MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: theBabyDavid on November 14, 2018, 12:46:23 PM
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I am curious as to thoughts here about the performance of our first lay President almost five years into his tenure. I will admit to having been a sceptic but I do see the positives as well as the negatives. For me, the jury remains out but most here have closer visibility to the happenings at Marquette.
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It's nice to have a Marquette president who can lay without running afoul of the church!
(I'll be here all night.)
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It's nice to have a Marquette president who can lay without running afoul of the church!
(I'll be here all night.)
I think a major factor in Lovell's selection was his intense religiosity. The man is a hard core Catholic which was probably overemphasized as a trait because of the context of the hire.
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It's nice to have a Marquette president who can lay without running afoul of the church!
(I'll be here all night.)
hows about letting this thread play out a little more before ya get us the lockdown there 82. this could be a highly informative and interesting thread. not to mention civil if ya'll can just get along lil doggies, eyn'a?
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I wish he'd do something about the temperature in the new arena.
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hows about letting this thread play out a little more before ya get us the lockdown there 82. this could be a highly informative and interesting thread. not to mention civil if ya'll can just get along lil doggies, eyn'a?
It was a joke. And I did everything except put it in teal to make it obvious it was a joke.
Lighten up, Francis.
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Jury still out for me. He seems to be great interacting with the students. It seems like he was a driving force behind the partnership with Harley and Miller to make a positive impact on that area. He seems to have a good relationship with area businesses and is embracing the fresh water sciences which seems to be a good place to be for the future.
Despite his vision, I worry about his execution. It seems like the announced plans are usually much grander than the actual output. There seems to be a lot of turnover at the top. I’m nowhere near the inside to know how much is on him, but based on this board and others, there’s some rumblings.
The McAdams thing was very divisive, which for some is in the plus column, others the minus.
I would guess the responses will be a mixed bag.
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Honestly, the only place I hear anything remotely negative about Dr. Lovell is on this forum.
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Honestly, the only place I hear anything remotely negative about Dr. Lovell is on this forum.
Yep.
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I am with topper. Most recognize the challenges of his job and see how hard he works at it. Nobody is perfect. And like a basketball coach, how many superior candidates are there that want to come to Marquette?
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It was a joke. And I did everything except put it in teal to make it obvious it was a joke.
Lighten up, Francis.
Your track record of getting threads locked says otherwise.
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Honestly, the only place I hear anything remotely negative about Dr. Lovell is on this forum.
+1 Mike is highly respected and a very decent guy. Perfect? Of course not. Just like all of us.
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jsglow
How serious is the current turmoil at MU? I was with someone I respect a great deal over the weekend and he seemed quite concerned over the situation.
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Ok, in before the lock
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Honestly, the only place I hear anything remotely negative about Dr. Lovell is on this forum.
Agreed. Have heard nothing but the absolute best things about him. And have experienced nothing but the best things myself, though very, very limited interaction.
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+1 Mike is highly respected and a very decent guy. Perfect? Of course not. Just like all of us.
Zactly, two cheers for MU82!
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+1 Mike is highly respected and a very decent guy. Perfect? Of course not. Just like all of us.
never mentioned anything about mike being indecent nor disrespected by any...what ziggy said though. i just wanted to hear the conversation re: lovell and learn something i didn't know yesterday
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jsglow
How serious is the current turmoil at MU? I was with someone I respect a great deal over the weekend and he seemed quite concerned over the situation.
What I do know is that he has very high expectations.
Example: The first started on the job, he asked the Director of Social Media to set up a Marquette - sanctioned Twitter account for him. When he was told that his request was taken care of, he said, "Great! Can you get me 2,000 followers by the end of the week?"
The Social Media Director scrambled like hell (after his chest pains subsided), and he got Dr. Lovell his 2,000 followers. And in less than a month, he was the most followed college president in the state.
The good news is that I have every reason that people try to meet those high expectations is because they like and respect him, not because they fear him.
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^^^ ban dis gf-individual. His signature alone is begging for a vacation. Just awful.
On this we agree. I hope he has a nice Thanksgiving.
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What I do know is that he has very high expectations.
Example: The first started on the job, he asked the Director of Social Media to set up a Marquette - sanctioned Twitter account for him. When he was told that his request was taken care of, he said, "Great! Can you get me 2,000 followers by the end of the week?"
The Social Media Director scrambled like hell (after his chest pains subsided), and he got Dr. Lovell his 2,000 followers. And in less than a month, he was the most followed college president in the state.
The good news is that I have every reason that people try to meet those high expectations is because they like and respect him, not because they fear him.
I am struggling to understand how setting up a Twitter account comes anywhere near being an accomplishment for a University President.
What are the actual "high expectations" he sets.
I am not being obtuse; rather, I am responding to your statement. The only example you cite is he got someone to set up a Twitter account then challenged the guy to get 2,000 followers. Frankly, that's pretty tepid.
I am sure there are some actual examples of Lovell's setting "high expectations" but you are certainly not citing any.
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jsglow
How serious is the current turmoil at MU? I was with someone I respect a great deal over the weekend and he seemed quite concerned over the situation.
The answer goose is that I don't know. When I've talked with folks about it I've mostly gotten the canned 'change always happens' answer. But the truth is that his top 2 lieutenants, guys he himself hired, are gone in quick succession. So actions are louder than words, right? So we'll see I guess.
And I wanted to respond to you before rocky has to put the old master lock on this.
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I am struggling to understand how setting up a Twitter account comes anywhere near being an accomplishment for a University President.
What are the actual "high expectations" he sets.
I am not being obtuse; rather, I am responding to your statement. The only example you cite is he got someone to set up a Twitter account then challenged the guy to get 2,000 followers. Frankly, that's pretty tepid.
I am sure there are some actual examples of Lovell's setting "high expectations" but you are certainly not citing any.
I used that story because I got it straight from the source {as opposed to an "I heard that...") , and it is a high expectation given the task and the personnel involved.
I am sure that nearly every staffer at Marquette has a similar story about Dr. Lovell that is commensurate with their level of responsibility.
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I am struggling to understand how setting up a Twitter account comes anywhere near being an accomplishment for a University President.
Because the President of the University has to communicate the mission of the institution, its place in the community and the world. He has to be able to work with the university's supporters to communicate the message in ways that will cause people to react and further extoll the mission of what Marquette is trying to do.
Granted, many of us don't use Twitter. If your MU graduation date was anywhere close to mine, paper media is still somewhat appealing. But the wave of the future is Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter and gazillions of other forums that have not been invented yet. Part of Dr. Lovell's job is to communicate the message and that means getting lots and lots of social media relationships.
The fact is that as we Baby Boomers age and our sunset dates are closer than our graduation dates, we will be replaced by hyper-techno Millennials. To reach these people, technology proficiency will become more and more critical to communication. That's reality.
So yes, that's why Dr. Lovell's goal is so important.
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I used that story because I got it straight from the source {as opposed to an "I heard that...") , and it is a high expectation given the task and the personnel involved.
I am sure that nearly every staffer at Marquette has a similar story about Dr. Lovell that is commensurate with their level of responsibility.
"...it is a high expectation given the task and the personnel involved."
I am stunned that setting up a social media account then driving traffic to it is in any way difficult, especially for the University Director of Social Media.
I have witnessed our devs set up accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and dating sites then write scripts that generate huge numbers of followers. It isn't difficult. And all they are trying to do is attract female companionship.
I don't use Twitter but I do follow Dr. Mark Schlissel. I think a quick scan through his account demonstrates that University Presidents have a particular script they follow which is to communicate and celebrate community, values, goals, and accomplishment. Schlissel and Lovell both use Twitter in the same way.
But this isn't about Twitter. It is about content. You said Lovell sets high expectations. What are those expectations?
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Because the President of the University has to communicate the mission of the institution, its place in the community and the world. He has to be able to work with the university's supporters to communicate the message in ways that will cause people to react and further extoll the mission of what Marquette is trying to do.
Granted, many of us don't use Twitter. If your MU graduation date was anywhere close to mine, paper media is still somewhat appealing. But the wave of the future is Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter and gazillions of other forums that have not been invented yet. Part of Dr. Lovell's job is to communicate the message and that means getting lots and lots of social media relationships.
The fact is that as we Baby Boomers age and our sunset dates are closer than our graduation dates, we will be replaced by hyper-techno Millennials. To reach these people, technology proficiency will become more and more critical to communication. That's reality.
So yes, that's why Dr. Lovell's goal is so important.
The use of social media plays a critical role in any organization's overall broadcast. I have never argued otherwise.
And for what it's worth, theBabyDavid's mother was recently named to lead the MSFT integrated web services business unit so I probably have a keener appreciation for PaaS than most of my generation.
My question is not if Lovell has mastered social media because he doesn't need to. It is how he has impacted Marquette in the five years he has been at the helm.
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Some thoughts on Lovell:
1. He hired Wojo
2. He (probably) hired and fired the provost Dan Meyers
3. He is involved with a lot of changes on campus - new buildings, new landscapes
4. He is involved with pushing more innovation - with money/building renovations, and staff - like business collaboration lawyer
5. He is involved with a shift for new technology and career focused majors
6. But less core theology and philosophy
7. Collaboration with city and West town
8. Buying land towards downtown/to what end?
9. Soon to get rid of McCormick Hall - and old rec center and build new rec center on Wisconsin ave.
10. New Fatima shrine - which should be dedicated soon
11. Value focused mission
12. Accessible
13. wife Amy and he are now involved with urban trauma/good representation for the University
14. Catholic faith is very important to him
15. New Jesuit residence
16. New sports/athletic center almost done
17. New Physician Assistant building = profit center for the University
18. Hired and promoted VP for Diversity
19. Strengthened collaboration with Medical College
20. New focus on Homecoming in Fall and also with Reunions
21. Very high admission rates -- many colleges/universities are struggling
22. He is responsive with respect to interaction with students - and I think popular with them
23. Runs daily with faculty and staff/allowing more access
24. New dorm (The Commons)
Not all of the above occurred entirely during his watch, but brought home during his tenure.
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The use of social media plays a critical role in any organization's overall broadcast. I have never argued otherwise.
And for what it's worth, theBabyDavid's mother was recently named to lead the MSFT integrated web services business unit so I probably have a keener appreciation for PaaS than most of my generation.
My question is not if Lovell has mastered social media because he doesn't need to. It is how he has impacted Marquette in the five years he has been at the helm.
Maybe because my youngest is there I see the benefits.
Buildings popping up. There is an old adage that if a college isn't constructing buildings, it is deal. Campus looks good
Competitive academically
Athletics doing very well in a top conference. Playing is Fiserv is good short term move
Relations with the city, at least on the outside seem good
Students relate to him
Endowment was $531M in 2014, now $669M in 2018
Solid incoming classes
I think he stepped in it with the Political Science professor
He's not that great a speaker, but for an academic probably good enough
Has potential to make MU an academic powerhouse, but doesn't seem willing to do so. Maybe that is ok. I'm torn
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Maybe because my youngest is there I see the benefits.
Buildings popping up. There is an old adage that if a college isn't constructing buildings, it is deal. Campus looks good
Competitive academically
Athletics doing very well in a top conference. Playing is Fiserv is good short term move
Relations with the city, at least on the outside seem good
Students relate to him
Endowment was $531M in 2014, now $669M in 2018
Solid incoming classes
I think he stepped in it with the Political Science professor
He's not that great a speaker, but for an academic probably good enough
Has potential to make MU an academic powerhouse, but doesn't seem willing to do so. Maybe that is ok. I'm torn
I was actually on campus this week for the first time in 20 years and was stunned by the physical transformation. Marquette's physical plant has genuinely come of age; it actually looks like a campus.
They have really cleaned up the surrounding area, too. I can't say that the gentrification of Wells and State Streets is all good, however. Some damned fine drinking establishments are now but sweet memories. But the Combat Zone is definitely gone which probably makes more than a few parents thankful.
The uptick in off campus-student housing quality is likely the most impressive thing I noticed. We lived in a sqaulor that would make the most mean spirited slum lord wince. The Greek housing, crammed along Kilbourn, was Delta House-esque. These rat-infested structures have been replaced by condos that would easily fit into any trendy urban environment.
It is my understanding that the intial vision for this transformation belongs to Al D but was largely executed by Wild.
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Maybe because my youngest is there I see the benefits.
Buildings popping up. There is an old adage that if a college isn't constructing buildings, it is deal. Campus looks good
Competitive academically
Athletics doing very well in a top conference. Playing is Fiserv is good short term move
Relations with the city, at least on the outside seem good
Students relate to him
Endowment was $531M in 2014, now $669M in 2018
Solid incoming classes
I think he stepped in it with the Political Science professor
He's not that great a speaker, but for an academic probably good enough
Has potential to make MU an academic powerhouse, but doesn't seem willing to do so. Maybe that is ok. I'm torn
Agree with all of this, especially the very last point! Why doesn't MU aspire higher? Overall his tenure has been very positive, but MU seems to be more than content with competing for the same students that LUC and SLU gets instead of schools like BC, Villanova and Fordham and their ilk. The irony is MU's campus has improved to the point where if they put the slightest bit of effort into it, they have a really good chance at picking off some of these really high caliber students that historically have matriculated elsewhere and wouldn't typically consider a school like MU as recently as 3 years ago. Both MKE and MU in particular has improved substantially in the last few yrs so climate aside, MU has never been in a better position to compete for these students, but at the end of the day MU is all talk and no action. They say want to be a "national university" and destination school, but are unwilling to do what it takes to get there because it's anathema to their mission. Obviously I don't agree with their approach because the other schools I mentioned largely have the same mission.
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Agree with all of this, especially the very last point! Why doesn't MU aspire higher? Overall his tenure has been very positive, but MU seems to be more than content with competing for the same students that LUC and SLU gets instead of schools like BC, Villanova and Fordham and their ilk. The irony is MU's campus has improved to the point where if they put the slightest bit of effort into it, they have a really good chance at picking off some of these really high caliber students that historically have matriculated elsewhere and wouldn't typically consider a school like MU as recently as 3 years ago. Both MKE and MU in particular has improved substantially in the last few yrs so climate aside, MU has never been in a better position to compete for these students, but at the end of the day MU is all talk and no action. They say want to be a "national university" and destination school, but are unwilling to do what it takes to get there because it's anathema to their mission. Obviously I don't agree with their approach because the other schools I mentioned largely have the same mission.
I assure you that we are. And one with the highest Frosh enrollment and avg. ACT in many, many years, perhaps ever. What is it that you want MU to be? Or is that you simply don't want any 'undesirables' as you might define them on campus?
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I assure you that we are. And one with the highest Frosh enrollment and avg. ACT in many, many years, perhaps ever. What is it that you want MU to be? Or is that you simply don't want any 'undesirables' as you might define them on campus?
He wants them to be ranked higher because he somehow believes that it matters. I mean, I just don't even know what to say anymore. The school is financially healthy, meeting its enrollment goals and serving its core mission. It is a very successful institution.
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He wants them to be ranked higher because he somehow believes that it matters. I mean, I just don't even know what to say anymore. The school is financially healthy, meeting its enrollment goals and serving its core mission. It is a very successful institution.
Yep. On the list of qualities Marquette is willing to dedicate significant effort and resources to attain, "snob appeal" is down at the bottom.
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He wants them to be ranked higher because he somehow believes that it matters. I mean, I just don't even know what to say anymore. The school is financially healthy, meeting its enrollment goals and serving its core mission. It is a very successful institution.
Yes sir. And in an era of declining 18 y/o population, especially in our core market, I'd say we're winning big time.
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I am genuinely impressed with the transformation of the total campus environment. Marquette actually has a coherent campus.
I will say that I was surprised by The Al. It is much smaller from the outside than I anticipated. For some reason I pictured a much larger venue.
On the negative side, I am shaking my head over the absolute obliteration of the MU drinking infrastructure. The Wells Street Watering Hole, from 11th to 17th, has been erased from history.
Jim Hegarty's is now an empty lot. The Lanche and The Gym gave way to Burger King and Papa John's.
Hallowed Ground. Consecrated Earth. Precious Soil. Defiled.
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Agreed. No Wales on Wells, Amigo's.... gone corporate.
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He wants them to be ranked higher because he somehow believes that it matters. I mean, I just don't even know what to say anymore. The school is financially healthy, meeting its enrollment goals and serving its core mission. It is a very successful institution.
Long term success may require a larger endowment, funded by talented and rich graduates, which tend (not always, mind you) come from smart people with great jobs or high revenue sources. Is MU putting those types of people out there into the world at a clip that they should, or could? Might make the difference between a great next 50 years and a so-so next 50 years. I say this with some envy as Bloomberg just donated over $1 billion to Johns Hopkins University.
edit: Fix typo, etc
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Long term success may require a larger endowment
Jams,
This is spot on. At the end of the day Lovell's tenure will be evaluated by how much he has increased the endowment.
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Jams,
This is spot on. At the end of the day Lovell's tenure will be evaluated by how much he has increased the endowment.
Makes one wonder how many of those who hung their mugs(beer steins) on the wall in ole brooks memorial contributed to where MU is today...the Ardmore was an old dental school hang out, hegs where the law school student s met their first mistress, old Kelly hung his head singing Irish ballads with an occasional eee, heee, heee heee heee over his screw top bottle of wine and the iconic felz Houston was carved into the tile above the men’s urinal ...otherwise, nuttin much happened here the obvious, gym bar, ‘lanche and o.d.’s need no mention as they speak for themselves. Can’t forget how many Milwaukee conquests from the circle inn were snuck in and out of Mccormicks stairwell...sigh...
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Jams,
This is spot on. At the end of the day Lovell's tenure will be evaluated by how much he has increased the endowment.
Viagra has gone generic, so he can increase the endowment for less than previous years, aina.
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Makes one wonder how many of those who hung their mugs(beer steins) on the wall in ole brooks memorial contributed to where MU is today...the Ardmore was an old dental school hang out, hegs where the law school student s met their first mistress, old Kelly hung his head singing Irish ballads with an occasional eee, heee, heee heee heee over his screw top bottle of wine and the iconic felz Houston was carved into the tile above the men’s urinal ...otherwise, nuttin much happened here the obvious, gym bar, ‘lanche and o.d.’s need no mention as they speak for themselves. Can’t forget how many Milwaukee conquests from the circle inn were snuck in and out of Mccormicks stairwell...sigh...
I'm sure there is still a drinking culture in the school, at least based on the condition some of the students find themselves in at the basketball games....it's just largely moved off campus and doesn't look like it once did, for both good and bad.
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I don't know a lot, if anything, about running a university so my metrics feel pretty basic but Lovell seems to be doing well overall. I think the university is better off than when he found it, no glaring scandals or missteps (I don't care about the McAdams thing), and he seems engaged/responsive with the students/alumni. I also tend to view him as a change agent as I didn't like the direction of the university in the previous administrations, so if there is turn over in leadership I'm ok with it because you either need to get onboard or ship out.
Let's see what the next 2-3 years hold and then we'll know what we have.
I'd be curious to hear what things people think Lovell screwed up.
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I'd be curious to hear what things people think Lovell screwed up.
The announcement of the Aurora Sports Institute that led to splitting the planned joint facility with the Bucks, followed by Aurora dropping out, was a fiasco to say the least. Led to a lot of dominos falling in ways that didn't help the University or basketball program.
That for me was the biggest public misstep. Hurt the relationship with Bucks owners, may have impacted lease negotiations, rendered the 7th & Michigan location useless so that now city officials want MU to turn the old Radisson into a homeless shelter, led to a smaller facility by the Al, which in turn will take parking away from Gesu church goers, all for a sponsor that pulled its sponsorship.
I still support Lovell and hope he learns from that one, but it was a really poor decision, and one that was obviously poor both in the moment and in the long term.
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I'm sure there is still a drinking culture in the school, at least based on the condition some of the students find themselves in at the basketball games....it's just largely moved off campus and doesn't look like it once did, for both good and bad.
You also need to factor in a little embellishment and ailing memories amongst the older alums, especially regarding their romantic escapades. I don't know who all these guys were allegedly hooking up with all the time, but it certainly wasn't me or my friends. And yes, we were attractive; we were also discerning.
Marquette alums who claim they were players at Marquette in the 70's and 80's are the same as 70-somethings from the East Coast who claim they were at Woodstock. :D
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The announcement of the Aurora Sports Institute that led to splitting the planned joint facility with the Bucks, followed by Aurora dropping out, was a fiasco to say the least. Led to a lot of dominos falling in ways that didn't help the University or basketball program.
That for me was the biggest public misstep. Hurt the relationship with Bucks owners, may have impacted lease negotiations, rendered the 7th & Michigan location useless so that now city officials want MU to turn the old Radisson into a homeless shelter, led to a smaller facility by the Al, which in turn will take parking away from Gesu church goers, all for a sponsor that pulled its sponsorship.
I still support Lovell and hope he learns from that one, but it was a really poor decision, and one that was obviously poor both in the moment and in the long term.
The 7th and Michigan lovation isn’t “useless.” It was smart to buy it anyway.
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I don't know a lot, if anything, about running a university so my metrics feel pretty basic but Lovell seems to be doing well overall. I think the university is better off than when he found it, no glaring scandals or missteps (I don't care about the McAdams thing), and he seems engaged/responsive with the students/alumni. I also tend to view him as a change agent as I didn't like the direction of the university in the previous administrations, so if there is turn over in leadership I'm ok with it because you either need to get onboard or ship out.
Let's see what the next 2-3 years hold and then we'll know what we have.
I'd be curious to hear what things people think Lovell screwed up.
I really believe that if some of these schools could stop veering away from their roots and bring back the core “MU” values, they would be looked upon as doing something refreshing and different. most schools are continuing to try to ram the square peg thru the round hole, because they know better what the alumni want. That is, allowing for a glaring disparity in ideologies of thought. MU, if it made a conscience effort to truly allow for good old fashioned debate and diversity of opinions, it could then set itself apart from the others.
You do not(or maybe some do) realize how many people Out there who echo the same sentiments. It’s like the the universities are trying to establish a “new normal”. I know I’m going to get some blow back here, but argue it all you want. From the outside looking in, it’s changed and the changes have cost schools some money. They will never know how much because these people just shut down and go away. People are noticing the UN-level playing field and do not feel their values are being represented anymore.
Disclaimer, I am trying very hard to keep this apolitical, and if we can, it could be a very informative and influential thread(got that 82?) if it evolves into a shouting match? It goes no where and the same old same old will continue on.
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I really believe that if some of these schools could stop veering away from their roots and bring back the core “MU” values, they would be looked upon as doing something refreshing and different. most schools are continuing to try to ram the square peg thru the round hole, because they know better what the alumni want. That is, allowing for a glaring disparity in ideologies of thought. MU, if it made a conscience effort to truly allow for good old fashioned debate and diversity of opinions, it could then set itself apart from the others.
You do not(or maybe some do) realize how many people Out there who echo the same sentiments. It’s like the the universities are trying to establish a “new normal”. I know I’m going to get some blow back here, but argue it all you want. From the outside looking in, it’s changed and the changes have cost schools some money. They will never know how much because these people just shut down and go away. People are noticing the UN-level playing field and do not feel their values are being represented anymore.
Disclaimer, I am trying very hard to keep this apolitical, and if we can, it could be a very informative and influential thread(got that 82?) if it evolves into a shouting match? It goes no where and the same old same old will continue on.
I have no idea what you are saying here.
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Jams,
This is spot on. At the end of the day Lovell's tenure will be evaluated by how much he has increased the endowment.
?
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The 7th and Michigan lovation isn’t “useless.” It was smart to buy it anyway.
Yeah, sorry, useless for the original plan. It's worth having the property, but to date hasn't really served any purpose.
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I have no idea what you are saying here.
He's whining that Marquette is too liberal.
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I really believe that if some of these schools could stop veering away from their roots and bring back the core “MU” values,
Which core MU values the university has veered away from?
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http://thecatholicspirit.com/special-sections/legislative-guide/7-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching/
A primer of Catholic social teaching
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The announcement of the Aurora Sports Institute that led to splitting the planned joint facility with the Bucks, followed by Aurora dropping out, was a fiasco to say the least. Led to a lot of dominos falling in ways that didn't help the University or basketball program.
That for me was the biggest public misstep. Hurt the relationship with Bucks owners, may have impacted lease negotiations, rendered the 7th & Michigan location useless so that now city officials want MU to turn the old Radisson into a homeless shelter, led to a smaller facility by the Al, which in turn will take parking away from Gesu church goers, all for a sponsor that pulled its sponsorship.
I still support Lovell and hope he learns from that one, but it was a really poor decision, and one that was obviously poor both in the moment and in the long term.
To be fair though, the mistake was trusting the Bucks ownership. There was some backroom stuff going on there that was outside of Lovell's control and had he been dealing with above board folks probably works out anyway. C'est la vie.
But it is a good point about an area where Lovell has failed.
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He's whining that Marquette is too liberal.
Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face. There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here. I can respect what you believe if you respect mine.
Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side. What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools. I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view.
On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following
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Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face. There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here. I can respect what you believe if you respect mine.
Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side. What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools. I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view.
On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following
You watch too much Fox News.
I mean you honestly think you’re gonna have a nice discussion whe your opening take is that Marquette University is too liberal?
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I really believe that if some of these schools could stop veering away from their roots and bring back the core “MU” values, they would be looked upon as doing something refreshing and different. most schools are continuing to try to ram the square peg thru the round hole, because they know better what the alumni want. That is, allowing for a glaring disparity in ideologies of thought. MU, if it made a conscience effort to truly allow for good old fashioned debate and diversity of opinions, it could then set itself apart from the others.
You do not(or maybe some do) realize how many people Out there who echo the same sentiments. It’s like the the universities are trying to establish a “new normal”. I know I’m going to get some blow back here, but argue it all you want. From the outside looking in, it’s changed and the changes have cost schools some money. They will never know how much because these people just shut down and go away. People are noticing the UN-level playing field and do not feel their values are being represented anymore.
Disclaimer, I am trying very hard to keep this apolitical, and if we can, it could be a very informative and influential thread(got that 82?) if it evolves into a shouting match? It goes no where and the same old same old will continue on.
Follow-up, what debate is MU stifling? What conversations aren't happening because of MU's policies?
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Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face. There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here. I can respect what you believe if you respect mine.
Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side. What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools. I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view.
On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following
Do you think MU isn't getting "conservative" students? What students are being turned away by MU's policies? I suspect you are correct about the university being too "liberal" but that is from the prism of an alumni, not a student audience. Does the universities mission and vision align with the potential student population that turns them into loyal alumni that then become donors to the mission and vision. The alumni base is always going to have a secondary concern because MU has to focus on turning out more alumni to be viable long term.
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Ya see, the “whining” word was uncalled for and it’s that type of rhetoric that can ruin a good conversation. It puts people on the defensive and on a message board causes the debate to get hostile and words come across differently than if we were face to face. There is no reason that this topic cannot be discussed without getting shut down. People have differences. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind here. I can respect what you believe if you respect mine.
Once again, trying like h-e-double hockey sticks to keep this apolitical, if one was honest, universities across the nation have gone too far to one side. What I was trying to say was, if MU were to try to balance that a little more to the center, they would actually set themselves apart from many other schools. I believe there is, for lack of a better word, a market for “middle”. At least from a PR point of view.
On the one hand, you have your hillsdale, liberty, BYU and pepperdines(I didn’t know this was in the same grouping) and then you have all the rest...bring MU somewhere between and you may have yourself a nice little following
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get across here ... but it sounds an awful lot like you're suggesting political conservatism was a "core value" for Marquette. If that's your point, I disagree.
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I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959. He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society, he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others. He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others
He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years
He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.
Sully-skip the Fox News crap. It has nothing to do with this
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http://thecatholicspirit.com/special-sections/legislative-guide/7-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching/
A primer of Catholic social teaching
The two seminal works on Catholic social awareness are Merton's Seven Storey Mountain and Augustine's Confessions.
Mandatory reading for contemplative discernment on faith and consciousness.
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Do you think MU isn't getting "conservative" students? What students are being turned away by MU's policies? I suspect you are correct about the university being too "liberal" but that is from the prism of an alumni, not a student audience. Does the universities mission and vision align with the potential student population that turns them into loyal alumni that then become donors to the mission and vision. The alumni base is always going to have a secondary concern because MU has to focus on turning out more alumni to be viable long term.
rs's comments are weird. I heard from an MU Alum recently (who does not come to this board) who said he sent all his kids to Madison because he thought MU was too conservative.
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You watch too much Fox News.
I mean you honestly think you’re gonna have a nice discussion whe your opening take is that Marquette University is too liberal?
I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.
If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.
Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.
The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.
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I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.
If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.
Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.
The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.
🙄
I have no doubt the faculty is lore liberal in the past. But the idea that debate is squelched and students are somehow indoctrinated is pretty silly.
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I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959. He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society, he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others. He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others
He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years
He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.
Sully-skip the Fox News crap. It has nothing to do with this
Your dad should watch less Fox News.
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The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.
(https://y.yarn.co/5f321128-6878-4f0a-bc6a-58542346473a_text.gif)
Seriously, no one born after 1956 has been threatened with conscription in this country. Academia in 2018 is not, in fact, ruled by 62+-year-old hippy draft dodgers.
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rs's comments are weird. I heard from an MU Alum recently (who does not come to this board) who said he sent all his kids to Madison because he thought MU was too conservative.
Nutmeg
Then your friend has a clear political bias. When I think about my brood and their decision-making process re college enrollment, political environment was never a factor. In every case their thinking was guided by longer term interests and which program and curricula met those goals. One son did have a sports related factor which, frankly, was a core interest of his at that point in his life.
Our daughter and son #2 ended up matriculating at colleges which were at the epicenter of the '60's Free Speech Movement - Columbia and Michigan - but neither ever felt the political environment of those campuses detracted from the learning experience.
A parent intervening in a child's college decision such as you suggest has some deeper issues that need address.
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I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959. He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society, he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others. He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others
He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years
He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.
Sully-skip the Fox News crap. It has nothing to do with this
What - specifically - doesn't he like?
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The size of endowments has always blown me away. Seems like an enormous pile of money. And the request is never ending, it's never enough.
Sure, sure, it "guarantees MU's long term future." How far does $670m get you versus $1b?
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I do believe that the atmosphere on the Marquette campus is markedly more liberal today than it was in my era or any earlier. I would also suggest that this is true of almost all campuses in America.
If one reads the works of Bobby Seales, Abbie Hoffmann, and, in particular, Tom Hayden, the radical left of the 1960's concluded that confrontation was ineffectual vis a vis a well armed elite ruling class. Therefore, and this was a stated plank of the SDS, the path of least resistance to effect real political cultural change was through the education system.
Even Seales and Huey Newton agreed that an armed insurrection was foolish; real change could be best achieved the lectern and not the barrel of an AK.
The radical left, armed with PhD's earned through years of draft deferments, entered the secondary and tertiary teaching world with an agenda. The results of that strategy are real and manifest in what passes for informed discussion on college campuses throughout America.
Crash
Are the campus' more progressive in contrast to society as a whole or has society become more progressive than it was in the 70s and 80s at the same "rate" as campuses? As we get older, we tend to be more fixed in our views, more nostalgic for our day that bring sharp relief to where society has moved in the meantime with new ideas and new experiences of younger generations. So from our relatively fixed perspective it looks like campuses are more progressive than we experienced, but I'd argue its not out of line to where society itself is going.
There is no doubt that the concepts and conversations taking place on campus are different than they were when I was a freshman just like they are different from when you were a freshman, but that doesn't mean they are objectively bad concepts or conversations, just different and very likely aligned with society generally.
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Nutmeg
Then your friend has a clear political bias. When I think about my brood and their decision-making process re college enrollment, political environment was never a factor. In every case their thinking was guided by longer term interests and which program and curricula met those goals. One son did have a sports related factor which, frankly, was a core interest of his at that point in his life.
Our daughter and son #2 ended up matriculating at colleges which were at the epicenter of the '60's Free Speech Movement - Columbia and Michigan - but neither ever felt the political environment of those campuses detracted from the learning experience.
A parent intervening in a child's college decision such as you suggest has some deeper issues that need address.
Crash - that was my thoughts also.
I do not think his perception is true and I'm going through a similar thing now with my daughter as a high school Senior. I want her to end up where she feels is the best fit for her.
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(https://y.yarn.co/5f321128-6878-4f0a-bc6a-58542346473a_text.gif)
Seriously, no one born after 1956 has been threatened with conscription in this country. Academia in 2018 is not, in fact, ruled by 62+-year-old hippy draft dodgers.
Your red herring misses the point entirely. My comment is not about the draft.
An inability to argue properly is one of the fundamental problems with civil society today. Thank you for providing an excellent example of obtuse foolishness.
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I will give you guys an example- my dad graduated from MU dental in 1959. He is a very reasonable guy, well liked by many in his community, school board president, lions club president, sang in church choir and lectured many a readings for many years, president of the knights of Columbus, president of the Burlington dental society, he is conservative in many ways and he is very moderate in others. He was a decent benefactor to many causes- local nursing home, cancer society, Susan b moment, Marquette and many others
He doesn’t like the way MU has gone over the years
He is a reasonable guy whom I think is a microcosm of many in the past and in the present.
Sully-skip the Fox News crap. It has nothing to do with this
So what? Your dad is extremely conservative and doesn't like what, exactly?
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🙄
I have no doubt the faculty is lore liberal in the past. But the idea that debate is squelched and students are somehow indoctrinated is pretty silly.
The assertion that free speech is not under attack and that discourse on college campuses has not been politicized is absurd. I will only cite "liberal" news outlets.
I have received correspondence from the leadership of Harvard University specifically addressing the rise of intolerance in thought and discourse on that campus.
Not sure what your perspective is but the rise of intolerance on college campuses is not just distrurbing but an actual threat to our democratic values.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-glaring-evidence-that-free-speech-is-threatened-on-campus/471825/
https://www.salon.com/2015/09/30/free_speech_for_all_on_campus_unless_youre_criticizing_israel_that_is/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/free-speech-is-flunking-out-on-college-campuses/2015/10/22/124e7cd2-78f5-11e5-b9c1-f03c48c96ac2_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2d2c93e04fad
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff/the-10-worst-colleges-for_b_9243000.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/justice-department-campus-free-speech.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FFreedom%20of%20Speech%20and%20Expression&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=10&pgtype=collection
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/us/campus-free-speech-trnd/index.html
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The size of endowments has always blown me away. Seems like an enormous pile of money. And the request is never ending, it's never enough.
Sure, sure, it "guarantees MU's long term future." How far does $670m get you versus $1b?
Endowments must be relative. A value (ie $670 MM) is meaningless without context.
The University of Michigan has an endowment of $11 Billion and recently concluded a fund drive that generated $5 Billion. One can say that MU doesn't compete with U of M but the fact is that it does. When a college raises $5 billion in one drive it alters the total landscape.
If MU's endowment is half that of SLU and a quarter that of BC then Lovell needs to get to work.
MU's endowment of $670 MM might seem like a big number but in context it is not enough to ensure relevance in an increasingly competitive environment
https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-michigan-raises-5-billion-others-close-behind-1538658001
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Your red herring misses the point entirely. My comment is not about the draft.
An inability to argue properly is one of the fundamental problems with civil society today. Thank you for providing an excellent example of obtuse foolishness.
Yeah, it was about the draft. You said the radical left was "armed with PhD's earned through draft deferments." Which is, of course, asinine, given that no one under the age of 62 has ever needed a draft deferment.
Sorry to have pointed our your very bad take.
Your failure to support what you wrote, replaced instead by your standard masturbatory drivel, is typical.
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Nutmeg
Then your friend has a clear political bias. [...]
I had a friend say something similar. e.g. Wanting to send his kid to UW because MU was too liberal. Although that may suggest he has a clear political bias, it more accurately tells me he's an idiot.
Like saying I don't want to eat veal because it's inhumane, I only eat foie gras.
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Crash
Are the campus' more progressive in contrast to society as a whole or has society become more progressive than it was in the 70s and 80s at the same "rate" as campuses? As we get older, we tend to be more fixed in our views, more nostalgic for our day that bring sharp relief to where society has moved in the meantime with new ideas and new experiences of younger generations. So from our relatively fixed perspective it looks like campuses are more progressive than we experienced, but I'd argue its not out of line to where society itself is going.
There is no doubt that the concepts and conversations taking place on campus are different than they were when I was a freshman just like they are different from when you were a freshman, but that doesn't mean they are objectively bad concepts or conversations, just different and very likely aligned with society generally.
Rhino,
While I believe the content has changed - hell, the big protest in my day at MU was Boycott Nestle for promoting baby formula in the 3rd World - my concern rests on the complete incivility in discourse which characterizes the national conversation.
Personally, I favor much of the loosening of the former social construct. Harassing people because they wanted an intimate relationship with someone of the same gender was just wrong and completely indefensible. My mother's family was rounded up like cattle and incarcerated in concentration camps for years on US soil - all of them American citizens who were contributing members of society (my grandfather was a medical doctor who served his community, often being paid in vegetables and eggs.)
My concern is the intolerance for other viewpoints. One need look no further than Scoop to witness the ugliness of discourse in contemporary American society. What is happening throughout society, but in particular on campuses which are designed to be bastions of free speech, is frightening. These illberal attitudes pose a threat to our values as a culture.
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Rhino,
While I believe the content has changed - hell, the big protest in my day at MU was Boycott Nestle for promoting baby formula in the 3rd World - my concern rests on the complete incivility in discourse which characterizes the national conversation.
Personally, I favor much of the loosening of the former social construct. Harassing people because they wanted an intimate relationship with someone of the same gender was just wrong and completely indefensible. My mother's family was rounded up like cattle and incarcerated in concentration camps for years on US soil - all of them American citizens who were contributing members of society (my grandfather was a medical doctor who served his community, often being paid in vegetables and eggs.)
My concern is the intolerance for other viewpoints. One need look no further than Scoop to witness the ugliness of discourse in contemporary American society. What is happening throughout society, but in particular on campuses which are designed to be bastions of free speech, is frightening. These illberal attitudes pose a threat to our values as a culture.
Fair, I guess I just don't assign this ugliness in discourse to be a relatively exclusive domain of campus' as you point out it's pretty universal in society at large these days. Additionally, this "outrage culture" is independent of political ideology in my opinion.....there's lots of people across the spectrum trying to limit discourse by being outraged about something their ideological opponent said.
This topic always makes me think of this scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/kPMwTWvKadCG4/giphy.gif)
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Fair, I guess I just don't assign this ugliness in discourse to be a relatively exclusive domain of campus' as you point out it's pretty universal in society at large these days.
I think this can be overstated. Discourse has always been ugly at times. There was a time, after all, when political disputes were solved with pistols at 20 paces. Or when a senator was nearly beaten to death by a fellow legislator in the Senate chamber. Or when law enforcement turned hoses on kids conducting a peaceful protest. Or when real radical leftists (not scary college professors) set off hundreds of bombs in the 70s.
Shouting at each other over social media (or even in person) really isn't all that bad in comparison.
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Personally, I favor much of the loosening of the former social construct. Harassing people because they wanted an intimate relationship with someone of the same gender was just wrong and completely indefensible.
What the f*ck are you talking about???
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The assertion that free speech is not under attack and that discourse on college campuses has not been politicized is absurd. I will only cite "liberal" news outlets.
I have received correspondence from the leadership of Harvard University specifically addressing the rise of intolerance in thought and discourse on that campus.
Not sure what your perspective is but the rise of intolerance on college campuses is not just distrurbing but an actual threat to our democratic values.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-glaring-evidence-that-free-speech-is-threatened-on-campus/471825/
https://www.salon.com/2015/09/30/free_speech_for_all_on_campus_unless_youre_criticizing_israel_that_is/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/free-speech-is-flunking-out-on-college-campuses/2015/10/22/124e7cd2-78f5-11e5-b9c1-f03c48c96ac2_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2d2c93e04fad
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff/the-10-worst-colleges-for_b_9243000.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/justice-department-campus-free-speech.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FFreedom%20of%20Speech%20and%20Expression&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=10&pgtype=collection
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/us/campus-free-speech-trnd/index.html
Wow. You sighted some pretty cool sources and got a neat letter from the President of Harvard!!!! You must be a pretty important person!!!
Too bad you still don't know what you're talking about. You're talking in absolutes that don't really represent what goes on routinely.
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I think this can be overstated. Discourse has always been ugly at times. There was a time, after all, when political disputes were solved with pistols at 20 paces. Or when a senator was nearly beaten to death by a fellow legislator in the Senate chamber. Or when law enforcement turned hoses on kids conducting a peaceful protest. Or when real radical leftists (not scary college professors) set off hundreds of bombs in the 70s.
Shouting at each other over social media (or even in person) really isn't all that bad in comparison.
Forgive my rudeness, but so what? I mean it's great that out incivility has gotten more civil and less violent, but the suppression of discourse is just as bad for society as it ever was, the means of doing so have gotten more subtle
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Endowments must be relative. A value (ie $670 MM) is meaningless without context.
The University of Michigan has an endowment of $11 Billion and recently concluded a fund drive that generated $5 Billion. One can say that MU doesn't compete with U of M but the fact is that it does. When a college raises $5 billion in one drive it alters the total landscape.
If MU's endowment is half that of SLU and a quarter that of BC then Lovell needs to get to work.
MU's endowment of $670 MM might seem like a big number but in context it is not enough to ensure relevance in an increasingly competitive environment
https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-michigan-raises-5-billion-others-close-behind-1538658001
That's all well and good, but doesn't answer my question. If SLU has double the endowment of MU, what does that mean? What can SLU do that MU can't because their endowment is double?
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That's all well and good, but doesn't answer my question. If SLU has double the endowment of MU, what does that mean? What can SLU do that MU can't because their endowment is double?
They can weather downturns in enrollment. They can have more resources to allocate for all sorts of reasons. They would have more scholarships to award students.
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Agree with all of this, especially the very last point! Why doesn't MU aspire higher? Overall his tenure has been very positive, but MU seems to be more than content with competing for the same students that LUC and SLU gets instead of schools like BC, Villanova and Fordham and their ilk. The irony is MU's campus has improved to the point where if they put the slightest bit of effort into it, they have a really good chance at picking off some of these really high caliber students that historically have matriculated elsewhere and wouldn't typically consider a school like MU as recently as 3 years ago. Both MKE and MU in particular has improved substantially in the last few yrs so climate aside, MU has never been in a better position to compete for these students, but at the end of the day MU is all talk and no action. They say want to be a "national university" and destination school, but are unwilling to do what it takes to get there because it's anathema to their mission. Obviously I don't agree with their approach because the other schools I mentioned largely have the same mission.
First to address the question in the opening post. Lovell has done a very good job on buildings and acquiring property. I think he has made some solid movement in the direction of the Health Sciences. On the other hand, he has bent the school too much into the direction of the politically correct crowd. In doing so he has dumbed down the curriculum by getting rid of some of the core course requirements such as philosophy and theology s that make a Jesuit institution attractive and is pursuing a misguided admissions policy that seeks lower quality students in the name of diversity. Finally, he has not achieved anything meaningful in terms of growing the endowment beyond what stock market gains have achieved. That said he has gotten some meaningful dollars along the way for the buildings, so I would call the endowment a work in progress.
Second, to address the posters comments above. I believe MU has everything necessary to be included in the same discussion as BC, Fordham and Villanova. However, the school has a very parochial vision that blinds it to the upside in embracing its own strengths. Instead it aspires to be at the level of Chicago State, which is truly amazing. Marketing and positioning mean everything at the high end of academics. The world is a competitive place and MU is defining themselves in a non competitive way. There are plenty of double directional schools that fill the needs of the low end of the market. There are very few schools like MU that can legitimately compete at the high end, so why give that status up. Always aim high.
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Yeah, it was about the draft. You said the radical left was "armed with PhD's earned through draft deferments." Which is, of course, asinine, given that no one under the age of 62 has ever needed a draft deferment.
Sorry to have pointed our your very bad take.
Your failure to support what you wrote, replaced instead by your standard masturbatory drivel, is typical.
Thank you for proving the point of strident, imperceptive, eristic polemic.
Such an angry silly person you are. You demean the spirit of a Jesuit education.
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It's been my experience that the general student body is significantly more liberal than the faculty at the vast majority of campuses. Universities are not indoctrinating students. If anything they are reigning them in a keeping them from going too far to the left.
As it has been for years, the youngest generation is more liberal than the one before it. College is often the first time that a student has been encouraged to seek self determination rather than conformity. This creates the illusion that colleges turn students liberal. It's not the case, college is just the first place were they've been told its okay to choose their own ideologies.
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Thank you for proving the point of strident, imperceptive, eristic polemic.
Such an angry silly person you are. You demean the spirit of a Jesuit education.
So how does plagiarism fit with the "spirit of a Jesuit education?"
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Thank you for proving the point of strident, imperceptive, eristic polemic.
Such an angry silly person you are. You demean the spirit of a Jesuit education.
LOL. "I was made to look like a fool, but instead of admit I'm going to bull through with my ersatz umbrage and faux intellectualism routine."
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Let me see if I get this
1) We're screaming that there is an overwhelming liberal bias at universities across the nation, including our beloved Marquette.
2) One at least assumes that after four years of indoctrination, if a university is doing its job, these students leave a university as the next weapons in the liberal effort to govern the country. They are trained in liberal ways and indoctrinated in liberal thought.
But:
3) Donald J. Trump is President.
4) Conservative Republicans control the United States Senate and are a fairly strong minority in the House of Representatives.
5) The Supreme Court has a 5-4 conservative majority that's likely to be there for a long time to come.
6) The majority of governors in the United States are Republicans and, for the most part, conservative.
7) I may be wrong on this one but I believe the majority of state legislatures are controlled by Republicans and, therefore, conservatives.
My logic tells me that somewhere along the line, the folks that are coming out of college aren't as indoctrinated as Arguments 1 and 2 would suggest. The facts tell me two things. First, that students through the ages have been pretty good at listening and thinking for themselves regardless of what thought is presented in class. Second, that if universities view themselves as bastions of liberal thought, they've failed miserably in this endeavor.
It is an amazing thing that we in this country can switch governments every to four to eight years. Think about it. We went from Bill Clinton to George Bush to Barack Obama to Donald J. Trump. Our country and our people have an amazing way of, on the national level, avoiding going too fair in one direction or another.
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Let me see if I get this
1) We're screaming that there is an overwhelming liberal bias at universities across the nation, including our beloved Marquette.
2) One at least assumes that after four years of indoctrination, if a university is doing its job, these students leave a university as the next weapons in the liberal effort to govern the country. They are trained in liberal ways and indoctrinated in liberal thought.
But:
3) Donald J. Trump is President.
4) Conservative Republicans control the United States Senate and are a fairly strong minority in the House of Representatives.
5) The Supreme Court has a 5-4 conservative majority that's likely to be there for a long time to come.
6) The majority of governors in the United States are Republicans and, for the most part, conservative.
7) I may be wrong on this one but I believe the majority of state legislatures are controlled by Republicans and, therefore, conservatives.
My logic tells me that somewhere along the line, the folks that are coming out of college aren't as indoctrinated as Arguments 1 and 2 would suggest. The facts tell me two things. First, that students through the ages have been pretty good at listening and thinking for themselves regardless of what thought is presented in class. Second, that if universities view themselves as bastions of liberal thought, they've failed miserably in this endeavor.
It is an amazing thing that we in this country can switch governments every to four to eight years. Think about it. We went from Bill Clinton to George Bush to Barack Obama to Donald J. Trump. Our country and our people have an amazing way of, on the national level, avoiding going too fair in one direction or another.
Very well said. You must have a Superior upbringing.
And.... In before the lock.
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Very well said. You must have a Superior upbringing.
And.... In before the lock.
That and my Marquette education, which came from my Superior background!
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As I stated in the beginning, I tried to bring up a point of view from about as an apolitical stance as I could to how maybe MU could offer something a little closer to where it was, say 30-40 years ago. That maybe it would be a refreshing change from the “status quo”. It just seemed that over these past 30/40, if you weren’t hillsdale college, you were Berkeley. Why not something in between. Whenever asking why why why...follow the money
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As I stated in the beginning, I tried to bring up a point of view from about as an apolitical stance as I could to how maybe MU could offer something a little closer to where it was, say 30-40 years ago. That maybe it would be a refreshing change from the “status quo”. It just seemed that over these past 30/40, if you weren’t hillsdale college, you were Berkeley. Why not something in between. Whenever asking why why why...follow the money
Follow what money? I can pretty much guaranty you that Marquette's major donor base is significantly more conservative than the faculty and student body.
And its pretty hard to not make it political when you say crap like "if you weren't hillsdale college, you were Berekely." That's simply absurd. Marquette is nowhere close to Berkeley despite what an 80 year old dentist from Burlington thinks. I think your impression of what is going on at Marquette really doesn't match the reality, but instead of educating yourself on that point, you decided to go full "talking point."
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Follow what money? I can pretty much guaranty you that Marquette's major donor base is significantly more conservative than the faculty and student body.
And its pretty hard to not make it political when you say crap like "if you weren't hillsdale college, you were Berekely." That's simply absurd. Marquette is nowhere close to Berkeley despite what an 80 year old dentist from Burlington thinks. I think your impression of what is going on at Marquette really doesn't match the reality, but instead of educating yourself on that point, you decided to go full "talking point."
Happy Thanksgiving, Pontiff.
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As I stated in the beginning, I tried to bring up a point of view from about as an apolitical stance as I could to how maybe MU could offer something a little closer to where it was, say 30-40 years ago. That maybe it would be a refreshing change from the “status quo”. It just seemed that over these past 30/40, if you weren’t hillsdale college, you were Berkeley. Why not something in between. Whenever asking why why why...follow the money
What, specifically, was different at Marquette 30 years ago vs today?
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Watt's UW-Whitewater's USNWR's rankin' again, hey?
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It's been my experience that the general student body is significantly more liberal than the faculty at the vast majority of campuses. Universities are not indoctrinating students. If anything they are reigning them in a keeping them from going too far to the left.
As it has been for years, the youngest generation is more liberal than the one before it. College is often the first time that a student has been encouraged to seek self determination rather than conformity. This creates the illusion that colleges turn students liberal. It's not the case, college is just the first place were they've been told its okay to choose their own ideologies.
That may be a Texas thing. Washington Post found something different.
(https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/160113_LiberalProfessors1_Johnson.png)
Liberal professors outnumber conservative ones 12:1 in some areas
https://econjwatch.org/articles/faculty-voter-registration-in-economics-history-journalism-communications-law-and-psychology
More broadly across wider academic fields, 5:1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/11/the-dramatic-shift-among-college-professors-thats-hurting-students-education/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.88a57a2c5334
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That may be a Texas thing. Washington Post found something different.
(https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/160113_LiberalProfessors1_Johnson.png)
Liberal professors outnumber conservative ones 12:1 in some areas
https://econjwatch.org/articles/faculty-voter-registration-in-economics-history-journalism-communications-law-and-psychology
More broadly across wider academic fields, 5:1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/11/the-dramatic-shift-among-college-professors-thats-hurting-students-education/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.88a57a2c5334
Wow. 33.5 Democrat history profs for every 1 Republican. Speaks volumes.
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Wow. 33.5 Democrat history profs for every 1 Republican. Speaks volumes.
Yep. It’s been obvious for awhile that Republicans are poor students of history.
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That may be a Texas thing. Washington Post found something different.
(https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/160113_LiberalProfessors1_Johnson.png)
Liberal professors outnumber conservative ones 12:1 in some areas
https://econjwatch.org/articles/faculty-voter-registration-in-economics-history-journalism-communications-law-and-psychology
More broadly across wider academic fields, 5:1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/11/the-dramatic-shift-among-college-professors-thats-hurting-students-education/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.88a57a2c5334
Not just Texas thing. Also a Marquette, Michigan and Utah thing in my experience. I'd be curious how WaPo gathered that data. I would imagine most categorize themselves as moderate...but they're view of moderate may not be the same.
Liberal professors outnumbering conservative ones is no surprise. Those with higher levels of education have always leaned to the left.
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IBTL
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Not just Texas thing. Also a Marquette, Michigan and Utah thing in my experience. I'd be curious how WaPo gathered that data. I would imagine most categorize themselves as moderate...but they're view of moderate may not be the same.
Liberal professors outnumbering conservative ones is no surprise. Those with higher levels of education have always leaned to the left.
And I'm not exactly sure why it matters. I don't recall many political discussions in my classes at MU - outside Poly Sci. But even those weren't partisan. The idea that just because professors are liberal, therefore they indoctrinate their students in liberal thinking, doesn't really hold up.
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George Bernard Shaw- those who can’t do...
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I'm curious as to why professors tend to lean left.
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I'm curious as to why professors tend to lean left.
^^^^^^^^^^^
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I'm curious as to why professors tend to lean left.
I think it depends on the discipline.
Business professors don't lean left. Many STEM professors don't either. It's more in the humanities and social sciences. My guess is that it's because a lot of the "emerging research" in those areas is considered more liberal. (Women's and Gender Studies, etc.)
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“...what an 80 year old dentist from Burlington thinks”. Who said he thinks MU is Berkeley? I said he thinks MU has lost its way, in so many words.
My dad ain’t from Burlington - the Burlington dental society is a region which covers all of walworth and some of Racine county
I think I’m figuring you out though sully- you’re the Chico’s of your people, that’s if anyone is foolish enough to admit to being one of your peeps
Follow the money? Who do you think is paying the tuition? Hint- un$ecured loan$
To jesmu- what is different at MU today as opposed to 40-50 years ago? You could have a reasonable and civil conversation about philosophical and political differences.
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I'm curious as to why professors tend to lean left.
Educated people in general tend to lean left. The left does better with the more highly educated across all demographics.
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To jesmu- what is different at MU today as opposed to 40-50 years ago? You could have a reasonable and civil conversation about philosophical and political differences.
Again. What is specifically different at MU?
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Follow the money? Who do you think is paying the tuition? Hint- un$ecured loan$
What does that have to do with campuses supposedly being more liberal?
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“...what an 80 year old dentist from Burlington thinks”. Who said he thinks MU is Berkeley? I said he thinks MU has lost its way, in so many words.
If your dad has meant its changed from when he was in school, well no kidding. Look around. The world has changed. I know some people find that scary, but institutions need to adapt.
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And I'm not exactly sure why it matters. I don't recall many political discussions in my classes at MU - outside Poly Sci. But even those weren't partisan. The idea that just because professors are liberal, therefore they indoctrinate their students in liberal thinking, doesn't really hold up.
Candidly, my only concern about political tilt on campus is the whole issue of "safe speech." That we can't talk about certain things certain ways because someone might be offended.
It has been a long, long time since I was on campus but when I was (back in the 1970s), one of the most interesting and compelling debates was when a student challenged Catholic Social Justice teaching in the letters to the editor of the Marquette Tribune. His language was extreme and, to many folks, offensive, but it forcced a debate among the student body on our role in the Westtown community (which was far more problematic than it is today), whether social justice teachings were reasonable and whether we were enabling the receipients of our actions.
I won't argue that there were many people, students, professors and administrators, who wondered why the Tribune published these letters (there were either two or three from the original writer and several dozen reaction letters). But that's what college is supposed to be about. And, the debate was a forerunner of debates the Reagan Administration and George W. Bush Administration.
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I think the squelching of debate because of "safe space" issues is extremely exaggerated in scope.
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Educated people in general tend to lean left. The left does better with the more highly educated across all demographics.
Really? No point, then, in having any sort of meaningful discourse if that's firmly planted in your mind. The rest of us are obviously too stupid to understand the left's point of view. Maybe I should brush up on my Marxist/Leninist history since its inevitable, hey?
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Really? No point, then, in having any sort of meaningful discourse if that's firmly planted in your mind. The rest of us are obvious is too stupid to understand the lefts point of view. Maybe I should brush up on my Marxist/Leninist history since its inevitable, hey?
Statistically, college educated voters are more likely to vote left than non-college educated voters. That's not really new news or something that's hotly contested.
If you assume that most college professors have at the minimum a bachelor's degree, it makes sense they would follow that trend of people with higher education being more likely to lean left than people without. This isn't a political point, it's just how the numbers bear out.
If you want to get into the reasons for that, then it becomes more political, but as to the simple stats, it's pretty straightforward.
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Statistically, college educated voters are more likely to vote left than non-college educated voters. That's not really new news or something that's hotly contested.
If you assume that most college professors have at the minimum a bachelor's degree, it makes sense they would follow that trend of people with higher education being more likely to lean left than people without. This isn't a political point, it's just how the numbers bear out.
If you want to get into the reasons for that, then it becomes more political, but as to the simple stats, it's pretty straightforward.
And that's been a reverse of just a decade or so ago. Those with bachelor's degrees used to vote more Republican than Democrat, but that REALLY changed in 2016.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/
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To jesmu- what is different at MU today as opposed to 40-50 years ago? You could have a reasonable and civil conversation about philosophical and political differences.
Well, what are they? What are you pining for from 50 years ago?
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I am genuinely impressed with the transformation of the total campus environment. Marquette actually has a coherent campus.
I will say that I was surprised by The Al. It is much smaller from the outside than I anticipated. For some reason I pictured a much larger venue.
On the negative side, I am shaking my head over the absolute obliteration of the MU drinking infrastructure. The Wells Street Watering Hole, from 11th to 17th, has been erased from history.
Jim Hegarty's is now an empty lot. The Lanche and The Gym gave way to Burger King and Papa John's.
Hallowed Ground. Consecrated Earth. Precious Soil. Defiled.
Brother, you need to come back to campus more than once every 30 years!
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I think the squelching of debate because of "safe space" issues is extremely exaggerated in scope.
As someone who was recently in college. It's not. It's a real thing, maybe not completely systematic but it exists.
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As someone who was recently in college. It's not. It's a real thing, maybe not completely systematic but it exists.
As someone who has worked at four different universities over the last 11 years it is definitely overstated.
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As someone who has worked at four different universities over the last 11 years it is definitely overstated.
Yep.
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As someone who has worked at four different universities over the last 11 years it is definitely overstated.
I don’t know, Matt seems to be on the front lines tamu. What is overstated? With the exception of a very few news outlets, it doesn’t seem to be stated at all. So I find it difficult to be “overstated” because that would seem to mean any statement of it is exaggerated to the point that, nothing to see here, move along is the theme. Yet, whenever a personality who differs from the “conventional wisdom” of the group think of universities tries to hold an event, it doesn’t look very safe to me causing me to just avoid the area altogether. Which is what I believe the goal is...winning, eyn’a?
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I don’t know, Matt seems to be on the front lines tamu.
On the front lines? Cause he graduated from MU a couple years ago?
TAMU and I *work* everyday in higher education. We've both been at multiple institutions. If that's not "front lines," I don't know what is.
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Again. What is specifically different at MU?
Bump
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I don’t know, Matt seems to be on the front lines tamu. What is overstated? With the exception of a very few news outlets, it doesn’t seem to be stated at all. So I find it difficult to be “overstated” because that would seem to mean any statement of it is exaggerated to the point that, nothing to see here, move along is the theme. Yet, whenever a personality who differs from the “conventional wisdom” of the group think of universities tries to hold an event, it doesn’t look very safe to me causing me to just avoid the area altogether. Which is what I believe the goal is...winning, eyn’a?
Because literally hundreds of events that "differ from conventional wisdom" happen without incident on college campuses across the country every day. Events like Milos in Berkeley make up less than 1% of these events but demand 99.9% of the attention. Also, it's usually the students using their free speech to respond, not the University stopping an event.
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Because literally hundreds of events that "differ from conventional wisdom" happen without incident on college campuses across the country every day. Events like Milos in Berkeley make up less than 1% of these events but demand 99.9% of the attention. Also, it's usually the students using their free speech to respond, not the University stopping an event.
Alright, fair enough-I’m going to have to trust your integrity tamu, as you seem to be one of the most level headed posters on here allowing me to respect your insight in this area. That said, I still have a feeling that we could be doing better. I know I am going to be questioned on “doing better” but for fear of needing to get political, i am going to leave it at that. it’s just my opinion.
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As someone who has worked at four different universities over the last 11 years it is definitely overstated.
Over or under stated no matta. Why is it stated at all?
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Alright, fair enough-I’m going to have to trust your integrity tamu, as you seem to be one of the most level headed posters on here allowing me to respect your insight in this area. That said, I still have a feeling that we could be doing better. I know I am going to be questioned on “doing better” but for fear of needing to get political, i am going to leave it at that. it’s just my opinion.
Oh yeah. There is no doubt we can do better. It isn't a completely free marketplace of ideas that can be debated back and forth by any means.
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Over or under stated no matta. Why is it stated at all?
Because we live in an imperfect world.
Over/understated does matta. Especially when people try to pass corrective measures that treat an episodic problem as a pandemic problem. A local example of this could be the Larry vs. Buzz drama.
Also important, there is only so much righteous outrage to go around. It is a limited resource. I believe we should direct that precious resource at more critical and widespread problems.
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The thing is, we know there is a bias, right? But because the bias tilts toward those who have control over the bias, they see nothing the matta, ey? Everything’s cool. We’ve got a few issues but not too bad. That’s because ya can’t always get watcha want so let’s try to solve some of the more urgent and pressing needs like world hunger, homelessness and income inequality cuz we care more and if you don’t care, you are a fill in the blank whatever. He who has the biggest megaphone wins
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On the front lines? Cause he graduated from MU a couple years ago?
TAMU and I *work* everyday in higher education. We've both been at multiple institutions. If that's not "front lines," I don't know what is.
It means your insular view to what is going on in the world has shaped your view of reality.
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It means your insular view to what is going on in the world has shaped your view of reality.
See there kids? You're expertise developed working in an area over an extended time is a BAD thing.