COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[wadesworld]

We also have the second lowest mortality rate in the industrialized world for COVID 19 per capita.  Only Germany is better.  There are many countries, both conservative and progressive, with universal health care and without, with their own experts that are having problems, too.   Per capita is the correct way to look at this data.

Do you honestly think in an election year that someone else would have shut things down quicker?  I do not.  Can provide examples from both sides that show that to be true.

Thank you for your unbiased, even perspective cheek...wait, no. Definitely not cheeks.

[WarriorDad]

Interesting...and pretty damning for the CDC that it was embedded and involved from the beginning, and yet messed up its test development efforts so badly. If CDC had developed and rolled out a test in late January or early February (when other countries were already successfully testing for the virus), we would be in a very different place than we are right now.

I don’t know if was just CDC‘s screwups,  or if the Trump administration‘s very public anti-science stance also played a role in disempowering them, but something is severely wrong there...

The WHO is no different.  This is why your continued insistence to have CDC run the show is not connecting with me.  Fauci has admitted a number of mistakes which is refreshing, but also concerning.  There is no simple playbook for this as much as people wish there was.

[wadesworld]

The WHO is no different.  This is why your continued insistence to have CDC run the show is not connecting with me.  Fauci has admitted a number of mistakes which is refreshing, but also concerning.  There is no simple playbook for this as much as people wish there was.

Well, it’s much simpler than “here are the guidelines for what we need to do to reopen the economy” one day and “go out and protest!” the next.

But wait. Let me guess. You can find contradicting messages from liberals too. Both sides. Not just one.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The WHO is no different.  This is why your continued insistence to have CDC run the show is not connecting with me.  Fauci has admitted a number of mistakes which is refreshing, but also concerning.  There is no simple playbook for this as much as people wish there was.

Fauci does not run nor has responsibility for the CDC.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Do you honestly think in an election year that someone else would have shut things down quicker?

How about be prepared in the first place, and then actually pay attention when the experts warn you of a developing pandemic?

Here is a detailed, sourced, blow-by-blow account of what lead up to this. I know conservative members won't read it, but maybe Both Sides WarriorDad will?

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/04/this-stunningly-detailed-timeline-of-trumps-failures-shows-americas-coronavirus-crisis-was-a-man-made-disaster/

[tower912]

Do you honestly think in an election year that someone else would have shut things down quicker? 

Abso-freaking-lutely.   Besides the fact it is right thing to do, three political reasons.
1.  Get it right, demonstrate competence and compassion and have demonstrably better numbers than the rest of the world.
2.   Demonstrate statesmanship.   'In a time like this, protecting the people of this country is more important than my re-election.'
3.  Neutralize your opponent by offering to put him to work, that it is all hands on deck.

Do that and it is Reagan-Mondale redux.

[GooooMarquette]

The WHO is no different.  This is why your continued insistence to have CDC run the show is not connecting with me.  Fauci has admitted a number of mistakes which is refreshing, but also concerning.  There is no simple playbook for this as much as people wish there was.

Sorry my comments about the CDC “aren’t connecting” with you. Perhaps you should read CDC’s mission statement, which I posted several pages back.

[pbiflyer]

We also have the second lowest mortality rate in the industrialized world for COVID 19 per capita.  Only Germany is better.  There are many countries, both conservative and progressive, with universal health care and without, with their own experts that are having problems, too.   Per capita is the correct way to look at this data.

Do you honestly think in an election year that someone else would have shut things down quicker?  I do not.  Can provide examples from both sides that show that to be true.

What exactly did he shut down? Governors shut down their individual states or in some cases didn’t.
If you are talking about the “China travel ban” that was a joke, as the US carriers had already stopped and only prevented Chinese nationals from traveling from China.

[forgetful]

We also have the second lowest mortality rate in the industrialized world for COVID 19 per capita.  Only Germany is better.  There are many countries, both conservative and progressive, with universal health care and without, with their own experts that are having problems, too.   Per capita is the correct way to look at this data.

What are you defining as industrialized world?

Even amongst the G8 (highly industrialized nations) we are behind Japan, Russia, Canada, and Germany, in that order. So we are in 5th place out of 8. Worldwide we are the 10th worst in terms of mortality rate per capita.

[GooooMarquette]

Georgia looks to be at the front of the second wave by reopening many businesses even though the numbers are still increasing.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/20/839338550/georgia-beginning-to-reopen-its-economy-lifting-some-coronavirus-crisis-limits

Then again, their well-informed governor  has always been right on top of this. Well...except for the fact that he was the last human with an internet connection to learn that COVID19 can be transmitted by asymptomatic carriers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/georgia-gov-brian-kemp-admits-he-just-learned-asymptomatic-people-n1174976

[pbiflyer]

I suspect he is calculating deaths/cases for this. Now if you use deaths/recovered we are near dead last.
You are using death/population.

[forgetful]

I suspect he is calculating deaths/cases for this. Now if you use deaths/recovered we are near dead last.
You are using death/population.

I think this was in reply to my question. Even by deaths/case, which is a terrible metric to use, we are still 5th out of the G8.

I think he just made it up, or defined "industrialized" by whatever metric served his purpose.

[rocky_warrior]

What are you defining as industrialized world?

He's just misstating exactly what he heard in Trump's briefing from Saturday:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-briefing-2/

On a per capita basis — remember that: On a per capita basis, our mortality rate is far lower than other nations of Western Europe, with the lone exception of possibly Germany.  This includes the UK, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, France.  Spain, for example, has a mortality rate that is nearly four times that of the United States, but you don’t hear that.  You hear we have more death.  But we’re much bigger countries than any of those countries by far.

[GooooMarquette]

Trump says he will issue an executive order suspending immigration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/us/coronavirus-live-news.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

He is so confident that we have this solved that he calls to “liberate” states ASAP, but so concerned about the spread that he suspends immigration. Yeah - vilifying the “others” is gonna solve this....

[rocky_warrior]

Well, this is *potentially* good news.  As noted, still not proven that the test is accurate or how long immunity lasts:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus-antibody-testing-shows-la-county-outbreak-is-up-to-55-times-bigger-than-reported-cases.html

[Lennys Tap]

Trump says he will issue an executive order suspending immigration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/us/coronavirus-live-news.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

He is so confident that we have this solved that he calls to “liberate” states ASAP, but so concerned about the spread that he suspends immigration. Yeah - vilifying the “others” is gonna solve this....

60 million new folks unemployed, economy and citizens locked down, flights shut down from China and Europe, etc., etc., etc., - but temporarily suspending immigration in the midst of this is vilifying the “others”.

You’re all in with Governors who won’t allow their citizens to buy seeds, paint or go fishing (by themselves) but temporarily closing our borders is vilifying the “others”. Sheesh.

[Pakuni]

You’re all in with Governors who won’t allow their citizens to buy seeds, paint or go fishing (by themselves) but temporarily closing our borders is vilifying the “others”. Sheesh.

Which governors have done this?

[Lennys Tap]

Which governors have done this?

In Michigan large retailers are banned from selling seeds, paint, garden supplies, etc.. If you have a motor on your boat you are not allowed to go on any lakes for fishing, etc..

Lottery tickets sales continue. Some things are more essential than others.

[GooooMarquette]

60 million new folks unemployed, economy and citizens locked down, flights shut down from China and Europe, etc., etc., etc., - but temporarily suspending immigration in the midst of this is vilifying the “others”.

You’re all in with Governors who won’t allow their citizens to buy seeds, paint or go fishing (by themselves) but temporarily closing our borders is vilifying the “others”. Sheesh.

Yes - closing the borders when the virus is already rampant here and there is no evidence that current immigrants are increasing the spread is vilifying the “others.” It’s especially obvious given that he is simultaneously turning a blind eye to states that are reopening in contravention to his recent three-phase guidelines.

If he wants to make real progress in preventing further spread, he should tell the governors of South Carolina, Georgia and Tennessee to follow the guidelines that HE ISSUED JUST LAST WEEK, and then send out the test kits he keeps promising.

Honest yes or no question: Do you think it’s good for the country that he issued a very well-reasoned three-phase plan for reopening, and then: (1) tweeted about “liberating” several states that don’t meet the reopening criteria; and (2) ignores states that are openly contravening the guidelines?

[Pakuni]

In Michigan large retailers are banned from selling seeds, paint, garden supplies, etc.. If you have a motor on your boat you are not allowed to go on any lakes for fishing, etc..

Nope. You can buy paint, seeds and gardening supplies in Michigan.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/15/facebook-posts/covid-order-doesnt-ban-gardening-or-sale-seeds-and/

And nope. You can go fishing in Michigan (including by yourself).

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98810-523692--,00.html

And you said "governors" as far as my limited reading comprehension skills can tell.

[Lennys Tap]

Yes - closing the borders when the virus is already rampant here and there is no evidence that current immigrants are increasing the spread is vilifying the “others.” It’s especially obvious given that he is simultaneously turning a blind eye to states that are reopening in contravention to his recent three-phase guidelines.

If he wants to make real progress in preventing further spread, he should tell the governors of South Carolina, Georgia and Tennessee to follow the guidelines that HE ISSUED JUST LAST WEEK, and then send out the test kits he keeps promising.

Honest yes or no question: Do you think it’s good for the country that he issued a very well-reasoned three-phase plan for reopening, and then: (1) tweeted about “liberating” several states that don’t meet the reopening criteria; and (2) ignores states that are openly contravening the guidelines?

The virus is “rampant” in very small areas of our country. The denser the population, the closer to International airports, the more likely it is rampant. If we’re locking things down (quarantines when citizens go from state to state) what’s wrong with temporarily locking down our borders? Nobody is blaming the “others”, it’s a temporary safety thing that would make perfect sense to you under anyone else’s leadership.

On your last point, I think it’s frustrating, counter productive and wrong that Trump is sending mixed messages on reopening. He’s listening to Fauci on one hand and his economic team on the other but if he going to flip back and forth he needs to a) concede that’s what he’s doing and b) give sound reasons why. Highly unlikely.

[Lennys Tap]

Nope. You can buy paint, seeds and gardening supplies in Michigan.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/15/facebook-posts/covid-order-doesnt-ban-gardening-or-sale-seeds-and/

And nope. You can go fishing in Michigan (including by yourself).

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98810-523692--,00.html

And you said "governors" as far as my limited reading comprehension skills can tell.

As I said, the ban (still in place) is for large retailers.

Re fishing in a motorized boat, it’s possible she’s given in and revised her previous order.

[GooooMarquette]

The virus is “rampant” in very small areas of our country. The denser the population, the closer to International airports, the more likely it is rampant. If we’re locking things down (quarantines when citizens go from state to state) what’s wrong with temporarily locking down our borders? Nobody is blaming the “others”, it’s a temporary safety thing that would make perfect sense to you under anyone else’s leadership.

On your last point, I think it’s frustrating, counter productive and wrong that Trump is sending mixed messages on reopening. He’s listening to Fauci on one hand and his economic team on the other but if he going to flip back and forth he needs to a) concede that’s what he’s doing and b) give sound reasons why. Highly unlikely.

Have you double-checked the data on the underlined?

I have been keeping close tabs on MN (where I live) and the immediately surrounding states of WI, IA, ND and SD. Of those five states, MSP has the overwhelming majority of international passengers...and yet MN has the lowest per capita infection rate in the region by a WIDE MARGIN. Current data from Johns Hopkins:

SD: 190/100k residents
IA: 100/100k residents
ND: 82/100k residents
WI:  77/100k residents
MN: 44/100k residents

I also find it interesting that AL (whose governor was late to close, using the infamous line that “we are not California”) has a higher rate than - you guessed it - California.

AL: 104/100k residents
CA: 85/100k residents

Wanna guess which state has more recent immigrants?

[rocky_warrior]

As I said, the ban (still in place) is for large retailers.

And this is a nuance (for both sides). Certain sections of large stores have to be closed off. However there's no ban on selling items that may be in those sections. Just less likely people will buy if they can't get to the items themselves.

[Lennys Tap]

Have you double-checked the data on the underlined?

I have been keeping close tabs on MN (where I live) and the immediately surrounding states of WI, IA, ND and SD. Of those five states, MSP has the overwhelming majority of international passengers...and yet MN has the lowest per capita infection rate in the region by a WIDE MARGIN. Current data from Johns Hopkins:

SD: 190/100k residents
IA: 100/100k residents
ND: 82/100k residents
WI:  77/100k residents
MN: 44/100k residents

I also find it interesting that AL (whose governor was late to close, using the infamous line that “we are not California”) has a higher rate than - you guessed it - California.

AL: 104/100k residents
CA: 85/100k residents

Wanna guess which state has more recent immigrants?

We have different definitions of “rampant”. Six (6) people have died in S Dakota from Covid19 (They did have an outbreak at a meat packing plant, I think - but I think it was contained) and they’ve pretty much stayed open for business.

Statistics are funny. If you have a penny and I give you another one you’ve increased your net worth by 100%!!! But you still only have 2 cents. To me rampant is New York City and to a lesser extent Detroit, Chicago, and other cities.