A forgettable last minute of regulation....damn

[77ncaachamps]

Yeah, Nerd, it was bad breaks...

--the bad break of not fouling ND before letting them get off a couple 3 pt attempts
--the bad break of not having DJO try to miss that second FT'
--the bad break of the brilliantly drawn up half court heave from Cubillan

But it was the dreaded Jim Burr who cost MU the game!

Notice the focus of your complaint is at the END of the game.
What about the other 44+ minutes?

If you play the whole game to lose in the last seconds, you deserve to lose.

[NersEllenson]

I guess I don't understand why we didn't foul up 3....

You can make a case for fouling sooner..but most coaches will only do that when the game is under 7 or 5 seconds.  When ND started that last possesion in regulation, there were 16 seconds left.  Given some of our late game Free Throw shooting adventures..not sure the wise thing to do is turn the game into a free throw shooting contest.  The difference when ND did it to us was we got the ball inbounded with 6 seconds left in the game.

[77ncaachamps]

Both teams shot really poorly.  Ugly, ugly game.  MU was under 18% from 3 point land.  We actually held ND to under 40% shooting for the game and lost.  Had less than 10 turnovers again.  A real head scratcher that we lost

Frustrating to say the least.  ARGGGGGHHHHH.  I hate losing to Notre Dame.  With UCONN's loss, I'd say ND has a legit shot to get into the tournament.

I'd say...we were UNABLE to draw fouls as we did in previous games. Butler had 6 FTAs. The next player? DJO with 4. Zar ONLY had 2 FTAs.

We can't win without drawing fouls: it means we are getting paint touches, getting to the bonus earlier, fouling out their players, getting the opposing team out of their rhythm.

[downtown85]

I think Buzz has to put the ball in DJOs hands at the end of the game.  I should be Butler, Hayward (if he hasn't fouled out) and DJO.  Letting Cubes heave 3s is not necessarily the best thing.

[gumbyandpokey]

Notice the focus of your complaint is at the END of the game.
What about the other 44+ minutes?

If you play the whole game to lose in the last seconds, you deserve to lose.

I've said before that Buzz usually comes up with solid gameplans.  But he's brutal at the end of close games.

[NersEllenson]

Yeah, Nerd, it was bad breaks...

--the bad break of not fouling ND before letting them get off a couple 3 pt attempts
--the bad break of not having DJO try to miss that second FT'
--the bad break of the brilliantly drawn up half court heave from Cubillan

But it was the dreaded Jim Burr who cost MU the game!

Surprise, surprise..look who is all over this LOSS!!  You Gumby??  I dont' believe it.  See my other post about not fouling a team when ahead by 3 with 16 seconds left.  Bottom line is ND had a lot of luck on its side today..for as many balls that bounced our way against Louisville..just as many bounced in ND's favor today.  Yes, the "Burr-kick" and subsequent technical were relevant.  But so too was Zar missing the free throw down the stretch.  He makes it, we win the game...Period..but like all of us..Zar isn't perfect..and you can say Buzz Williams isn't either if you want to...but I'll gladly take the results his coaching have gotten us this season.  Lastly, if you have such an issue with Buzz's coaching..why don't you just be a Badger fan where you can watch the infalliable Bo Ryan do his thing?  Wait a minute..you already are a Badger fan..have your fun now..cause you can book this:  MU will be 7-3 or 8-2 against UW in the next 10 years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I love your optimism, but no way MU is 7-3 or 8-2 against UW-Madison in the next 10 years.

People are frustrated today because we really coughed this one up, at home, against a bitter rival. 

[77ncaachamps]

Marquette from the FT line before today's 12-14 performance:

W 18-22 v Louisville
W 19-25 v Seton Hall
W 16-21 v St. John's
W 16-17 v Cincy
L  4-9    v Pitt
W 13-20 v South Florida
W 11-15 v Providence

Other than the asterisks (Cincy and Prov), if we get about 20 FTAs, our chances of winning is heightened.
Think how important it was for us to get those FTAs in order to win the OT games.

[NersEllenson]

I love your optimism, but no way MU is 7-3 or 8-2 against UW-Madison in the next 10 years.

People are frustrated today because we really coughed this one up, at home, against a bitter rival. 

Thanks..but why do you think we won't be 7-3 or 8-2 against Wisconsin?  It absolutely is frustrating that we lost today for sure..but again..there is a ton of knee jerk reaction going on here..it's almost embarrassing in some ways.  Tough breaks went against us today.  Tough loss.  ND was extremely desperate to get this win, extremely..we obviously wanted to get it for Senior Day, and competitive reasons of course..but ND is playing for its NCAA life...and that does count for something - ask Pitt, Georgetown, and UCONN.

[skianth16]

We definitely stopped trying to win at the end of regulation and started to just try to hang on. Really disappointing

[GGGG]

Surprise, surprise..look who is all over this LOSS!!  You Gumby??  I dont' believe it.  See my other post about not fouling a team when ahead by 3 with 16 seconds left.  Bottom line is ND had a lot of luck on its side today..for as many balls that bounced our way against Louisville..just as many bounced in ND's favor today.  Yes, the "Burr-kick" and subsequent technical were relevant.  But so too was Zar missing the free throw down the stretch.  He makes it, we win the game...Period..but like all of us..Zar isn't perfect..and you can say Buzz Williams isn't either if you want to...but I'll gladly take the results his coaching have gotten us this season.  Lastly, if you have such an issue with Buzz's coaching..why don't you just be a Badger fan where you can watch the infalliable Bo Ryan do his thing?  Wait a minute..you already are a Badger fan..have your fun now..cause you can book this:  MU will be 7-3 or 8-2 against UW in the next 10 years.

Why do you make it your personal crusade to defend Buzz in every post?

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

even though we choke a bunch from the line with as many guards as we have, we are one of the better foul shooting teams in the nation......

YOU FOUL UP THREE PERIOD when theres less than a posession left...... less risk involved there than letting a wide open three drop as three previous overtimes have told us.... luckily we squeaked those out.

[bartmiller#1]

I've said before that Buzz usually comes up with solid gameplans.  But he's brutal at the end of close games.

Didn't we just win 3 straight OT games on the road?

Was MU brutal at the end of those games?

[NersEllenson]

Why do you make it your personal crusade to defend Buzz in every post?

Because I'm pretty freakin' pleased with this teams results this season, as well as on the recruiting trail...and when I read some of the knee jerk posts that show up on this board after losses - it is pathetic and makes me embarrased to be an MU alum.  Are we really that short-sighted, that we can't see the big picture..and as tough as some of these losses have been...celebrate and enjoy all this "rebuilding" season?  Which, by the way, will end in an NCAA tourney bid. Furthermore, second-guessing is really just a big waste of time..would of, could of, should of.  There are 100's of factors that go into a game's outcome, and to nitpick the individual game results of a team that's coach helped guide them to an 11-7 Big East record, and 5th place finish, when projected to finish 12th....is pathetic.  Buzz may not be 100% perfect..but to expect that of anyone is ignorant, and yet for a bunch of armchair fans..many of whom probably never played basketball at the High School level..to 2nd guess this guy???  Embarrassing.

[GGGG]

Because I'm pretty freakin' pleased with this teams results this season, as well as on the recruiting trail...and when I read some of the knee jerk posts that show up on this board after losses - it is pathetic and makes me embarrased to be an MU alum.  Are we really that short-sighted, that we can't see the big picture..and as tough as some of these losses have been...celebrate and enjoy all this "rebuilding" season?  Which, by the way, will end in an NCAA tourney bid. Furthermore, second-guessing is really just a big waste of time..would of, could of, should of.  There are 100's of factors that go into a game's outcome, and to nitpick the individual game results of a team that's coach helped guide them to an 11-7 Big East record, and 5th place finish, when projected to finish 12th....is pathetic.  Buzz may not be 100% perfect..but to expect that of anyone is ignorant, and yet for a bunch of armchair fans..many of whom probably never played basketball at the High School level..to 2nd guess this guy???  Embarrassing.

But you said it yourself...Buzz isn't 100% perfect.  So when people are criticizing strategy (such as not fouling when you are down three), that doesn't mean that want to dump Buzz.

[NersEllenson]

But you said it yourself...Buzz isn't 100% perfect.  So when people are criticizing strategy (such as not fouling when you are down three), that doesn't mean that want to dump Buzz.

That's a good point.  That said, on the balance, I think Buzz deserves the benefit of the doubt.  I will agree that the issue of not fouling before the 3 gets taken, is a stategy that needs to get revisited.  That said, I believe this topic has been debated before and at best its a 65-35 vote in favor of fouling...

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

i cant remember all of them.... but would any of these overtime wins we had in the last few weeks even have needed to go into overtime if we had simply fouled, from what i remember we were up in regulation in all of these games , maybe all but one???

correct me if i am wrong.  im sorry

but the failure to foul when up three is my biggest peve of the year.....  i can take a loss due to missed free throws but it just seems like a failure of logic to not foul.

[NersEllenson]

i cant remember all of them.... but would any of these overtime wins we had in the last few weeks even have needed to go into overtime if we had simply fouled, from what i remember we were up in regulation in all of these games , maybe all but one???

correct me if i am wrong.  im sorry

but the failure to foul when up three is my biggest peve of the year.....  i can take a loss due to missed free throws but it just seems like a failure of logic to not foul.

Definitely wasn't the case in the Cincy game..we were behind and lucky to get it to OT.  Also think we had the ball for end of game shots against both St. Johns and Seton Hall...I don't recall either St. Johns or Seton Hall hitting a 3 to tie the game..to ultimately send it into overtime..think they were down 2 points and tied..

[Doctor V]

Because I'm pretty freakin' pleased with this teams results this season, as well as on the recruiting trail...and when I read some of the knee jerk posts that show up on this board after losses - it is pathetic and makes me embarrased to be an MU alum.  Are we really that short-sighted, that we can't see the big picture..and as tough as some of these losses have been...celebrate and enjoy all this "rebuilding" season?  Which, by the way, will end in an NCAA tourney bid. Furthermore, second-guessing is really just a big waste of time..would of, could of, should of.  There are 100's of factors that go into a game's outcome, and to nitpick the individual game results of a team that's coach helped guide them to an 11-7 Big East record, and 5th place finish, when projected to finish 12th....is pathetic.  Buzz may not be 100% perfect..but to expect that of anyone is ignorant, and yet for a bunch of armchair fans..many of whom probably never played basketball at the High School level..to 2nd guess this guy???  Embarrassing.

Ners, a coach can be a good, overachieving head coach and still make major mistakes and cost his team games. Buzz is a good recruiter, proved to be a good coach this season, but has some flaws that have cost Marquette games. Bottom line is that MU was up 7 with a minute left, then up 3 with 15 secs and multiple opportunities to foul and not allow an open 3.

Whether some like to admit it or not, Buzz coaches to not lose games that are tight rather than to win them. Also, his second major coaching flaw IMO is that he does not get the most he can out of his lesser quality players in the rotation- we saw it last year with cubillian, acker until DJ ot hurt, fulce, and butler until later in the season. He says he wants a solid 10 man rotation, but I havent seen anything close to that yet, maybe next year...

He is a young coach and is allowed to make mistakes, especially when the team overachieves, but to defend his mistakes at all cost is unnecessary

[NersEllenson]

Ners, a coach can be a good, overachieving head coach and still make major mistakes and cost his team games. Buzz is a good recruiter, proved to be a good coach this season, but has some flaws that have cost Marquette games. Bottom line is that MU was up 7 with a minute left, then up 3 with 15 secs and multiple opportunities to foul and not allow an open 3.

Whether some like to admit it or not, Buzz coaches to not lose games that are tight rather than to win them. Also, his second major coaching flaw IMO is that he does not get the most he can out of his lesser quality players in the rotation- we saw it last year with cubillian, acker until DJ ot hurt, fulce, and butler until later in the season. He says he wants a solid 10 man rotation, but I havent seen anything close to that yet, maybe next year...

He is a young coach and is allowed to make mistakes, especially when the team overachieves, but to defend his mistakes at all cost is unnecessary

You know...think of the scenario when we decide to foul a team when ahead by 3...and that teams goes to the line and makes both shots.  We lead by 1.  We get fouled, go to the line and miss both..other team comes down and hits a 2 and we lose..think a coach would be getting second guessed in that scenario?  Think this board would react differently?  Lets get real..the fact this team has been in as many close games as it has is a testament to good coaching..given the talent/size eficiency.  Let's also realize that we have only given up game tying 3's to West Virginia and now Notre Dame.  We got beat by Nova 2x on 2 point shots, Florida State on a 2 point shot, DePaul on a 2 point shot...and you know what..the PLAYERS missed multiple end game free thros in each of these losses.  the players execute..and we aren't having this conversation..they were in a position to win ALL of the games I mention..but failed to hit critical free throws.  As a player..that's all I can ask..we've been coached well enough to put us in a position to win the game or close it out...

[Big Papi]

I got to caught up in the game and I can't remember the last ND possession but when were we actually suppossed to foul in that position.  Fouling someone intentionally is not the easiest thing to do.  Foul too early in the clock and you risk having one of your own players choke away a game at the line and potentially lose in regulation.  Foul too late and you risk 3 free throws or worse like the St. John's game, 3 point play plus a free throw.  Man I don't know but I would never put a ref in a position to determine a game.  The time to foul was probably a half second before that 3 point attempt in the corner.  Thing is, DJO did foul on that play and it could have been a 4 point play and a loss.  Cooby should have never left his man on the perimeter.  Can't blame Buzz for that.

[Doctor V]

You know...think of the scenario when we decide to foul a team when ahead by 3...and that teams goes to the line and makes both shots.  We lead by 1.  We get fouled, go to the line and miss both..other team comes down and hits a 2 and we lose..think a coach would be getting second guessed in that scenario?  Think this board would react differently?  Lets get real..the fact this team has been in as many close games as it has is a testament to good coaching..given the talent/size eficiency.  Let's also realize that we have only given up game tying 3's to West Virginia and now Notre Dame.  We got beat by Nova 2x on 2 point shots, Florida State on a 2 point shot, DePaul on a 2 point shot...and you know what..the PLAYERS missed multiple end game free thros in each of these losses.  the players execute..and we aren't having this conversation..they were in a position to win ALL of the games I mention..but failed to hit critical free throws.  As a player..that's all I can ask..we've been coached well enough to put us in a position to win the game or close it out...

Yes, it is on the players more than anything. However, as dennis green once said, "the players are who we thought they were" Dont forget, they have overachieved more than the coach, so they deserve alot of credit too.

In the end, what matters is that when those players get you up by 7 with a minute left, you have to figure out a way to get them to win the game. It happened last year too, and those guys were all NBA prospects with senior leadership.

Lets be honest: has MU (and Buzz) overachieved beyond anyones expectations? YES... Has Buzz's coaching in the last two minutes of the game been a major contributor in atleast 2 or 3 losses this season? YES. Has Buzz's development of players 7-10 on his roster and the use of those players been less than ideal and perhaps been a factor in some of these late losses? YES

PS: YES #1 definitely outnumbers #2 and 3 by a million. The guy is still a coaching "baby" and will hopefully learn on the job

[NersEllenson]

Yes, it is on the players more than anything. However, as dennis green once said, "the players are who we thought they were" Dont forget, they have overachieved more than the coach, so they deserve alot of credit too.

In the end, what matters is that when those players get you up by 7 with a minute left, you have to figure out a way to get them to win the game. It happened last year too, and those guys were all NBA prospects with senior leadership.

Lets be honest: has MU (and Buzz) overachieved beyond anyones expectations? YES... Has Buzz's coaching in the last two minutes of the game been a major contributor in atleast 2 or 3 losses this season? YES. Has Buzz's development of players 7-10 on his roster and the use of those players been less than ideal and perhaps been a factor in some of these late losses? YES
PS: YES #1 definitely outnumbers #2 and 3 by a million. The guy is still a coaching "baby" and will hopefully learn on the job

I disagree with the part I put in red..because in this season..who are the 8, 9 and 10 guys?  Forzena, an injured Mbao, and Junior and Erik Williams?  Williams has Fulce in front of him, and Fulce has shown to be the best alternative to either Lazar or Jimmy.  Junior, we all know the story.  I also disagree that Buzz didn't utilize his bench well last year..who did he have after James went down?  Acker played well last year, just as he has this year.  Cooyb?  Coming off of 2 shoulder surgeries..and did you really want him out there instead of one of the Big 3?  Jimmy Butler developed nicely last year and gave the team a contribution, just as Joe Fulce has done this year.  I think we are really nit-picking at this point regardin gBuzz's coaching..and..there is nothing a coach can do when his team is ahead late in games, and can't close it out due to missing free throws.  Furthermore, how do you think this board would react if Buzz employed the foul strategy, and got burned on it?

[Big Papi]

Too many second chance points for ND and us being frigid from the perimeter ultimately cost us the game more than anything Buzz did or didn't do the last 20 seconds of the game.  

I think Buzz is in a little bit of a pickle when it comes to end of game situations when we are in the lead.  Your opponent was to lengthen the game.  We want to shorten the game.  The problem with taking the clock down is that it stalls our offense to the point that we force a shot up.  Our offense works best when it is attacking the paint and then either finishing or making a kick out that leads to the extra pass and the open shot.  Unfortunately today even if we attacked on the offensive end at the end of the game we still were not going to make a shot.  Just that kind of a day.  

[pillardean]

I've said before that Buzz usually comes up with solid gameplans.  But he's brutal at the end of close games.

Straight up dumb comment.

Look at the end of the game.  You say foul, I say no.  It was too much time when they got the ball and once Abromitas was in the corner no fouling there.  You're an idiot who has no concept of basketball and how it is to be played.  Perhaps Buzz isn't perfect but he did not lose the game.  You're a fool and needs to complain.  Let's get on with the BE Tourney. 

Great job this year seniors.