The 2 guards tonight

[GGGG]

I think a little "drama" is OK - got outscored by 20 from the field, and there were a lot of Southern people gone from the NCAA rep. Plus, it's not likely we are going to continue to get 3 and a half times the free throws of our opponent - and we missed 20 of them. Better start practicing free throws.

Getting outscored by 20 from the field is a pretty meaningless statistic.  I am sure that Marquette would have outscored them if they hadn't been fouled so much on every possession. 

[lab_warrior]

Wait wait wait…CONCERN TROLLING after one game?! 



Also, Mayo played very well.  I'm not sure what game
some folks criticizing the kid were watching. 

[MarquetteDano]

The fact that Buzz played Jake Thomas 22 minutes last night was very telling.  Yes, as the freshmen gain experience his minutes will reduce, but he is going to be a key player on this team.  I think Buzz realizes with our interior threats, we need a three point sniper.  Thomas is going to be one of them.

Once Duane Wilson got injured, Thomas became even more important.  I think Thomas will end up averaging 12-15 minutes a game, and probably 4-5 points per game.  He needs a breakout game to get his game confidence back and from that point he will be a key contributor to this team.

[GGGG]

At what point are we going to stop saying that Jake is going to be a three point shooter?  He is going to get minutes because he is smart, hustles and gets himself in the right place.  But I really don't think he is ever going to be much of an offensive threat at this level.

[brewcity77]

I think a little "drama" is OK - got outscored by 20 from the field, and there were a lot of Southern people gone from the NCAA rep. Plus, it's not likely we are going to continue to get 3 and a half times the free throws of our opponent - and we missed 20 of them. Better start practicing free throws.

Let's pull out the most meaningless statistic of the game. So here's my question for you...why did we get outscored by 20 from the field? Is it because they outshot us? No...actually we shot a higher percentage. The reason, and it's a very simple one, is because they were hacking the hell out of us all night long and sending us to the line. When you hack someone, then they miss, they go to the foul line. The shot attempt doesn't count but you get two free throws. Are those points somehow worth less than if they hadn't hacked and the shot had gone in?

Southern tried to turn it into a brawl. Even on the shots that there weren't called fouls, there was still hacking. Our shooting percentage was low (but still higher than theirs) because they were hacking us. We were outscored from the field because we were at the line and because Buzz's team did an excellent job of guarding without fouling.

This is the reality of the new rules. Teams will have to catch up and realize refs are going to call everything. MU is already playing that way, and kudos to the coaching staff for that. Until teams figure out that you can't hack anymore, we will continue to dominate at the line and likely get outscored from the field. And all the while it happens, their guys will be sitting with foul trouble or simply fouling out and we'll keep on winning games.

[MarquetteDano]

At what point are we going to stop saying that Jake is going to be a three point shooter?  He is going to get minutes because he is smart, hustles and gets himself in the right place.  But I really don't think he is ever going to be much of an offensive threat at this level.

I think by the end of the season he averages one three pointer per game.  Not sure if that qualifies for your "three point shooter".

[statnik]

Get over the drama - it's just one game.

Buzz does this every year and every year the rotation gets settled and we play better as the year goes on.

Past years we played well right from the get-go and throttled our guarantee game equivalent opponents, not the case with this game.  We needed an insane number of free throws (many of which we missed anyway) to be able to win by single digits.  Could be a long year if the only guys who can have a big scoring night are Gardner, Mayo and Jamil Wilson.

[statnik]

I said last night that I thought we'd miss Junior more than Van because in Mayo, we have someone who can directly step into that role. This could very well be a Final Four team. We have the best frontcourt I have ever seen at Marquette and a number of skilled wings. For me, the only question is the point.

If DeWil can facilitate just enough to keep everything going on offense, there's no limit to how far this team can go. At times, Junior was a bit too reckless for MU's own good. I'm hoping with all the options around him, DeWil can be great with a more restrained game.

Until we see the newcomers step up in an actual game time situation (be it against good or mediocre teams), a Final Four has to be considered close to a pipe dream.  Last night's game could've been really ugly if we didn't have Davante or Todd.

[PBRme]

I don't get the Jake love.  3 point threat ???  He was 0-fer and Mayo was 50%.

I'd play Mayo as many minutes as I could and Jake a backup until JuJuan develops into that role.

[brewcity77]

Past years we played well right from the get-go and throttled our guarantee game equivalent opponents, not the case with this game.

Did you notice that this year's guarantee game was the favorite to win their conference, made the NCAAs last year, and return 2/3 of the team that nearly knocked off Gonzaga last year? They also added a high-major caliber big man in ISU transfer Calvin Godfrey.

We needed an insane number of free throws (many of which we missed anyway) to be able to win by single digits.

Not accurate. We got an insane number of free throws because they hacked our shooters all night long. Seriously, if Southern isn't fouling constantly, we would have had many more field goals and a better FG%. Why is this so hard for people to get?

Could be a long year if the only guys who can have a big scoring night are Gardner, Mayo and Jamil Wilson.

Last year Vander was averaging 6 ppg after 2 games. Oh the panic! He finished averaging over 14 ppg. Taking one snapshot and projecting it over 35-40 games is just silly. Gardner and Mayo likely won't average 20+ ppg, nor will the 10 guys that aren't Gardner/Mayo/Jamil average 8 ppg.

[PE8983]

I also don't get calling Jake a 3-pt shooter.
His percentage is terrible.
How can anyone claim that he's a "streak shooter" - he's never proved it in ANY game situation.
I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would play him tight.
The guy doesn't just miss, he usually misses bad (not even close to going in).

[🏀]

People believe Jake is a three-point shooter because:

1. He made them at South Dakota
2. He's white


There's no actual resemblance of a three-point shooter at this level though.

[NersEllenson]

Until we see the newcomers step up in an actual game time situation (be it against good or mediocre teams), a Final Four has to be considered close to a pipe dream.  Last night's game could've been really ugly if we didn't have Davante or Todd.

Ummm....but we do have Davante and Todd!!  Can't have 10 guys all on fire on a given night.  I love the fact we have a dominant big (finally) and what should be a very good and consistent perimeter player in Todd - and people are worried after one game (not just you Statnik)....

LOVED seeing Mayo get off as think he is a key ingredient to this team making a deep tourney run...and also want for Todd to have and feel great success after all he's been through (mostly of course by his own doing), but he hasn't quit, transferred...he's fighting through it all and that is admirable.

[statnik]

Did you notice that this year's guarantee game was the favorite to win their conference, made the NCAAs last year, and return 2/3 of the team that nearly knocked off Gonzaga last year? They also added a high-major caliber big man in ISU transfer Calvin Godfrey.

Not accurate. We got an insane number of free throws because they hacked our shooters all night long. Seriously, if Southern isn't fouling constantly, we would have had many more field goals and a better FG%. Why is this so hard for people to get?

Last year Vander was averaging 6 ppg after 2 games. Oh the panic! He finished averaging over 14 ppg. Taking one snapshot and projecting it over 35-40 games is just silly. Gardner and Mayo likely won't average 20+ ppg, nor will the 10 guys that aren't Gardner/Mayo/Jamil average 8 ppg.

I did forget that Southern almost beat Gonzaga, for some reason, but that still doesn't mean I'm not worried.  Unlike Vander last year, who had the talent and two years experience prior, all the candidates to step up besides the three I mentioned are either inexperienced or not that talented (Jake Thomas, Chris Otule, etc.).  I think it is a very legitimate concern that we might only have three solid scorers, and only one really reliable one (Gardner).

[wadesworld]

Ummm....but we do have Davante and Todd!!  Can't have 10 guys all on fire on a given night.  I love the fact we have a dominant big (finally) and what should be a very good and consistent perimeter player in Todd - and people are worried after one game (not just you Statnik)....

LOVED seeing Mayo get off as think he is a key ingredient to this team making a deep tourney run...and also want for Todd to have and feel great success after all he's been through (mostly of course by his own doing), but he hasn't quit, transferred...he's fighting through it all and that is admirable.

Woah woah woah, let's relax here.  Davante is 6'8", he's a switchable.  And he's a 2 star so he can't be considered good.

In reality, I didn't mean to knock on Todd for his play last night, he played a great game and again he is one of the few that can create a shot for himself.  He also did play some great defense, thought he was really active which was good to see.  My only problem is that he literally doesn't pass the ball.  While over the past few years we love to have that one trailer just run from the defensive side of the ball to the top of the key and catch a swing pass and if the 3's wide open take it otherwise give a quick swing pass to the other wing, Todd would catch the ball, not see an open shot, and then try to drive it through the defense.  My problem is that the ball's not going to be falling like it was for him last night every game, and the defense isn't going to be as soft on helping when he beats his defender every game.  What is Todd going to do when his first 3 options (shoot, shoot, and shoot) aren't open?  It's not even that Todd isn't passing to create for others, it's that he's just not even passing within the offense.  I doubt Buzz ran a play for Mayo every time down the floor.  Can anybody else remember him passing the ball more than 5 times?  Most guards do that in about 3 or 4 trips down the court.

[79Warrior]

At what point are we going to stop saying that Jake is going to be a three point shooter?  He is going to get minutes because he is smart, hustles and gets himself in the right place.  But I really don't think he is ever going to be much of an offensive threat at this level.

Completely agree. He is not a three point threat at all playing at this level. He might hit them practice, but it is not happening in games.

[brewcity77]

I did forget that Southern almost beat Gonzaga, for some reason, but that still doesn't mean I'm not worried.  Unlike Vander last year, who had the talent and two years experience prior, all the candidates to step up besides the three I mentioned are either inexperienced or not that talented (Jake Thomas, Chris Otule, etc.).  I think it is a very legitimate concern that we might only have three solid scorers, and only one really reliable one (Gardner).

Just because Juan Anderson and Steve Taylor didn't make a dent on the scoresheet doesn't mean they are inexperienced or not talented. Otule is definitely talented. He's not a scoring force but if you don't think he steps up, especially on the defensive end, you need to start watching when the other team has the ball. And honestly, I think Jamil is more reliable than Gardner. He's not as vociferous, but he goes out and gets his double-digits every night. I hope Mayo finds that kind of reliability, and feel that between Taylor, Anderson, and the freshmen, there are at least 2-3 guys that can put up some points on a nightly basis (even 6-9 ppg can be a big impact when combined with 3 potentially dominant scorers).

At the end of the day, it's one game. No sense really getting too nervous until a month or so has gone by.

[MarquetteDano]

People believe Jake is a three-point shooter because:

1. He made them at South Dakota
2. He's white


There's no actual resemblance of a three-point shooter at this level though.

No. People believe Jake is a three-point shooter because Buzz himself said he is our best shooter.

[wadesworld]

Also, can we stop the "Southern is a good team" stuff? Cool, they were an NCAA team last year. They also play in the SWAC. Somebody has to get in from there.  They graduated their best player from last year. They got a 16 seed. Pretty revealing. You have to be pretty bad to get that seed. Wow, they played a semi close game with the most overrated team in the history of the NCAA tournament who also benefited from playing in an awful conference, and then who then went and lost to a mid major 9 seed in the next round.  If we want to look at their results from last year, they won 23 games and 15 of those came within their conference.  They lost to teams like Texas Southern, Arkansas Pine-Bluff, Alcorn State, and North Carolina Central.  But I'm guessing those teams are good teams too.  This isn't some team that is too good for its own league, last year was their first NCAA Tournament appearance in 7 years, playing in a terrible conference.

Are there worse teams out there? Sure. Is Southern a "good team?" Nope.

Having said all that, I am not one bit worried about last night's game.  Is there any doubt that if we wanted to play Gardner, Mayo, Jamil, and either Juan or Steve with Derrick for 35 minutes each last night that we would've won by 30 and had a nice shiny score like some of the other buy games (which is what this was)?  No doubt to me.  But Buzz (thankfully) likes to get some kids some experience who aren't necessarily ready to play the minutes that he gives them this early.  They need the experience though.  I would've expected nothing less than an ugly game that showed a close score but nobody really had anything to worry about for our first game of the year.  We will look slightly better on Tuesday, and then we will look like a different team next Saturday when we play to win every possession and see an 8 man rotation.

But no, Southern is not a good team.

[wadesworld]

No. People believe Jake is a three-point shooter because Buzz himself said he is our best shooter.

Buzz says a lot of things.

[WarriorFan]

People believe Jake is a three-point shooter because:

1. He made them at South Dakota
2. He's white


There's no actual resemblance of a three-point shooter at this level though.

OUCH.

He's actually an amazing shooter.  Just needs to find out how to make that work in Buzz's system.  No it's not Buzz's fault he's missing, but he does need to be confident that he's shooting a good shot and the right shot when he's taking it.  It's a confidence thing. If I were in Buzz's shoes, I'd be finding a way to run a couple set's for him early in every game, before Otoule comes out and before Mayo comes in.

[madtownwarrior]

One three pointer for games may be acceptable if he actually makes a 3 ptr in a game this year.    

One 3 ptr a game is not a "sniper" or "3 pt shooter"

Hell - I think Davante has a chance to make 1 3 ptr a game.  Maybe he is our sniper ?

I think by the end of the season he averages one three pointer per game.  Not sure if that qualifies for your "three point shooter".

[wadesworld]

OUCH.

He's actually an amazing shooter.  Just needs to find out how to make that work in Buzz's system.  No it's not Buzz's fault he's missing, but he does need to be confident that he's shooting a good shot and the right shot when he's taking it.  It's a confidence thing. If I were in Buzz's shoes, I'd be finding a way to run a couple set's for him early in every game, before Otoule comes out and before Mayo comes in.

The dude has had over 2 years in Buzz's system.  We can stop saying it's a confidence thing or it's a system thing.  It's not.  It's a "he can't shoot with a defender close to him" thing.  Sure, he can make 21 3 pointers in 1 minute when he stands at the top of the key and has a ball handed in rhythm to him for a minute straight with no defender anywhere on the court.  I also watched Trend freaking Blackledge make 11 straight 3 pointers from a good 3 feet behind the 3 point line in warmups.  Not many Division 1 college basketball players can't make a warmup 3 pointer with some consistency.  Good players who can actually produce in games do it with defenders.  Jake has not shown that to us, and it's not because he hasn't had an opportunity.

[MarquetteDano]

One three pointer for games may be acceptable if he actually makes a 3 ptr in a game this year.    

One 3 ptr a game is not a "sniper" or "3 pt shooter"

Hell - I think Davante has a chance to make 1 3 ptr a game.  Maybe he is our sniper ?

Well, barring injury, he is not going to average more than 15 minutes per game.  You are not going to see 15min guys average 3 three's per game.  The point is he is our best outside shooter.  Given our lack of perimeter shooters he is going to be key in zone busting.

I am not saying the guy is going to average 7+ ppg this year.  But there are quite a few posts about him "never seeing floor time" and I am answering why he will see floor time, unless JJJ becomes a star.

[77ncaachamps]

Wait wait wait…CONCERN TROLLING after one game?! 



Also, Mayo played very well.  I'm not sure what game
some folks criticizing the kid were watching. 

Well, for MU fans, there's a high standard. Yes, it may be unreasonable at times but, with men's bkb as the flagship sport, deservedly so.

Look at the other top 25 teams. Yes, some played cupcakes. Yes, some were close. Yes, they have better recruiting classes AND returning players.
But their starting fives were playing more solidly and efficiently.