Badgers exhausted Saturday?

[Lennys Tap]

OK, for a more important question - is Lenny's Tap still around? Now, that was a bar! It was a place where heartache wasn't a stranger and the sting of cheap booze somehow only eased but never cured life's agony. A heady mixture of sweat, cigarette smoke, body odor, and the stale perfume of the tart whose ass was wrapped around her bar stool and her cherry red lips around the head of a PBR bottle. It was a place Al would have been proud to drink at and probably did. Where dreams died and agony thrived through the gauzy fog of one last unfiltered Camel. Of all the gin joints in Milwaukee...

There were 8 million stories in the Naked City and at least that many at Lenny's Tap. I lived at 932 N, 18th St my junior year - a short walk/crawl to Lenny's. The broken dreams of the locals dominated by day but gave way to a more interesting mix after sundown. Sarah (Lenny's lovely bride) shooed the more aggresive of the regulars away from the college girls who had the courage or bad judgement to drop in. Lenny was mentor/father figure to many - I'm fortunate to be included in that group. He introduced me to the joys and agonies of gambling and was generous in sharing its nuances. I remember he made what I thought then was a fortune when the Mets won the the pennant and World Series in 69. He routinely loaned money to his "student regulars" and told me not one of them ever stiffed him. They tore the place down (maybe the late 70's) and Lenny and Sarah moved to Florida. The going away party was nothing short of amazing - like 30 classes at one huge reunion.

[Big Papi]

Wait, this can't be....why have a 10 man rotation then.     We're obviously over recruiting since we don't need all these guys, since fatigue isn't an issue...an extra 5 minutes is nothing per game.  

Wow you really are a dope.  In meaningful tight games, the majority of teams will shorten their bench to 7-8 players.  Why is that?  They are obviously not worried about fatigue but want to win a game.  Actual 9-10 man rotations are great when your playing 40 minutes of hell.  9-10 man rotations are great when you are playing patsies and you can afford the opportunity for your bench to gain a little game experience.  Teams that want to win, will play their best players the majority of the game, until a game is decided.  Badgers blow out Grambling St and 10-11 players get in the game.  Badgers play a tight game and they play 7-8.  Everyone does it.  Again, why?  Better chance to win.  Fatigue not much of a factor as again, an extra 5 minutes a game once or twice a week does not make a difference.    

And over recruiting?  Please.  A week ago Buzz couldn't even scrimmage 5v5 because he didn't have enough players.  Now thats crazy.  Only having 8 players to practice.  Additionally, having a deep bench comes in handy when there is foul trouble and injuries.  Also, a deep bench allows for greater flexibility when coaching a game.  Maybe a coach needs a defensive stopper to go against a hot hand.  Maybe needs to go big because they are getting killed on the glass.  Maybe they need an extra ball handler down the stretch.  Thats why coaches use 9-10 players.  Buzz does not have that luxury.  

And any one watching the Syracuse Florida game?  Syracuse has played 7 players and Florida 8 in the first half of a tight game.  With no foul trouble.  I don't think either coach is worried about fatigue as I don't see them going 10 deep.

[Big Papi]

Ok, but we are talking about a couple different things here.  Playing 7 guys definitely has an impact in that game.  Those 7 guys are going to experience more fatigue than 10.

Also, what about impact on joints the constant cutting, jumping, landing, and twisting.  I do think those things carry over.  Why do rookies struggle with an 82 game season?  Aren't they young guys in phenomenal shape? 

Rookies struggle because they go from 1-2 games a week to 3-4 games a week.  Rookies struggle because they go from a 30-35 game season to 82 plus season. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ay caramba....I was being sarcastic about the over recruitment, thought that was plenty clear.  Yes, I know teams shorten benches for "critical" games, the problem is that we were shortening it the ENTIRE tournament and it cost us at the end.  When you know going in that you're playing 3 games in 4 days, shouldn't a light bulb go on to play more guys?  Especially when you played two days earlier?

When we're up 17 points on FSU, do you think maybe we can put a guy in to get someone else a blow?  When we're up 15 points on Michigan, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?  When we're up 11 points against NC State a week later, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?

I don't think anyone is asking for that much or in jeopardizing the team.

The Syracuse - Florida game is kind of ridiculous on several counts.  One, it's not part of 3 games in 4 days like we had.  Two, you adjust your bench on the conditions of the game.  When you're up 17 points, it ALLOWS you to expand your bench (just as you stated earlier).  When games are tight, you don't.  Problem is, we were up big against Michigan, FSU and NC State and decided that we were going to not expand that bench, even though that's when you do it. 

This is not hard.

[Big Papi]

Ay caramba....I was being sarcastic about the over recruitment, thought that was plenty clear.  Yes, I know teams shorten benches for "critical" games, the problem is that we were shortening it the ENTIRE tournament and it cost us at the end.  When you know going in that you're playing 3 games in 4 days, shouldn't a light bulb go on to play more guys?  Especially when you played two days earlier?

When we're up 17 points on FSU, do you think maybe we can put a guy in to get someone else a blow?  When we're up 15 points on Michigan, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?  When we're up 11 points against NC State a week later, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?

I don't think anyone is asking for that much or in jeopardizing the team.

They came out of halftime of the NC State game and got outscored 11-2.  There was no fatigue involved in that run.  They were sitting in the locker room. RESTING.  Yes they were probably tired playing 3 games in 4 days but again 5 minutes of EWill on the floor in the Michigan game was not going help anyone.  And who else did you want to throw out there? Yous?  ughhh.  Frozena?  ughhhh.  And that 15 point Michigan lead.  I don't know about you but I never felt comfortable until the bitter end.  You play to win today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  Otherwise you can very easily losethe game today you think you have in hand.

[warthog-driver]

There were 8 million stories in the Naked City and at least that many at Lenny's Tap. I lived at 932 N, 18th St my junior year - a short walk/crawl to Lenny's. The broken dreams of the locals dominated by day but gave way to a more interesting mix after sundown. Sarah (Lenny's lovely bride) shooed the more aggresive of the regulars away from the college girls who had the courage or bad judgement to drop in. Lenny was mentor/father figure to many - I'm fortunate to be included in that group. He introduced me to the joys and agonies of gambling and was generous in sharing its nuances. I remember he made what I thought then was a fortune when the Mets won the the pennant and World Series in 69. He routinely loaned money to his "student regulars" and told me not one of them ever stiffed him. They tore the place down (maybe the late 70's) and Lenny and Sarah moved to Florida. The going away party was nothing short of amazing - like 30 classes at one huge reunion.

Lenny's was still in full flower into the early '80's so it must have been around 1982 when it fell victim to progress. We patronized Lenny's and the Camel Club (corner of 15th and Kilbourne) both by day and by night. The daytime crowd at either could intimidate a kid from Long Island or Chicago's northern 'burbs with the cold realization that he wasn't in Oak Park anymore. I remember drinking at the Camel at the end of Fall Finals when a fight broke out between two locals, one dressed in some sort of Santa costume, and Santa ended up stabbing his buddy! The cops showed up and they told us with a straight face, "You guys should find somewhere else to drink." Clearly they didn't see the mystique that was the Camel or Lenny's. Sarah was usually tending bar at Lenny's in the afternoon while Lenny held court at night. Lenny's and the Camel were both great watering holes; it's a shame we've lost them. I've wet my whistle in dives from here to Baghdad and I have yet to find the curious blend of pathos and wry wit that defined those two establishments.

[Lennys Tap]

Ay caramba....I was being sarcastic about the over recruitment, thought that was plenty clear.  Yes, I know teams shorten benches for "critical" games, the problem is that we were shortening it the ENTIRE tournament and it cost us at the end.  When you know going in that you're playing 3 games in 4 days, shouldn't a light bulb go on to play more guys?  Especially when you played two days earlier?

When we're up 17 points on FSU, do you think maybe we can put a guy in to get someone else a blow?  When we're up 15 points on Michigan, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?  When we're up 11 points against NC State a week later, do you think we could put someone in to get a guy a blow?

I don't think anyone is asking for that much or in jeopardizing the team.

The Syracuse - Florida game is kind of ridiculous on several counts.  One, it's not part of 3 games in 4 days like we had.  Two, you adjust your bench on the conditions of the game.  When you're up 17 points, it ALLOWS you to expand your bench (just as you stated earlier).  When games are tight, you don't.  Problem is, we were up big against Michigan, FSU and NC State and decided that we were going to not expand that bench, even though that's when you do it. 

This is not hard.

You're right Chicos. This is not hard. This is easy. Only a moron couldn't figure this out. But just because you think Buzz is too dense to grasp this elementary concept doesn't mean you think he's stupid. How could anyone ever get that idea?

[MUSF]

Rookies struggle because they go from 1-2 games a week to 3-4 games a week.  Rookies struggle because they go from a 30-35 game season to 82 plus season. 

And college players don't play significantly more than they did in high school?  Pre-season, practice, post-season.  All of that increases from high school to college

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny's was still in full flower into the early '80's so it must have been around 1982 when it fell victim to progress. We patronized Lenny's and the Camel Club (corner of 15th and Kilbourne) both by day and by night. The daytime crowd at either could intimidate a kid from Long Island or Chicago's northern 'burbs with the cold realization that he wasn't in Oak Park anymore. I remember drinking at the Camel at the end of Fall Finals when a fight broke out between two locals, one dressed in some sort of Santa costume, and Santa ended up stabbing his buddy! The cops showed up and they told us with a straight face, "You guys should find somewhere else to drink." Clearly they didn't see the mystique that was the Camel or Lenny's. Sarah was usually tending bar at Lenny's in the afternoon while Lenny held court at night. Lenny's and the Camel were both great watering holes; it's a shame we've lost them. I've wet my whistle in dives from here to Baghdad and I have yet to find the curious blend of pathos and wry wit that defined those two establishments.

You're right about the closing date. In my dottage I sometimes lose large clumps of time. I never had the pleasure of hoisting one at the Camel. Don't remember it being there from 66 -70. Like you, I've always had an affinity for dive bars. Maybe it was partly right time right place, but Lenny's remains at the top of my list. Nice to know that there were men with discerning tastes such as yourself to carry on a Marquette tradition.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're right Chicos. This is not hard. This is easy. Only a moron couldn't figure this out. But just because you think Buzz is too dense to grasp this elementary concept doesn't mean you think he's stupid. How could anyone ever get that idea?

There are at LEAST 10 other posters that have said the same thing, but I guess I'm the only one that believes this.  Funny how that works.

And no, I don't think Buzz is stupid, you used those words.  I think he's stubborn, like many coaches I've encountered.  Doesn't make them stupid, but I'm sure you will also yield that it doesn't make the geniuses either.  Coaches make mistakes just like stock analysts, financial planners, athletic directors, vice presidents of marketing, teachers, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They came out of halftime of the NC State game and got outscored 11-2.  There was no fatigue involved in that run.  They were sitting in the locker room. RESTING.  Yes they were probably tired playing 3 games in 4 days but again 5 minutes of EWill on the floor in the Michigan game was not going help anyone.  And who else did you want to throw out there? Yous?  ughhh.  Frozena?  ughhhh.  And that 15 point Michigan lead.  I don't know about you but I never felt comfortable until the bitter end.  You play to win today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  Otherwise you can very easily losethe game today you think you have in hand.

You play to win tonight, agreed.  You also need to play for the season.  Wasn't many of the complaints by people here that we were gassed by the end of the season in the previous regime?

[Lennys Tap]

You play to win tonight, agreed.  You also need to play for the season.  Wasn't many of the complaints by people here that we were gassed by the end of the season in the previous regime?

The complaints about the previous regime leaving us gassed revolved around (alleged) long, physical, football type practices (full contact, pads, etc.) late into the season. Don't know if these gripes were legit, but I don't recall TC getting blasted for trying too hard to win games. Big difference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The complaints about the previous regime leaving us gassed revolved around (alleged) long, physical, football type practices (full contact, pads, etc.) late into the season. Don't know if these gripes were legit, but I don't recall TC getting blasted for trying too hard to win games. Big difference.

That's because he typically played more guys in his rotation.  Let's see how a 3 game tournament was handled then...Even in a "critical" game against Duke, as an example, he played 9 guys more than 10 minutes.  Against Oklahoma State in a "critical" game, played 12 guys...the first game of the tournament...10 guys played.  Why?  Because 3 games in 3 days means trying to get guys a blow.  Even in the NCAA tournament games....9 guys playing.  Big East Tournament...11 guys playing.

Did we have more talent then?  Absolutely.  No one is denying this. All people are asking, and I'm far from the only one, is why a few other guys weren't playing to spell our guys.  For this OUTRAGEOUS question, people are taken to task.  Why?  It's a legitimate question.  

It is possible to like Buzz and Crean....I hope you realize this. I don't think you do, but it is possible.

PS Crean was blasted for everything, including trying to win games.

[warthog-driver]

You're right about the closing date. In my dottage I sometimes lose large clumps of time. I never had the pleasure of hoisting one at the Camel. Don't remember it being there from 66 -70. Like you, I've always had an affinity for dive bars. Maybe it was partly right time right place, but Lenny's remains at the top of my list. Nice to know that there were men with discerning tastes such as yourself to carry on a Marquette tradition.

The affinity for cutting the trail dust in a well lubed dive extends beyond the Marquette experience. I have found kindred spirits throughout the ranks of attack aviators over these past two decades. Men who have looked death squarely in the eye and lived to talk about it, preferrably in the dank, humid air of a seedy watering hole. Whether it's been nursing Singhas in Pattaya Beach or knocking back Tuskers at Chewbaccas in Mombasa, Kenya (where our buddy Ima Cummin was slapped by an outraged German woman,) there is something about the dive bar experience that makes the malted beverage that much more refreshing. We've thrown back San Miguels and eaten Balut while watching smiles played at Marylin's Blow Heaven on the shores of Subic Bay, savored the crispness of iced OB's in Itaewon, and inhaled Bass Ale in the Green Zone with mortar rounds crashing around us. In every case, the beer was somehow colder and more satisfying when served by the woman in spandex with the bare midriff top exposing multiple rolls of flab. Ah, the memories.    

[Lennys Tap]

There are at LEAST 10 other posters that have said the same thing, but I guess I'm the only one that believes this.  Funny how that works.

And no, I don't think Buzz is stupid, you used those words.  I think he's stubborn, like many coaches I've encountered.  Doesn't make them stupid, but I'm sure you will also yield that it doesn't make the geniuses either.  Coaches make mistakes just like stock analysts, financial planners, athletic directors, vice presidents of marketing, teachers, etc.

We have 11 players on the team. I think you'll agree Rob Frozena is not ready to become part of the rotation. You're on record saying Mbao is totally lost on the court. Eight guys are in the rotation. Erik Williams would be nine, but the guy who sees him every day and is in charge doesn't think he's quite ready. Says he's making good progress but he has to earn his minutes. He doesn't want to destroy Erik's confidence or hurt the team's chances of winning by playing him before he's ready. You (and others) disagree. Fair enough. But you alone are condescending, saying this isn't hard (though evidently too hard for Buzz and the posters who don't buy the idea that a nine man rotation is necessary, not to mention coaches like Bo Ryan, Al McGuire, Coach K etc.)

Like anyone else, I want to see Erik Williams play and succeed. So does Buzz Williams. So do you.Of the three of us who do you think is best equipped to determine when that should be? Now there's something that's (to borrow your phrase) not hard.

[Marquette84]

They came out of halftime of the NC State game and got outscored 11-2.  There was no fatigue involved in that run.  They were sitting in the locker room. RESTING.  Yes they were probably tired playing 3 games in 4 days but again 5 minutes of EWill on the floor in the Michigan game was not going help anyone.  And who else did you want to throw out there? Yous?  ughhh.  Frozena?  ughhhh.  And that 15 point Michigan lead.  I don't know about you but I never felt comfortable until the bitter end.  You play to win today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  Otherwise you can very easily losethe game today you think you have in hand.

There is no question that fatigue was the factor against FSU. Keep in mind we only needed one more defense stop, or one more made basket, or one fewer turnover, or two more made free throws.  I think five minutes less playing time for Butler and Hayward would have delivered at least one of those.

The irony here is that Buzz DID compensate for the fatigue we saw  against FSU when he designed the game plan for NC State--but unfortunately it took away our advantage.  Where was our full-court press we saw in the FSU game when we played NC State?  Where were our transition baskets?  Were was our stifling/pressing defense?  Where was the aggressive offense?  All quite visible against FSU, and missing vs. NCState. 

It appears that Buzz chose to preserve the energy of the starters by taking away the things that helped us build the big lead vs. FSU (and win versus X and M).

When you claim that our guys weren't fatigued against NC State, you're right.  However, they weren't playing like they did in Orlando either. They slowed down.  Way down.

Our advantage is speed--we aren't going to be able to leverage it in a half-court game. 

So far we've tried two options:
1.  Play a fast paced game using a short roster.  Result--FSU Loss
2.  Play a slower paced game to preserve the energy of the short roster.  Result--NCSU Loss

What we haven't tried
3.  Play a fast paced game and go 9 deep, with Williams getting at least 10-12 mpg to help keep Butler & Hayward fresh.

[Lennys Tap]

There is no question that fatigue was the factor against FSU. Keep in mind we only needed one more defense stop, or one more made basket, or one fewer turnover, or two more made free throws.  I think five minutes less playing time for Butler and Hayward would have delivered at least one of those.

The irony here is that Buzz DID compensate for the fatigue we saw  against FSU when he designed the game plan for NC State--but unfortunately it took away our advantage.  Where was our full-court press we saw in the FSU game when we played NC State?  Where were our transition baskets?  Were was our stifling/pressing defense?  Where was the aggressive offense?  All quite visible against FSU, and missing vs. NCState.  

It appears that Buzz chose to preserve the energy of the starters by taking away the things that helped us build the big lead vs. FSU (and win versus X and M).

When you claim that our guys weren't fatigued against NC State, you're right.  However, they weren't playing like they did in Orlando either. They slowed down.  Way down.

Our advantage is speed--we aren't going to be able to leverage it in a half-court game.  

So far we've tried two options:
1.  Play a fast paced game using a short roster.  Result--FSU Loss
2.  Play a slower paced game to preserve the energy of the short roster.  Result--NCSU Loss

What we haven't tried
3.  Play a fast paced game and go 9 deep, with Williams getting at least 10-12 mpg to help keep Butler & Hayward fresh.

Maymon was out of the NC State game with a hip injury so #3 was impossible. Since you claim playing a fast paced game with 8 (+Williams - Maymon) doesn't work, #1 was also a non starter. By your logic Buzz had no choice but to go to #2 and slow it down vs NC State whether Erik played (8) or not (7).

[Big Papi]

You play to win tonight, agreed.  You also need to play for the season.  Wasn't many of the complaints by people here that we were gassed by the end of the season in the previous regime?

Well I guess Duke and Wisconsin are going to suck at the end of the year than too.  Buzz handled that 4 game in 6 days stretch as well as anyone could have handled considering the roster he had.  Do you realize that Hayward averaged 27 minutes.  Butler averaged 31 minutes.  DJO averaged 31 minutes.  Buycks averaged 29.

Now lets look at a team from the west that had a similar situation.  3 games in 3 days.  Bohanan 35 minutes.  Hughes 34 minutes.  Nankivil 26 minutes and Leuer averaged 24 minutes but that was skewed because he FOULED OUT in 10 minutes of action.  Hmmm interesting.

Now lets look at Duke.  They have played 3 straight fairly difficult games.  Lets look at the minutes of their 3 best players and their minutes.  Scheyer averaged OH MY GOSH, 38 minutes.  Singler averaged I CAN'T BELIEVE IT 37 mnutes and Smith averaged 36 minutes.  

Yea fatigue plays a huge factor.  

[warthog-driver]

Well I guess Duke and Wisconsin are going to suck at the end of the year than too.  Buzz handled that 4 game in 6 days stretch as well as anyone could have handled considering the roster he had.  Do you realize that Hayward averaged 27 minutes.  Butler averaged 31 minutes.  DJO averaged 31 minutes.  Buycks averaged 29.

Now lets look at a team from the west that had a similar situation.  3 games in 3 days.  Bohanan 35 minutes.  Hughes 34 minutes.  Nankivil 26 minutes and Leuer averaged 24 minutes but that was skewed because he FOULED OUT in 10 minutes of action.  Hmmm interesting.

Now lets look at Duke.  They have played 3 straight fairly difficult games.  Lets look at the minutes of their 3 best players and their minutes.  Scheyer averaged OH MY GOSH, 38 minutes.  Singler averaged I CAN'T BELIEVE IT 37 mnutes and Smith averaged 36 minutes.  

Yea fatigue plays a huge factor.  

This topic has more more legs than What is Life...I'd like to think Fr Davitt is up there watching and smiling

[Big Papi]

Seeing that this topic has gone on and on, thought maybe I was missing something.  Is Buzz playing our players way too many minutes?  Does Coach K, Calhoun and Bo, 3 of the winningest coaches in the history of college basketball, play their players a lot less minutes.  What about Beilin and Calipari?  I decided to look up stats for minutes played this year.  Unfortunately I could only find a top 100 but surely, Hayward, Butler and DJO must be in the top 10 for minutes played.  If not, top 50 for sure.  Nope.  No one is in the top 100.  But who is in the top 100.  How about Scheyer at 36mpg, Manny Harris at 35.5mpg, Jason Bohanan at 35mpg, John Wall at 34.6, Nolan Smith at 34.6mpg, Kemba Walker at 34.5mpg.  

This topic about fatigue is laughable.  I ended up narrowing it to the Big East. And here is where our top players rank in minutes per game.  Butler is #20, Cubillian is #33, Buycks is #39 and Hayward is #45.  

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/minutes_avg?games=1&conf=big-east&season=2009-2010

At least find anther topic, a legit topic, to blast Buzz on.  This issue should be dead!

You play to win games.  You play your best players.  Teams that have a deep bench will play their stars less. 

And the dig on Crean and their swoon at the end of the year was more geared towards his intense practices at the end of the year and not minutes played in games.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz handled that 4 game in 6 days stretch as well as anyone could have handled considering the roster he had.  

We will agree to disagree.  Williams should have played more in my opinion.  The fact he didn't play at all against NC State is mind boggling.

You really believe fatigue is a non-issue in that tournament.  Really?  Sorry, not buying it and neither were the announcers or our lying eyes watching the players lethargy down the stretch. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Minutes per game for the Big East is silly comparison as applied to the tournament which is what we were talking about.  You know we have 4 games in 6 days including 3 in 4.  When you're up 17 points you are given a gift from heaven....use it.  Give some guys a blow.  When you're up 15 against Michigan, give some guys a blow.
 

You seem to be truly saying you don't believe fatigue was a factor in that FSU game which is mind boggling.

[Big Papi]

Minutes per game for the Big East is silly comparison as applied to the tournament which is what we were talking about.  You know we have 4 games in 6 days including 3 in 4.  When you're up 17 points you are given a gift from heaven....use it.  Give some guys a blow.  When you're up 15 against Michigan, give some guys a blow.

You seem to be truly saying you don't believe fatigue was a factor in that FSU game which is mind boggling.

I see you didn't really read my post or just can't comprehend.  I did compare our tourny and 4 games in 6 days to Bucky who played 3 games in 3 days against good competition.  A team that has more players and is deeper than us.  And the out come was that our top players played less minutes per game in 4 games out of 6 days than Bucky did in 3 games in 3 days.

You really wanted Hayward to play less than 27 minutes per game?  Butler less than 31 minutes per game?  Buycks less than 29 minutes per game.  That is the minutes they played.  Compared to Bohanan 35 minutes per game.  Hughes 34 minutes per game.  And Coach K playing his best players 34 plus minutes per game consistently against patsies or tougher teams.

EWill will play and get minutes when his defense improves and when he studies and follows the scouting report which at this point in time is a problem.  But I guess we will agree to disagree.

[ChicosBailBonds]

OK, fair enough....I'm still trying to get an answer out of the question.  Do you think MU was fatigued in the FSU game?

[Lennys Tap]

Minutes per game for the Big East is silly comparison as applied to the tournament which is what we were talking about.  You know we have 4 games in 6 days including 3 in 4.  When you're up 17 points you are given a gift from heaven....use it.  Give some guys a blow.  When you're up 15 against Michigan, give some guys a blow.
 

You seem to be truly saying you don't believe fatigue was a factor in that FSU game which is mind boggling.

20/20 hindsight is amazing. You knew 17 up was our high water mark against FSU so you would have put in Williams at that very moment. Of course if the lead disappeared quickly (like it did against Rutgers last year subbing WAY more experienced players) and we lost momentum and the game I'm sure you would have been the first to come on here rip Buzz for blowing a game that was in the bag. That's the luxury of the second guesser.