Kolek planning to go pro
I trimmed a lot for relevance, but I used 2013 and 2014 to reference a very specific time. That specific time was November 2013, when the new Big East started.As you mention, Villanova had pedestrian results the three years leading into that and there was debate from fans if Jay Wright was the right guy or if he should go (similar to the discussion we've been having for 3 years). So in November 2013, their program was, from the outside, not seen on the stable footing that was later revealed by the results since then.Also in November 2013, we not only had the perceived top team in the Big East, we had the #1 freshman class in the league in 2013 and already had commitments from Sandy Cohen, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Satchel Pierce for 2014.We didn't know Buzz would lay an egg, that it would be his last year, that we would lose most of the 2013 and 2014 classes before their eligibility was exhausted, nor that Wojo would be the person tasked with taking the program largely into the new league. We didn't know what Villanova would do, and it is largely irrelevant to the world as it was in November 2013.At the end of the day, we obviously didn't get where we all wish we could've gone, but the idea that Villanova's ascendancy to near-blue blood status was attainable for them and (as a couple on here insinuate) was never realistic for us flies in the face of where the respective programs stood when this new league kicked off. There's no reason the things that happened at Villanova couldn't have happened here. They also could've happened at Georgetown had things broken differently. Any of those three programs had the historic pedigree, the recruiting in place, and the coaching longevity to imagine that had things went right, they could be sitting where Villanova is today. I would argue that in order of most likely, it would've been 1-Marquette, 2-Georgetown, 3-Villanova.
Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold. He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes.
Why are you not including what Jay Wright did prior to those 3 years (which were 2 NCAA's) ? They were an additional Final Four, two Sweet 16's, and an Elite 8. He's had multiple different stretches of high level success.
Thank you for the detailed response. I'm not being facetious here, but let's say Wojo makes the tournament ten straight years and loses in the first round every time. Is his job safe as long as he gets there, regardless of his abysmal post season record?
TAMUI do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.
But I'm curious...who is that one coach? I feel like there are more than one in the past 20 years to get fired after a NCAA bid. Maybe some have off-court issues, but is it just Rick Barnes?
Because the three years prior matched the three years I focused on for Buzz. Because that's a like for like comparison. And it's the period of time when Villanova fans were having the same "fire Jay" conversations we've been having about Wojo for the past 2-3 years.I also mentioned this could've happened to Georgetown, but didn't dig back to JT3's Final Four either. As TAMU said, college basketball is a "what did you do for me lately" business, and when this league started, we were clearly atop that metric.
I don't agree here. Final Four, Elite 8, multiple Sweet 16's. "Fire Jay" after 2 out of 3 NCAA's? Nah. Not sure who you were speaking with at the time. And I've spent a little time around Villanova basketball. Again, 1 of those 3 years you chose, Buzz finished 9th in the league.
Barnes is the only one I know. A year or two ago I went back and found coaching carousel articles for every offseason going back to 2000-2001. The only non-blue blood firing I found after an NCAA appearance (without off the court issues) was Mr. Barnes.
Steve Lavin (not sure about off court) comes to mind. Edited to add Chris Mullin too.
I used to be on the ESPN boards back then. The Nova posters hated Jay at that time and wanted him gone. they had crappy seeds if they made it, on top of him losing control of the locker room in the 2010 tournament for a huge embarrassing loss after a final four, they had a poor looking trajectory.
Lavin and Mullin both “resigned” iirc
Respectfully, this message board/the two Marquette message boards, are a teeny, tiny representation of MU basketball fandom compared to real life, let alone a few posters on an ESPN message board. The vast majority of people aren’t on message boards.2010 Villanova 2 seed NCAA’s2009 Villanova 3 seed NCAA’s2006 Villanova 1 seed NCAA’s2005 Villanova 5 seed NCAA’sThe others were 9 seed. Final Four, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16’s.
FIFY
Mullin I get the quotes but not Lavin. They had no reason to protect his feelings or reputation.
First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.
“mutually agree to part ways”https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/steve-lavin-st-john-mutally-agreed-part-article-1.2164697
MU82I know you are asking Brew when Wojo could/should have been fired and I wanted to jump in on the conversation. I do not recall when I jumped off the Wojo train exactly but it definitely has not been recently. Several years ago I noted I did not think that Wojo was a gifted enough game coach to win without having real talent on the court. Some coaches can win with any kids because they built a system that works and I felt that was lacking.I remember TAMU noting that Wojo was running the Duke offense and I looked up the Duke offense on the internet. I remember thinking that offense must need to be run by 4 and 5 star players or Wojo did not learn the system very well during his nearly two decades in the program. I have said countless times on here but Wojo has looked like he was in over his head in this position. Sadly, I still feel the same way.Hope all is well in NC.
Well with that attitude I can write off anything till you've asked a majority of people lol. The fact is ive offered an example where it was vocal, posters on Holylandofhoops can back that testament up as I've asked about it publicly there. And I'm sure if you head to VUHoops.com you'll find old threads. Also the ESPN boards were bigger than you're crediting it for, there were thousands and thousands of posters and they needed to pay Facebook to moderate it.
Message boards are both inherently small sample size and, skew negative venting. Jay Wright went a couple of seasons getting 9 seeds in the NCAA’s instead of the previous 2,3,1,5 seeds. .....while Buzz was bookending his four ending seasons at MU, by getting an 11 seed and missing the NCAA’s. And we all of course remember Buzz’ time as successful. (Buzz had a top 5 NCAA seed twice at Marquette.)Then of course while overlapping the end of Buzz, Villanova went 2,1,2,1,1 NCAA seeds. (This is in addition to the previously mentioned 2,3,1,5 on the other prior end of Buzz.)Wojo has had a 5 seed and a 10 seed NCAA in 6 seasons.
I only popped in to back up brews claims about Nova fans advocating for firing Jay I don't know when you're repeating Wikipedia information on VUBB to me or comparing him to Buzz or Wojo. You know I didn't bring them up right?
I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
Agreed. All confidence will be lost if this team does not perform in the BET and NCAA this year from my perspective. I have no more long term (wait for recruits to come) goals. Those have passed. I have had patience. Wojo needs to start exceeding expectations this season and that expectation for me is the NCAA and a tournament win. If he doesn’t, he’s lost me and I’m a pretty big Projo. I really believe he has enough talent on this team to win. The conference is down. Now or never. I know they won’t fire him no matter what happens but my apathy will grow.
So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?