't dispute that, at all.  In fact, simple reading comprehension clearly reveals that my statement that 18 of the arrests were for non-violent offenses, implies that 9 of the arrests were for violent offenses.

It's just the ""their players are thugs and animals and when they are not attacking each other on the field, they are attacking the public at large in the street..." is a bit over the top.  Unless, of course, you're comfortable using general words like "they" (as opposed to "some of them") to refer to a very small minority (albeit an arguably statistically significant minority).

It's certainly dramatic, I'll give you that.  And since that's what you were going for, you're probably good with it.

[Tugg Speedman]

I don't dispute that, at all.  In fact, simple reading comprehension clearly reveals that my statement that 18 of the arrests were for non-violent offenses, implies that 9 of the arrests were for violent offenses.

It's just the ""their players are thugs and animals and when they are not attacking each other on the field, they are attacking the public at large in the street..." is a bit over the top.  Unless, of course, you're comfortable using general words like "they" (as opposed to "some of them") to refer to a very small minority (albeit an arguably statistically significant minority).

It's certainly dramatic, I'll give you that.  And since that's what you were going for, you're probably good with it.

Like I said before, go look at the arrest records of adult males than make over $500k/year (or $1 million/year) and compare it to the NFL (a sub-group of adult males that also make over $500k/year).  The NFL is not a reflection of societies problems, they are far worse.  So the "they" seems appropriate.

And yes, I was going for the dramatic with my statements above, glad you noticed.

[MerrittsMustache]

Like I said before, go look at the arrest records of adult makes than make over $500k/year (or $1 million/year) and compare it to the NFL (a sub-group of adult makes than also make over $500k/year).  The NFL is not a reflection of societies problems, they are far worse.  So the "they" seem appropriate.

And yes, I was going for the dramatic with my statements above, glad you noticed.

What about the arrest records of adult males who make over $500k/year and are between the ages of 21-30?

[StillAWarrior]

Like I said before, go look at the arrest records of adult males than make over $500k/year (or $1 million/year) and compare it to the NFL (a sub-group of adult males that also make over $500k/year).  The NFL is not a reflection of societies problems, they are far worse.  So the "they" seems appropriate.

And yes, I was going for the dramatic with my statements above, glad you noticed.

Noted.  Drama over accuracy.

[Tugg Speedman]

Noted.  Drama over accuracy.

Dramatically explaining accurate facts.

[StillAWarrior]

Dramatically explaining accurate facts.

No, you're not.  When 1/3 of one percent of a group (i.e., .33% or .0033) has been arrested for violent acts, a statement that the entire group is  thugs and animals that are attacking the public on the street is not accurate.  Dramatic?  Sure.  And, as you've admitted, that's what you were going for.  Well done.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Double murder.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/27/report-aaron-hernandez-under-investigation-in-2012-boston-double-murder/

[Tugg Speedman]

No, you're not.  When 1/3 of one percent of a group (i.e., .33% or .0033) has been arrested for violent acts, a statement that the entire group is  thugs and animals that are attacking the public on the street is not accurate.  Dramatic?  Sure.  And, as you've admitted, that's what you were going for.  Well done.

Calling NFL players Thugs and Animals is inaccurate?

[StillAWarrior]

Calling NFL players Thugs and Animals is inaccurate?

Yes.  As a group?  Definitely.  I can think of far more who do not fit that description than who do.

I assume you're comfortable calling Buzz's recruits rapists?  (I'm not, but dramatic overstatement seems to be your thing today.)  Under your theory, "they" are, you know...thugs and animals...when they're not playing basketball, they're raping women. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Calling NFL players Thugs and Animals is inaccurate?

Too broad a brush.  We work with many of these athletes and they are terrific people.  Aikman, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, etc, etc.  Some solid people.  No question some are not or make poor choices. 

[Pakuni]

What about the arrest records of adult males who make over $500k/year and are between the ages of 21-30?

Wait, are you suggesting that NFL players aren't a good demographic match with CEOs in their 50s?
But, but, but .... they both make lots of money!
Factors like age, education, environment, socio-economic background are so, like, totally overrated.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Too broad a brush.  We work with many of these athletes and they are terrific people.  Aikman, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, etc, etc.  Some solid people.  No question some are not or make poor choices. 

Couldn't you have at least thrown one non-traditional in there?   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Couldn't you have at least thrown one non-traditional in there?   

Why do you guys keep using traditional in the form of a race comment?  Why is race always on some of your minds?  Race consumes way too many people and invariably drives some people to look for something (a slight, or whatever) that isn't there.  I don't get it.  That's not what I said years ago when I said traditional on this board and even included Wes Matthews as one my examples.  Funny how things take off and run around here.


To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

[Pakuni]

To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

I think people raise the "traditional" label to poke fun, Chico's, not because they think you are, or they themselves are, obsessed with race.

That said, it's odd to suggest that "we never look at race," but then discuss marketability, Q scores, etc., as if race isn't a factor in those.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Why do you guys keep using traditional in the form of a race comment?  Why is race always on some of your minds?  Race consumes way too many people and invariably drives some people to look for something (a slight, or whatever) that isn't there.  I don't get it.  That's not what I said years ago when I said traditional on this board and even included Wes Matthews as one my examples.  Funny how things take off and run around here.

To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

I am poking fun at you.  no offense.

[martyconlonontherun]

Wait, are you suggesting that NFL players aren't a good demographic match with CEOs in their 50s?
But, but, but .... they both make lots of money!
Factors like age, education, environment, socio-economic background are so, like, totally overrated.

I think that's what I was getting at earlier. I would think born into a high-income class with better education is very different than being poor in bad areas with friends from bad areas who suddenly have millions of dollars.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Why do you guys keep using traditional in the form of a race comment?  Why is race always on some of your minds?  Race consumes way too many people and invariably drives some people to look for something (a slight, or whatever) that isn't there.  I don't get it.  That's not what I said years ago when I said traditional on this board and even included Wes Matthews as one my examples.  Funny how things take off and run around here.


To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

Agree 100%.....met Drew Brees and Marques Colston in the middle of May this year on Bourbon Street at a bar at 2 in the afternoon.....both of them the nicest guys in the world.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

Hernandez now also being investigated for possible involvement in a triple shooting, with two being killed, in July of last year.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think that's what I was getting at earlier. I would think born into a high-income class with better education is very different than being poor in bad areas with friends from bad areas who suddenly have millions of dollars.

So all those that excuse crime in poor areas because it comes from a lack of money and opportunity are wrong?  Are you saying the rate of crime is a cultural thing?  That many of these players come from a culture that finds violent crime acceptable? 

If that is what you're saying, I agree.  And that is why the NFL has a big problem.  Too many of their players think violent crime is acceptable and no amount of money changes that view.

Restated in a simple form ... the NFL is full of thugs and animals.

[Tugg Speedman]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/patriots-conduct-aaron-hernandez-jersey-exchange-july-6-193511953.html

By Brian McIntyre | Shutdown Corner – Fri, Jun 28, 2013 3:35 PM EDT


Shortly after parting ways with tight end Aaron Hernandez on Wednesday, the New England Patriots stopped offering his No. 81 jersey for sale on their website as well as their team store at Gillette Stadium.

On Friday, the Patriots announced that fans who have purchased a No. 81 jersey — from either Reebok or Nike — from the team's store or through the team's website will have a two-day window to exchange the jersey for a new, in-stock Patriots jersey of comparable value.

"We know that children love wearing their Patriots jerseys, but may not understand why parents don’t want them wearing their Hernandez jerseys anymore," said Patriots spokesperson Stacey James. "We hope this opportunity to exchange those jerseys at the Patriots ProShop for another player’s jersey will be well received by parents."

The free jersey exchange will be available exclusively at the Patriots ProShop from 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. ET on Saturday, July 6 and from 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. ET on Sunday, July 7.

Many have applauded the team's decision to release Hernandez, a move that potentially hinders their attempt to recoup the $12.5 million signing bonus Hernandez received from the team last August. Surely many more, including parents who have recently purchased a No. 81 jersey for their child, will applaud the team's decision to replace those jerseys. The praise is deserved as the Patriots continue to show through their actions that there are more important things than their own bottom line.

[keefe]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/aaron-hernandez-first-degree-murder-gun-charges--bill-belichick-robert-kraft-should-have-known-better-062613

Jason Whitlock says Kraft and Belichick culpable

[Tugg Speedman]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/aaron-hernandez-first-degree-murder-gun-charges--bill-belichick-robert-kraft-should-have-known-better-062613

Jason Whitlock says Kraft and Belichick culpable

I normally disagree with Whitlock but this time he is largely correct.  From the article:

The Baltimore Ravens stood by Ray Lewis when he was charged with murder and eventually pled guilty to obstruction of justice. OK, Lewis is one of the greatest players in NFL history. Hernandez isn’t on Ray’s level.

But the Patriots’ quick surrender is enlightening. This is professional football. Jerry Jones has employed a team of babysitters to keep Dez Bryant out of trouble. Josh Brent was on the Cowboys’ sideline shortly after his drunken driving killed a teammate. The Kansas City Chiefs honored Jovan Belcher by hanging his jersey in his undisturbed locker 36 hours after Belcher murdered his girlfriend/baby’s mama and killed himself in front of the team’s general manager, head coach and defensive coordinator.

Football has a high threshold for tolerating and rationalizing depravity and violence.

Typical year for the NFL, four murders plus a dead teammate and suicide.  How much more carnage will occur before training camp opens?

[forgetful]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/aaron-hernandez-first-degree-murder-gun-charges--bill-belichick-robert-kraft-should-have-known-better-062613

Jason Whitlock says Kraft and Belichick culpable

Interesting that some would say that Kraft and Belichick are culpable and that the NFL culture is broken.  Yet in big business CEO's are paid millions to be as shady as possible (provided they don't get caught) to ensure success of their business.  That includes, Fraud, theft....and it is all ok, because it is all part of the accepted culture.  At least the NFL players eventually go to jail for their crimes.

[GGGG]

I normally disagree with Whitlock but this time he is largely correct.  From the article:

The Baltimore Ravens stood by Ray Lewis when he was charged with murder and eventually pled guilty to obstruction of justice. OK, Lewis is one of the greatest players in NFL history. Hernandez isn’t on Ray’s level.

But the Patriots’ quick surrender is enlightening. This is professional football. Jerry Jones has employed a team of babysitters to keep Dez Bryant out of trouble. Josh Brent was on the Cowboys’ sideline shortly after his drunken driving killed a teammate. The Kansas City Chiefs honored Jovan Belcher by hanging his jersey in his undisturbed locker 36 hours after Belcher murdered his girlfriend/baby’s mama and killed himself in front of the team’s general manager, head coach and defensive coordinator.

Football has a high threshold for tolerating and rationalizing depravity and violence.

Typical year for the NFL, four murders plus a dead teammate and suicide.  How much more carnage will occur before training camp opens?

You sound gleeful.

[keefe]

Interesting that some would say that Kraft and Belichick are culpable and that the NFL culture is broken.  Yet in big business CEO's are paid millions to be as shady as possible (provided they don't get caught) to ensure success of their business.  That includes, Fraud, theft....and it is all ok, because it is all part of the accepted culture.  At least the NFL players eventually go to jail for their crimes.

There have been some horrible cases of executive fraud but I think the salient fact is that these idiots always get caught. If companies have the necessary controls in place then it is impossible for illicit behavior to continue for long. Fraud has been happening since the collapse of Medici Bank and the South Sea Bubble for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to prison. Companies like Enron, Tyco, Texaco, Polly Peck, WorldCom, Adelphia, Chiquita, Bre-X, Bayou, Rover, Refco, Barings, and Nortel played games with compensation, debt, earnings, etc...and were eventually caught. In every case senior executives went to prison.

[forgetful]

There have been some horrible cases of executive fraud but I think the salient fact is that these idiots always get caught. If companies have the necessary controls in place then it is impossible for illicit behavior to continue for long. Fraud has been happening since the collapse of Medici Bank and the South Sea Bubble for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to prison. Companies like Enron, Tyco, Texaco, Polly Peck, WorldCom, Adelphia, Chiquita, Bre-X, Bayou, Rover, Refco, Barings, and Nortel played games with compensation, debt, earnings, etc...and were eventually caught. In every case senior executives went to prison.

Your referring to situations where it is caught, much of the fraud/theft are considered typical business behavior, i.e. stealing patent rights by burying mom-and-pop establishments in legal paperwork. 

Fraud by drug companies, i.e. Abbot, GSK, J&J, Amgen (those are just ones that have been caught recently), where the punishment was not jail-time from anyone, or as the law dictates that drug companies committing fraud cannot receive govt' money, instead they paid fines (less than the amount they gained through the fraud) by subsidiary companies (avoiding extreme punishment of no medicare/medicaid dollars).

Admitted lying to gain advantages (Romney told individuals to lie and tell whatever they needed to do to get inside information for Bain). 

Many large institutions successes have hinged on corporate espionage, lying/cheating/stealing to gain advantages or other actions that an average person would say is morally and ethically corrupt (and in many minds should be illegal), however in business they are applauded and considered good business, the difference is they wrote the laws to benefit them and admittedly the big boys all play by the same set of rules, but controlling the laws does not make an action just...its part of culture.

Just as violent crime is part of the culture that most of these individuals live in.  Morals/Righteousness are in the eyes of the beholder.

[keefe]

Your referring to situations where it is caught, much of the fraud/theft are considered typical business behavior, i.e. stealing patent rights by burying mom-and-pop establishments in legal paperwork.  

Fraud by drug companies, i.e. Abbot, GSK, J&J, Amgen (those are just ones that have been caught recently), where the punishment was not jail-time from anyone, or as the law dictates that drug companies committing fraud cannot receive govt' money, instead they paid fines (less than the amount they gained through the fraud) by subsidiary companies (avoiding extreme punishment of no medicare/medicaid dollars).

Admitted lying to gain advantages (Romney told individuals to lie and tell whatever they needed to do to get inside information for Bain).  

Many large institutions successes have hinged on corporate espionage, lying/cheating/stealing to gain advantages or other actions that an average person would say is morally and ethically corrupt (and in many minds should be illegal), however in business they are applauded and considered good business, the difference is they wrote the laws to benefit them and admittedly the big boys all play by the same set of rules, but controlling the laws does not make an action just...its part of culture.

Just as violent crime is part of the culture that most of these individuals live in.  Morals/Righteousness are in the eyes of the beholder.

I worked for exceptional corporations that were managed aggressively and were must haves in any stock portfolio. These enterprises had ethical standards that were meticulously composed and scrupulously enforced. I know that each corporation had zero tolerance for contraventions of legal, moral, and ethical covenants.

Let me frame an actual case and ask your thoughts. A FMCG Multi National Corporation (MNC) wants to improve performance in logistics so it identifies and hires away a key employee from a company focused in that vertical. The MNC offers significantly more in total compensation, far beyond the logistics industry scale. The defection of this employee will have a significant negative impact on his current employer.

Is hiring away expertise from a competitor or potential competitor to gain strategic advantage unethical?

[forgetful]

I worked for exceptional corporations that were managed aggressively and were must haves in any stock portfolio. These enterprises had ethical standards that were meticulously composed and scrupulously enforced. I know that each corporation had zero tolerance for contraventions of legal, moral, and ethical covenants.

Let me frame an actual case and ask your thoughts. A FMCG Multi National Corporation (MNC) wants to improve performance in logistics so it identifies and hires away a key employee from a company focused in that vertical. The MNC offers significantly more in total compensation, far beyond the logistics industry scale. The defection of this employee will have a significant negative impact on his current employer.

Is hiring away expertise from a competitor or potential competitor to gain strategic advantage unethical?

Hmm, I have this nagging suspicion that I am walking into some sort of trap.  So we are dealing with an FMCG corp, meaning improvement in logistics will likely have a substantial impact on the bottom line.  In that regards, hiring an expert would be a logical maneuver to gain a strategic advantage and one that I would say is perfectly ethical.  The potential issue in this case is the fact that you indicate the compensation offered is far beyond the logistics industry scale...troublesome, yes, unethical I'll still go with a no.

[keefe]

Hmm, I have this nagging suspicion that I am walking into some sort of trap.  So we are dealing with an FMCG corp, meaning improvement in logistics will likely have a substantial impact on the bottom line.  In that regards, hiring an expert would be a logical maneuver to gain a strategic advantage and one that I would say is perfectly ethical.  The potential issue in this case is the fact that you indicate the compensation offered is far beyond the logistics industry scale...troublesome, yes, unethical I'll still go with a no.

It is perfectly ethical. Even though the point of the hire is to acquire the trade secrets of the competitor. Logistics should not exceed 2% COGS; if it does then you are doing something terribly wrong. But if you can gain other efficiencies through superior supply chain management you realize significant competitive advantage in the marketplace.

The irony is that if you hire Watergate-style plumbers to break into a competitors' physical plant or induce an employee to sneak out confidential information then you are in violation of both the Spirit and Intent of PepsiCo's Ethical Behavior guidelines.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Interesting that some would say that Kraft and Belichick are culpable and that the NFL culture is broken.  Yet in big business CEO's are paid millions to be as shady as possible (provided they don't get caught) to ensure success of their business.  That includes, Fraud, theft....and it is all ok, because it is all part of the accepted culture.  At least the NFL players eventually go to jail for their crimes.

First of all, there are hundreds of thousands of CEOs in this country that aren't paid $1 million, let alone millions.

For the others, that are heads of major corporations, shady is hardly the word I would use.  There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers, head coaches, etc.   You look for what the rules allow and if you're good, you leverage those rules to the hilt.  Some here would say if you aren't pushing the envelope to its limit from a basketball perspective, you aren't trying to win.  The same is true in business.

[keefe]

Some here would say if you aren't pushing the envelope to its limit from a basketball perspective, you aren't trying to win. 

Alright, what the f#ck are you suggesting about Buzz???

[ChicosBailBonds]

Alright, what the f#ck are you suggesting about Buzz???

I would say the same thing about TC and any successful coach, any successful accountant, any successful FILL IN THE BLANK

[keefe]

I would say the same thing about TC and any successful coach, any successful accountant, any successful FILL IN THE BLANK

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

[ATL MU Warrior]

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

Note, however, that there are no bad apples on the IU basketball team.  Obviously.

[4everwarriors]

Yeah well, that's why Too Tan Tommy got rid of the cat who tossed the plant at his coconut.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You must think me a fool. Your statement was a slam against the players Buzz has recruited...


"There are bad apples, just as there are bad apples in gov't, on the MU basketball team, preschool teachers..."

What the hell issue do you have with Buzz Williams? It is strange, really. All the more so given how you so vigorously defend that jackass Crean. Bizarre beyond words.

   WOW

Let me phrase it so ATL, YOU and everyone can get it.  There are bad apples in gov't, preschool teachers, MU Basketball team, ETC (IU basketball team, Sisters of the poor basketball team, the Salvation Army, Flo's Diner, the St. Irenaeus 8th grade girls cheerleading squad, ETC, ETC)

I figured when I said gov't, preschool teachers, MU hoops, ETC that you guys would understand I was giving examples that there are bad apples everywhere.

Some of you awfully slow on the uptake the last few days.

[mu-rara]

Why do you guys keep using traditional in the form of a race comment?  Why is race always on some of your minds?  Race consumes way too many people and invariably drives some people to look for something (a slight, or whatever) that isn't there.  I don't get it.  That's not what I said years ago when I said traditional on this board and even included Wes Matthews as one my examples.  Funny how things take off and run around here.


To address your point, we work with NFL athletes across the spectrum over the years.  Deion Sanders, Mannings, Emmit Smith, Aikman, Darren Woodson....we never look at race.  We look at marketability, Q scores, if there are any background issues (Michael Vick was not going to be one of our spokespersons but neither was Ryan Leaf), etc. 

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

[keefe]

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

The greatness of an institution is often measured by the richness and intensity of expression in its traditions. One should never forget from whence one has come.

Basketball Traditions

[ChicosBailBonds]

Didn't you define "traditional" (the Scoop definition) a few years ago?

I did, and it had nothing to do with race.  Of course Ners and a few others decided to define it as such.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288379#msg288379

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288380#msg288380

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288390#msg288390

[keefe]

I did, and it had nothing to do with race.  Of course Ners and a few others decided to define it as such.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288379#msg288379

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288380#msg288380

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25817.msg288390#msg288390

Chico,

All these links demonstrate is the furious back pedaling you did after it became clear your use of the term "Traditional" was code for Caucasian. Your attempt at revisionism is disturbing, actually.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico,

All these links demonstrate is the furious back pedaling you did after it became clear your use of the term "Traditional" was code for Caucasian. Your attempt at revisionism is disturbing, actually.

BS Keefe \ Warthog.  I've given you the links.  I explained what traditional meant from day one and several of you took it way out there into the obscure and ran with it.  In fact, when the very first person did that I immediately stated how wrong that interpretation was.  Someone who can shoot the ball, handle the ball, high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, etc.  Steve Novak, Wes Matthews, Travis Diener, Jae Crowder, etc. 

You are one of the ones that keeps pushing this, like here:  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35404.msg437800#msg437800

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35053.msg431739#msg431739

[keefe]

BS Keefe \ Warthog.  I've given you the links.  I explained what traditional meant from day one and several of you took it way out there into the obscure and ran with it.  In fact, when the very first person did that I immediately stated how wrong that interpretation was.  Someone who can shoot the ball, handle the ball, high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, etc.  Steve Novak, Wes Matthews, Travis Diener, Jae Crowder, etc. 

You are one of the ones that keeps pushing this, like here:  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35404.msg437800#msg437800

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35053.msg431739#msg431739

Once again, I was merely taking the piss out of you on the whole "traditional" concept.