One of the weirdest stories out there

[keefe]

Agreed - the overwhelming majority of legitimately transgender people try to be discreet.  The problem is that if society becomes too afraid to ask difficult questions about a person's status, it could ultimately allow pervs who are not legitimately transgender to stroll into the other locker room to catch a peek...and defend their actions by saying "but I consider myself one of the gals."

Asking these difficult questions would actually help transgender people in the long run, because it would help to weed out people with nefarious motives from those with true transgender identities.

Just my $0.02...and as I said, I am not one of those people who are ridiculing or demeaning people who truly have transgender identities.

My wife had a male team member who left Microsoft for a year and returned as a woman. I knew this individual as both a man and a woman. Microsoft sponsored this person's medical leave and had counselors come in and meet with my wife's team over the course of a few months during the person's reintegration into the workplace.

Not everyone understood or accepted this person's decision but Microsoft made very clear that it would not tolerate abuse or harassment as LGBT is considered a protected category. But Microsoft also understood clearly that the impact of Mike coming back to work as Debbie would be traumatic for everyone for a range of reasons in a varying degrees.

When I first saw this person it was at a team social event and I found it extremely odd since I had known Mike and not Debbie. I was neither threatened nor angry. Frankly, I didn't care in any way other than I was growing weary of listening to my wife's nightly stories of a Day in the Life of Debbie at MBD.

When a colleague has a gall bladder operation we express the appropriate level of interest and concern and then get on with our day. When a male colleague returns as a woman it impacts us in a more fundamental and profound way. Anyone who suggests that any discomfort is inappropriate must be ignorant of human nature. It is expected that such a change will affect people. The key is in how we manage those reactions.

[warriorchick]

Agreed - the overwhelming majority of legitimately transgender people try to be discreet.  The problem is that if society becomes too afraid to ask difficult questions about a person's status, it could ultimately allow pervs who are not legitimately transgender to stroll into the other locker room to catch a peek...and defend their actions by saying "but I consider myself one of the gals."

Asking these difficult questions would actually help transgender people in the long run, because it would help to weed out people with nefarious motives from those with true transgender identities.

Just my $0.02...and as I said, I am not one of those people who are ridiculing or demeaning people who truly have transgender identities.

To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.

Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.

[GooooMarquette]

To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.

That would indicate that you've bought into the "once you go black, you never go back" myth.  Hardly grounds for a well-informed comparison.

[Jay Bee]

Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.

These are facts

[Pakuni]

Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.

These are facts

[naginiF]

Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.

These are facts

So you're saying "it's #3".  Thanks for clarifying

"People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight.  If you believe that it's a choice either 1) you met someone who acted as if they were gay (not the same as being gay), 2) you have never actually met a gay person, or 3) you are amazingly ignorant about sexual orientation other than your own.

I'll give you that not so long ago it was a popularly held belief that it could be a choice but understanding and science have shown that to be totally wrong just like white people aren't smarter than black people, women aren't too emotional to serve in the armed forces, having gay service men/women won't destroy moral and gingers aren't unholy soulless demons. 

It's 2015, time to be a bit more enlightened. "

[warriorchick]

That would indicate that you've bought into the "once you go black, you never go back" myth.  Hardly grounds for a well-informed comparison.

My point is, you can't make assumptions about people based on their genitalia.  Unless it is a cis male who is an observant Jew.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person.  It's none of your business.

And you know this because a disturbed child of a friend of yours has identity problems? You're an expert on transgender people?

Your high horse on this is in danger of tipping over.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.

These are facts

You are 100 percent correct.

[warriorchick]

And you know this because a disturbed child of a friend of yours has identity problems? You're an expert on transgender people?

Your high horse on this is in danger of tipping over.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do my best to find out what is considered polite and what isn't.

Katie Couric got excoriated awhile back when she tried to get LaVerne Cox, the transgender star of "Orange is the New Black", to tell her whether or not she had undergone surgery or not.

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2014/01/katie-couric-transgender-laverne-cox

[naginiF]

You are 100 percent correct.

Chick is correct and you and JB need to realize your point of view on this topic is antiquated, ignorant, in the minority, wrong, and flat out hateful.  I don't wish either of you ill will but i do:
- hope you seek out somebody who is truly LGBT and listen to them about who they are and what they experience
- assume you don't use your Christianity as a backing for your position of demeaning others
- hope those in your family, employ, and social circuits that are LGBT have people that are supportive of them

[keefe]

A lot of people using a lot of words to defend their bigotry.

I hope I don't become this closed minded as I age.

that is pretty closed minded of you. really.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chick is correct and you and JB need to realize your point of view on this topic is antiquated, ignorant, in the minority, wrong, and flat out hateful.  I don't wish either of you ill will but i do:
- hope you seek out somebody who is truly LGBT and listen to them about who they are and what they experience
- assume you don't use your Christianity as a backing for your position of demeaning others
- hope those in your family, employ, and social circuits that are LGBT have people that are supportive of them

It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.

[naginiF]

It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.

Not knowing who Anne Heche is I used 'the Google' to search "Anne Heche POV on sexuality" and found that yes she was in a same sex relationship with Ellen but now is married to a man.  The top result was an ABCnews article  (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124037) where she talks about sexual abuse from her father.  I have no idea if this story is accurate (never met Anne, Ellen, Anne's father, or the author of the article) but it seems plausible that the one example you hold up as proof is questionable due to horrible circumstance.  I ask you again......unless you know Anne personally, talk to a non media GLBT person.

You use the word odd 5 times in the last 4 sentences **note - hard to tell due to the lack of spacing and proliferation of periods** I ask that you read Keefe's post on the acceptance of a transgender person back into Microsoft's workforce.  He nails the fact that it is odd but there are ways us straights can get help in understanding.

Edit:  Sorry.....Yes, it's ignorant!

[ZiggysFryBoy]

To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.

Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.

For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down.   

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do my best to find out what is considered polite and what isn't.

Katie Couric got excoriated awhile back when she tried to get LaVerne Cox, the transgender star of "Orange is the New Black", to tell her whether or not she had undergone surgery or not.

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2014/01/katie-couric-transgender-laverne-cox

I'm an older dude. Didn't know any gays growing up. Now I know several, but it has taken me some time to come around to being able to acknowledge it as being an acceptable...lifestyle. (See - I'm not even sure about the correct word to put there.) But I educated myself and have come to that point as that is the direction society is going. I kind of accept it with a shrug of my shoulders, and relate to these people as I would if they were hetero.

I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue.  I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.

As to courage, I suppose Jenner deserves some credit for empowering those similarly situated. especially youth. But if he's doing it because she (see...progress!) is an attention whore and the empowerment is an unintentional byproduct, much less so. I think her level of courage pales to some of the other examples used.

I remember there was once just a Gay Liberation movement. Then it morphed into the LGBT movement. I have to give the transgender community credit for how they were able to hook their wagon to the larger gay movement and really are bootstrapping their way to acceptability.

[keefe]

For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down.   

I actually just say I am from the knees down...

[muwarrior69]

There is no comparison between Malala and Jenner. Hers is a remarkable story. She risks her own life fighting for the rights and dignity of millions of others. Bruce Jenner grandstands what should be a very personal, private identity self-issue that has very little relevance for anyone.

To honor Malala as courageous then characterize Jenner's 'struggle' as having some equivalent nobility is ludicrous. Malala is a champion of human rights and is fighting truth, justice, and the legitimate inherent dignity of every person. Jenner is a self-absorbed, churlish boor cynically capitalizing on his psychological demons.

   

Here is another opinion supporting your view and calling out ESPN's sensationalism.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2015/06/03/paul-daugherty-espys-courage-award-should-go-to-lauren-hill/28428797/

[GGGG]

Wow ESPN is being sensational?  Stop the presses...

[GGGG]

Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.

These are facts

Some people choose to engage in homosexual acts.  That doesn't make them gay.

[chapman]

Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.

It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.

Agree.  And "some" being a key word.  It's a minority, but suggesting 100% either way is absurd.

[JWags85]

I think its helpful to remember, according Alfred Kinsey who has some of the most thorough research on the subject, sexuality and preference is a scale.  Its not black and white.  A relationship or feelings can be the result of many things but doesn't necessarily disprove preference, especially when factors such as previous emotional trauma in the case of Heche come into play.  Hey, Elton John was married once, totally straight, clearly he chose to be gay later...

I'm an older dude. Didn't know any gays growing up. Now I know several, but it has taken me some time to come around to being able to acknowledge it as being an acceptable...lifestyle. (See - I'm not even sure about the correct word to put there.) But I educated myself and have come to that point as that is the direction society is going. I kind of accept it with a shrug of my shoulders, and relate to these people as I would if they were hetero.

I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue.  I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.

As to courage, I suppose Jenner deserves some credit for empowering those similarly situated. especially youth. But if he's doing it because she (see...progress!) is an attention whore and the empowerment is an unintentional byproduct, much less so. I think her level of courage pales to some of the other examples used.

I remember there was once just a Gay Liberation movement. Then it morphed into the LGBT movement. I have to give the transgender community credit for how they were able to hook their wagon to the larger gay movement and really are bootstrapping their way to acceptability.

I think your take and perspective is fair and pretty open minded.  The latter is bit unfair.  If you look in history, acceptance of homosexuality was hard enough, transgender is even more tricky.  Until recently, there wasn't the medical ability to make such transformations, so the person was essentially living an uncomfortable existence their entire life.  Additionally, much as how ridiculous we see antiquated views on race now, it was a major sea change at the time.  I feel the acceptance of homosexuality is the civil rights movement of my generation.  And as weird as it is to say, its the most "easily accepted" of the LGBT segment of the population, so I don't think its hooking the wagon as much as its following a logical pattern of social education and acceptance.

And so as not to appear haughty, I'll admit its still a bit "different" for me as well.  I have plenty of gay and lesbian friends/coworkers.  Ive been to gay bars with one of my best friends, actively wingman him as he tries to meet guys.  Its not a big deal.  Again, he's my friend, like Spaniell said, i treat him like he's hetero, but not even that, I just treat him like I would any other human.  But I have very little experience with the transgender community and unfortunately, not all of it has been positive.  But I've learned to be sympathetic to all forms of the human condition, and understanding will come.

[Pakuni]

Some people choose to engage in homosexual acts.  That doesn't make them gay.

Exactly.
Some people seem incapable/unwilling to recognize the distinction.

[warriorchick]

I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue.  I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.

There is a difference between having general information about the different surgical options and choices among trans people and having a "need" to know on an individual basis what a particular person's status is.

There are many reasons why a trans person might still have their original genitals.  They might not be able to afford the surgery.  They may be waiting for surgical techniques to improve.  They may choose never to have the surgery because as long as they are able to express their true gender in every other way, they are fine with things the way they are.

No one needs to know if a trans person is "cut" unless they anticipate having sex with them and need to know what to expect when the clothes come off.  It's no one else's business. Why would that question be any less inappropriate than asking any other person about their genitals?

It seems to be a guy thing to be so focused on this.  There is so much more to gender identity than body parts.  I mean, if any of you fellas had the misfortune of losing your junk in an unfortunate industrial accident, would you still consider yourself to be a man?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Being a Lesbian trapped in a man's body I can sympathize with Jenner's transition.