MLB 2016

[jmayer1]

Hmmm.  I would say it is debatable, but it would be much more difficult to be on the side of the debate that Bagwell is better than either Thomas or Cabrera.

It's not just about hitting though. Bagwell was a very good defensive 1st baseman and base runner. I haven't dug into this too much, but he does have a higher WAR per BR than either of those guys.

Bagwell - 79.6 WAR in 2,150 games
Cabrera - 69.6 WAR in 2,096 games (to-date)
Thomas - 73.7 WAR in 2,322 games

I think the JAWS metric at BR is also pretty cool to look at. Of course, these metrics aren't the end all, be all to judge and are just one data point, that's why it's a debate.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml

[buckchuckler]

It's not just about hitting though. Bagwell was a very good defensive 1st baseman and base runner. I haven't dug into this too much, but he does have a higher WAR per BR than either of those guys.

Bagwell - 79.6 WAR in 2,150 games
Cabrera - 69.6 WAR in 2,096 games (to-date)
Thomas - 73.7 WAR in 2,322 games

I think the JAWS metric at BR is also pretty cool to look at. Of course, these metrics aren't the end all, be all to judge and are just one data point, that's why it's a debate.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml

Bagwell was certainly a better defender, but none of those three will be remembered for their defense.  None of those three are in the hall (or will be in Cabrera's case) because of their defense.     I think defense can certainly get guys into the hall of fame, but not first-basemen.

Bagwell finished top 5 in MVP voting 3 times with 1 win.  Frank Thomas was 6 times with 2 wins and Cabrera has (so far) 6 with 2 wins.

Personally I would rate them,
Frank Thomas
Miguel Cabrera (now, Cabrera will be 1 by the time he is finished barring some sort of compete collapse)
Jeff Bagwell

But they are all great, and all quite similar players.  Especially as hitters. 

[dgies9156]

It is not  a legitimate Hall of Fame until they admit Barry Bonds, Pete Rose  and Roger Clemens.

Maybe with Bonds, his hat on his plaque can have a syringe on it instead of a team logo! Rose's should have a dollar sign.

Regardless, Rose was one of the greatest players of his time and Bonds and his steroids helped save baseball.
 

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Regardless, Rose was one of the greatest players of his time and Bonds and his steroids helped save baseball.
 

There's a common argument, (which I don't agree with), that McGwire/Sosa "saved" baseball in '98.  I have never heard the argument that Bonds saved baseball in '01, (when he jumped to 73 HRs from 49 in '00).

[dgies9156]

There's a common argument, (which I don't agree with), that McGwire/Sosa "saved" baseball in '98.  I have never heard the argument that Bonds saved baseball in '01, (when he jumped to 73 HRs from 49 in '00).

Bonds was part of the steroid enthusiasm of the late 1990s and early 2000s. Was he as important as McGwire/Sosa? Nope.

Did his steroids put butts in seats? Of course they did.

Hot dogs, beer, cracker jacks and steroids. As baseball as Gaylord Perry's grease balls!

[jesmu84]

Gotta let in everyone associated with PEDs or no one. And certainly can't be against one year and for another year (same player).

You've got tons of other known drug users in the hall already. The steroid era is a part of baseball history just like cocaine and whatever else. Put them in their own wing.

[tower912]

It is a museum.  Put them in but tell the honest story

[brandx]

It is a museum.  Put them in but tell the honest story

Actually, the HOF is just one wing of the baseball museum. Rose, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc. are already represented in the museum.

But, I agree with you and Jesmu. They should be in the HOF as well. If there needs to be a designation that says they were part of the steroid era, then so be it.

Maybe there should be a designation on Stargell or Schmidt's plaque that they were part of the cocaine era, or on the plaques of Mantle and Ruth that their careers were largely fueled by alcohol. I don't know what the right answer is.

[Lennys Tap]

Maybe there should be a designation on Stargell or Schmidt's plaque that they were part of the cocaine era, or on the plaques of Mantle and Ruth that their careers were largely fueled by alcohol. I don't know what the right answer is.

Mantle and Ruth were great in spite of alcohol. Sammy Sosa was great because of steroids. Totally different. Don't think cocaine was performance enhancing either. Speed (aka "greenies") were available and probably somewhat enhancing. But nothing compares to steroids. Brady Anderson with 51 home runs? Really? Would Jose Canseco even been a major league player without them?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Mantle and Ruth were great in spite of alcohol. Sammy Sosa was great because of steroids. Totally different. Don't think cocaine was performance enhancing either. Speed (aka "greenies") were available and probably somewhat enhancing. But nothing compares to steroids. Brady Anderson with 51 home runs? Really? Would Jose Canseco even been a major league player without them?

You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.

[buckchuckler]

You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.

This seems ridiculous.  They make you stronger.  The stronger you are the harder you can swing the bat.  The harder you swing the bat the farther the ball travels.
The harder you swing the bat the longer you can wait to swing.  The longer you can wait to swing the chance of missing a pitch lessens.   The longer you wait to swing the more time you have to recognize the pitch.

Bonds career SLG was .559 going into 2000, his age 35 season.   From that point on in his career he slugged .724 (That is about .50 higher than his career high to that point, do guys always get waaaaaaay better in their late 30s?).  But yeah you are probably right, steroids don't help you swing it any better.

Canseco said himself that he wouldn't have been an MLB player if not for the steroids.  And as for a guy like Sosa, well, how do you know when he started using?  It very well could have been as early as like 1993.  Canseco and Ken Caminiti were certainly using as early as that. 

[MU82]

You really give too much credit to steroids. Sosa was still a damn good player without the roids, he McGwire, Bonds, Clemons should all be in there. Steroids dont make you swing a bat any faster.

Sosa was a mid-30 HR guy before he started juicing. Almost overnight, he became a 60 HR guy.

McGwire has 583 career HR. From 1996-99, when he finally admitted to juicing like crazy after years of lying, he hit almost 200 of those HR.

Bonds never had a 50 HR season. Enter the syringe ... 73.

As another Scooper said, Brady Anderson.

How about Luis Gonzalez?

Please.

You can say "everybody did it." Or you can say, "Even those who didn't do it are guilty by association because they sat idly by knowing their peers were doing it." Or you can say, "Most fans don't care, so why should the BBWAA voters who pick HoF?" But don't pretend they didn't have a very, very real effect on the game's statistics.

Steroids are proven science. That's why, even today with all the penalties known and the testing very common, athletes STILL try to get away with taking them. They work!

[buckchuckler]

Tough night for the MLB family last night. As both Andy Marte and Yordano Ventura were killed in car accidents.

[tower912]

RIP.    Don't drink and drive. 

[buckchuckler]

RIP.    Don't drink and drive.

According to reports, alcohol was not a factor in the Ventura crash.   I haven't heard either way on Marte.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

RIP.    Don't drink and drive.

It may be a good idea to stay out of cars in the DR altogether.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/royals-ventura-killed-car-crash-dominican-republic-44968875

"The Dominican Republic has the second-highest traffic-related death rate in the world — officials there believe alcohol, speed and a blatant disregard for traffic laws is to blame. Oscar Taveras, Jose Oliva, Rufino Linares and Jose Uribe are among players who have died in crashes in the country.

It wasn't known whether Ventura had been drinking or speeding at the time of his accident."

[buckchuckler]

The Cardinals will lose their top 2 draft picks in this years draft to the Astros due to the Cardinals hacking the Astros system.

[Windyplayer]

Good for the MLB. That's a pretty stern message to the Cards' organization.

[buckchuckler]

Yeah, 2M fine as well.  Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist).  I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards. 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Yeah, 2M fine as well.  Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist).  I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards. 

It wasn't me that was bitching but this punishment is pretty light. The Cards already didn't have a first round pick this year and the fact that they are gifted a competitive balance pick each year is a joke as it is. It wasn't nothing but that doesn't send too strong of a message.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

The Cardinals will lose their top 2 draft picks in this years draft to the Astros due to the Cardinals hacking the Astros system.

St. Louis has already given up their first-found pick (which was 19th overall) to the Cubs when they signed Dexter Fowler.  If MLB has made this decision earlier, the Astros would not have had to wait until Round 2 to get the pick from the Cardinals.

[brandx]

Yeah, 2M fine as well.  Seems pretty strong (The picks, 2M to an MLB team is a slap on the wrist).  I don't remember who, but there was someone here that kept bitching that nothing would happen to the Cards.

$2M is pocket change - basically they got fined what they would pay a below average middle reliever.

The picks, as well, are not a big penalty. Once you get past the first 10-15 picks, the draft is a crap shoot. The vast majority of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounders never even become starting players in the bigs.

If this had been handed down in a timely manner, then it would have at least meant something - they would not have been able to sign Fowler. As it is, it is just a light slap on the wrist.

Crime pays!!

[buckchuckler]

I disagree.  It is their top 2 picks.  Yes, they already lost their top pick, but still.  It will also reduce their overall pool for the draft and basically gives them no ability to sign any over-slot players down in the draft.  And while the majority of those players never become regulars, there are players drafted there every year that are drafted in those rounds.  This also doesn't allow them to restock their farm system in the middle of the year, and could impact their willingness to trade current players to help their roster mid-season.   

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I disagree.  It is their top 2 picks.  Yes, they already lost their top pick, but still.  It will also reduce their overall pool for the draft and basically gives them no ability to sign any over-slot players down in the draft.  And while the majority of those players never become regulars, there are players drafted there every year that are drafted in those rounds.  This also doesn't allow them to restock their farm system in the middle of the year, and could impact their willingness to trade current players to help their roster mid-season.

It's a slap on the wrist that doesn't equate to how serious the breach was. And I have a real hard time believing only one individual knew about it.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/cardinals-deserved-far-worse-punishment-from-mlb-after-hacking-astros-013017