Creighton

[BM1090]

"Correct" is a matter of opinion.  Too much at stake, in my opinion, to risk the goals of the team for a symbolic gesture to 3 individuals. Besides, starting no matta.

This. If we were 12-5 in conference, or if we were 5-12, then I'd be advocating for Wojo to start the seniors.

That's not the case. We're not in position to experiment to make sure nobody's feelings get hurt.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The University cares about the student athletes and honoring them with a pregame ceremony.  The basketball program is in the business of winning basketball games.  The correct thing to do is honor them by getting a win that puts them into their first NCAA Tournament together.

The basketball program also cares about honoring their seniors. To think otherwise is silly.

The question becomes do they think the the risk of a potential negative effect of changing the starting lineup is worth the definite appreciation the seniors will receive for getting to start on senior night.

Starting no matta. Motivating playas mattas. I could see an argument where it would actually be more beneficial to our chances of winning to start the seniors. But I could also see the opposite argument.

In the end, I think whatever decision is made will ultimately have maybe 1 iota of an effect on the outcome of the game but that won't stop us from blaming it if we lose!

[wadesworld]

The basketball program also cares about honoring their seniors. To think otherwise is silly.

The question becomes do they think the the risk of a potential negative effect of changing the starting lineup is worth the definite appreciation the seniors will receive for getting to start on senior night.

Starting no matta. Motivating playas mattas. I could see an argument where it would actually be more beneficial to our chances of winning to start the seniors. But I could also see the opposite argument.

In the end, I think whatever decision is made will ultimately have maybe 1 iota of an effect on the outcome of the game but that won't stop us from blaming it if we lose!

Yes, they care about honoring their seniors with a little ceremony, just like every other D1 basketball program in the country.

Starting can definitely matter.  Some players are better coming off the bench (Katin), some players struggle off the bench (it appears Luke might be a guy that does), some lineups work better together (it seems like Wojo has found a lineup that works well together to start the game, and has the luxury of having 3 seniors and a lot of scoring ability still on his bench), etc.  If you start the game down 12-2 in the first 4 minutes before your first sub is made that can be the difference in a game, no matter who gets the most minutes throughout the rest of the game.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes, they care about honoring their seniors with a little ceremony, just like every other D1 basketball program in the country.

Starting can definitely matter.  Some players are better coming off the bench (Katin), some players struggle off the bench (it appears Luke might be a guy that does), some lineups work better together (it seems like Wojo has found a lineup that works well together to start the game, and has the luxury of having 3 seniors and a lot of scoring ability still on his bench), etc.  If you start the game down 12-2 in the first 4 minutes before your first sub is made that can be the difference in a game, no matter who gets the most minutes throughout the rest of the game.

There is no logical argument that supports a player being better or worse when coming off the bench. A player entering the game at the tip or entering the game at the 16 minute mark has no logical effect on ability as a basketball player. What might happen is that some players are motivated differently than others. Some need the recognition of being the starter. Some have to feel the need to prove themselves by not being a starter. Being a coach is about figuring out what buttons your players have and pushing them at the right time. I agree that this change to the starting lineup has pushed the right buttons for most of our players and we are playing our best basketball.

Lineups do matter as well. But as long as you aren't marching out a lineup that you would never put on the floor in a normal situation, why does it matter if that lineup plays the first two minutes together or two random minutes together early in the second half? All minutes have an equal impact on the game. We as fans just tend to overemphasize the beginning and the end of games.

Bottom line, if the seniors don't start. Great. Decided to stick with what's been working the last few games. If the seniors start. Great. Coach decided that the rewarding the seniors button was the better one to press for this game. No matter which he goes with, I don't think it affects are chances of winning that drastically.

[wadesworld]

There is no logical argument that supports a player being better or worse when coming off the bench. A player entering the game at the tip or entering the game at the 16 minute mark has no logical effect on ability as a basketball player. What might happen is that some players are motivated differently than others. Some need the recognition of being the starter. Some have to feel the need to prove themselves by not being a starter. Being a coach is about figuring out what buttons your players have and pushing them at the right time. I agree that this change to the starting lineup has pushed the right buttons for most of our players and we are playing our best basketball.

Lineups do matter as well. But as long as you aren't marching out a lineup that you would never put on the floor in a normal situation, why does it matter if that lineup plays the first two minutes together or two random minutes together early in the second half? All minutes have an equal impact on the game. We as fans just tend to overemphasize the beginning and the end of games.

Bottom line, if the seniors don't start. Great. Decided to stick with what's been working the last few games. If the seniors start. Great. Coach decided that the rewarding the seniors button was the better one to press for this game. No matter which he goes with, I don't think it affects are chances of winning that drastically.

Or someone struggles to transition from working up a sweat in warmups to the sitting on the bench to then having to get back into the swing of things coming off the bench.  It doesn't affect every player, but some players certainly are better in a certain role (off the bench, starter, etc.)  It's the same as a baseball player who kills it as a number 7 hitter but can't make contact as a number 2 hitter.  The ball is still the same size, the mound the same height, the mound the same distance from the plate, etc.  But some players are better in certain roles/situations than others.

And if a game gets out of hand early then the last few minutes are certainly less important than the first few minutes.  If a home team gets momentum early and puts the game out of reach by halftime then no, the 2nd TV timeout in the second half is not nearly as meaningful as the 2nd TV timeout in the first half, because none of the minutes in the second half matter.  Some games every second is just as important as the other.  But some games the first 5 minutes can be the difference in a game.

[muwarrior69]

Yes, they care about honoring their seniors with a little ceremony, just like every other D1 basketball program in the country.

Starting can definitely matter.  Some players are better coming off the bench (Katin), some players struggle off the bench (it appears Luke might be a guy that does), some lineups work better together (it seems like Wojo has found a lineup that works well together to start the game, and has the luxury of having 3 seniors and a lot of scoring ability still on his bench), etc.  If you start the game down 12-2 in the first 4 minutes before your first sub is made that can be the difference in a game, no matter who gets the most minutes throughout the rest of the game.

So if our seniors have us down 12-2, I am sure Wojo will call a time out, most likely before it gets out of hand, and substitute accordingly.

[wadesworld]

So if our seniors have us down 12-2, I am sure Wojo will call a time out, most likely before it gets out of hand, and substitute accordingly.

I would certainly hope so.

I also would certainly hope that Wojo understands that a win against Creighton puts us into the NCAA Tournament and there's no need to risk changing what has worked better than when we were starting our 3 seniors.

This would literally be the first time I had a question about whether Wojo had "it" if he started guys in a must-win game simply so the fans can give them a cheer.

These guys are all contributors.  They've all played before.  They've all heard their names announced in the starting lineups at Marquette before.  They'll all have their families walk onto the court with them to receive their framed jerseys.  And at the end of the game if the game is already decided within the last minute one way or the other, they'll all get to exit the court one last time, one at a time, to a standing ovation.

A win locks us into the NCAA Tournament, somewhere we haven't been in 4 seasons.  A loss puts us squarely on the bubble.  This isn't a team that has its fate decided already.  I don't even care if you start the 3 seniors with Deon and Cam and tell Deon or Cam to foul 1 second into the game to sub all 5 out, you don't do it.  You treat this like it is any other game.  Because at the end of the day that is what it is.  Except that it's the biggest game of the year, and the biggest game of Wojo's coaching career.

[amen426]

I would certainly hope so.

I also would certainly hope that Wojo understands that a win against Creighton puts us into the NCAA Tournament and there's no need to risk changing what has worked better than when we were starting our 3 seniors.

This would literally be the first time I had a question about whether Wojo had "it" if he started guys in a must-win game simply so the fans can give them a cheer.

These guys are all contributors.  They've all played before.  They've all heard their names announced in the starting lineups at Marquette before.  They'll all have their families walk onto the court with them to receive their framed jerseys.  And at the end of the game if the game is already decided within the last minute one way or the other, they'll all get to exit the court one last time, one at a time, to a standing ovation.

A win locks us into the NCAA Tournament, somewhere we haven't been in 4 seasons.  A loss puts us squarely on the bubble.  This isn't a team that has its fate decided already.  I don't even care if you start the 3 seniors with Deon and Cam and tell Deon or Cam to foul 1 second into the game to sub all 5 out, you don't do it.  You treat this like it is any other game.  Because at the end of the day that is what it is.  Except that it's the biggest game of the year, and the biggest game of Wojo's coaching career.

Since when did JJJ and Luke become such great liabilities that they cannot even get on the floor for 2 minutes without automatically causing the team to lose the game.

JJJ's play vs. Xavier showed that he is fully deserving of starting over Duane Wilson. Senior night or not.

Many would argue that Luke is still the better player than Heldt, and should be starting. With that being said, the only issue that you should have with Luke starting is that he'll get his 1st foul 5 minutes earlier than he would if he was sitting on the pine.

That won't really swing the game, because Luke had been averaging a Foul per every 2.9 minutes since he moved to the bench. He's going to foul out no matter where his 15 minutes come from.

This is a stupid argument. We aren't talking about starting a walk-on. We're talking about starting 2 guys who have started many games for the program this season, and during their 4 year career - and are actually BETTER than the players that they would be replacing in the starting lineup.

GTFOH

[wadesworld]

Since when did JJJ and Luke become such great liabilities that they cannot even get on the floor for 2 minutes without automatically causing the team to lose the game.

JJJ's play vs. Xavier showed that he is fully deserving of starting over Duane Wilson. Senior night or not.

Many would argue that Luke is still the better player than Heldt, and should be starting. With that being said, the only issue that you should have with Luke starting is that he'll get his 1st foul 5 minutes earlier than he would if he was sitting on the pine.

That won't really swing the game, because Luke had been averaging a Foul per every 2.9 minutes since he moved to the bench. He's going to foul out no matter where his 15 minutes come from.

This is a stupid argument. We aren't talking about starting a walk-on. We're talking about starting 2 guys who have started many games for the program this season, and during their 4 year career - and are actually BETTER than the players that they would be replacing in the starting lineup.

GTFOH

We are talking about a win and in game and changing up what has worked just to make a couple guys feel good.  But yeah, I'm the one that needs to "GTFOH."

[amen426]

We are talking about a win and in game and changing up what has worked just to make a couple guys feel good.  But yeah, I'm the one that needs to "GTFOH."

It has nothing to do with "making a couple of guys feel good".

JJJ played 27 minutes last game vs. Duane's 13. You think the only reason we won that game was because Duane was on the floor to start?

You're a clown

[brewcity77]

These are two teams that are headed in different directions. Sucks to see a record finish destroyed by injury. I'd bet the house on anything less than -6 Marquette. Good luck

Thanks for the input, CW. Interestingly, my prediction would've been Marquette by 6, so I guess we're on the same page. Watching Watson go down reminded me so much of when we lost Dominic James in 2009. From top-10, Final Four aspirations to afterthought overnight.

Your program has still been a credit to the league, and I'm optimistic going forward with the step up in McDermott's recruiting. Mintz reminds me a ton of when Maurice Acker took over for James, actually. Whip quick and has some ability, but just wasn't ready for that much, that fast. He'll be okay in the long run.

[bilsu]

I think senior night is the one time you can replace a starter with a senior and not have the replaced player be upset. Given how well JJJ and Reinhardt played the last game, I would let them start. I would also tell them they be to the bench quickly, if they start shooting without passing the ball.

[wadesworld]

It has nothing to do with "making a couple of guys feel good".

JJJ played 27 minutes last game vs. Duane's 13. You think the only reason we won that game was because Duane was on the floor to start?

You're a clown

I think it has everything to do with finding a rotation that has worked after losing 4 of 5 games and the only win being against DePaul. So no I don't want to see the rotation changed just to make a few guys feel good that they heard their name over the PA system 1 extra time.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Going with what has worked is absolutely legit....though it didn't work two games ago against Providence

But I also think it is legit if a coach thinks "rewarding my seniors by starting them might give them a mental boost and they might play better. It shouldn't affect my other players because they recognize it is senior night."

Starting is about pushing the right buttons. I can see an argument where starting the seniors is the right one.

Plus, just because something has worked doesn't mean it will always work. We thought the starting lineup was pretty damn good after Nova and then we started to tank. Good coaching is knowing when to a press new button, not waiting for the old one to stop working

In the end, I think the new starting lineup has helped in three of the last four. But I think there are dozens of reasons why we've played better...including the fact that our competition hasn't been the best in the three we won.

[wadesworld]

Going with what has worked is absolutely legit....though it didn't work two games ago against Providence

But I also think it is legit if a coach thinks "rewarding my seniors by starting them might give them a mental boost and they might play better. It shouldn't affect my other players because they recognize it is senior night."

Starting is about pushing the right buttons. I can see an argument where starting the seniors is the right one.

Plus, just because something has worked doesn't mean it will always work. We thought the starting lineup was pretty damn good after Nova and then we started to tank. Good coaching is knowing when to a press new button, not waiting for the old one to stop working

In the end, I think the new starting lineup has helped in three of the last four. But I think there are dozens of reasons why we've played better...including the fact that our competition hasn't been the best in the three we won.

I don't disagree with much of this other than that it didn't work against Providence.  We were up 12 when Markus picked up his 4th foul, sending him to the bench.  All 3 of JJJ, Luke, and Katin were then in until Luke's foul trouble forced him to the bench.  The starting lineup wasn't the issue, the foul trouble was.

And was our competition really any worse than Providence at home, St. John's on the road, DePaul on the road, Butler at home, and Georgetown on the road?  Because that was our schedule when we went 1-4 with our old starting lineup.

[Stretchdeltsig]

It's totally Wojo's call who starts.  The bottom line is that we win.  Nothing else matters.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Turning back to the actual opponent. Gotta chance to watch the Creighton, St. John's game. They seemed to have moved away from Mintz and Clement at the point. They seem to run point by committee. Foster brought the ball up most of the time, Thomas, Mintz, Zierden, and even Harrell all took goes at it. Their half court offense looked pretty inept honestly. They seemed to score a vast majority of their points from live ball stops, free throws, and 2nd chance points. I wouldn't be surprised if they scored less than 20 points in the half court. It didn't matter, because St. John's was so bad on offense that it gave Creighton plenty of transition opportunities.

My personal keys to this game:

1. GET BACK ON DEFENSE. Can't be emphasized enough. When Creighton rebounds, they are immediately looking to push. Foster and Thomas are deadly in transition. Fortunately, if Marquette's offense is humming, it will limit their opportunities.

2. Keep them off the offensive boards. Creighton scored a lot on unchallenged put backs. This one is easier said the done with a monster like Patton and big guards like Thomas.

3. When they get in the paint, everyone else needs to stay home with their man. I think I saw a Creighton post player score off an entry pass once. They are not very good at scoring with their back to the basket. However, they do hit open shooters when they get doubled. Similarly, their slashers don't finish well one on one. What they do do to perfection is dump off to the bigs when the opponent's big rotates to help. When they get in the paint, stay at home and then crash the boards.

4. The only one who can consistently create his own shot is Foster. He hits lots of threes, but is more deadly off the bounce. Sag off him and turn him into a jumpshooter.

5. I don't think I saw Creighton run a pick and roll once. I don't know if that was a matchup thing with St. John's or if its just not part of McDermott's system. Given the PT article, that is very good news for us.

6. Patton is very prone to foul trouble. Luke did a good job on him last time out. I wouldn't mind feeding him a couple of times early to try and get a couple on Patton. He bites on shot fakes most of the time. Get him out so they lose their rebounding edge and then run the offense we've been running for the last 4.

7. Pressure the ball handlers, as long as you can do it without fouling. Foster, Thomas and Zierden are not point guards. Foster/Thomas panic against pressure and Zierden simply doesn't have the agility to get around it.

8. Our best defense against Creighton is our offense. They need transition to score. If we are making most of our buckets like we have been in the last 4 games, we limit their opportunities. We can handle their half court offense.

Suggested Matchups:
Foster- JJJ/Duane
Thomas/Harrell- Haanif/Katin
Zierden/Mintz- Markus/Rowsey
Huff/Hegner- Hauser
Patton/Hanson/Krampelj- Fischer/Heldt

[Jay Bee]

Start them

[real chili 83]

What he said. ^^^^^^^^^^

[amen426]

There's zero credence to this.

I'm all for starting Jajuan and Luke. They've been with the program 4 years. Wojo will absolutely start them on Saturday. I would put money on it.

As expected - JJJ & Fischer back in the starting lineup, along with Howard, Rowsey and Howard.

Reinhardt coming off the bench.

wadesworld losing all respect for Wojo. If we lose, this starting lineup will be the cause.

[wadesworld]

As expected - JJJ & Fischer back in the starting lineup, along with Howard, Rowsey and Howard.

Reinhardt coming off the bench.

wadesworld losing all respect for Wojo. If we lose, this starting lineup will be the cause.

Who said losing all respect for Wojo?  Odd.

Horrible decision.  Let's hope the boys show up ready to play.

[wadesworld]

Katin gets it.  Went to Wojo and told him he's comfortable and playing well off the bench.  Didn't want to start.

[amen426]

This would literally be the first time I had a question about whether Wojo had "it" if he started guys in a must-win game simply so the fans can give them a cheer.

This would be what I was referring to.

What was Wojo thinking. Hopefully he sits JJJ in the 2nd half.

[wadesworld]

This would be what I was referring to.

What was Wojo thinking. Hopefully he sits JJJ in the 2nd half.

I'm still struggling to find where I ever said I was losing all respect for Wojo.  Don't see it in the quote you provided.

Glad the entire team has played a great first half.  Let's put together 20 more minutes of Warriors basketball and go dancing!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Horrible decision.  Let's hope the boys show up ready to play.

So in hindsight, was it still a horrible decision? Looks like the right buttons were pressed!