Gregs Last Free Throw was Intentional Miss

[Herman Cain]

I suspected Greg's Second Free Throw was an intentional miss. Now we have confirmation.

https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/Shaka-after-MUs-73-72-win-over-Seton-Hall-180683511/

[Pakuni]

That's smart.

[tower912]

Mentioned multiple times.  Both Darryl and Coach Smart confirmed in their pressers.

[TallTitan34]

They are going to shoot a three either way so being up 1 or 2 doesn’t matter. Kill some clock.

[brewcity77]

He really should've went harder on the miss. If it comes off back iron and leads to any type of scrum, it's game over.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

He really should've went harder on the miss. If it comes off back iron and leads to any type of scrum, it's game over.

Did we have people on the line?

[cheebs09]

Did we have people on the line?

I believe they brought 2 up for the second free throw.

[jfp61]

Did we have people on the line?

yea jlew probably should hit it once. but he didn't want a foul there either.

It did what it was supposed to do, kill a few tenths of a second and forced them to pass from one single spot on the baseline.(even though a ref screwed that up at first)

[Pakuni]

He really should've went harder on the miss. If it comes off back iron and leads to any type of scrum, it's game over.

But that also runs the risk of missing the rim entirely.

[Goose]

Pakuni

For a guy that only hits net, intentionally hitting the rim should be quite easy.

[PointWarrior]

Would it not be more prudent to wait for Fluffy to state what actually happened?

I suspected Greg's Second Free Throw was an intentional miss. Now we have confirmation.

https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/Shaka-after-MUs-73-72-win-over-Seton-Hall-180683511/

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Would it not be more prudent to wait for Fluffy to state what actually happened?

You shouldn't let me bother you so much.

[brewcity77]

But that also runs the risk of missing the rim entirely.

Sure, but then you give them the ball, which was what happened anyway.

[1SE]

He really should've went harder on the miss. If it comes off back iron and leads to any type of scrum, it's game over.

Absolutely not right? Can't have any chance of a foul during the scrum. Miss abd make then convert from 90ft with 1 5 seconds.

[avid1010]

I can't agree with the intentional miss, but I seem to be in the minority, and obviously would conceed to Shaka and staff.  That said...Maybe if SH didn't have any TO's, but they had 2.  I think a few things could happen when you call for the intentional miss...
1.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the FT rebound.
2.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the inbounds play.
3.  You give SH a chance at a full court pass and Laetner type shot.
4.  You give SH a chance to through it across half court, call their last TO, and then get a make or foul going to the rim.

I'm not sure what you gain off the miss.  If they didn't have any TO's...makes perfect sense.

[Uncle Rico]

I can't agree with the intentional miss, but I seem to be in the minority, and obviously would conceed to Shaka and staff.  That said...Maybe if SH didn't have any TO's, but they had 2.  I think a few things could happen when you call for the intentional miss...
1.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the FT rebound.
2.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the inbounds play.
3.  You give SH a chance at a full court pass and Laetner type shot.
4.  You give SH a chance to through it across half court, call their last TO, and then get a make or foul going to the rim.

I'm not sure what you gain off the miss.  If they didn't have any TO's...makes perfect sense.

I’m in the make the shot crowd, especially with the officiating today.  Win some, lose some

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Missing the shot means SH can’t run the baseline after the TO. Kur just standing there means there aren’t a lot of options. That was the problem with the Laetner shot 

[GOO]

Probably doesn’t matter much either way. But with no time outs, I try to make the free throw. Agree that there are a lot of ways MU could foul and then loose.

[MU82]

I'm glad to hear it was an intentional miss because that was the smart move. Any tenths of a second that can come off the clock, the better.

For a guy that only hits net, intentionally hitting the rim should be quite easy.

Did Elliott steal your lunch money, Goose?

[StillWarriors]

Missing the shot means SH can’t run the baseline after the TO. Kur just standing there means there aren’t a lot of options. That was the problem with the Laetner shot

To me, this was the key benefit. Hall had timeouts left so the time was less of a factor than had they been forced into a live ball situation with no TOs coming off a miss.

[mileskishnish72]

He really should've went harder on the miss. If it comes off back iron and leads to any type of scrum, it's game over.

I know guys have said we have to practice FT's. Now we have to practice how to miss them?

[MU82]

I know guys have said we have to practice FT's. Now we have to practice how to miss them?

Every coach worth a damn has his or her team practice it, because there are at least two important situations in which a FT miss is beneficial.

The situation today was one. And obviously the other is if you're down a bucket with only 1 FT to go, you need to miss intentionally so you can go for the rebound and then score.

At higher levels, I have seen coaches work not only on missing FTs but missing a certain way to increase the likelihood of a favorable outcome.

Good coaches are prepared for every possible situation that can happen in a game.

[panda]

I know guys have said we have to practice FT's. Now we have to practice how to miss them?

It’s not hard - take your normal set up and move to the right or left a bit. Normal shot and it will be a miss more times than not.

[MUfan12]

I can't agree with the intentional miss, but I seem to be in the minority, and obviously would conceed to Shaka and staff.  That said...Maybe if SH didn't have any TO's, but they had 2.  I think a few things could happen when you call for the intentional miss...
1.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the FT rebound.
2.  You give the refs a chance to call a foul on the inbounds play.
3.  You give SH a chance at a full court pass and Laetner type shot.
4.  You give SH a chance to through it across half court, call their last TO, and then get a make or foul going to the rim.

I'm not sure what you gain off the miss.  If they didn't have any TO's...makes perfect sense.

This right here.

[mug644]

If he had made the free throw, and Seton Hall called a timeout, they would've been able to run the baseline AFTER the timeout? I presume that the timeout would eliminate that 'live ball' action.

Knowing they had timeouts remaining and would use them, I can't see how the tenths of a second burnt by missing a shot (and risking the fouling that we could have done), was worth it.

Another angle is that, if badness had happened and MU fouled someone, I'd rather be up 2 points than one.

I'm 100% on the Shaka bandwagon, but that strikes me as over-coaching. Or at least over-managing the game. Trying to make up for the other day?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

If he had made the free throw, and Seton Hall called a timeout, they would've been able to run the baseline AFTER the timeout? I presume that the timeout would eliminate that 'live ball' action.

Knowing they had timeouts remaining and would use them, I can't see how the tenths of a second burnt by missing a shot (and risking the fouling that we could have done), was worth it.

Another angle is that, if badness had happened and MU fouled someone, I'd rather be up 2 points than one.

I'm 100% on the Shaka bandwagon, but that strikes me as over-coaching. Or at least over-managing the game. Trying to make up for the other day?

If the second free throw was made, and SH would have called a TO without inbounding it, they would have been able to run the baseline.

[mug644]

I guess that changes the decision-making dynamic a bit. Still, without having the pedigree and insight of Shaka, I'd lean towards making both free throws.

[avid1010]

Missing the shot means SH can’t run the baseline after the TO. Kur just standing there means there aren’t a lot of options. That was the problem with the Laetner shot

IMHO...you're better off having a big throw that pass and not have him run...but have him back up off the court as far as he can.  It's not like Kur can't run with his hands up as well.  We've all seen him block a few shots off a run.  Willard should have had an inbounds play to get it across half court with the initial inbound and call another timeout.  They would have had it front court side out with 1.5 and he could have drawn up a play allowing for a dribble or pump fake.

[tower912]

Make both:  Timeout.  1.8 seconds, can run the baseline, lose on a 3.

Miss the second:  Timeout.  1.5 seconds, can't run the baseline, lose on a 3.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Make both:  Timeout.  1.8 seconds, can run the baseline, lose on a 3.

Miss the second:  Timeout.  1.5 seconds, can't run the baseline, lose on a 3.

Yep.

And avid they have no chance to advance to halfcourt, call TO and keep the clock above .3.

[tower912]

It isn't safe for me to have you agree with me.

[We R Final Four]

It’s not hard - take your normal set up and move to the right or left a bit. Normal shot and it will be a miss more times than not.

It’s funny you say that because GE sets up with his left foot centered on the FT line…so he is actually shooting to the right of center maybe 1’-2’? It works for him.
Understand your point though.

[mug644]

Make both:  Timeout.  1.8 seconds, can run the baseline, lose on a 3. Also, up 2, so if something crazy like MU fouls or Seton Hall's long pass gets within the 3-pt arc, overtime becomes more likely than a loss.

Miss the second:  Timeout.  1.5 seconds, can't run the baseline, lose on a 3.

Added a bit of precision for you.

Make the free throw next time, Greg. Says this know-nothing Mug.

[MU82]

As a coach, you do what you believe would give you the highest probability of success. Shaka decided (and many other coaches would have decided) that the odds were better for Marquette to win if we had a 1-point lead and a few more tenths of a second came off the clock and the inbounder couldn't run the baseline than if we had a 2-point lead and there were a few more tenths of a second on the clock and the inbounder could have run the baseline.

I happen to agree with Shaka, but I'm sure there are other coaches who would agree with you.

The result of Shaka's decision was a Marquette victory. Seton Hall didn't even catch the pass, let alone get off the shot. Ipso fatso, Shaka's decision ended up being correct.

[tower912]

I am intrigued that Darryl and Coach Smart used the same phrase.... The team convinced him to miss the second.

'The team'.   Not the coaches?   Was a player running the huddle?

[mug644]

I will always defer to Shaka's coaching. He will always make better "live" decisions than I could make. Even if I get the luxury of sitting on my couch, drinking a nice bourbon and second-guessing him.

And, as you say, MU won. All is good!

[TallTitan34]

Glad to see Shaka pass his first test.

[burger]

Better attention to detail than the Creighton fiasco.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Missing the 2nd is the right decision.

[We R Final Four]

As a coach, you do what you believe would give you the highest probability of success. Shaka decided (and many other coaches would have decided) that the odds were better for Marquette to win if we had a 1-point lead and a few more tenths of a second came off the clock and the inbounder couldn't run the baseline than if we had a 2-point lead and there were a few more tenths of a second on the clock and the inbounder could have run the baseline.

I happen to agree with Shaka, but I'm sure there are other coaches who would agree with you.

The result of Shaka's decision was a Marquette victory. Seton Hall didn't even catch the pass, let alone get off the shot. Ipso fatso, Shaka's decision ended up being correct.

That miss took exactly 1/10 of one second off  the clock. Forcing the TO, and not allowing the inbounding player to run the baseline is more likely to have a bigger impact in the last second shot.

[Daniel]

I am intrigued that Darryl and Coach Smart used the same phrase.... The team convinced him to miss the second.

'The team'.   Not the coaches?   Was a player running the huddle?

Probably sign of a good coach when the players suggest what Shaka would want to do anyway.    Very good. 

[4everwarriors]

Plus Shaka's good dancer, aina?

[Daniel]

Plus Shaka's good dancer, aina?

Lol loved the tweet with him dancing….. great attitude and leader

[brewcity77]

I guess that changes the decision-making dynamic a bit. Still, without having the pedigree and insight of Shaka, I'd lean towards making both free throws.

From the postgame, that was a player decision. Shaka said the players definitely wanted the deliberate miss if Greg made the first, so he went with it. Unless they Laettner it (unlikely with Kur guarding the inbounder) the only real shot for SHU was a half court heave, in which case one or two doesn't matter.

That seems like a big statement of confidence in the players to let them make that decision.

[bilsu]

Wisconsin recently did the same thing. I do not think making the second free throw helps much, since in either case the last shot by the opponent is almost for sure going to be a three point shot. The only risk I see is being dumb enough to foul.

[warriorchick]

He will always make better "live" decisions than I could make. Even if I get the luxury of sitting on my couch, drinking a nice bourbon and second-guessing him.

You realize you are in the minority on this board with this opinion, no matter who the coach is.

[Jockey]

I am intrigued that Darryl and Coach Smart used the same phrase.... The team convinced him to miss the second.

'The team'.   Not the coaches?   Was a player running the huddle?

In the mic’d up game I saw a couple times where players made suggestions during a time out. Surprisingly, it was young guys - Jones & Osa if I remember correctly.

I thought at the time there must be a great coaching atmosphere if freshmen feel that comfortable.

[avid1010]

Yep.

And avid they have no chance to advance to halfcourt, call TO and keep the clock above .3.

So MU can miss a FT and SH can board it and get a timeout with .3 coming off, but they can't catch a pass and call a timeout with .3 coming off? 

I'm not saying Shaka was wrong...but your math is.

[avid1010]

Wisconsin recently did the same thing. I do not think making the second free throw helps much, since in either case the last shot by the opponent is almost for sure going to be a three point shot. The only risk I see is being dumb enough to foul.

I'd whip that ball at the rim and hope they foul on the catch...especially if I felt the refs owed me one.

[CountryRoads]

Yep.

And avid they have no chance to advance to halfcourt, call TO and keep the clock above .3.

This is true, but I’m almost positive seton hall had one more timeout even after they called one after the miss. Unless you are talking about the feasibility of making the pass without being able to run the baseline, which is much tougher. Missing the free throw was the right call. It seems the players were all over it.

[MU82]

That miss took exactly 1/10 of one second off  the clock. Forcing the TO, and not allowing the inbounding player to run the baseline is more likely to have a bigger impact in the last second shot.

OK.

[tower912]

In the mic’d up game I saw a couple times where players made suggestions during a time out. Surprisingly, it was young guys - Jones & Osa if I remember correctly.

I thought at the time there must be a great coaching atmosphere if freshmen feel that comfortable.

I remember that also and that is why the comment stood out to me.

[MU82]

From the postgame, that was a player decision. Shaka said the players definitely wanted the deliberate miss if Greg made the first, so he went with it. Unless they Laettner it (unlikely with Kur guarding the inbounder) the only real shot for SHU was a half court heave, in which case one or two doesn't matter.

That seems like a big statement of confidence in the players to let them make that decision.

I agree that it's really cool that our coach gives his players a voice ... although this actually was the players' suggestion but Shaka's decision.

[murphmurphy]

How does the time keeper turn the clock on and turn it off in 1/10th or 3 /10ths of a second?  How long does it take to say "Time Out" to the official after you possess the ball. If I were coaching I would always do whatever I could to prevent the in-bounder from being able to run the base line and guard him with my biggest defender.  You can watch the ending again and see SH couldn't get a clean pass to half court.   

[Stretchdeltsig]

It was a smart call by Shaka. Only wish he would have called for fouling the inbounds receiver at the end of the Creighton game to seal our win.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So MU can miss a FT and SH can board it and get a timeout with .3 coming off, but they can't catch a pass and call a timeout with .3 coming off? 

I'm not saying Shaka was wrong...but your math is.

I think it would be damn near impossible to do so.  You would have to make a pass with Kur standing right in front of you, to someone about 50 feel away, who catches and controls it before calling a timeout.  And at no point can the ball touch another player.  It can't be tipped, dropped, etc.

I just don't see how that can happen.

[CTWarrior]

I would have preferred a make there, just because of the risk of a foul.  Especially with that crew.

[Goose]

CTWarrior

While I am a fan of the intentional miss, I cannot argue your point. Especially after the reasoning behind not fouling at Creighton game. I think Shaka is 1-1 on these calls and fortunately we are 1-1 in the games.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

CTWarrior

While I am a fan of the intentional miss, I cannot argue your point. Especially after the reasoning behind not fouling at Creighton game. I think Shaka is 1-1 on these calls and fortunately we are 1-1 in the games.

The "reasoning behind not fouling at (sic) Creighton" has nothing to do with yesterday.  The situations were tactically unrelated to one another.

[Goose]

Fluff

Shaka noted he did not foul late in the Creighton game because he was afraid of a silly foul, the same holds true on the intentional miss yesterday. A coach's decision to foul or not foul is very similar to the intentional miss. That said, thank you again for being the voice of reason and knowledge on Scoop. I will definitely be more careful in bunching things together moving forward.

[BallBoy]

At the end of the day Seton Hall was in a low probability scenario which is what you want. I don’t think making or missing really increases or decreases SH probability of winning.

When watching the game, I thought miss it and they will use the full 1.8 with the rebound and getting to a spot where they have momentum to shoot but they only lost .3 seconds. They had the ball and TO before they could even started the clock. They had to adjust the tenths later.

Looking back I don’t think it matters but I would say make it. At that point SH was in the Bonus so any unintentional foul, make up call, ref mistake puts them on the line with a chance to win.

I do appreciate Dickie Simpkins making up the on a missed free throw, if you call timeout, you can run the baseline rule. It totally made up for the refs forgetting it was a missed free throw and telling SH they could run the baseline.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fluff

Shaka noted he did not foul late in the Creighton game because he was afraid of a silly foul, the same holds true on the intentional miss yesterday. A coach's decision to foul or not foul is very similar to the intentional miss. That said, thank you again for being the voice of reason and knowledge on Scoop. I will definitely be more careful in bunching things together moving forward.

They aren't similar in the least, which is obvious considering Shaka treated the situations differently. 

[Goose]

Fluff

I think very late in game coaching decisions are similar, but like I said, thank you for pointing out my incorrect post. Looking forward to reading more of your posts today.

[4everwarriors]

Fluff

I think very late in game coaching decisions are similar, but like I said, thank you for pointing out my incorrect post. Looking forward to reading 300 more of your posts today.




Goose, I fixed it for you, hey?

[Goose]

Doc,

It is not a workday, and the posts will be limited to approx. 175 today. He is lot more active during the week.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Doc,

It is not a workday, and the posts will be limited to approx. 175 today. He is lot more active during the week.

Why is it so hard for you to accept criticism of your posts without making it personal?

Not that I care really, but it’s just really odd.

[Goose]

Fluff

You are right, WTF do I care when you post most frequently. Post away!!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fluff

You are right, WTF do I care when you post most frequently. Post away!!

Have a nice day Goose!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Lol loved the tweet with him dancing….. great attitude and leader

I imagine that nolongerwarriors loved that, too, very, very much. Sadly, we'll never know because, as seems to happen after every MU win, he was suddenly disconnected from the internet.

[Viper]

I’m in the make the shot crowd, especially with the officiating today.  Win some, lose some

i’m with you. (I’m also not convinced the intentional foul up 3 is the correct play, but I digress).

[Viper]

As a coach, you do what you believe would give you the highest probability of success. Shaka decided (and many other coaches would have decided) that the odds were better for Marquette to win if we had a 1-point lead and a few more tenths of a second came off the clock and the inbounder couldn't run the baseline than if we had a 2-point lead and there were a few more tenths of a second on the clock and the inbounder could have run the baseline.

I happen to agree with Shaka, but I'm sure there are other coaches who would agree with you.

The result of Shaka's decision was a Marquette victory. Seton Hall didn't even catch the pass, let alone get off the shot. Ipso fatso, Shaka's decision ended up being correct.

didn’t ipso fatso live in the Blue House on n.18th?

[MU82]

ipso fatso

Archie Bunker, 704 Hauser St, used to say it all the time.

[Viper]

Archie Bunker, 704 Hauser St, used to say it all the time.

prior, my attempt at humor. btw, Archie Bunker on Hauser Street. If only that show had been set in Milwaukee.

[warriorchick]

prior, my attempt at humor. btw, Archie Bunker on Hauser Street. If only that show had been set in Milwaukee.

I actually looked up on Zillow the house that they show during the credits a few years ago. Its value at the time was over $600k. Probably over $700k now.

Not a bad investment for a forklift driver.