MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: DegenerateDish on February 16, 2024, 06:49:09 PM
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I figured I’d start this as it’s own thread for those interested in this topic.
I’ve mentioned in both the MLB & NFL threads about the showdown going on in Illinois between the Sox and Bears fight to utilize TIF funds of $500 Million.
White Sox have been moving quickly to win this fight against the Bears, and threw an interesting haymaker at the Bears late this afternoon. The $1 Billion proposal includes rolling the ISFA tax into the new Sox park plan, retiring the city’s obligation to pay off Soldier Field debt. Clearly would be a huge blow for the Bears to build in the city.
I’m not sure what Kevin Warren’s long game is here, with Arlington making too much sense. The least shocking thing was the Bears tax relief proposal in Arlington getting rejected. Long term, the property tax bill would be insignificant, they’d be printing money in Arlington. Warren & the Bears posturing here is dumbfounding. Even if (big if) they owned the south lot at Soldier Field, that would still be a nightmare to move the team for a year or two to construct, and then still be a tenant to the city.
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It kinda feels like this whole Kevin Warren thing has been a big dud for the Bears. Or is this continued interference by the family.
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It kinda feels like this whole Kevin Warren thing has been a big dud for the Bears. Or is this continued interference by the family.
The “day in the life” article on Kevin Warren (right around Christmas on the Bears site) was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read.
Considering the Bears bought Arlington before Warren was even hired, it’s hard to find anything of substance that he’s done during his Bears career.
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It kinda feels like this whole Kevin Warren thing has been a big dud for the Bears. Or is this continued interference by the family.
Ted Phillips was all in on Arlington. He considered closing the deal for the land his closing legacy.
Warren came in, and has either legitimately turned the team's attention to the city or wants everyone to think that as a ham-fisted negotiating ploy.
Either way, the thing I keep coming back to is that the Bears paid about 50% more for the Arlington Park property than the next highest bidder. Which may indicate they're in for a huge loss if they try to flip it. Are theMcCaskeys (most of whom live in the suburbs, btw) willing to walk away from that money?
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When I read of he current tax controversy with the Arlington Heights site, all I could think of was "Welcome to the Suburbs, Bears!"
Around Chicago, there are so many blood sucking school districts that I'm amazed at how real estate values could appreciate at all. In my old suburb, we had an $87 million surplus so the district did the one thing every competitive suburban school district should do -- build a $27 million swimming pool! In many communities, they'd rebate the surplus back to the property tax payers. But, NOT IN ILLINOIS!!!
The Bears ran into the school district tax problem big time and if they build a stadium, it will only get worse. The Bears know it, which is why they're shopping for a new home in the city. I'm not sure dealing with Mayor Brandon is a good idea but, who knows?
If I were the Bears, I'd start growing corn on the property and get an agriculture exemption. Or find some other permitted use that will tax exempt the property?
Ministry anyone?????? Be a nice tax deduction! Joel Osteen could move to Arlington Heights!
Years ago, when the Bears and R2D2 (Richard II, or the kid) were negotiating for the reconstruction of Soldier Field into a giant, obsolete toilet seat, the late Mikey McCaskey threatened to move the Bears to Buffington Harbor, IN (Gary, for all you uninformed, non-gamblers). I'm beginning to think the Bears wished they'd called R2D2s bluff and actually moved there!
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I hope the bears move out of the city. They struggle to fill the stadium and block out the calendar for more interesting things at Soldier Field for the whole fall to protect the grass.
The Sox should build a stadium on their own dime in the 78, which will give them a wonderful accessible urban stadium. Bridgeport will be happy to recoup those parking lots segregating their neighborhood.
Win win win
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Bears. Sox. Who cares.
I assume the Sox want a tax break to get the last few less-than-mediocre FAs on the market.
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When I read of he current tax controversy with the Arlington Heights site, all I could think of was "Welcome to the Suburbs, Bears!"
Around Chicago, there are so many blood sucking school districts that I'm amazed at how real estate values could appreciate at all. In my old suburb, we had an $87 million surplus so the district did the one thing every competitive suburban school district should do -- build a $27 million swimming pool! In many communities, they'd rebate the surplus back to the property tax payers. But, NOT IN ILLINOIS!!!
The Bears ran into the school district tax problem big time and if they build a stadium, it will only get worse. The Bears know it, which is why they're shopping for a new home in the city. I'm not sure dealing with Mayor Brandon is a good idea but, who knows?
If I were the Bears, I'd start growing corn on the property and get an agriculture exemption. Or find some other permitted use that will tax exempt the property?
Ministry anyone?????? Be a nice tax deduction! Joel Osteen could move to Arlington Heights!
Years ago, when the Bears and R2D2 (Richard II, or the kid) were negotiating for the reconstruction of Soldier Field into a giant, obsolete toilet seat, the late Mikey McCaskey threatened to move the Bears to Buffington Harbor, IN (Gary, for all you uninformed, non-gamblers). I'm beginning to think the Bears wished they'd called R2D2s bluff and actually moved there!
Bears paid $197 million for the property and want it valued at $60 million for tax purposes for the next 40 years.
But yeah, it's the school districts that are greedy.
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The “day in the life” article on Kevin Warren (right around Christmas on the Bears site) was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read.
It was horrible and really bizarre. And honestly it read like a puff piece for a religious magazine "How an NFL Team President Lets Faith Guide Gameday" which just feels odd for a team website piece. And given everything going on with the Bears, the whole article was just like "why?"
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Bears paid $197 million for the property and want it valued at $60 million for tax purposes for the next 40 years.
But yeah, it's the school districts that are greedy.
What was the tax bill on the property the year before the Bear’s bought it? What’s the new tax bill AH is proposing?
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Bad teams always come from bad leadership.
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What was the tax bill on the property the year before the Bear’s bought it? What’s the new tax bill AH is proposing?
Churchill Downs' last payment was $7.8 million.
Under the Bears' proposed valuation, their bill would be about $4.7 million.
Arlington Heights isn't involved. After the Bears paid $197 million for the property, the Cook County assessor revaluaed it closer to the sale price ($192 million). The Bears appealed that, arguing that it's really worth $60 million. The Board of Review last week sided with the assessor, but in the meantime the Bears and three school districts that serve the property are negotiating and the BOR says they'll accept any agreement they reach. The latest from those negotiations is that the Bears are sticking to $60 million while the districts are arguing $160 million.
At the same time this is happening, the Bears want a subsidiy known as Payments in Lieu of Taxes. This is essentially a glorified TIF district, except instead of lasting 23 years it would last 40.
That's why this initial valuation is so important for both sides. It' could set the baseline tax payment for the next four decades. For all intents, a stadium would be outdated and ready for the wrecking ball by the time the school districts (and parks, libraries, village, etc.) see any additional tax benefit from $5 billion in development.
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Slightly OT:
Using public money to build a stadium for a billionaire is dumb.
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Churchill Downs' last payment was $7.8 million.
Under the Bears' proposed valuation, their bill would be about $4.7 million.
Arlington Heights isn't involved. After the Bears paid $197 million for the property, the Cook County assessor revaluaed it closer to the sale price ($192 million). The Bears appealed that, arguing that it's really worth $60 million. The Board of Review last week sided with the assessor, but in the meantime the Bears and three school districts that serve the property are negotiating and the BOR says they'll accept any agreement they reach. The latest from those negotiations is that the Bears are sticking to $60 million while the districts are arguing $160 million.
At the same time this is happening, the Bears want a subsidiy known as Payments in Lieu of Taxes. This is essentially a glorified TIF district, except instead of lasting 23 years it would last 40.
That's why this initial valuation is so important for both sides. It' could set the baseline tax payment for the next four decades. For all intents, a stadium would be outdated and ready for the wrecking ball by the time the school districts (and parks, libraries, village, etc.) see any additional tax benefit from $5 billion in development.
So Arlington Park (I guess now Churchill Downs) paid 7.8 million. The Bears want to pay 4.7. What does Cook County want the payment to be?
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So Arlington Park (I guess now Churchill Downs) paid 7.8 million. The Bears want to pay 4.7. What does Cook County want the payment to be?
Pak said that they would accept whatever the negotiations between the school districts and the Bears come up with.
The problem from the Bears POV is that the districts know that any developer isn’t going to get the deal the Bears are seeking.
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So Arlington Park (I guess now Churchill Downs) paid 7.8 million. The Bears want to pay 4.7. What does Cook County want the payment to be?
$15M
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$15M
So they want to double the tax years before any revenue from the property will be possible. Probably room for negotiation from both sides.
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So they want to double the tax years before any revenue from the property will be possible. Probably room for negotiation from both sides.
Nobody made the Bears set the value at $197 million.
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Nobody made the Bears set the value at $197 million.
Perhaps you’re right and there is no room for negotiation. I guess we’ll see.
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Not a bears fan, but I've always enjoyed Chicago.
What's wrong with Soldier Field?
wouldn't it be better to keep the team in the city?
Is a stadium in the 'burb going to make the bears not suck? I don't think so.
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Not a bears fan, but I've always enjoyed Chicago.
What's wrong with Soldier Field?
wouldn't it be better to keep the team in the city?
Is a stadium in the 'burb going to make the bears not suck? I don't think so.
It’s too small. The team doesn’t have any ownership of the land around it to generate other sources of income. The field stinks. It’s not easy to access.
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It’s too small. The team doesn’t have any ownership of the land around it to generate other sources of income. The field stinks. It’s not easy to access.
All true. But I have to say it is the best stadium I've been to, in college or NFL, to watch a game. You are very close to the field and not a bad seat in the house. Still, it is time for a change.
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Also...
You can't host a Super Bowl at Soldier Field, or pretty much anything else. It's field is too small to host World Cup games. The third largest metro area in the country needs a better outdoor stadium for all sorts of reasons.
What I can't figure out about this entire Arlington Park issue is...how could they not have figured this all out earlier? It just seems like a giant misstep to buy this entire plot of land, draw up a plan for a stadium complex, yet not deal with the tax implications.
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Also...
You can't host a Super Bowl at Soldier Field, or pretty much anything else. It's field is too small to host World Cup games. The third largest metro area in the country needs a better outdoor stadium for all sorts of reasons.
What I can't figure out about this entire Arlington Park issue is...how could they not have figured this all out earlier? It just seems like a giant misstep to buy this entire plot of land, draw up a plan for a stadium complex, yet not deal with the tax implications.
New to Illinois and Cook County politics?
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Right. That's why I can't figure out why they didn't wrap this up earlier instead of purchasing it and figuring it out afterward. Plus, it seems to me at least, that Pak is largely correct here. Not sure why the school districts are the problem here.
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All true. But I have to say it is the best stadium I've been to, in college or NFL, to watch a game. You are very close to the field and not a bad seat in the house. Still, it is time for a change.
Once you get to your seat, it's fine, Most everything else about the experience is subpar.
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Once you get to your seat, it's fine, Most everything else about the experience is subpar.
Yep, just commenting on the seating/viewing experience. Better than AT&T, SoFi & Mile High.
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What I can't figure out about this entire Arlington Park issue is...how could they not have figured this all out earlier? It just seems like a giant misstep to buy this entire plot of land, draw up a plan for a stadium complex, yet not deal with the tax implications.
Brother Sultan:
Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.
As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land. The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest. The Chicago Bears tore the race track down in anticipation of building a domed stadium and a large number of homes and retail establishments on the space. The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.
Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.
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Brother Sultan:
Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.
As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land. The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest. The Chicago Bears tore the race track down in anticipation of building a domed stadium and a large number of homes and retail establishments on the space. The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.
Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.
I stopped reading this drivel at “bloodsucking school districts”.
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Brother Sultan:
Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.
False nonsequitor.
As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land.
Entirely false.
The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest.
False. The track ceased operations in 2021. Churchill continued to pay taxes for two years after.
The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.
And it was a losing argument. For obvious reasons, given that the Bears never tried or intended to operate a race track.
Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.
Right, but the value of the property is in its redevelopment potential, not a building that served a dying horseracing industry. The track facilities were an impediment to realizing the property's full value, not the reason for it.
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False. The track ceased operations in 2021. Churchill continued to pay taxes for two years after.
When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.
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When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.
1. The track sits in Wheeling and Palatine townships, both of which were reassessed in 2022 (after racing operations ended). Also, while standard reassessment in Cook County occur every three years, properties can be reassessed off schedule if they've undergone significant changes. And, of course, a property owner can appeal their assessment annually.
2. The success rate of assessment appeals in Cook County is nearly 40%.
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When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.
Lenny,
I lived in Lake County and we received new assessments by the township assessor every year. Beginning in 2008, property values rose even as home prices decreased.
I can’t guarantee why the assessors values were so out of line with market realities, though I have strong views as to why.
For 10 years we prepared rebuttals and we never lost. The arguments were strong and the assessor was consistently wrong.
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Lenny,
I lived in Lake County and we received new assessments by the township assessor every year. Beginning in 2008, property values rose even as home prices decreased.
I can’t guarantee why the assessors values were so out of line with market realities, though I have strong views as to why.
For 10 years we prepared rebuttals and we never lost. The arguments were strong and the assessor was consistently wrong.
Lake County properties are reassessed every four years.
https://www.lakecountyil.gov/Faq.aspx?QID=242#:~:text=Every%20four%20years%20the%20township,all%20properties%20within%20their%20jurisdiction.
The reason your assessment didn't drop immediately in 2008 is because the assessment is based in part on sales data from the three previous years. This can lead to a lag one way or the other. If the market tanks, your bill won't immediately decline. If the market surges, you won't get immediately walloped.
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Brother Pakuni:
I lived in Lake County for 28 years. All the time in the same house. Each year, we received reassessment notices from Libertyville Township telling us our valuation changed. They were on blue paper and I believe came in September or October.
Every single solitary year!
Assuming you think I’m not with it, You can go back and look at old newspapers in the local library that published the annual assessment notices. Or, you can go online and check out the Board of Review hearings every year. They’ve been quite busy over the years.
I know my friend because I appealed every year. It took hours to do it but we did. And we won.
There may have been a more formal assessment of some sort every three years but we were reviewed by the Libertyville Township assessor every single year. Ands almost every year after 2008 they were wrong.
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Dgies your arguments almost always revolve around your personal anecdotes and feelings rather than the facts at hand.
Regardless I come away from this thinking “this looked like a perfect situation, but the Bears managed to really screw this up!”
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Dgies your arguments almost always revolve around your personal anecdotes and feelings rather than the facts at hand.
Regardless I come away from this thinking “this looked like a perfect situation, but the Bears managed to really screw this up!”
Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.
Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government.
Oh and that pension deficit, estimated to be somewhere between $150 billion and $200 billion? Conservative poppycock! In my imagination. Doesn't exist.
Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too. Must be demented to imagine that a state like Illinois that's so well run would use valuation to extract tax increases. Why of course we all know that all Illinois government has to do is ask voters for more money and the residents of this nirvana would gladly march to the polls, vote in favor and come out saying, "gee, is this all they asked for?"
And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality. That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida. Or why the population of Nashville is shrinking so badly with folks leaving Tennessee to come to Illinois that the powers that be are worried that the birthplace of country music may soon be a ghost town.
Yeah, right.
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Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.
Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government.
Oh and that pension deficit, estimated to be somewhere between $150 billion and $200 billion? Conservative poppycock! In my imagination. Doesn't exist.
Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too. Must be demented to imagine that a state like Illinois that's so well run would use valuation to extract tax increases. Why of course we all know that all Illinois government has to do is ask voters for more money and the residents of this nirvana would gladly march to the polls, vote in favor and come out saying, "gee, is this all they asked for?"
And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality. That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida. Or why the population of Nashville is shrinking so badly with folks leaving Tennessee to come to Illinois that the powers that be are worried that the birthplace of country music may soon be a ghost town.
Yeah, right.
Yeah this is cool and all. But you are simply reinforcing my point that you are letting your personal experiences determine what you think the problem is here.
Show your work and describe what any of this has to do with the situation the Bears are facing. Otherwise your post is simply another multi-paragraph diatribe that has little to do with the subject at hand.
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Brainrot
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Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.
Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government.
Sorry, brother dgies, but you're all personal anecdotes and baked-in biases that have little basis in any reality beyond your own. And these paragraphs are a great example.
You claim there's a lack of entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.
Here's reality:
There are lots of ways to measure the effectiveness of a state business climate, but perhaps the best way is to track the investments being made by companies into new and expanded corporate facilities.
Conway Data Inc., parent company of Site Selection magazine, has been systematically doing just that for the past four decades, and the findings are telling. In 2021, only two states secured more corporate facility investment deals than Illinois’ 480, which easily topped fourth-place California’s 301.
Over the past 10 years, Illinois has finished among the top five states every time. Illinois’ performance is bolstered by the fact that it is home to America’s most dominant city for economic development. On that scorecard, Chicago ranks first by a mile. No other place in the country has come close to dethroning the Windy City in any of the past 10 years.
https://siteselection.com/cc/illinois/2022/business_climate_overview.cfm
And:
When it comes to landing corporate facility investment projects, few states do it any better than Illinois. In fact, in 2022, Illinois finished second in the nation by winning 487 capital investment deals just one year after finishing third, according to data compiled by Site Selection magazine.
Over the last decade, Illinois has perennially performed at a top-5 state level, and it consistently ranks in the top two or three. Chicago, the state’s largest city, has been the No. 1-ranked metro area in corporate facility performance for the entire past decade, winning yet again in 2022 with 448 projects last year.
https://siteselection.com/cc/illinois/2023/how-illinois-is-building-a-better-business-climate.cfm
Ken Griffin? Good lord. Griffin is a wannabe oligarch who out of a personal vendetta with JB Pritzker twice tried to buy the governor's mansion and then tried to buy the Illinois Supreme Court. Voters saw through it and thoroughly rejected him, so he took his ball and went home (literally ... he's a rich kid raised in Boca Raton) where he unsurprisingly found a governor more willing to do his bidding. He didn't move because of crime - if he had, he sure as heck wouldn't have gone to Miami - or the business climate. He moved because his billionaire rival kicked his tail three times.
To be clear, Illinois has plenty of problems. But no, it's not the depressed, crime-ridden hellscape you continually insist on portraying it as.
Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too.
Nobody said this. I'm sure you may have received some sort of annual statement. And just because your taxes go up doesn't mean your assessment changed. But the fact is, reassessments in Lake County (and every other county not named Cook) occur every four years. That's not me saying it. That's Illinois state law. Look it up.
As I've also written, reassessments to individual properties can occur more frequently if an assessor believes there's been substantial change in value. Maybe that was you. Maybe your assessor just didn't like you. Who knows? But again, here you are again arguing that your personal experience is that of everyone. It's not.
And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality.
Yeah, I already wrote that people can appeal their assessment every year. Sounds like you did. That's smart of you.
That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida.
How are your insurance rates?
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I stopped reading this drivel at “bloodsucking school districts”.
There is definitely a consistent archetype of "old dudes who raised families in the Chicago suburbs due to the excellent school districts and public services, but are big mad that their suburb didn't turn into a Florida gated community when their kids left home."
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One thing dgies is right about—Illinois has too many governments. Chicagoland outside the city is ridiculous in the number of tiny little towns. Start merging them and trim some waste from budgets. Same goes for Wisconsin counties.
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I don’t live in Lake County, but Libertyville Township is not the same as Lake County Assessor, so perhaps Libertyville Township had some procedures of their own, while Lake County reassesses every four years.
Ken Griffin is out for Ken Griffin. He once said that the rich have too little influence in government. He was a fan of Scott Walker and Bruce Rauner. He had a contentious divorce from wife #2 that settled hours before what would have been a hugely interesting trial. And yes, he took his ball and went home, figuratively, when he failed to defeat JB Pritzker, among other things.
And never count out Jerry Reinsdorf.
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I don’t live in Lake County, but Libertyville Township is not the same as Lake County Assessor, so perhaps Libertyville Township had some procedures of their own, while Lake County reassesses every four years.
In the suburban counties, the county assessor doesn't actually do the primary assessment. That's the role of the township assessor (it's flipped in Cook County).
And it's every four years.
What does a Township Assessor do?
Every four years the township assessor is charged with conducting a general assessment of all properties within their jurisdiction. In the general assessment year, the assessor appraises or estimates "fair cash value" (the amount for which a property can be sold in the due course of business and trade, not under duress, between a willing buyer and a willing seller) of all real estate as of January 1 of the general assessment year (most recently 2019). The property is then assessed at 33.33% of the "fair cash value," as determined by the Illinois Department of Revenue's sale ratio studies for the three most recent years preceding the general assessment year. (35 ILCS 200/ 1-50, 1-55) The property assessment value is used to determine each taxpayer’s overall share of the tax burden created by units of local government who are funded by the property tax.
https://www.lakecountyil.gov/Faq.aspx?QID=242
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Thank you, my bad for assuming all counties reassessed the same.
I think it’s crazy that it’s not uniform, but there it is….
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One thing dgies is right about—Illinois has too many governments. Chicagoland outside the city is ridiculous in the number of tiny little towns. Start merging them and trim some waste from budgets. Same goes for Wisconsin counties.
You're not wrong, but I don't think merging municipalities is likely, especially in the suburbs.
What could, and should, happen is the elimination of township governments. They do very little, especially in more populated areas, and their functions could seamlessly be rolled into county government.
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Regarding property taxes/assessments in Cook County: Seems like there's some misunderstandings in this thread. Normal because things are complicated.
Property tax assessments for your property do not matter. The only thing that matters is your property's assessed value with regards to everyone else in your community's property tax assessment.
My assessment could go up 100x this year, and as long as everyone else's assessment goes up 100x my property taxes will remain the same. That's because the property tax levy is divvyed up amongst everyone on a percentage basis.
So if everyone's assessments stay the same but the property tax levy goes up? You're going to pay more in taxes the next FY.
If your assessment goes up and everyone else's assessment stays largely the same, you're going to pay more in taxes that year.
That's why comps are more important than the absolute value of your assessment. Your assessment could be "unreasonable," but as long as everyone's is equally unreasonable you're good to go.
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A couple of final thoughts:
1) The problem the Bears are having -- and yes, it's real in Illinois -- is the concept of a "back door" property tax increase. In Illinois, non-home rule governmental entities, of which school boards are a huge part, can only increase property taxes when a majority of voters approve a tax hike. To get around the problem, governmental entities push for increases in property values. Some of us call it lobbying. It's admittedly difficult to approve a tax increase -- my earlier sarcasm notwithstanding -- so entities like schools rely on consistent increases in property values to ensure they have the financial support they want. If you don't fight them, as the Bears are, you can count on higher and higher values until you do, which result in higher and higher taxes. The Bears are fighting because they know that without a stake in the ground, things will become even more difficult in the years ahead.
2) The semantics aside, whether it is Lake County or Libertyville Township, the results are the same. Taxes go up because values go up. I didn't live anywhere in Lake County except Libertyville, but I doubt seriously the Township assessors are asleep at the wheel on this one.
3) Ultimately, the stadium issue is about leverage. The school districts called the Bears bluff, as the Daleys did years ago. How it works out remains to be seen. As a Bears season ticket holder for 26 years, I would have preferred the Bears stay in the city. I don't know whether they will or won't -- my sense is that McCaskeys don't spend money on speculation so one way or the other they'll somehow end up in the Heights.
4) We've debated the question of Illinois ad nauseum. Ya'll can live in your fantasy world that Illinois is well-governed, the economy is growing and that business prefers paying higher taxes, more regulation and universal government corruption all you want. You can also believe, reality notwithstanding, that people prefer Illinois over Dallas because of legalized abortions -- precisely the ad Lori Lightfoot placed in the Dallas Morning News.
5) The ad hominum fallacy notwithstanding, I absolutely love Chicago and it's quite saddening to see what's happening in local government. For the record, we spend between two and three months a year in Illinois and last summer, we were down on Diversey near Broadway and Clark. I don't worry about crime -- it happens -- but I do worry about the economic viability of a city and state with the level of debt and pension obligations Chicago and Illinois have. Unless the intent is to have the federal government assume Illinois' obligations, those pensions have to be paid. That's why we rent and didn't buy!
6) To Brother Skatastrophy's point about valuation consistency, that's not correct. In several of our appeals to the Lake County Board of Review, that was exactly the point the Libertyville Township Assessor made. I looked at the Board of Review and the Assessor and point blank said, "then you're consistently wrong," and "perhaps I need my neighbors to consistently appeal." As Brother Pakuni said in trying to tell me I was full of nonsense, Illinois statutes require the Township to reassess based on fair cash value. Nine of the 10 years I won, I directly cited 35 ILCS 200/ 1-50, 1-55 as a reason for rejecting the Township appraiser's valuation. The 10th year was inapplicability of the comparative companies.
One other final point. I know my adversaries think I'm MAGA Republican. Nothing could be further from the truth. The notion of turning my neighborhood or my community in Libertyville into a gated community would appall me. That's a stereotype I could do without. While most of us prefer our governments to be efficient as possible, we also have a deep sense of compassion for our fellow men and women. Our belief is predicated on our view that people need to take the creativity they have and work to make society better. Many of us just believe that there is a better option that government to do this.
And, Brother Muggsy, many of us also believe in protecting animals!
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One other final point. I know my adversaries think I'm MAGA Republican. Nothing could be further from the truth. The notion of turning my neighborhood or my community in Libertyville into a gated community would appall me. That's a stereotype I could do without. While most of us prefer our governments to be efficient as possible, we also have a deep sense of compassion for our fellow men and women. Our belief is predicated on our view that people need to take the creativity they have and work to make society better. Many of us just believe that there is a better option that government to do this.
FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving.
But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization. Its becuase they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family. I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.
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But the value DID go up. The Bears paid three times what it was previously assessed for. I know that there are differences in many municipalities between "assessed" and "appraised" value, but I don't think I have seen one less than a third of the other.
But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are. And the school districts are not bound to look after anything but their own interests here. And they know that if the Bears don't negotiate, they have to sell (and a private developer isn't getting anywhere close to the deal the Bears want).
I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.
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I just think has been greatly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.
This!
Warren wants a downtown stadium built, which will be controlled by the City and Chicago Park District--who will take most of concessions and parking revenues--the very reason the Bears wanted to move to The Heights (including future betting revenues in The Heights as the Bears won't participate in the new lakefront casino). Currently, the Bears don't pay property tax for Soldier Field (non-profit entity now owns it).
Now the Bears want all the revenues, a property freeze on a dormant property that most likely had agricultural exemptions for a large part of the parcel, and an ownership on the sports betting. Oh, and they want an extended TIF on the entire parcel, including the mixed use part which includes housing, new schools, hotels, retail, infrastructure, etc.
So which is it? Own the revenues and the obligations or lease? Watch them pick lease, and then good luck dealing with the environmentalists who blocked the far less intrusive Lucas Museum in the same spot. Reinsdorf schooled them.
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I live in the city, and I would fight tooth and nail against a new stadium on lakefront land. I would gladly contribute to Friends of the Parks or any other group
filing the lawsuit. It would not be just ‘environmentalists’.
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But the value DID go up. The Bears paid three times what it was previously assessed for. I know that there are differences in many municipalities between "assessed" and "appraised" value, but I don't think I have seen one less than a third of the other.
But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are. And the school districts are not bound to look after anything but their own interests here. And they know that if the Bears don't negotiate, they have to sell (and a private developer isn't getting anywhere close to the deal the Bears want).
I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.
Having done some property development with public infrastructure "add ons" and significantly increasing property values and the resulting tax revenues off the properties; I'll take the position of not judging the Bears until the end. I personally know these can be very messy processes that can make one or both parties look foolish, ignorant or greedy. My experience is that the "sausage is made in a very ugly way", but for the benefit of both sides, these rock fights have to occur before shovels hit the dirt and not after.
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I live in the city, and I would fight tooth and nail against a new stadium on lakefront land. I would gladly contribute to Friends of the Parks or any other group
filing the lawsuit. It would not be just ‘environmentalists’.
Similar to the Olympic bid resistance. Public dissent.
My point on environmental is that is a common (and effective) path to block due to the body of law.
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FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving.
But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization. It's because they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family. I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.
FWIW - This is a total Northeast thing also that I hear ad nauseum. "There's no way in hell my kids are going to school down South. The public schools here are better than even the private schools down there."
As soon as the kids graduate high school, "I can't wait to get out of here because the taxes are too high."
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FWIW - This is a total Northeast thing also that I hear ad nauseum. "There's no way in hell my kids are going to school down South. The public schools here are better than even the private schools down there."
As soon as the kids graduate high school, "I can't wait to get out of here because the taxes are too high."
Sounds like and Economics 101 thing.
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But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are.
I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.
On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.
I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!
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On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.
I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!
If a state wants to give money for a stadium, I don’t have a problem with it. Just don’t bring up faulty economic impact studies.
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On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.
I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!
Pritzker is on the same page. He's been a wonderful steward for the state thus far.
> Pritzker has “been dismissive of using tax dollars to subsidize a new stadium for a team worth billions” before the bonds that paid for the team's current South Side home are paid off, but he has “yet to rule anything out until learning of the team's detailed financial plan.”
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Reinsdorf headed to Springfield tomorrow to meet with legislators. Guess here is he will seek a definitive answer before the state legislature adjourns at the end of May.
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Maybe spend time and effort to build a team - then a stadium could be much easier to stomach.
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FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving.
But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization. Its becuase they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family. I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.
I lived in the Chicago area for more than 50 years, the last 45 in a suburb north of the city. I paid very high property taxes for good schools that my 4 kids never went to and paid good size tuitions at St Norbert grammar school and Loyola Academy and Regina Dominican HS. My choice, no complaints or regrets - and I LOVED where I lived. And I stayed there for 15 years after my youngest had completed HS, paying taxes for services I eschewed when available and no longer could use. When I retired I looked at places that were warm, had good golf and were, imo, a good investment (I didn’t think owning real estate in Illinois was all that wise). Sold my house in Northbrook, bought a villa in Naples for half of what I sold my home for. It’s now worth 40% more than my old home is. I don’t feel the least bit guilty about paying property taxes that are 75% lower than those on my previous home.
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I lived in the Chicago area for more than 50 years, the last 45 in a suburb north of the city. I paid very high property taxes for good schools that my 4 kids never went to and paid good size tuitions at St Norbert grammar school and Loyola Academy and Regina Dominican HS. My choice, no complaints or regrets - and I LOVED where I lived. And I stayed there for 15 years after my youngest had completed HS, paying taxes for services I eschewed when available and no longer could use. When I retired I looked at places that were warm, had good golf and were, imo, a good investment (I didn’t think owning real estate in Illinois was all that wise). Sold my house in Northbrook, bought a villa in Naples for half of what I sold my home for. It’s now worth 40% more than my old home is. I don’t feel the least bit guilty about paying property taxes that are 75% lower than those on my previous home.
I love a good Florida King^TM! Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions. But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally. Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle." That's healthy and awesome. But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.
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I love a good Florida King^TM! Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions. But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally. Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle." That's healthy and awesome. But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.
Your going to feel like you want to feel, but big picture that is democracy. These things find their balance with compromise. Happens with income tax rates, defense spending, etc. We all have our own priorities, doesn't make one or the other party bad actors. And people priorities change over time.
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Your going to feel like you want to feel, but big picture that is democracy. These things find their balance with compromise. Happens with income tax rates, defense spending, etc. We all have our own priorities, doesn't make one or the other party bad actors. And people priorities change over time.
I don't disagree, but this could literally be taken from The Republic.
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I don't disagree, but this could literally be taken from The Republic.
I get it, I get confused with Plato all the time and sometimes Brad Pitt ;D
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I love a good Florida King^TM! Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions. But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally. Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle." That's healthy and awesome. But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.
Burrow
I get it. We have similar problems sometimes in the community where I live. Most members want what’s best for the membership as a whole, but a few of the older folks don’t want to spend money on things they won’t use all that much. There’s more to life than one’s individual ROI.
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Burrow
I get it. We have similar problems sometimes in the community where I live. Most members want what’s best for the membership as a whole, but a few of the older folks don’t want to spend money on things they won’t use all that much. There’s more to life than one’s individual ROI.
As a Cubs fan, whose stadium redevelopment was paid almost entirely by private funds, why would I pay for a sorry ass Southside baseball team's stadium redevelopment (and as a tax payer)? Move them to Nashville! I get the Reinsdorfs are family friends with the Pritzkers but this has Mike Madigan written all over it.
https://youtu.be/mM_jGBsggjA?si=-zwn-XMUSqkkCtvX
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As a Cubs fan, whose stadium redevelopment was paid almost entirely by private funds, why would I pay for a sorry ass Southside baseball team's stadium redevelopment (and as a tax payer)? Move them to Nashville! I get the Reinsdorfs are family friends with the Pritzkers but this has Mike Madigan written all over it.
https://youtu.be/mM_jGBsggjA?si=-zwn-XMUSqkkCtvX
Lenny was responding to my post about funding schools, not the funding the stadium. I derailed the thread in response to a couple of dgies posts so it’s my bad.
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I love a good Florida King^TM! Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions. But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally. Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle." That's healthy and awesome. But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.
Let me clear a few things up from this post:
1) I'm not retired. I still work at the position I've held for 21 years and in a field I've worked in for more than 40 years.
2) We Illinois ex-pats did not leave because of taxes. We left because of a lifestyle choice. Most of my neighbors with whom we were friends had left for other communities, in Illinois and elsewhere, and our neighborhood was filled with folks in their late 30s. Plus, we were tired of shoveling snow and dealing with Chicago winters. We could have stayed and been quite happy in Illinois (especially because once I retired, I'd have MU season tickets) but we're far happier living adjacent to the beach on Florida's Treasure Coast.
3) When I referred to "Bloodsucking School Districts," I didn't knock the quality of education but rather, I felt the amount of waste for things that were peripheral to the education mission of our school districts is astounding. Case in point: Community 128 spending $30 million for a new swimming pool and the multi-million renovation of the student cafeteria (I think it's $10 million but I'm not sure). There is a notion in our government from federal down to the most lowly township that all you have to do to make something better is to throw money at it. Money helps but it doesn't make up for bad management and an unwillingness to say "no."
4) People ultimately get the government -- and the decisions -- they want. Period. If my old community wanted a $27 million swimming pool, they were going to get it. Same for unbelievable amounts of money spent on athletics. In too many communities, you had to scrape, fight and all but go war for learning disabled children and children who learned "differently", but God-forbid if you touched the football budget. To that end, if the people of Illinois want Chicago to have a new baseball and football stadium funded by taxpayers -- directly or otherwise -- they'll get it,
5) To be candid, living down here makes me equally aggravated, for different reasons. If any of you saw 60 Minutes on 3/3/24, they interviewed Moms for Liberty, a conservative "watchdog" group that has culled favor with our governor. The Moms were founded in my current community and their goal is to wipe out of our consciousness any book that mentions sexuality, homosexuality and transgenderism. We've got these nutcases up to our eyeballs here, which really proves that in someplaces in America, the 1950s have not passed!
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2) We Illinois ex-pats did not leave because of taxes. We left because of a lifestyle choice. Most of my neighbors with whom we were friends had left for other communities, in Illinois and elsewhere, and our neighborhood was filled with folks in their late 30s. Plus, we were tired of shoveling snow and dealing with Chicago winters. We could have stayed and been quite happy in Illinois (especially because once I retired, I'd have MU season tickets) but we're far happier living adjacent to the beach on Florida's Treasure Coast.
This is a good point. I think it is usually after they move that people tend to bring politics into it to use publicly as an excuse why they moved rather than what it really was - a lifestyle choice based on their current family's needs and wants.
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I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.
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I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.
I have no idea how they think they're going to get Friends of the Park on board with multibillion development on the lakefront when George Lucas couldn't even get 17 acres for a museum.
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I have no idea how they think they're going to get Friends of the Park on board with multibillion development on the lakefront when George Lucas couldn't even get 17 acres for a museum.
100% correct. Forgot that very important part as well.
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I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.
What's the NFL chipping in?
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What's the NFL chipping in?
Just for comparison's sake, the league gave the Titans $220 million, Raiders $200 million and are helping the Bills contribute $690 million, though I can't find how much of that is from the team and how much is from the league.
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League will give them a friendly loan from what I’m hearing.
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If the Bears do this, the White Sox are screwed. JR will want what other owners get, the public paying for the stadium. Chicago/Illinois can't build the Sox a stadium with the Bears' deal as the precedent. Correct?
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I have no idea how they think they're going to get Friends of the Park on board with multibillion development on the lakefront when George Lucas couldn't even get 17 acres for a museum.
It's the Bears... that's how!!!
The Chicago Bears are the most valuable sports franchise not named the Dallas Cowboys between the coasts. They have a hold on Chicago that, given their recent on-field performance, I'll never understand.
Friends of the Parks vs. the National Football League? That stadium will be up, running and the Bears have another Super Bowl before FOtP even knows what hit them. When Friends of the Parks puts 4 million people on LaSalle Street in mid-January to celebrate a win, let me know.
The more interesting question is what happens to the raw land in Arlington Heights?
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Eh. Their proposed move to Arlington Heights was met with a collective shrug by most of the fan-base. If I'm Chicago, there is no way I make a sweetheart deal here. Put the stadium out there and the downtown hotels will still have much of the visitors when big events come to town.
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It's the Bears... that's how!!!
The Chicago Bears are the most valuable sports franchise not named the Dallas Cowboys between the coasts. They have a hold on Chicago that, given their recent on-field performance, I'll never understand.
Friends of the Parks vs. the National Football League? That stadium will be up, running and the Bears have another Super Bowl before FOtP even knows what hit them. When Friends of the Parks puts 4 million people on LaSalle Street in mid-January to celebrate a win, let me know.
The more interesting question is what happens to the raw land in Arlington Heights?
So hard up for success they're going to throw a parade for a Wild Card or Divisional Round win?
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It's the Bears... that's how!!!
The Chicago Bears are the most valuable sports franchise not named the Dallas Cowboys between the coasts. They have a hold on Chicago that, given their recent on-field performance, I'll never understand.
Friends of the Parks vs. the National Football League? That stadium will be up, running and the Bears have another Super Bowl before FOtP even knows what hit them. When Friends of the Parks puts 4 million people on LaSalle Street in mid-January to celebrate a win, let me know.
The more interesting question is what happens to the raw land in Arlington Heights?
I think you underestimate the legal standing that the FOP has. They already have stated they will fight for the Michael Reese site.
As for Arlington, the Bears own that site and they will still have to deal with the entities they just spurned. Good luck, Warren. You can see why the B1G schools were happy he moved on.
$2 Billion to share revenues, dates, prolonged legal battles, crappy infrastructure, and no real estate appreciation versus $1 Billion (stated Bears plan) for full control in Arlington Heights that would significantly increase the book value for the team that half the family wants to sell. Bears doing Bear things.
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Which leads me to believe that the lakefront idea is just a ham-handed threat. The school districts know that if its not the Bears, someone else will develop that site. There is zero reason for them to give in to the team since it already owns the property and has to pay the tax anyway.
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I think you underestimate the legal standing that the FOP has. They already have stated they will fight for the Michael Reese sight.
As for Arlington, the Bears own that site and they will still have to deal with the entities they just spurned. Good luck, Warren. You can see why the B1G schools were happy he moved on.
$2 Billion to share revenues, dates, prolonged legal battles, crappy infrastructure, and no real estate appreciation versus $1 Billion (stated Bears plan) for full control in Arlington Heights that would significantly increase the book value for the team that half the family wants to sell. Bears doing Bear things.
Yep.
Only three ways to make sense of this.
1. A clumsy negotiating ploy with the bloodsuckers.
2. They're terrified that Jerry is going to get his hands all over the ISFA money before them.
3. They really, really need public funding and see this as being more palatable to the Chicago-dominated General Assembly than moving to Arlington Heights.
All three are incredibly short-sighted. But Kevin Warren is 60 years old and will be long gone by the time the McCaskeys catch on.
The value of the Raiders has doubled ($3.1 billion to $6.2 billion) since 2020 largely because they control their own stadium and its revenues. The Bears' apparent willingness to surrender that kind of growth in hopes of saving a $10 million a year on their property taxes is the most Bears thing ever.
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Friends of the Parks vs. the National Football League? That stadium will be up, running and the Bears have another Super Bowl before FOtP even knows what hit them. When Friends of the Parks the bears puts 4 million people on LaSalle Street in mid-January to celebrate a win, let me know.
Fixed.
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I still go back to the article that the Bears website posted in December on a day in the life of Kevin Warren. Everything that has happened since then has revealed itself going back to that article.
I'm all for leverage and having options, and on the surface, Warren is either an awesome poker player, or the McCaskey's made a gigantic mistake in hiring him to run the stadium show here.
Time is not the Bears friend, for many reasons. The IFSA TIF money expiring, competing against the White Sox both for that money and in the state legislature, overall construction costs being pushed up every day that there isn't a shovel in the ground somewhere.
Virginia is 101, the second she passes away, the future of the franchise is up in the air. The future value of the franchise is worth wayyyyyy more in Arlington Heights. I think ultimately they wind up in AH, but man, they are doing everything possible to make that reality as difficult as they can.
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Yep.
Only three ways to make sense of this.
1. A clumsy negotiating ploy with the bloodsuckers.
2. They're terrified that Jerry is going to get his hands all over the ISFA money before them.
3. They really, really need public funding and see this as being more palatable to the Chicago-dominated General Assembly than moving to Arlington Heights.
All three are incredibly short-sighted. But Kevin Warren is 60 years old and will be long gone by the time the McCaskeys catch on.
The value of the Raiders has doubled ($3.1 billion to $6.2 billion) since 2020 largely because they control their own stadium and its revenues. The Bears' apparent willingness to surrender that kind of growth in hopes of saving a $10 million a year on their property taxes is the most Bears thing ever.
Makes me wonder if the NFL will step in and nix the deal.
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I still go back to the article that the Bears website posted in December on a day in the life of Kevin Warren. Everything that has happened since then has revealed itself going back to that article.
I'm all for leverage and having options, and on the surface, Warren is either an awesome poker player, or the McCaskey's made a gigantic mistake in hiring him to run the stadium show here.
Time is not the Bears friend, for many reasons. The IFSA TIF money expiring, competing against the White Sox both for that money and in the state legislature, overall construction costs being pushed up every day that there isn't a shovel in the ground somewhere.
Virginia is 101, the second she passes away, the future of the franchise is up in the air. The future value of the franchise is worth wayyyyyy more in Arlington Heights. I think ultimately they wind up in AH, but man, they are doing everything possible to make that reality as difficult as they can.
Watching this play out, I get the feeling that the real big issue with the AH site is that Warren wasn't the one to do the deal. Seems ridiculous, but the ego on this guy. My feeling he wants the stadium to be his deal from start to finish and ownership is so weak, it's happening.
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Watching this play out, I get the feeling that the real big issue with the AH site is that Warren wasn't the one to do the deal. Seems ridiculous, but the ego on this guy. My feeling he wants the stadium to be his deal from start to finish and ownership is so weak, it's happening.
I had the same thought, but didn't post about it cuz I'm not close enough to the situation to be sure one way or the other.
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I think you underestimate the legal standing that the FOP has. They already have stated they will fight for the Michael Reese site.
As for Arlington, the Bears own that site and they will still have to deal with the entities they just spurned. Good luck, Warren. You can see why the B1G schools were happy he moved on.
$2 Billion to share revenues, dates, prolonged legal battles, crappy infrastructure, and no real estate appreciation versus $1 Billion (stated Bears plan) for full control in Arlington Heights that would significantly increase the book value for the team that half the family wants to sell. Bears doing Bear things.
Brother Doc:
FOtP was dealing with a museum that relatively few folks in Chicago cared enough to get worked up about. By contrast, FOtP got rolled when He and His minions wanted to put the Obama Presidential Museum in Jackson Park.
He was only President of the United States. He is NOT the Bears.
The city wants this badly. It's a prestige thing for Chicago at a time when the Mayor and Council need things to go right. I'm not convinced yet they're going to build this on a park -- despite the musings -- and I'm more of the belief that the city may well assemble a parcel of land through eminent domain for the Bears and let them build. It create city jobs, allows for more city tax dollars and may even put more land on the tax rolls. Or, the city may lease the land to the Bears for 50 years.
As for the site in the Heights, I suspect it will be sold to some developer. It's a huge parcel of undeveloped land at a good site that will have considerable value in the years ahead.
Finally, Brother Ficke, you and I both know to what I was referring! ;D In all the years I lived in Chicago, I never saw anything quite like the Bears celebration. Yeah, the Cubs may have drawn more, but it wasn't below zero when they held their celebration.
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Brother Doc:
FOtP was dealing with a museum that relatively few folks in Chicago cared enough to get worked up about. By contrast, FOtP got rolled when He and His minions wanted to put the Obama Presidential Museum in Jackson Park.
He was only President of the United States. He is NOT the Bears.
The city wants this badly. It's a prestige thing for Chicago at a time when the Mayor and Council need things to go right. I'm not convinced yet they're going to build this on a park -- despite the musings -- and I'm more of the belief that the city may well assemble a parcel of land through eminent domain for the Bears and let them build. It create city jobs, allows for more city tax dollars and may even put more land on the tax rolls. Or, the city may lease the land to the Bears for 50 years.
As for the site in the Heights, I suspect it will be sold to some developer. It's a huge parcel of undeveloped land at a good site that will have considerable value in the years ahead.
Finally, Brother Ficke, you and I both know to what I was referring! ;D In all the years I lived in Chicago, I never saw anything quite like the Bears celebration. Yeah, the Cubs may have drawn more, but it wasn't below zero when they held their celebration.
The differences with this parcel are that laws are in effect on the lakefront and the Bears being a for profit entity.
“Friends of the Parks stands firm in the role of lakefront protector as we have for many decades,” Executive Director Juanita Irizarry said in a statement. “That parcel is protected by the Illinois public trust doctrine and the City of Chicago Lakefront Protection Ordinance.”
That ordinance, which has been on the books since 1973 — not, as many commonly believe, since the days of Montgomery Ward — largely prohibits new building construction east of DuSable Lake Shore Drive.
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[...]
Finally, Brother Ficke, you and I both know to what I was referring! ;D In all the years I lived in Chicago, I never saw anything quite like the Bears celebration. Yeah, the Cubs may have drawn more, but it wasn't below zero when they held their celebration.
It was too good an opportunity to let slide
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Watching this play out, I get the feeling that the real big issue with the AH site is that Warren wasn't the one to do the deal. Seems ridiculous, but the ego on this guy. My feeling he wants the stadium to be his deal from start to finish and ownership is so weak, it's happening.
Yeah, you’re definitely right. It feels like Warren came in, the McCaskey’s weren’t going to get in his way, and he started doing what he thinks is best for him personally.
If you haven’t read this article, definitely read it. It’s something else.
https://www.chicagobears.com/news/day-in-the-life-bears-president-ceo-kevin-warren
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Yeah, you’re definitely right. It feels like Warren came in, the McCaskey’s weren’t going to get in his way, and he started doing what he thinks is best for him personally.
If you haven’t read this article, definitely read it. It’s something else.
https://www.chicagobears.com/news/day-in-the-life-bears-president-ceo-kevin-warren
Maybe it’s the way I was raised in my faith, but I was taught to be a doer, not a talker. My prayer, my reflection and even any conversations I have about God are private.
When I see someone elaborating on Bible study, spiritual growth and with whom they discuss spirituality, red flags go up.
I refuse to judge the man’s sincerity. That’s God’s job. But the depth of the man’s discussion of his faith seems like something we were warned about in the biblical discussions of the Pharisees.
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Yeah, you’re definitely right. It feels like Warren came in, the McCaskey’s weren’t going to get in his way, and he started doing what he thinks is best for him personally.
If you haven’t read this article, definitely read it. It’s something else.
https://www.chicagobears.com/news/day-in-the-life-bears-president-ceo-kevin-warren
I've seen the article and the video. Its something. But more credence to the notion that the new stadium is as much about Warren's ego and legacy as it is for the team's future.
I believe this is due in part to George not caring as much as another owner on increasing the value of the franchise. I believe he is more preoccupied in how the family is going to keep the team after Virginia dies.
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Yeah, you’re definitely right. It feels like Warren came in, the McCaskey’s weren’t going to get in his way, and he started doing what he thinks is best for him personally.
If you haven’t read this article, definitely read it. It’s something else.
https://www.chicagobears.com/news/day-in-the-life-bears-president-ceo-kevin-warren
As bad of a piece of schlock "journalism" as you will find. Reads like it was written by a fresh out of college $25000 a year hack intern.
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Yeah, you’re definitely right. It feels like Warren came in, the McCaskey’s weren’t going to get in his way, and he started doing what he thinks is best for him personally.
If you haven’t read this article, definitely read it. It’s something else.
https://www.chicagobears.com/news/day-in-the-life-bears-president-ceo-kevin-warren
In a story full of bizarre statements, this might be my favorite:
"Heading toward the Bears sideline, Warren feels the love from fans as they yell out to him: "Let's go Mr. Warren," "Bear Down," and "Mr. Warren, we love you."
Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
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In a story full of bizarre statements, this might be my favorite:
"Heading toward the Bears sideline, Warren feels the love from fans as they yell out to him: "Let's go Mr. Warren," "Bear Down," and "Mr. Warren, we love you."
Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
There are plenty of people who fall for similar stuff.
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In a story full of bizarre statements, this might be my favorite:
"Heading toward the Bears sideline, Warren feels the love from fans as they yell out to him: "Let's go Mr. Warren," "Bear Down," and "Mr. Warren, we love you."
Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
Did Warren play at Baylor? Maybe he went to Waco for a game? :D
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Every time I post on Scoop, I feel the love, admiration, and respect that comes back at me.
Even when walking down the street near my house, people shout out “We love you, sir”. Fortunately, God created me as a humble man who never lets this adoring admiration go to my head.
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Every time I post on Scoop, I feel the love, admiration, and respect that comes back at me.
Even when walking down the street near my house, people shout out “We love you, sir”. Fortunately, God created me as a humble man who never lets this adoring admiration go to my head.
As an evangelical Christian, I can’t be humble
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In a story full of bizarre statements, this might be my favorite:
"Heading toward the Bears sideline, Warren feels the love from fans as they yell out to him: "Let's go Mr. Warren," "Bear Down," and "Mr. Warren, we love you."
Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
Bears fans, and football fans in general, are known for their courteousness inside the stadium.
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Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
The short answer is: They're Bears fans. They'd fall for about anything!
Their team is an operating subsidiary of the Green Bay Packers Football Club, Inc.
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In a story full of bizarre statements, this might be my favorite:
"Heading toward the Bears sideline, Warren feels the love from fans as they yell out to him: "Let's go Mr. Warren," "Bear Down," and "Mr. Warren, we love you."
Do they really think Bears' fans fall for this stuff?
No one loves Kevin Warren like Kevin Warren.
Also, there definitely is a group of fans that exists that would do something dumb like that.
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Read a report about Governor JB's reaction to a public/private partnership to build the new home of the Bears, Pritzker Stadium.
I'm betting the move to build on public land in Chicago using public funds probably has more to do with an insurrection inside the McCaskey/Halas family than anything else. In the Heights, my understanding was the Bears sought to build the stadium themselves and have public funds only for highway and utility improvements.
Now, I'm betting the shift to Chicago suggests the family ain't ponying up for the stadium. They like living on their dividends and the idea of debt service before family dividends makes them cringe. My gosh, some of them might have to go out and, oh I don't know, earn an honest living free from the joy of large NFL-related dividends.
BEAR DOWN my backside!!!!
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The majority of the McCaskeys work and live very normal lives.
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Make Arlington an illegal alien camp? 😂
Warren tasting Illinois pols at play from both ends.
https://northcooknews.com/stories/656658737-state-rep-walker-i-d-welcome-a-plan-to-build-illegal-alien-camp-at-arlington-park
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Make Arlington an illegal alien camp? 😂
Warren tasting Illinois pols at play from both ends.
https://northcooknews.com/stories/656658737-state-rep-walker-i-d-welcome-a-plan-to-build-illegal-alien-camp-at-arlington-park
I have no idea why people are leaving Illinois. No clue.
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Asylum seekers aren’t illegal aliens.
That being said, that won’t happen on that piece of land in Arlington Heights.
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Make Arlington an illegal alien camp? 😂
Warren tasting Illinois pols at play from both ends.
https://northcooknews.com/stories/656658737-state-rep-walker-i-d-welcome-a-plan-to-build-illegal-alien-camp-at-arlington-park
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/north-cook-news/
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Asylum seekers aren’t illegal aliens.
That being said, that won’t happen on that piece of land in Arlington Heights.
Yep and yep.
But the outrage machine needs outrage.
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The Bears will be in AH. The negotiations have been going fine. The lakefront is just part of the bargaining process.
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Yep and yep.
But the outrage machine needs outrage.
How dare they get upset over those poor wretches Chinese infiltrators, MS13, Hamas, ISIS, Venezuelan burglary rings, Chilean theft bands, Iranian sleeper cells . They are just here for the free stuff
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How dare they get upset over those poor wretches Chinese infiltrators, MS13, Hamas, ISIS, Venezuelan burglary rings, Chilean theft bands, Iranian sleeper cells . They are just here for the free stuff
That’s the good stuff
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How dare they get upset over those poor wretches Chinese infiltrators, MS13, Hamas, ISIS, Venezuelan burglary rings, Chilean theft bands, Iranian sleeper cells . They are just here for the free stuff
Rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, sh*t-kickers and Methodists.
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Rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, sh*t-kickers and Methodists.
(https://comb.io/9ZzSPd.gif)
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Rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, sh*t-kickers and Methodists.
Always love a Blazing Saddles reference.
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I still go back to the article that the Bears website posted in December on a day in the life of Kevin Warren. Everything that has happened since then has revealed itself going back to that article.
I'm all for leverage and having options, and on the surface, Warren is either an awesome poker player, or the McCaskey's made a gigantic mistake in hiring him to run the stadium show here.
Time is not the Bears friend, for many reasons. The IFSA TIF money expiring, competing against the White Sox both for that money and in the state legislature, overall construction costs being pushed up every day that there isn't a shovel in the ground somewhere.
Virginia is 101, the second she passes away, the future of the franchise is up in the air. The future value of the franchise is worth wayyyyyy more in Arlington Heights. I think ultimately they wind up in AH, but man, they are doing everything possible to make that reality as difficult as they can.
That "article" isn't an article as it was a spin piece by the Bears. My guess is it was material to allure ministers and politicians to support the Bears which creates leverage against AH. Note that Brandon appeared in video as well. Seemed like a rough day of work to me as he had to go to office to workout and then go home to wash Mercedes before driving family to game. Tough day with close in private room at Joe's Stone Crab.
The Bears should have been negotiating with AH before they closed on property. My personal opinion is they will build a new stadium and do a sale leaseback so family can capture value to put cash in family member's pockets. The property could still create long term cash flow to family if they retain some of the other real estate.Trend has been for NFL teams to move to suburban locations and Bears are no different. Travelling to a stadium along the lakefront with no access from east is a traffic nightmare even if they move to the south.
This play was setup many years ago when Bears moved offices out of Soldier Field but they still couldn't get ahead of the curve. There is more value to be created for the McCaskey family by building a team owned facility in AH than being a tenant of the City of Chicago.
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That "article" isn't an article as it was a spin piece by the Bears. My guess is it was material to allure ministers and politicians to support the Bears which creates leverage against AH. Note that Brandon appeared in video as well. Seemed like a rough day of work to me as he had to go to office to workout and then go home to wash Mercedes before driving family to game. Tough day with close in private room at Joe's Stone Crab.
The Bears should have been negotiating with AH before they closed on property. My personal opinion is they will build a new stadium and do a sale leaseback so family can capture value to put cash in family member's pockets. The property could still create long term cash flow to family if they retain some of the other real estate.Trend has been for NFL teams to move to suburban locations and Bears are no different. Travelling to a stadium along the lakefront with no access from east is a traffic nightmare even if they move to the south.
This play was setup many years ago when Bears moved offices out of Soldier Field but they still couldn't get ahead of the curve. There is more value to be created for the McCaskey family by building a team owned facility in AH than being a tenant of the City of Chicago.
What you say is all true. But the Bears will be leaseholders on the lakefront.
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What you say is all true. But the Bears will be leaseholders on the lakefront.
That is the Bears-iesty thing to do. But even the losers in charge know that they need to own and develop. That is where the money is.
Only the Bears can screw this up.