Vaccine/Antibody updates

[Pakuni]

At the risk of kicking a hornets nest.  Wondering why there is so much negativity towards ivermectin.  Admittedly I have no opinion on it and hadn’t heard about it til seeing it on Scoop but there seems to be enough positive data to at least study further??

The guy who developed the use ignition humans won the Nobel Prize for crying out loud and the use of it has been credited with saving millions of lives.  Who knows what the real world benefits are as it relates to C19 but to cast it off as simply horse dewormer seems like a waste of an opportunity.

https://academic.oup.com/ofid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ofid/ofab358/6316214

1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.

2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.

3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.

https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus

4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.

https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765

[pbiflyer]

But other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

[pacearrow02]

1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.

2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.

3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.

https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus

4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.

https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765

I’m not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid.  But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there’s even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into.  🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!

[Pakuni]

I’m not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid.  But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there’s even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into.  🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!

It should be looked into, as with any other potential treatment.
But the negativity surrounding the use of the version intended for deworming livestock is justified. People who do so are dumb, and - as with much in this pandemic - being led down a dangerous path by people who know better.

[tower912]

Literally hundreds of calls to poison control.   People pooping out their intestinal lining because they trust their facebook feed more than science.    Willful stupidity.

[forgetful]

I’m not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid.  But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there’s even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into.  🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!

As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.

So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.

We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I’m not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid.  But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there’s even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into.  🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!

Pace, do you get tired of getting dunked on every time you come here?

[jesmu84]

What happened to HCQ? Why is ivermectin the new hotness?

[tower912]

Contrariness.   Conscious choice.  Choosing facebook over facts.

[pbiflyer]

Literally hundreds of calls to poison control.   People pooping out their intestinal lining because they trust their facebook feed more than science.    Willful stupidity.

I’m beginning to be pro Ivermectin. Darwin at work.

Patients overdosing on ivermectin backing up rural Oklahoma hospitals, ambulances

https://kfor.com/news/local/patients-overdosing-on-ivermectin-backing-up-rural-oklahoma-hospitals-ambulances/

[pacearrow02]

As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.

So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.

We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.

Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans?  I’m certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.

And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it?  I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don’t think it’s that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied. 

[pacearrow02]

Pace, do you get tired of getting dunked on every time you come here?

Pakuni and I finally agree on something and you think that’s me getting dunked on?  I simply asked why so much hatred for it.  Asked a few questions, got the answers but they were all with the caveat that it should still be studied.  I wouldn’t call that getting dunked on.

[pbiflyer]

Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans?  I’m certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.

And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it?  I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don’t think it’s that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied.

The guy who invented the drug says that levels for human treatment don’t help with Covid. And since anti vaxxers are conservative, er, stupid, they ignore safety protocols.
Stupid people advocate an unproven drug to cure Covid, while ignoring a tested proven preventative measure, killing other stupid people, but more importantly, take resources from responsible people that need them.

Which group do you fall in?

[pacearrow02]

The guy who invented the drug says that levels for human treatment don’t help with Covid. And since anti vaxxers are conservative, er, stupid, they ignore safety protocols.
Stupid people advocate an unproven drug to cure Covid, while ignoring a tested proven preventative measure, killing other stupid people, but more importantly, take resources from responsible people that need them.

Which group do you fall in?

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/SUMMARY-OF-THE-EVIDENCE-BASE-FINAL.pdf

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/90552

I’m in the group that reads things like these above articles (especially the second link) and think hell maybe these guys are right and maybe ignorantly or out of naivety get hopeful it might actually work.  I don’t disregard things just got Don Lemon tells me to. 

I’ve been long ago vaccinated so 🤞I’ll never have to worry about the idea of taking a treatment cocktail for Covid but I’m hopeful for continued progress on therapeutics etc so we can stop seeing the equivalent of 3 Pearl Harbors worth of American deaths every week. 

[forgetful]

Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans?  I’m certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.

And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it?  I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don’t think it’s that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied.

It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.

The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.

Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.

Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.

But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.

If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.

[pacearrow02]

It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.

The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.

Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.

Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.

But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.

If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.

The link I posted acknowledged and agreed about that one study from Egypt I believe getting retracted.  But they said that was 1 of 28 in the meta analysis they performed which didn’t change their opinion on the overall potential of it? 

I don’t have a ton of time to read about this stuff and like I said I just heard about this drug within the last week.  I’ve read quite a few studies with some showing promising results with others not showing much affect at all but none of them raised safety concerns or crazy adverse events with taking it.  Obviously taking any medication outside the guidance and watch of a doctor is insane so the people taking horse pills is an example of Darwinism at it’s finest as a previous poster suggested.

[pacearrow02]

It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.

The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.

Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.

Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.

But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.

If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.

You’re also way underestimating how often this is prescribed and at what dosage levels.  CDC requires it for anyone coming in from different parts of the world.

https://mobile.twitter.com/drdrew/status/1433963943756636168/photo/1

[jesmu84]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

[pacearrow02]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Haha

[JWags85]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Hopefully human crazy pills and not bovine

[lawdog77]

1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.

2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.

3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.

https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus

4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.

https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765

Another article: You are not a horse
https://www.spencereveningworld.com/story/news/health/2021/08/23/covid-warning-treatment-ivermectin-fda-mississippi/8244302002/

[TSmith34, Inc.]

As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.

So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.

We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.

Very reasonable answer to a very unreasonable troll. He knows there have been studies and continue to be studies. Disingenuous trolls will do what they do.

[pacearrow02]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1434342610039095297

Amazing

[pacearrow02]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/us/coronavirus-booster-shots.html?partner=slack&smid=sl-share

Blind leading the blind.

[MUDPT]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1434342610039095297

Amazing

That quote raised alarm bells for me right away.  How many gun shot victims are there in Oklahoma?  Ivermectin still sucks for COVID though.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/ivermectin-covid-study-suspect-data

https://gidmk.medium.com/is-ivermectin-for-covid-19-based-on-fraudulent-research-part-3-5066aa6819b3