MLB 2017 Season

[wadesworld]

Aren't you pretty much doing the same thing that Lackey is doing?

Yeah.  The difference is I couldn't care less that MLB players take PEDs.  Sorry, but show me a baseball team that doesn't have PED users at some point in their life on it and I'll show you a little league baseball team.

Not to mention, I'm not sitting in the same clubhouse as multiple guys who hit the exact same kind of home runs that he's throwing shade at other players for.

[DegenerateDish]

Wasn't there an issue with Pippen's contract coming due too?  He had signed a long-term contract that made him one of the highest paid players in basketball, but by the end of that contract he was severely underpaid.  (Bulls couldn't renegotiate due to CBA.)  It didn't seem like it was any single factor, but a combination of factors that came together at once.

Reinsdorf famously told Pippen to not sign that contract (knowing long term it wasn't in Pippen's best interest).

[GGGG]

Yeah.  The difference is I couldn't care less that MLB players take PEDs.  Sorry, but show me a baseball team that doesn't have PED users at some point in their life on it and I'll show you a little league baseball team.

Not to mention, I'm not sitting in the same clubhouse as multiple guys who hit the exact same kind of home runs that he's throwing shade at other players for.

LOL...OK wades...

[Pakuni]

Wasn't there an issue with Pippen's contract coming due too?  He had signed a long-term contract that made him one of the highest paid players in basketball, but by the end of that contract he was severely underpaid.  (Bulls couldn't renegotiate due to CBA.)  It didn't seem like it was any single factor, but a combination of factors that came together at once.

Yeah, Pippen was a free agent. In spite of all his bashing of Krause and Reinsdorf, they rewarded him with a sign-and-trade that paid him far better than he would have received on the open market.

Interestingly enough, Krause reportedly had a deal the previous offseason to trade Pippen to Boston for both their '97 lottery picks (#3 and 6), but Reinsdorf killed the deal to make another title run with Jordan-Pippen-Jackson. Boston didn't do great with those picks (Billups and Mercer), but Krause apparently loved McGrady and would have used a pick on him.
Looking back, that was a really crappy draft outside of Duncan and McGrady.

[buckchuckler]

No doubt.  Brewers should send all of their minor leaguers over to Japan for a couple years, PED it up, and come back ready to kick ass.

Ummm, Korea is not Japan.

...

[wadesworld]

Ummm, Korea is not Japan.

This thread has gotten great.  The most recent themes seem to be: "The Jewish owner is cheap and all Asians are the same."  Nice work scoop.

Even better.  Send them to Korea for 2 years.

[buckchuckler]

Yeah.  The difference is I couldn't care less that MLB players take PEDs.  Sorry, but show me a baseball team that doesn't have PED users at some point in their life on it and I'll show you a little league baseball team.

Not to mention, I'm not sitting in the same clubhouse as multiple guys who hit the exact same kind of home runs that he's throwing shade at other players for.

Really?  For someone who doesn't care, you sure throw accusations around pretty regularly and try to diminish the accomplishments of those you are accusing.

[wadesworld]

Really?  For someone who doesn't care, you sure throw accusations around pretty regularly and try to diminish the accomplishments of those you are accusing.

I'm not trying to diminish any accomplishments at all.  I've said it everywhere that I wish the Brewers, Bucks, Packers, etc. would get all of their players on PEDs.  There's no coincidence that the best players in the history of sports are the ones who have used PEDs.

Name a Wisconsin athlete who you think is on PEDs.  Chances are I'll probably agree with you, and with the exception of Braun (because he's an idiot and tried to claim he didn't use them and the only reason his test failed was because it was tampered with rather than just accept the consequences) I probably cheer for them.  Couldn't care less.  MLB players have such a gigantic uphill battle if they haven't used PEDs to get to where they are because everyone else does.

[Pakuni]

I'm not trying to diminish any accomplishments at all.  I've said it everywhere that I wish the Brewers, Bucks, Packers, etc. would get all of their players on PEDs.  There's no coincidence that the best players in the history of sports are the ones who have used PEDs.

Gretzky, Messi, Pele, Orr, Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Jordan, Jim Brown, Sanders ... big-time juicers.

Name a Wisconsin athlete who you think is on PEDs.

Definitely Mason Crosby.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Gretzky, Messi, Pele, Orr, Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Jordan, Jim Brown, Sanders ... big-time juicers.

Definitely Mason Crosby.

When Mays was on the Mets, he was spotted with a bottle of liquid amphetamine in his locker.  Many players during his era were taking "Greenies."

[wadesworld]

When Mays was on the Mets, he was spotted with a bottle of liquid amphetamine in his locker.  Many players during his era were taking "Greenies."

Yup.  It's been happening throughout the history of baseball.  Dee Gordon being caught was the last straw for me.  I'm not saying every single player who has ever played professional baseball has used some sort of illegal substance, but I will no longer ever be surprised by any athlete getting caught using PEDs.  The guy is smaller than me, and that's saying something.

[MU82]

Cite?

After Reinsdorf signed him, Jordan said Reinsdorf told him: "Somewhere down the road, I know I'm going to regret this."

Reinsdorf tried to save face by saying, "I said I might live to regret it."

https://books.google.com/books?id=leziAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT501&lpg=PT501&dq=reinsdorf+jordan+i%27m+going+to+live+to+regret+this&source=bl&ots=TqA1KB7god&sig=lXDEhjEJhJvMeOEdSCqAXqkXIds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi50c6b57TTAhUMw4MKHZJjBKQQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=reinsdorf%20jordan%20i'm%20going%20to%20live%20to%20regret%20this&f=false

Well, I mean, Reinsdorf was worth well over nine figures before he even bought to Bulls, but it is true that Jordan's presence on the Bulls made him even richer.

Good point. Jordan made everybody richer.

True story ... Portland would have taken Barkley ahead of Jordan.

Fair enough. They were stupid x2. My point simply was that Jordan fell into the Bulls' laps. Which he did.

No, no, no.
The NBA didn't even have a luxury tax until 2001, two years after Jordan's second retirement.
Also, Phil Jackson broke up the Bulls when he decided to leave the team, knowing that Jordan had repeatedly said publicly that he'd quit if Phil quit. Reinsdorf had offered both substantial raises to stay on for another year. They elected not to.

Great catch re the luxury tax. I wasn't trying to "get away with one." I simply misremembered.

As for Phil "breaking up the Bulls," this is revisionist history. Reinsdorf DID want to keep Phil (and of course Michael), but Krause wanted Jackson gone and tried to talk Reinsdorf out of resigning him for 1997-98. Jackson agreed to come back, and Krause spent most of media day (before the first practice of the season) talking almost gleefully about this being Jackson's final season.

Jordan infamously said he wouldn't play for any coach other than Jackson, but Jordan said a lot of things - including that he was retiring after the first threepeat, that he was retiring after the second threepeat, that he would never play in any home arena other than Chicago Stadium, that he would never play for a pro team other than the Bulls, that he would never wear #23 again after his dad was murdered, etc, etc.

Anyway, Jordan privately had told people that he would have continued playing had Paxson been hired as Phil's replacement. Paxson, who had been one of Michael's favorite teammates, had been an assistant coach and broadcaster and back then was seen as future head-coaching material. Jordan even floated out there that he would have continued had Cartwright been hired as Jackson's replacement. One thing he definitely would not do was play for Krause's fishing buddy.

Reinsdorf surely would have kept Jordan, regardless of cost, and probably Jackson, too. But he had commented several times about not wanting the Bulls to end up like the aging Bird-McHale Celtics, and he definitely wasn't keen on paying Pippen and the rest.

In my view, the dynasty could have continued another year or two. Maybe even three. It's tough to win one championship; a team should never look down on the chance to win one.

The Hungarian Jordan!

Nobody will ever forget him! Wait ... who were we talking about?

[BM1090]

Decent thread about Thames

https://twitter.com/sung_minkim/status/856327959715631104

[Vander Blue Man Group]

And Jake Arrieta just went from someone who could stay in the MLB to the best pitcher of baseball in 1 year as a 28 year old because of a new pitching coach...

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Arrieta was a top 100 prospect for the Orioles so it wasn't like he completely came out of nowhere. He changed where he stood on the mound and threw significantly more strikes.

He pitched his last game for Baltimore on June 17 and he had a 7.23 ERA with 17 BB in 23.2 IP (6.5 BB/9) thru 5 starts.

His first Cubs start came on July 30. For the remainder of that season (9 GS), he had a 3.66 ERA with 24 BB in 51.2 IP (4.2 BB/9). In other words, his improvement was almost immediate upon joining the Cubs. Are you arguing that his pitching coach had nothing to do with this? Did he juice up for 6 weeks while in AAA?

He's had this ridiculous point of view for a long time.  He won't change his mind regardless of how much information is presented to the contrary.   

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

He's had this ridiculous point of view for a long time.  He won't change his mind regardless of how much information is presented to the contrary.

Regardless to the point of view, he said he doesn't care about players using PEDs so I think we can agree it is no longer a relevant point of conversation! Glad the matter is put the rest!

[wadesworld]

Regardless to the point of view, he said he doesn't care about players using PEDs so I think we can agree it is no longer a relevant point of conversation! Glad the matter is put the rest!

Why wouldn't it be a "relevant point of conversation?"

I just think it's funny that Chicago sports fans can't fathom that one of their own could possibly be using PEDs but they're more than happy to point to Clay Matthews or Thames or any other athlete out there and claim they use them.

To me?  Yup, there's very little doubt in my mind that Thames and Clay have used some sort of PED in their lives.  So has Jake Arrieta.  So did Sammy Sosa.  It's really not that big of a deal.  But some people get all upset.  "WHAT?!  Hot takes!  No way in heck did this jacked up monster of a human being who was pretty terrible at pitching a baseball until he hit the young, developing age of 28 years old, when he suddenly became the best pitcher on the face of the Earth take PEDs!"

[Pakuni]

He's had this ridiculous point of view for a long time.  He won't change his mind regardless of how much information is presented to the contrary.

Crazy thought, but stick with me for a moment here ... maybe there's more than one factor involved in Arrieta's unusual ascent to the pitching elite.
Here's another thought ... barring a failed drug test or a tell-all autobiography, none of us will ever know whether Arrieta juiced or not, so you're wasting a lot of time and energy debating this for the past 2+ years.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Why wouldn't it be a "relevant point of conversation?"

I just think it's funny that Chicago sports fans can't fathom that one of their own could possibly be using PEDs but they're more than happy to point to Clay Matthews or Thames or any other athlete out there and claim they use them.

To me?  Yup, there's very little doubt in my mind that Thames and Clay have used some sort of PED in their lives.  So has Jake Arrieta.  So did Sammy Sosa.  It's really not that big of a deal.  But some people get all upset.  "WHAT?!  Hot takes!  No way in heck did this jacked up monster of a human being who was pretty terrible at pitching a baseball until he hit the young, developing age of 28 years old, when he suddenly became the best pitcher on the face of the Earth take PEDs!"

So you care about fandom hypocrisy, not PEDs. Restating the Arrieta example over and over won't change anything about a holier than thou attitude unfortunately (not accusing anyone on this board having it). It happens with every fan base who is experiencing success.

Similarly, as a White Sox fan, I find myself trying to cherry pick reasons to hate on an organization that I deeply respect as a baseball fan but simultaneously despise which at the end of the day is not worth the time or the effort. (Digging up pictures of friends in sox gear in high school vs cubs gear when they won this year was entertaining enough though). 

As far as PEDs go, (and whose company is rumored to have manufactured the goods Lance used), players only get caught when they are careless as doping technology will always outstrip testing technology.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Why wouldn't it be a "relevant point of conversation?"

I just think it's funny that Chicago sports fans can't fathom that one of their own could possibly be using PEDs but they're more than happy to point to Clay Matthews or Thames or any other athlete out there and claim they use them.

To me?  Yup, there's very little doubt in my mind that Thames and Clay have used some sort of PED in their lives.  So has Jake Arrieta.  So did Sammy Sosa.  It's really not that big of a deal.  But some people get all upset.  "WHAT?!  Hot takes!  No way in heck did this jacked up monster of a human being who was pretty terrible at pitching a baseball until he hit the young, developing age of 28 years old, when he suddenly became the best pitcher on the face of the Earth take PEDs!"

Of course Sosa used PEDs.  I have no issue at all believing a Chicago athlete could use PEDs. 

As far as Arrieta, after learning about his entire history with Baltimore, what his transpired since coming to Chicago and his work with Bosio, and his dedication to training, I would be extremely surprised if he wasn't clean.

There's not much worse than someone who sets their mind on something and won't accept other possibilities no matter how much information they are presented with.   

Crazy thought, but stick with me for a moment here ... maybe there's more than one factor involved in Arrieta's unusual ascent to the pitching elite.
Here's another thought ... barring a failed drug test or a tell-all autobiography, none of us will ever know whether Arrieta juiced or not, so you're wasting a lot of time and energy debating this for the past 2+ years.

Sure, no one except Arrieta will ever know 100%.  Anything is possibility.  But I have no reason to believe he is anything but clean and that has nothing to do with being blinded because I'm a Cubs fan. 

[wadesworld]

So you care about fandom hypocrisy, not PEDs. Restating the Arrieta example over and over won't change anything about a holier than thou attitude unfortunately (not accusing anyone on this board having it). It happens with every fan base who is experiencing success.

Similarly, as a White Sox fan, I find myself trying to cherry pick reasons to hate on an organization that I deeply respect as a baseball fan but simultaneously despise which at the end of the day is not worth the time or the effort. (Digging up pictures of friends in sox gear in high school vs cubs gear when they won this year was entertaining enough though). 

As far as PEDs go, (and whose company is rumored to have manufactured the goods Lance used), players only get caught when they are careless as doping technology will always outstrip testing technology.

A very good post.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

So you care about fandom hypocrisy, not PEDs. Restating the Arrieta example over and over won't change anything about a holier than thou attitude unfortunately (not accusing anyone on this board having it). It happens with every fan base who is experiencing success.

Similarly, as a White Sox fan, I find myself trying to cherry pick reasons to hate on an organization that I deeply respect as a baseball fan but simultaneously despise which at the end of the day is not worth the time or the effort. (Digging up pictures of friends in sox gear in high school vs cubs gear when they won this year was entertaining enough though). 

As far as PEDs go, (and whose company is rumored to have manufactured the goods Lance used), players only get caught when they are careless as doping technology will always outstrip testing technology.

So if I disagree about Arrieta based on all of the information available that's fandom hypocrisy?  That's quite different than a fan blindly supporting a player simply because he wears that particular team's uniform.   

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

So if I disagree about Arrieta based on all of the information available that's fandom hypocrisy?  That's quite different than a fan blindly supporting a player simply because he wears that particular team's uniform.   

It is what he perceives it as, just as he has been guilty of that regarding crapping on Jay Cutler time and time again. If you watch sports, it is inevitable. I believe that you have a well developed statistically sound opinion on the matter, just as he has relevant points. I guess I was trying to point out that there's no point in throwing stones at a mountain and expecting it to do anything. It is a debate in which no one will convince another otherwise.

TLDR -

[wadesworld]

It is what he perceives it as, just as he has been guilty of that regarding crapping on Jay Cutler time and time again. If you watch sports, it is inevitable. I believe that you have a well developed statistically sound opinion on the matter, just as he has relevant points. I guess I was trying to point out that there's no point in throwing stones at a mountain and expecting it to do anything. It is a debate in which no one will convince another otherwise.

TLDR -

Well, I mean, the fact that Jay Cutler continues to be unemployed kind of proves what I have been saying about Jay Cutler all along.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Well, I mean, the fact that Jay Cutler continues to be unemployed kind of proves what I have been saying about Jay Cutler all along.

Agree to disagree GB fan!  . Apologies for bringing up football in a baseball thread.