MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: DegenerateDish on September 17, 2018, 06:03:32 PM
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Last Friday, I bought a new Honda Accord Hybrid at Honda of Kenosha. I'd been waiting a while to find a deal that I liked, was hoping for some good year end incentives, and in shopping around the Midwest, the Kenosha dealer had a very good cost.
I'm used to the car buying negotiating game, and gave hard no's to them trying to bundle in an extended warranty, paint protection, security system. I was steadfast in only agreeing to the lowball price for the vehicle itself that they offered me via email.
They ended up agreeing to the price without any of the extra crap, and they had agreed to 2.9% over 60 months for financing. Which I thought was funny, because Honda wasn't offering anything better than 4.9% on the Hybrid model.
I had secured third party financing before going to the dealer. I'm in the 800's for my credit score, and secured 2.24% through a credit union. My plan was to most likely to take whatever financing the dealer gave me, make one payment, and then re-fi through the credit union.
I have a signed contract for 2.9% at 60 months on the vehicle, and walked out with the new car on Friday. This afternoon, I got a call from the dealer saying there was a mistake, and they need me to come back into the dealership because the finance rate was incorrect. It should have been 3.2% instead.
I don't know much about this, but am assuming this is considered a Spot Delivery? The contract went into agreement at 4:30 pm that Friday, and as mentioned I have great credit, so I wasn't a risk. I "believe" in Wisconsin, dealers who spot a vehicle and can't secure financing are required by state law to finance the purchase themselves (?).
I didn't know who else to ask on this, and there's a lot of good/smart people on this board, so any recommendations? I want to tell them to get bent, but want to know legally what's right here. Thanks in advance.
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Dish - I picked up my hybrid touring a month ago. Love it. Outside of the legal contract stuff, any questions you might have, I could probably answer - tech, driving, MPG, etc
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I believe that once you signed the contract, they have to honor whatever they put into it. My advice would be to tell them to pound sand if there's any actual legal things you'll hear from a lawyer and can then continue without repercussions
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Last Friday, I bought a new Honda Accord Hybrid at Honda of Kenosha. I'd been waiting a while to find a deal that I liked, was hoping for some good year end incentives, and in shopping around the Midwest, the Kenosha dealer had a very good cost.
I'm used to the car buying negotiating game, and gave hard no's to them trying to bundle in an extended warranty, paint protection, security system. I was steadfast in only agreeing to the lowball price for the vehicle itself that they offered me via email.
They ended up agreeing to the price without any of the extra crap, and they had agreed to 2.9% over 60 months for financing. Which I thought was funny, because Honda wasn't offering anything better than 4.9% on the Hybrid model.
I had secured third party financing before going to the dealer. I'm in the 800's for my credit score, and secured 2.24% through a credit union. My plan was to most likely to take whatever financing the dealer gave me, make one payment, and then re-fi through the credit union.
I have a signed contract for 2.9% at 60 months on the vehicle, and walked out with the new car on Friday. This afternoon, I got a call from the dealer saying there was a mistake, and they need me to come back into the dealership because the finance rate was incorrect. It should have been 3.2% instead.
I don't know much about this, but am assuming this is considered a Spot Delivery? The contract went into agreement at 4:30 pm that Friday, and as mentioned I have great credit, so I wasn't a risk. I "believe" in Wisconsin, dealers who spot a vehicle and can't secure financing are required by state law to finance the purchase themselves (?).
I didn't know who else to ask on this, and there's a lot of good/smart people on this board, so any recommendations? I want to tell them to get bent, but want to know legally what's right here. Thanks in advance.
Def not a lawyer, but have bought plenty of cars over the years, and I would play hardball. This sounds like a pretty large dealership, and this type of mistake which I guess theoretically could happen, seems a bit fishy.
I would do the math on what that .3% interest would cost you over the life of the loan, and ask for that to be taken off the purchase price. (On a $28,000 car, the difference is about $250 or $4/month over a 60 month loan term).
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Can't help with the legal stuff .. just reminds me of when I bought my car, I had the opposite story. About a week after I got the car, a $600 check arrived in the mail. "Sorry, we screwed up the sales tax." .. Truth was, I don't think they did, but I'm not turning that down.
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Next time try the Costco car buying program. I use it every time. It is fantastic and gets you the lowest price.
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Dish, it’s called yo-yo financing. Dealers try it all the time. They offer you great terms just to get you to buy and drive it home. Then, after you drive it, show it to family and friends, they tell you that a mistake was made.
A dealer recently pulled that on my son. I told them, get our trade in back to us and we’ll drop the new car off at the lot. They are required to give you back 100% of your down payment, including any trade in. Push them on it. In my case, they knew I’m a lawyer and I’d take my kid’s case for free and cost them a bunch in attorney’s fees.
On the other hand, with the refi planned, if you can get it done quickly, do the refi before making a payment and don’t give them the satisfaction of getting any interest from you.
Good luck.
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What color?
(Just another scoop non-answer to a very specific question.)
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https://jalopnik.com/what-to-do-if-a-car-dealer-says-they-made-a-mistake-on-1795217709
Probably more here. http://lehtoslaw.com/
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Dish, it’s called yo-yo financing. Dealers try it all the time. They offer you great terms just to get you to buy and drive it home. Then, after you drive it, show it to family and friends, they tell you that a mistake was made.
A dealer recently pulled that on my son. I told them, get our trade in back to us and we’ll drop the new car off at the lot. They are required to give you back 100% of your down payment, including any trade in. Push them on it. In my case, they knew I’m a lawyer and I’d take my kid’s case for free and cost them a bunch in attorney’s fees.
On the other hand, with the refi planned, if you can get it done quickly, do the refi before making a payment and don’t give them the satisfaction of getting any interest from you.
Good luck.
Thanks for the feedback. From a legal perspective, can the dealership do this? I've read over the contract, it's your standard car contract, the APR and term is clearly listed.
I didn't have a trade in, I put down $6000 on it. Mostly what I'm wondering is if I just ignore them, they don't have any legal recourse to do anything, right?
The other part of this is that there are some add on's I want done to the car (it's my wife's car). As an example, I was going to get a heated steering wheel put in. Do I have pull to use that over the dealer to get that done for next to nothing, in exchange for this higher rate (knowing I'm just going to re-fi it)?
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Dish - I picked up my hybrid touring a month ago. Love it. Outside of the legal contract stuff, any questions you might have, I could probably answer - tech, driving, MPG, etc
Thanks, I got it for my wife, it's a Touring as well. Love it, great car, and the MPG is ridiculous.
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What color?
(Just another scoop non-answer to a very specific question.)
Silver.
(I like what you did there btw).
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I took business law sophomore year at Marquette. I don't remember anything, but I did buy a hybrid Accord last year. Love it.
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Thanks for the feedback. From a legal perspective, can the dealership do this? I've read over the contract, it's your standard car contract, the APR and term is clearly listed.
I didn't have a trade in, I put down $6000 on it. Mostly what I'm wondering is if I just ignore them, they don't have any legal recourse to do anything, right?
The other part of this is that there are some add on's I want done to the car (it's my wife's car). As an example, I was going to get a heated steering wheel put in. Do I have pull to use that over the dealer to get that done for next to nothing, in exchange for this higher rate (knowing I'm just going to re-fi it)?
Is there anything on your contract that uses any form of the words “conditional” “contingent” “provisional” preliminary” or similar terminology near the APR or other financing terms? If so, you’re going to lose most of your leverage.
Not knowing what Wisconsin statutes say about spot delivery, but first thing I would do is ask to see the denial letter from the financier (or whatever they can produce that shows you weren’t approved for the original rate).
Regardless, I would absolutely use it as leverage for a heated steering wheel. Even if the dealer is technically in the right, as unseemly and unethical as it may be, believe me when I say that dealers (new car dealers, at least) absolutely hate being put in this position... spot delivery helps them sell a lot of cars, but it can come at the expense of a horrible customer experience, and new car dealers rely more on word of mouth and referrals than most people think. If they feel like they can help you out and smooth the matter over in another manner, e.g. with a discounted or free add-on, the good dealers are going to jump at that opportunity. Just don’t tell them you plan to refi, otherwise you might lose what remaining leverage you have.
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Next time try the Costco car buying program. I use it every time. It is fantastic and gets you the lowest price.
Used it to buy my Volvo S90 T8 Hybrid. Amazing deal.
Dealer cost ("A Plan") base pricing; $3,000 Costco incentive/rebate on top of the $4,500 manu rebate
And then (non-Costco) $5,000 tax credit for a hybrid.
I ordered while the deal was still going and the dealer agreed to keep it in place even though it wasn't going to be delivered until after the deal expired.
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Glow and I had a horrible experience at Russ Darrow a couple of years back.
We were looking for a specific model of used car with low miles. Darrow had advertised what we wanted at a price that was so good (we had done our homework) we had already decided that we weren't going to kill ourselves haggling. Glow confirmed the price via email with the dealership.
We get there, test drive it, and tell them we are interested. The salesperson gives us his initial price quote - $2,000 over the advertised one. When we give him the WTF look, the salesman says, "That price assumes you had a $2,000 trade-in, and since you don't..." Glow showed him our written quote, and the salesperson tried to claim that the trade-in requirement was covered under "other charges apply" or some such B.S.
Glow told him that unless he wanted us to call the Attorney General on Monday morning, he had better honor the original price. They backed down, but as punishment, they made us cool our heels in the waiting area for several hours because the business manager was "busy". We sat next to a guy that they had pulled the same "trade-in" crap on, who admitted that he caved and was paying $1500 over the quoted price.
When we finally see the business manager, he hands us an extended warranty and asks us to check the box next to the one we wanted. When we said "none", he spent a lot of time trying to tell us what a dumb decision that would be before he finally gave up. The form didn't even have an option of declining an extended warranty; he had to write it in.
After all the paperwork was completed, we sat it the waiting room waiting for them to actually bring the car around. We finally had to ask someone, "Where is our freaking car?". You know how it's traditional to drive the car up, and make a big deal about opening the doors, helping you in, showing you some basic dashboard functions? They basically threw the keys at us. All in all, we spent six full hours at the dealership for a transaction that shouldn't have taken more than an hour and a half.
We had very pleasant experiences with the purchase of several cars before that (at other dealerships) so I guess we assumed that the old-school slimy dealerships were a thing of the past. Apparently not.
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I have bought my last five cars from the same dealer since the experience has been so good. I have no idea how businesses can’t figure out that good experiences give you repeat customers.
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Glow and I had a horrible experience at Russ Darrow a couple of years back.
We were looking for a specific model of used car with low miles. Darrow had advertised what we wanted at a price that was so good (we had done our homework) we had already decided that we weren't going to kill ourselves haggling. Glow confirmed the price via email with the dealership.
We get there, test drive it, and tell them we are interested. The salesperson gives us his initial price quote - $2,000 over the advertised one. When we give him the WTF look, the salesman says, "That price assumes you had a $2,000 trade-in, and since you don't..." Glow showed him our written quote, and the salesperson tried to claim that the trade-in requirement was covered under "other charges apply" or some such B.S.
Glow told him that unless he wanted us to call the Attorney General on Monday morning, he had better honor the original price. They backed down, but as punishment, they made us cool our heels in the waiting area for several hours because the business manager was "busy". We sat next to a guy that they had pulled the same "trade-in" crap on, who admitted that he caved and was paying $1500 over the quoted price.
When we finally see the business manager, he hands us an extended warranty and asks us to check the box next to the one we wanted. When we said "none", he spent a lot of time trying to tell us what a dumb decision that would be before he finally gave up. The form didn't even have an option of declining an extended warranty; he had to write it in.
After all the paperwork was completed, we sat it the waiting room waiting for them to actually bring the car around. We finally had to ask someone, "Where is our freaking car?". You know how it's traditional to drive the car up, and make a big deal about opening the doors, helping you in, showing you some basic dashboard functions? They basically threw the keys at us. All in all, we spent six full hours at the dealership for a transaction that shouldn't have taken more than an hour and a half.
We had very pleasant experiences with the purchase of several cars before that (at other dealerships) so I guess we assumed that the old-school slimy dealerships were a thing of the past. Apparently not.
You guys are smart, you really have to do your homework before you walk into a dealership. I had been patient in knowing what number I wanted from an email quote before I walked into a dealer.
In this transaction, they were offering a really low price compared to everyone else, at least $1000 less. Their email quote said it also included some type of paint protection and car security system in the price. I honestly didn't care about either of those things, but the quote said they were included, so I didn't care.
When I got to the dealer, and they came back with the offer, they had jacked up the price by $1000 to account for the paint protection and car security system. I immediately called them out on it, and said the email offer I had clearly stated both items were already included in the proposed price.
They then came back and said I had to take a 7 year/120k warranty, which again jacked up their original emailed price by $1000. I firmly said no, and told them I need an itemized list of car price/tax/title/licensce/doc fees to go over it line by line. They finally then agreed to the original emailed price without the other crap.
Of course anyone who's bought a car knows it's not over yet, and then the finance manager comes in to hard sell the warranty. I was up front and told the FM I work in service sales and my brother-in-law is a mechanic (both are true) and I have zero interest in any warranties. He still tried to hard sell like no one I've ever seen before.
All in all, the experience itself was slimy as hell, but I was determined to hold my ground on walking out with the price they originally offered.
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Dish, I don't know the laws in Wisconsin but in Illinois the dealer does have the right to rescind the contract predicated on COMPLETELY undoing the transaction. That means that they return ALL of your money and your trade-in upon your return of the car in a worst case scenario. They are not allowed to compel you to agree to the new terms or to withhold anything from you if you decide to cancel the transaction.
But let's look at the practicality of that over a minor change in the terms they could eat by not being able to secure the financing they thought they could get. Do they really want the nightmare? I'd hold firm and not agree to sign anything but definitely read the fine print of your existing paperwork. Again, I don't know WI law on this topic.
Have fun. I hate car dealers with a passion. They're ALL crooks in my book.
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To follow-up on what Chick said.
NEVER, EVER do business with RUSS DARROW. Ever.
Now I've told thousands of scoopers what a slime ball he is. And remember, I'm a lifelong banker. I know financial transactions and what's 'reasonable' in business. You win some and lose some in healthy negotiations. Those are some bad guys.
There. Hopefully the unreasonable pain they caused us has been paid back tenfold. >:(
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After all the paperwork was completed, we sat it the waiting room waiting for them to actually bring the car around. We finally had to ask someone, "Where is our freaking car?". You know how it's traditional to drive the car up, and make a big deal about opening the doors, helping you in, showing you some basic dashboard functions? They basically threw the keys at us. All in all, we spent six full hours at the dealership for a transaction that shouldn't have taken more than an hour and a half.
I'm not defending or advocating on behalf of car salesfolk here, but showing you around the car is really more of a "new" car thing. Car salesfolk typically haven't a clue about the functionality of used cars unless it's the same make as the dealer (e.g. buying a used Honda at the Honda dealer). That said, it is customary to not give the keys to the customer and direct them to where it's parked somewhere in the lot.
Unfortunately, the extended warranty sale is way too profitable for dealers, especially used car dealers (who mostly sell third-party warranties that exclude half of the things that could go wrong with a used vehicle), to see that go away. And the "stall and delay" tactic is way too overused, but it works... just like a casino, one of the golden rules of car sales is that the longer you keep the customer on the sales floor, the more profitable they become.
With the caveat that this works much better for new cars than used, as I posted in another thread buried in the Superbar somewhere, make the dealers work for your business... fax or email RFP's to as many dealers as you can and force them to respond in writing on your terms. Be very specific with what you're looking for, and always ask for the "out the door" price, which is understood to be all-inclusive of hidden charges, fees, etc. Half of the dealers you contact won't bother to respond... don't even think of trying them back, but the ones who do respond, those are the ones who want your business and are most likely to provide a pleasant buying experience. I took 3 or 4 offers into my local Subaru dealer for a new Outback (factory order) and told them I had 3 or 4 offers from other dealers, and guess what, without me disclosing the quotes I had in hand, the salesperson beat my best quote by a few hundred dollars.
Another little known secret about car dealers, new and used.... the "floor" sales team earns a commission based on price you pay, but "internet" sales team earns commission based on volume. Both teams usually have the same minimum price/markup that the dealer sets for the vehicle, so your chances of getting the best price - unless the floor salesperson is a friend or family member - almost always is going to be with the internet team. Even if you like dealing with someone in-person, check the price for the vehicle on the internet (like Glow did) before heading to the dealer and then look at the sticker on the vehicle... more likely than not, the sticker price is always going to be a couple thousand heavier than the internet price.
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Have fun. I hate car dealers with a passion. They're ALL crooks in my book.
I generally share this sentiment...but have occasionally come across an exception.
Years ago, we had just moved to Richmond and were buying a slightly used '89 Acura Legend from an independent used car dealer. We wanted to get an inspection and the nearest Acura dealer was about 20 miles away, so we took it down the road to Richmond Honda. They quoted us a competitive price for the inspection (it was in '93 so I can't recall the number). When we picked it up, they told us the car was in great condition...and then told us they'd only charge half the quoted inspection price because it was so clean. We bought the car and took it there for service until we moved out of Richmond. Always polite, prompt, and at (or under) the estimated cost.
As for Russ Darrow - yep, they suck. Had an awful experience trying to buy a Mazda at their Greenfield location years ago. They tried to screw me, so I just walked away. Never again.
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If amazon got in the car sales business, no negotiation, just a quote, a click, and you're done, they would end up selling 100% of the cars.
There's no reason for car dealerships to exist aside from antiquated laws put into place for bad reasons.
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If amazon got in the car sales business, no negotiation, just a quote, a click, and you're done, they would end up selling 100% of the cars.
There's no reason for car dealerships to exist aside from antiquated laws put into place for bad reasons.
Agreed. But that's a hell of a strong lobby. Good luck getting rid of those laws.
Costco auto is good. No haggle. Good deals. But it's not available at every dealership. You can often haggle for less than Costco price if you want to do the research and put in the time.
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You know how it's traditional to drive the car up, and make a big deal about opening the doors, helping you in, showing you some basic dashboard functions? They basically threw the keys at us. All in all, we spent six full hours at the dealership for a transaction that shouldn't have taken more than an hour and a half.
In my experience with sales people, when you’ve closed the deal and they’re pissed off, you did it right. Several years ago, after setting a trap for the sales person (cash for clunker trade-in) and getting a splendid deal, he handed me keys from clenched fists. He absolutely hated me. The b.s. waiting didn’t matter—I’d never felt more pleased and vindicated.
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Little known fact, car dealerships don't sell the vehicle unless they get their number.
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I'm still a believer in taking the signed purchase agreement to a competing dealer (new cars only of course). You need an easy out in the purchase agreement but even though I'm nearing 60 I still tell them I need my father's approval because he's paying for it (I wish!). Saved us close to $2000 over the signed agreement the last time.
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And just to follow up on my earlier comments. We were at a bit of a disadvantage. This was the ONE car within a 100 mile radius that fit our exact criterion. It's why we drove all the way to Milwaukee. So we did sort of have to 'take their crap' up to a certain point. Had we had attractive options, we absolutely would have walked.
Thanks goodness it's been a good car for us.
And I will add this just in case a particular guy is your relative or something. The Parts guy there was great. I ordered new floor mats from him as well as a second key fob (because originally we only had one). I learned that my local dealership was going to have to charge me a considerable amount to activate it. (I get it. Nothing is for free.) My next trip to MKE the Darrow Parts guy did that for nothing because "all cars come with two keys and we're sorry that yours didn't".
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Is there anything on your contract that uses any form of the words “conditional” “contingent” “provisional” preliminary” or similar terminology near the APR or other financing terms? If so, you’re going to lose most of your leverage.
This is where they try to claim they have you. Buried in the second or third page of the retail installment agreement you'll probably find language like this and they will claim that the sale wasn't truly final. But as mentioned, push back, threaten going to the attorney general, negative publicity to them, give the car back in exchange for a full refund, etc. and you'll probably be successful.
I'm still a believer in taking the signed purchase agreement to a competing dealer (new cars only of course). You need an easy out in the purchase agreement but even though I'm nearing 60 I still tell them I need my father's approval because he's paying for it (I wish!). Saved us close to $2000 over the signed agreement the last time.
My Dad used to send a fax to four local (within 30 miles) Honda dealers, telling them the exact model, color, options, etc. and for them to each fax him back their best out the door price. Lots of differences in each dealer's price.
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I'm not defending or advocating on behalf of car salesfolk here, but showing you around the car is really more of a "new" car thing. Car salesfolk typically haven't a clue about the functionality of used cars unless it's the same make as the dealer (e.g. buying a used Honda at the Honda dealer). That said, it is customary to not give the keys to the customer and direct them to where it's parked somewhere in the lot.
Unfortunately, the extended warranty sale is way too profitable for dealers, especially used car dealers (who mostly sell third-party warranties that exclude half of the things that could go wrong with a used vehicle), to see that go away. And the "stall and delay" tactic is way too overused, but it works... just like a casino, one of the golden rules of car sales is that the longer you keep the customer on the sales floor, the more profitable they become.
With the caveat that this works much better for new cars than used, as I posted in another thread buried in the Superbar somewhere, make the dealers work for your business... fax or email RFP's to as many dealers as you can and force them to respond in writing on your terms. Be very specific with what you're looking for, and always ask for the "out the door" price, which is understood to be all-inclusive of hidden charges, fees, etc. Half of the dealers you contact won't bother to respond... don't even think of trying them back, but the ones who do respond, those are the ones who want your business and are most likely to provide a pleasant buying experience. I took 3 or 4 offers into my local Subaru dealer for a new Outback (factory order) and told them I had 3 or 4 offers from other dealers, and guess what, without me disclosing the quotes I had in hand, the salesperson beat my best quote by a few hundred dollars.
Another little known secret about car dealers, new and used.... the "floor" sales team earns a commission based on price you pay, but "internet" sales team earns commission based on volume. Both teams usually have the same minimum price/markup that the dealer sets for the vehicle, so your chances of getting the best price - unless the floor salesperson is a friend or family member - almost always is going to be with the internet team. Even if you like dealing with someone in-person, check the price for the vehicle on the internet (like Glow did) before heading to the dealer and then look at the sticker on the vehicle... more likely than not, the sticker price is always going to be a couple thousand heavier than the internet price.
I used your email strategy for my last car purchase 2 years ago. I had a unique set of constraints as I am eligible for GM Family pricing since 1/2 of my wife's family all work for GM. Sent out my requests and heard back from about 2/3 of the dealers. Of those, 1/2 would only talk to me in person and wouldn't give me a price so I ruled them out. Ended up with one dealership who beat every price by $80/mo on a lease. Had one dealer quip "I have no idea how they're making any money". Either way, I will be using the technique again when get our next vehicle in a year. Worked great.
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I sell new Buick and GMC, with about 60% of our sales coming from pre-owned (trade-ins, lease returns, few rentals, etc).
I know many/most people dread coming into a car dealership; I often make the equation to customers that my Dad was a dentist, and "nobody wanted to see him at work, either." That said, I like to think, (and my CSI numbers back me up), the VAST majority of my customer have a pleasant experience.
I started selling cars when I was 36. I taught high school English for 15 years, the last five at a Catholic school in Elmhurst, IL (where we live, and my wife-who-I-met-at-Marquette was raised). We had our third kid and I couldn't afford working for Rome anymore, so I started selling at my wife's uncle's dealership (2 miles from my house).
There are no requirements for being a car salesman, so well over 50% of them are terrible, (say a dealership has a staff of 10 salesman.. 4 desks are perpetually "new guys," two guys are very, very old, two guys are average, and two are very good salesmen).
Being a good car salesman is not easy-- which means there are not many out there, but if you find on-- you can have a valuable relationship for a long, long time. I sell a lot of vehicles to people I know from the school and town and we'll always cut profit, and in turn, my commission, to gain continued referrals and service customers. I also sell a lot of "fresh ups" whom I've never met before who become very strong referrals and seem sincerely happy to see me when they are in for an oil change.
I work a ton, (drastically different hours than teaching), and am always available. Tuesdays are my day off, and I've texted two customers who have already purchased this morning. I have strong product knowledge, including pre-owned; (I have two Masters and spend all my time in cars, together we can figure out how to pair the phone in your Honda Odyssey).
I can answer questions about leasing vs. purchasing and new vs. Certified. I can help you decide whether or not you need a third row or AWD and make you realize that color doesn't really matter. I'll give you a fair deal and can hold a conversation about your vacation to New Buffalo while we're waiting for the F & I guy. I'm above-average at getting people to pay the most they will/ for my product/ while making them happy because I'm an above-average salesman.
I understand people don't like the car buying process, but I think most of that falls on the bad salesman and/or bad business manager you had. I rarely have to "go to the tower" to ask a question because I know what I'm doing. My goal is repeat customers, so I'm not hiding once you drive off the lot.
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I sell new Buick and GMC, with about 60% of our sales coming from pre-owned (trade-ins, lease returns, few rentals, etc).
I know many/most people dread coming into a car dealership; I often make the equation to customers that my Dad was a dentist, and "nobody wanted to see him at work, either." That said, I like to think, (and my CSI numbers back me up), the VAST majority of my customer have a pleasant experience.
I started selling cars when I was 36. I taught high school English for 15 years, the last five at a Catholic school in Elmhurst, IL (where we live, and my wife-who-I-met-at-Marquette was raised). We had our third kid and I couldn't afford working for Rome anymore, so I started selling at my wife's uncle's dealership (2 miles from my house).
There are no requirements for being a car salesman, so well over 50% of them are terrible, (say a dealership has a staff of 10 salesman.. 4 desks are perpetually "new guys," two guys are very, very old, two guys are average, and two are very good salesmen).
Being a good car salesman is not easy-- which means there are not many out there, but if you find on-- you can have a valuable relationship for a long, long time. I sell a lot of vehicles to people I know from the school and town and we'll always cut profit, and in turn, my commission, to gain continued referrals and service customers. I also sell a lot of "fresh ups" whom I've never met before who become very strong referrals and seem sincerely happy to see me when they are in for an oil change.
I work a ton, (drastically different hours than teaching), and am always available. Tuesdays are my day off, and I've texted two customers who have already purchased this morning. I have strong product knowledge, including pre-owned; (I have two Masters and spend all my time in cars, together we can figure out how to pair the phone in your Honda Odyssey).
I can answer questions about leasing vs. purchasing and new vs. Certified. I can help you decide whether or not you need a third row or AWD and make you realize that color doesn't really matter. I'll give you a fair deal and can hold a conversation about your vacation to New Buffalo while we're waiting for the F & I guy. I'm above-average at getting people to pay the most they will/ for my product/ while making them happy because I'm an above-average salesman.
I understand people don't like the car buying process, but I think most of that falls on the bad salesman and/or bad business manager you had. I rarely have to "go to the tower" to ask a question because I know what I'm doing. My goal is repeat customers, so I'm not hiding once you drive off the lot.
Guys like you are a blessing. We buy 'slightly' used (or sometimes more than slightly). I'd love a chance to have you find the right vehicle for us (even if it takes some time) and get it on your lot if you don't have it already. I'm not ever trying to get the last $350 out of you to prove I can get the best deal ever. I just want a quality car that you'll stand behind as best as you can providing a quality experience. Shake on that and we've got a deal.
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IMO, most of the sales guys we've worked with have been great. New guys, old guys, good guys like inferiority.
The deals usually go sour once the finance manager and/or the sales manager get involved. They do more harm than good.
Funny enough, Russ Darrow in Madison was one of our better experiences, included the finance manager.
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IMO, most of the sales guys we've worked with have been great. New guys, old guys, good guys like inferiority.
The deals usually go sour once the finance manager and/or the sales manager get involved. They do more harm than good.
Funny enough, Russ Darrow in Madison was one of our better experiences, included the finance manager.
Everything went smoothly with the Outback until the finance guy wanted to sell the extended warranty. Knowing full well that the mfg's extended warranty is also something you can shop around AFTER THE PURCHASE at ANY DEALER right up until the 3yr/36k warranty expires (on a new or certified car), I made it very clear up front that we weren't purchasing one that day... he went through his dog and pony show and it wasn't until I actually said "You're really starting to piss me off" that I finally got through to him.
As I said... these folks are trained well and know exactly what to say to everything you might throw at them. Well, everything except "you're really starting to piss me off."
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'nother car shoppin' fact:
Deelerships dat sells upperend vehicles, treat ya bedder, hey?
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I sell new Buick and GMC, with about 60% of our sales coming from pre-owned (trade-ins, lease returns, few rentals, etc).
I know many/most people dread coming into a car dealership; I often make the equation to customers that my Dad was a dentist, and "nobody wanted to see him at work, either." That said, I like to think, (and my CSI numbers back me up), the VAST majority of my customer have a pleasant experience.
I started selling cars when I was 36. I taught high school English for 15 years, the last five at a Catholic school in Elmhurst, IL (where we live, and my wife-who-I-met-at-Marquette was raised). We had our third kid and I couldn't afford working for Rome anymore, so I started selling at my wife's uncle's dealership (2 miles from my house).
There are no requirements for being a car salesman, so well over 50% of them are terrible, (say a dealership has a staff of 10 salesman.. 4 desks are perpetually "new guys," two guys are very, very old, two guys are average, and two are very good salesmen).
Being a good car salesman is not easy-- which means there are not many out there, but if you find on-- you can have a valuable relationship for a long, long time. I sell a lot of vehicles to people I know from the school and town and we'll always cut profit, and in turn, my commission, to gain continued referrals and service customers. I also sell a lot of "fresh ups" whom I've never met before who become very strong referrals and seem sincerely happy to see me when they are in for an oil change.
I work a ton, (drastically different hours than teaching), and am always available. Tuesdays are my day off, and I've texted two customers who have already purchased this morning. I have strong product knowledge, including pre-owned; (I have two Masters and spend all my time in cars, together we can figure out how to pair the phone in your Honda Odyssey).
I can answer questions about leasing vs. purchasing and new vs. Certified. I can help you decide whether or not you need a third row or AWD and make you realize that color doesn't really matter. I'll give you a fair deal and can hold a conversation about your vacation to New Buffalo while we're waiting for the F & I guy. I'm above-average at getting people to pay the most they will/ for my product/ while making them happy because I'm an above-average salesman.
I understand people don't like the car buying process, but I think most of that falls on the bad salesman and/or bad business manager you had. I rarely have to "go to the tower" to ask a question because I know what I'm doing. My goal is repeat customers, so I'm not hiding once you drive off the lot.
You sound like a good guy who is good at what you do, and your dealership is lucky to have you.
I have bought a lot of cars, and you reinforced my general experience with your 4 desks are perpetually "new guys," two guys are very, very old, two guys are average, and two are very good salesmen line.
My only requirement is that they don't blatantly try to screw me.
I've had three instances where both the salesman and his direct supervisor agreed to sell me X car at X price only to have the big boss say something to the tune of, "Sorry, but we can't sell it at that price." I stood up to walk out each time. Twice, the guy relented and we made the deal. Once, the guy let me leave. Even the two deals I made, I didn't like how it went down and I never returned to that dealership.
The worst was the time I felt I was being screwed by the No. 2 guy at Grossinger Toyota in Chicago and so I went over his head and completed the deal. When I went to pick up the car a few weeks later (it had to be ordered), the gas tank was almost on E. After the salesman showed me around the car and went over all the features, I went to the No. 2 guy (the No. 1 was off that day) and asked politely for a full tank of gas. The guy, still pissed at me, told me it was company policy to not provide any gas. Rather than argue with him, I got into my new car, drove home, picked up the phone and called Toyota's U.S. corporate office. I insisted upon talking to a supervisor who could help me with a sales issue. I told him what happened. He assured me that Toyota's policy actually was the exact opposite -- that I should get a full tank of gas -- and that somebody would be back in touch with me within 24 hours. The next morning, Grossinger himself (or at least somebody from the family with that name, maybe there are several) called me, apologized profusely, assured me he would "talk to" the guy who tried to screw me, and asked if I'd be satisfied with a $50 gas card. (At that time, gas was about $1/gal, so obviously yes.) The card arrived in the mail 2 days later.
I know everybody has a car-buying story, and that's not what this thread is supposed to be about, but that's one of my best. I have others. Won't bore everybody. My point is: I don't mind any dealer who doesn't try to hose me.
One other off-topic note given the talk about the Honda Hybrid ...
My wife has been driving a 2016 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid purchased new about 2 years ago. We absolutely love it. Smooth, quiet, roomy, 40+ mpg, 5-year bumper-to-bumper warranty, 10-year drivetrain warranty, and considerably less expensive than Camry, Accord and Altima hybrids.
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82, your story is so familiar. And it seems to be only with cars. I can go buy a washer/dryer without the pain. None of us are asking that salesmen shine our shoes or do deals at a loss but the lack of professional decency is just breathtaking.
I spent an entire career negotiating extremely tough deals in turbulent and troubled times with businesses. I am tough and always seek to protect my institution's interest, as is my job. My profession requires to me to deliver harsh realities and orchestrate unpleasant outcomes. I am bold and aggressive in my approach. But I was never once dishonest or unfair.
I once had a 7 figure borrower literally walk into my office in mid December and ask if he could buy his kid a Christmas present. Slack jawed, I told him to get the hell out of my office, that I had kids too, and that we would pick our collective challenge up on January 2. I respected the hell out of him for asking. I'm sure that earned him something from me down the road. Like 30 extra days to work on his problems.
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'nother car shoppin' fact:
Deelerships dat sells upperend vehicles, treat ya bedder, hey?
Plus one, but only if they represent the manufacturer...
If anyone wants a show of shady sales tactics, head on over to the places selling used BMWs, Mercedes, Maseratis in the Western burbs (not sure which one, Roosevelt makes everything sort of look the same).
Absolute high comedy thanks mostly to the sellers dangling expensive cars with long, messy Carfax stories and horrible financing terms to the public. Kind of fun to negotiate with them and back out at the last second - good practice for dealing with more reputable dealerships.
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Car dealers, you gotta love 'em.
I had talked Ms. Dgies into a used vehicle, which turned out to be about a three-year old BMW 5-series. We first looked at the BMW dealer in Lake Bluff, IL, who advertised a price on the internet that was very attractive to us. I did a test-drive and had decided to buy the car. We called and said we were interested and were prepared to buy.
Guess what -- the advertised internet price was deemed to be a "mistake" and the actual price was $3,000 more. Needless to say, I'd rather walk that pay that dealer the additional money. It was bait and switch, especially since the net price had been posted for a couple of weeks.
We found the same car at the price we wanted at another Chicago-area BMW dealer. Even then, they were playing games with protection packages, super-extended warranties on tires (gee, don't the tire manufacturers have them) and on glass. Suffice to say, they were a bit startled when Ms. Dgies sneered and snarled at them when they told us an oil change was more than $400.00!
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Plus one, but only if they represent the manufacturer...
If anyone wants a show of shady sales tactics, head on over to the places selling used BMWs, Mercedes, Maseratis in the Western burbs (not sure which one, Roosevelt makes everything sort of look the same).
Absolute high comedy thanks mostly to the sellers dangling expensive cars with long, messy Carfax stories and horrible financing terms to the public. Kind of fun to negotiate with them and back out at the last second - good practice for dealing with more reputable dealerships.
In Lake County, our place is called M&I Motors on Skokums Hwy. They be screwin’ a lotta people lately judging by the new showroom they built recently. Either that or there’s a lot of dumbasses between Deerfield and North Chicago.
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Car dealers, you gotta love 'em.
I had talked Ms. Dgies into a used vehicle, which turned out to be about a three-year old BMW 5-series. We first looked at the BMW dealer in Lake Bluff, IL, who advertised a price on the internet that was very attractive to us. I did a test-drive and had decided to buy the car. We called and said we were interested and were prepared to buy.
Guess what -- the advertised internet price was deemed to be a "mistake" and the actual price was $3,000 more. Needless to say, I'd rather walk that pay that dealer the additional money. It was bait and switch, especially since the net price had been posted for a couple of weeks.
We found the same car at the price we wanted at another Chicago-area BMW dealer. Even then, they were playing games with protection packages, super-extended warranties on tires (gee, don't the tire manufacturers have them) and on glass. Suffice to say, they were a bit startled when Ms. Dgies sneered and snarled at them when they told us an oil change was more than $400.00!
Had the exact same experience before we ended up buying the Sonata Hybrid I mentioned in my previous post!
Dealer advertised a sale price on their Web site for had to be 2-3 weeks. I went there to get it at that price, and was told it was a mistake. They wanted to charge me $2500 more. Obviously, I got up, walked out and never went back. Ended up buying a week later at a different dealer. I made sure I sent the GM at the first dealer a note telling him why I didn't buy from them, too.
82, your story is so familiar. And it seems to be only with cars. I can go buy a washer/dryer without the pain. None of us are asking that salesmen shine our shoes or do deals at a loss but the lack of professional decency is just breathtaking.
I spent an entire career negotiating extremely tough deals in turbulent and troubled times with businesses. I am tough and always seek to protect my institution's interest, as is my job. My profession requires to me to deliver harsh realities and orchestrate unpleasant outcomes. I am bold and aggressive in my approach. But I was never once dishonest or unfair.
I once had a 7 figure borrower literally walk into my office in mid December and ask if he could buy his kid a Christmas present. Slack jawed, I told him to get the hell out of my office, that I had kids too, and that we would pick our collective challenge up on January 2. I respected the hell out of him for asking. I'm sure that earned him something from me down the road. Like 30 extra days to work on his problems.
Yeah, it's amazing how these places operate. Obviously, they are able to fleece enough people to make all the scumbaggery worth it.
With 20/20 hindsight, I know now that when I was younger and there was no interwebs in existence to do all the research, I got fleeced a few times.
Funny thing is, I do kinda enjoy the thrill of the chase. It's a sort of game in a weird way, and I do get some satisfaction when I think I at least come close to winning.
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Yeah, it's amazing how these places operate. Obviously, they are able to fleece enough people to make all the scumbaggery worth it.
Let's be clear that scum can only grow in favorable conditions... again, not defending the scumbags, but up to 49% of said scumbaggery is on the customers who cannot separate emotion from a sale transaction. Even in an increasingly materialistic society, the human intellect is still able to distinguish between needs and wants as well as process a simple cost-benefit analysis; nevertheless, we justify the pursuit of wants by cloaking them behind a need, usually love or self-worth.
Anytime my wife and I are shopping for a big-ticket item, house, car, vacation, etc... I tell her the same thing: Don't fall in love. Once you become emotional, you might as well put on a shirt that says "SUCKER" across the front. That doesn't mean end the pursuit, but if you want to be treated fairly, you need to be willing to walk away regardless of the situation.
Everyone has a first love... for many it was that boy or girl in high school. Some had an air pump. Eventually, ways parted (or an irreparable leak was sprung) and at the time each of us felt devastated, like there would never be anyone else... but just think about how things might be different if you married that person (or "person") because you thought he/she/it was the only one for you, and wisdom is found in stupidity.
If everyone could apply such "first love" logic to buying a car, the scumbag dealers wouldn't exist... the most successful salesfolk would be the ones who catered to the customer's needs, not the ones who were best at exploiting the system.
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Let's be clear that scum can only grow in favorable conditions... again, not defending the scumbags, but up to 49% of said scumbaggery is on the customers who cannot separate emotion from a sale transaction. Even in an increasingly materialistic society, the human intellect is still able to distinguish between needs and wants as well as process a simple cost-benefit analysis; nevertheless, we justify the pursuit of wants by cloaking them behind a need, usually love or self-worth.
Anytime my wife and I are shopping for a big-ticket item, house, car, vacation, etc... I tell her the same thing: Don't fall in love. Once you become emotional, you might as well put on a shirt that says "SUCKER" across the front. That doesn't mean end the pursuit, but if you want to be treated fairly, you need to be willing to walk away regardless of the situation.
Everyone has a first love... for many it was that boy or girl in high school. Some had an air pump. Eventually, ways parted (or an irreparable leak was sprung) and at the time each of us felt devastated, like there would never be anyone else... but just think about how things might be different if you married that person (or "person") because you thought he/she/it was the only one for you, and wisdom is found in stupidity.
If everyone could apply such "first love" logic to buying a car, the scumbag dealers wouldn't exist... the most successful salesfolk would be the ones who catered to the customer's needs, not the ones who were best at exploiting the system.
Truer words have never been spoke.
I bet you miss the hell out of that air pump, though!
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I remember a few decades back when some Chicago car dealers advertised too low to believe prices in newspapers, checking the fine print revealed the prices shown were half the actual price. Who would fall for that?
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Don't just be prepared to walk away, be prepared to call the local TV station. Know which one specializes in consumer issues and program their consumer hotline into your phone.
Get a screen grab of the online car listing before you go to the dealer (or take a picture). That will help the TV station verify your claim in case the dealer changes the online price. It'll also help the TV station so they can show the listed price.
If the dealer pulls a bait and switch, ask to speak to the highest ranking manager on site, preferably the GM. Tell him, "I'm getting that price or calling Action 2 News!"
Walking away just means they are going to screw somebody else. But a TV news story about them being a scummy car dealer is far more damaging to their bottom line than the $2,000 to $3,000 they let you save.
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I bet you miss the hell out of that air pump, though!
Damn straight. Without the air pump, there was something paradoxical in that I was doing most of the blowing.
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Favorite tales from the front:
1) Visited a car dealer once about a Lincoln Mercury vehicle. Spent time telling me about the car. Spent time telling Ms. Dgies about the make-up mirror. As if Ms. Dgies was going to make a major purchase based on the existence of a make-up mirror (LOL).
2) Went to a GM dealership in DuPage County, IL about a car. Liked one car, as did Ms. Dgies. Salesman spent time telling me all about the car and its features but absolutely ignored Ms. Dgies. Looked me in the eye but pretended she did not exist. At close of the presentation, he asked me, "so what do you think?" I looked him square in the eye and said, "it would be her car... she is making the decision!" Color ran out of the guy's face because he then knew his sexism meant he blew it big time.
3) About the same time, we looked at a Mitsubishi Eclipse. Chrysler offered the same car in their version. Lee Iaaccoa was screaming about how Mistubishi was getting $300 more per car than the same vehicle marketed by Chrysler. It was really simple why -- Mitsubishi had better dealers!
Final thought: Brother WI Inferiority Complex, you are what the sellers need. We had a daeler like that in our hometown. He sold Buicks and GMC and we ended up buying two Buicks from him (Enclave and LaCrosse). Liked working with someone local who sold and serviced the car. Sadly, GM shut him down when they consolidated their dealer network.
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I just went through the car-shopping nonsense last month and am gearing up to do it again because my wife's car is on its last legs.
The whole idea of there being a bunch of bad salespeople who turn over often seems to pan out. With the exception of one Nissan salesperson and the Toyota salesman that I ultimately bought from, there was a parade of incompetence I've never encountered before in any capacity.
I also ran into a lot of people who didn't seem all that interested in selling me a car. I inquired about a few, didn't get responses to emails, etc. I don't want to be called every fifteen minutes, but you'd think having a pulse would be part of the hiring test.
I did the Costco thing, did the Truecar thing, and threw everyone who responded into the ringer to see who would end up doing the best price. It worked fine, but ye deities what's with the transparent salesman playbook? The Can't Give You a Price Unless You Come In, the Delay, the Let Me Talk to the Manager, the Oh God You Don't Want GAP Insurance????
One manager person came over and tried to break down all the reasons why he couldn't do my price, one of which was "I have to pay the salesman's commission." I responded with "I'll give you free business advice, fire him because you're doing all the negotiation yourself. Looks like you've got a room full of people who don't serve a purpose if you're the only one who can make decisions."
It's the B.S. and the TRANSPARENT B.S. that everyone hates about car dealers.
List a price, sell it for that price. Run an ad like the old Dominoes ads where they were like "We know our pizza used to be bad, but it's good now." "Our salespeople used to be scoundrels, but now ..."
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Favorite tales from the front:
2) Went to a GM dealership in DuPage County, IL about a car. Liked one car, as did Ms. Dgies. Salesman spent time telling me all about the car and its features but absolutely ignored Ms. Dgies. Looked me in the eye but pretended she did not exist. At close of the presentation, he asked me, "so what do you think?" I looked him square in the eye and said, "it would be her car... she is making the decision!" Color ran out of the guy's face because he then knew his sexism meant he blew it big time.
I can do you one better, Brother D, and you will appreciate this because it happened in Nashville.
A co-worker of mine in Milwaukee moved to Music City because her husband got transferred. Soon after getting down there, she went shopping for a car. She found a car that she liked, and was ready to make a deal with the salesperson. He flat out refused to negotiate with her unless she came back with her husband. Although she was wearing a wedding ring, she had not mentioned him at any prior point in the process.
Like Julia Roberts said in Pretty Woman, "Big Mistake. BIG Mistake".
She left, and a couple of days later, bought the same car from someone who believed womenfolk were able to make their own decisions.
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I sell new Buick and GMC, with about 60% of our sales coming from pre-owned (trade-ins, lease returns, few rentals, etc).
Sounds like you may be talking about Haggerty Buick/GMC in Villa Park.
I had a very good experience there and do recommend them around town.
I also agree that word of mouth is as important (or more important) in car buying as almost any other industry.
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This thread reminded me of an email exchange I had with a dealer about 10 years ago. I just went back and re-read the email chain and it gave me a good chuckle.
It was here in Cleveland, but he was a Milwaukee guy and we talked about Marquette. His title was Manager of Customer relations. I really liked the guy when we spoke, and wanted to buy the car from him. A day or two after I was at the dealership, I sent an email asking their best offer and asked him to include all the main numbers for a lease (sale price, residual, interest, down payment, fees, monthly payment). The dealership was much closer to my house than the other dealer I was talking to, so I really did want to get the car from them if possible.
He sent me an extremely high-ball quote that wasn't even for the term that I had requested (I'd requested 36, he sent 48) but it did have all the different numbers I had requested. I asked how it would change things if we shortened the term, but he didn't give me the new numbers. I shared another quote I had which were much better on the sale price, interest, down payment, etc., and asked me if they could beat it. He told me that if I came in that day, his boss would give me the car at a monthly payment $5 less than the quote from the other dealer. (Side note: the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.) But, he absolutely refused to give me any of the other numbers that they were using to get to that payment -- only promised it would be a lower monthly payment. I told him that I didn't know why they were making it difficult, and asked if they could just provide all the numbers I'd requested so I could make an apples to apples comparison. He told me that it wasn't rocket science and said, "I'm not sure what this whole email me back and forth thing is about and the beating around the bush either your ready or your not."
When he emailed me the following Monday, I let him know that I got the car from the other dealer over the weekend.
It really was a strange experience. He eventually seemed to think that essentially insulting me would cause me to run to the dealership and by the car from him. I'm glad I saved the email exchange as I've re-read it a couple times over the years, and I always find it amusing.
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This thread reminded me of an email exchange I had with a dealer about 10 years ago. I just went back and re-read the email chain and it gave me a good chuckle.
It was here in Cleveland, but he was a Milwaukee guy and we talked about Marquette. His title was Manager of Customer relations. I really liked the guy when we spoke, and wanted to buy the car from him. A day or two after I was at the dealership, I sent an email asking their best offer and asked him to include all the main numbers for a lease (sale price, residual, interest, down payment, fees, monthly payment). The dealership was much closer to my house than the other dealer I was talking to, so I really did want to get the car from them if possible.
He sent me an extremely high-ball quote that wasn't even for the term that I had requested (I'd requested 36, he sent 48) but it did have all the different numbers I had requested. I asked how it would change things if we shortened the term, but he didn't give me the new numbers. I shared another quote I had which were much better on the sale price, interest, down payment, etc., and asked me if they could beat it. He told me that if I came in that day, his boss would give me the car at a monthly payment $5 less than the quote from the other dealer. (Side note: the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.) But, he absolutely refused to give me any of the other numbers that they were using to get to that payment -- only promised it would be a lower monthly payment. I told him that I didn't know why they were making it difficult, and asked if they could just provide all the numbers I'd requested so I could make an apples to apples comparison. He told me that it wasn't rocket science and said, "I'm not sure what this whole email me back and forth thing is about and the beating around the bush either your ready or your not."
When he emailed me the following Monday, I let him know that I got the car from the other dealer over the weekend.
It really was a strange experience. He eventually seemed to think that essentially insulting me would cause me to run to the dealership and by the car from him. I'm glad I saved the email exchange as I've re-read it a couple times over the years, and I always find it amusing.
First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment. Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car. It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment. After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA. Don't try to pull that with us."
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First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment. Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car. It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment. After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
[...]
Do people literally by cars based on nothing more than the monthly payment? They must because I've gotten some weird questions like that from dealers.
Ever go into a Carmax to get a quote on a trade for information purposes? The first time I did I was coming off a bout with the flu, and I went in after work so I was exhausted. While the appraiser people were looking at my car, the saleswoman started asking me questions and I was too cooked to do anything but mumble half-hearted responses.
"What kind of payment do you want?"
"Uh, I dunno, I was gonna pay cash."
"Oh okay, what kind of price were you looking at?"
"Uh, $20k I guess, I'm not really here to buy a car."
"Well let's just take a look see at what we've got. Oh here's a 10 year old Infinity with 120k miles on it that's RIGHT in your price range."
<blank stare>
/fin
I was just in there for the same purpose only this time didn't engage. I did scope it out to see if they were selling anything comparable to what I was selling (a '13 Altima w/ 150k miles). They were selling a '13 Altima w/ 120k for $11k! Who is buying a 6 year old midsize sedan with 100k+ miles on it for over ten grand?
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I can do you one better, Brother D, and you will appreciate this because it happened in Nashville.
A co-worker of mine in Milwaukee moved to Music City because her husband got transferred. Soon after getting down there, she went shopping for a car. She found a car that she liked, and was ready to make a deal with the salesperson. He flat out refused to negotiate with her unless she came back with her husband. Although she was wearing a wedding ring, she had not mentioned him at any prior point in the process.
Like Julia Roberts said in Pretty Woman, "Big Mistake. BIG Mistake".
She left, and a couple of days later, bought the same car from someone who believed womenfolk were able to make their own decisions.
My Mother had the same thing happen to her years ago. Went into a Pontiac dealership in Madison, TN. She talked with a salesman and really liked the car. The salesman was excited and saw sale and asked her, "Do you have your Husband's permission?"
My Dad did not want to be bothered with a car purchase. They'd agreed on what they wanted already and what the budget was. So my Mom, knowing what was about to happen, had the guy call my Dad at work. The salesman started and My Dad cut him off and said, "What the hell did my wife tell you?" The salesman studdered and then my Dad said, "Don't ask me. It's Her car. Now go away." and hung up on him.
I think Mom extracted a much larger discount as a consequence of that a*s.
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First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment. Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car. It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment. After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA with 3 dragons flying around her. Don't try to pull that with us."
FIFY
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(Side note: the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.)
+1! I once had a UPS salesman present 2 contract offers (I was consulting a client's bids for parcel service) and he told me the (much) better proposal was only good for 24 hours. There was no possible way that this corporation would make any decision within 2 weeks let alone 24 hours on a 2 year contract. I was stunned that UPS would even do that.
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First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment. Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car. It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment. After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA. Don't try to pull that with us."
As you can tell, I'm not a very nice guy. :o
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Don't just be prepared to walk away, be prepared to call the local TV station. Know which one specializes in consumer issues and program their consumer hotline into your phone.
Get a screen grab of the online car listing before you go to the dealer (or take a picture). That will help the TV station verify your claim in case the dealer changes the online price. It'll also help the TV station so they can show the listed price.
If the dealer pulls a bait and switch, ask to speak to the highest ranking manager on site, preferably the GM. Tell him, "I'm getting that price or calling Action 2 News!"
Walking away just means they are going to screw somebody else. But a TV news story about them being a scummy car dealer is far more damaging to their bottom line than the $2,000 to $3,000 they let you save.
I really like this idea, Lazar, and I'm going to use it (if necessary) next time.
When I'm watching TV and there's a scene with corruption or something, I scream something along the lines of: "Just threaten to take it to the New York Times!" I should follow my own advice.
Related note:
A few folks have mentioned the Costco Car Program.
I have found that it gets very good results if the car is a popular newer model or one in short supply for some reason. But if it's just a regular Camry or CRV or Rogue or something, usually a good deal-maker can beat Costco's program price. Just what I've found, anyway. Those who don't care about saving those last few hundies and just want an easier deal, Costco is a painless way to go -- especially if you don't have a trade-in, don't need financing and are good at rejecting all the ad-ons like extended warranty.
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I really like this idea, Lazar, and I'm going to use it (if necessary) next time.
When I'm watching TV and there's a scene with corruption or something, I scream something along the lines of: "Just threaten to take it to the New York Times!" I should follow my own advice.
Related note:
A few folks have mentioned the Costco Car Program.
I have found that it gets very good results if the car is a popular newer model or one in short supply for some reason. But if it's just a regular Camry or CRV or Rogue or something, usually a good deal-maker can beat Costco's program price. Just what I've found, anyway. Those who don't care about saving those last few hundies and just want an easier deal, Costco is a painless way to go -- especially if you don't have a trade-in, don't need financing and are good at rejecting all the ad-ons like extended warranty.
yup
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I've purchased my last 4 cars via email, all have been easy. Pickups were a test drive and paperwork.
Heck, one of those cars, I had a good price from a dealer in Chicago but went to a Milwaukee dealer and they didn't even try to meet the price I already had.
In short .. email has worked for me every time.
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I have had nothing but positive experiences purchasing cars over the years. I have a plan, usually know more than the salesman about the car, stay pleasant, try to get to a number that is a win-win and am always prepared to walk away if I feel like I am getting played. I have done that twice. When my children were younger, I would bring them along to get fidgety and then use their restlessness as a tool to get to a bottom line number more quickly.
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I have had nothing but positive experiences purchasing cars over the years. I have a plan, usually know more than the salesman about the car, stay pleasant, try to get to a number that is a win-win and am always prepared to walk away if I feel like I am getting played. I have done that twice. When my children were younger, I would bring them along to get fidgety and then use their restlessness as a tool to get to a bottom line number more quickly.
12 year olds can still get plenty squirrelly. ;D
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Glad ta cee yo post, kin. Worried ya were mixed up in da WTS incident, hey?
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Glad ta cee yo post, kin. Worried ya were mixed up in da WTS incident, hey?
Only a few blocks from my office, we our building is still closed from the flooding. We are all working from home until the power is fixed.
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I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.
I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.
What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?
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PTM
Like Tower said, know approximately what a used car in the models you like should cost. Know what about to expect on a trade-in (if you have one). Check car loan bank rates which are usually posted on bank websites. I would check AAA auto loan rates too. Write it all down or print out so when you go into the dealer you know what is reasonable.
Check out cars.com or Kellysbluebook.com or autotrader.com
I just bought a new Acadia over the summer. My oldest daughter started driving and we decided to not buy another used car for her and the oldest daughter would just drive our oldest car. We paid about what we expected. The GMC dealer was actually very cool. They called us back after we agreed to purchase the car and said they got the price down further because my wife is a teacher and GM has a teachers discount.
I bought a 1-year old certified car at the very end of 2014. The dealer was looking to add sales before the year closed out, so they met the crazy low price my wife threw out in negotiation.
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I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.
I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.
What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?
I think the fact you are flexible on model helps. If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on. Are you trading in? While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...
Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) cars tend to be pretty hot sellers, so when we were looking for a CRV a few years ago, CPOs were trending around $21K-$24K w/ mileage in the 25K-35K realm. We were buying around this time of the year, so they still had A LOT new CRV's on the lot from the previous year, and financing rates for new are much better than CPO, and we got .9% and OTD (out the door price w/ all fees, taxes, registration) for $25.5K. In my opinion, dealers don't negotiate CPOs as much because they don't have much of an incentive since they are faster sellers than new.
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13 months ago, my wife totaled her Outback. (Don't get me started on insurance companies. A whole other thread) Her first instinct was to buy a late model used Outback. It was the end of the 2017 model year and Subaru was having their year end clearance. Whereas we would have had to drop mid $20's for any kind of late model used Outback, our dealership was already knocking $4500 off of in-stock 2017 stickers and offering 0% for 63 months. Didn't even try to dicker on that. Walked in with the $10k insurance check and financed $20k at 0% for a brand new car.
Pay attention to model year closeouts and financing deals. Be patient and flexible.
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I'm a fan of the website CarGurus.com for new/used car listings. They do a nice job showing the advertised price, and whether they think that's above or below market rates. Not to mention .. they'll show how many days the (used) car has been on the lot, and the dates and amounts of the price drops as time goes on.
Nice to find a car that's been sitting there for 3 months. "Wanna sell me the car at my offer, or keep that car on your lot for 4 months?"
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I think the fact you are flexible on model helps. If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on. Are you trading in? While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...
We have bought a couple of cars at CarMax, and yes, it was quite a pleasant experience. But in the last few years they have really bumped up their prices. I recently read an article that said on average, Carmax sells its cars for more than $2K over the rest of the market. For that amount, I am willing to put up with an afternoon of B.S.
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I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.
I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.
What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?
Not sure how well it works for used, but for a new car I used Truecar.com. You put in the specs of what you're interested in, and click like the see offers button and within (not exaggerating) seconds, I got emails and phone calls from every dealer in the area. I answered each phone call with a really quick and hushed "sorry, at work, can't talk, but I can email. Can you email me?" and got a bunch of quotes in a hurry. Was able to pit everyone against each other via email.
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I think the fact you are flexible on model helps. If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on. Are you trading in? While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...
Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) cars tend to be pretty hot sellers, so when we were looking for a CRV a few years ago, CPOs were trending around $21K-$24K w/ mileage in the 25K-35K realm. We were buying around this time of the year, so they still had A LOT new CRV's on the lot from the previous year, and financing rates for new are much better than CPO, and we got .9% and OTD (out the door price w/ all fees, taxes, registration) for $25.5K. In my opinion, dealers don't negotiate CPOs as much because they don't have much of an incentive since they are faster sellers than new.
I had a similiar experience a few years ago when shopping for a CR-V. Three year old used CR-Vs with 25-35k miles were about $20,500. I'm betting most of those were leased cars turned back in after the 36 month lease was up.
We ended up leasing a new CR-V with an option to buy. Down payment was definitely under $5k, and IIRC it was around $3k. Monthly payment totaled $220 and the end of lease purchase price was about $14,500. Total cost of about $23,750.
We essentially treated the lease like 36 month 0% financing (or very minimal). Then we had a balloon payment at the end but we were able to save up the cash during the 36 months.
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First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment. Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car. It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment. After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA. Don't try to pull that with us."
I am admittedly not great with numbers - can you explain why it is a bad idea to negotiate based on the payment?
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I am admittedly not great with numbers - can you explain why it is a bad idea to negotiate based on the payment?
Because it's easy for the dealer to say:
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just take 72 month financing, instead of 60 month"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just put $2K down instead of nothing"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just lease for 36 months, instead of buying..."
yadda, yadda, yadda...
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I love the car buying game, maybe it's a career of being in sales, and being on the other side of the table, but I love it.
My advice:
-Do as much of your negotiating over the internet. Never just walk into a dealer blind.
-Use your email quotes against other dealers, don't fight for every last dollar over email, but you'll know who to use/eliminate rather quickly.
-Never negotiate for the monthly payment, but have in your head your plan of how much you have budgeted to pay per month. My two cents, never go above 60 months on financing
-Eventually when you decide what dealer to walk into, let them know up front you talked to Billy/Susie in the internet dept, and you have a quote from him/her. This immediately gives you a little bit of leverage
-Don't get emotional, don't be a jerk to the sales rep. He/She should be motivated to work with you, and your gut instinct will start to tell you soon into the process whether you're going to do a deal or not
-Know your credit score and what the finance options are before you walk into the dealer. Interest rates keep going up, if you see a dealer advertising 2.9% on their website, see if you can go to a credit union and do better than that. Keep that better finance rate though in your back pocket. Dealers may give you a better purchase price knowing they're getting an incentive for you to finance at their rate through that car mfg's financial institution. Just re-fi after you make one payment
-Know how much you want to put down, don't do a penny more. As others have said, if the dealer knows you want to pay $400 a month, they'll tell you to throw an extra $1000 (or whatever) down to get you there.
-Never ever take the extended warranty. Ever. Do a Nancy Reagan, just say no. It's uncomfortable with the finance mgr, just get through it. They're going to ask you open ended questions like "what would you do if the XXXXX failed/died? It's $4000 to replace it". My simple response has always been "Well, I'd never buy another Honda/Toyota/Ford ever again, and would certainly never set foot in here again."
-Be comfortable walking away. If you know the deal is going south, simply say no thanks, we're going to leave. The dealer wants you there as long as possible, your time is important, if it's not going well, there's plenty of other cars/dealers out there that you can make a deal with
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Maybe you cats should move out of a transactional relationship to a service relationship with your dealer? Been with the same dealer since college. Free loaners, finds rebates, slips in warranty work, shared weddings, funerals, has donated to our causes and given car giveaways to friends in severe need. Even did a tow in Milwaukee back to Chicago for free. Pay and fair price, and have been paid back in full. Deals are literally a handshake.
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I love the car buying game, maybe it's a career of being in sales, and being on the other side of the table, but I love it.
My advice:
-Do as much of your negotiating over the internet. Never just walk into a dealer blind.
-Use your email quotes against other dealers, don't fight for every last dollar over email, but you'll know who to use/eliminate rather quickly.
-Never negotiate for the monthly payment, but have in your head your plan of how much you have budgeted to pay per month. My two cents, never go above 60 months on financing
-Eventually when you decide what dealer to walk into, let them know up front you talked to Billy/Susie in the internet dept, and you have a quote from him/her. This immediately gives you a little bit of leverage
-Don't get emotional, don't be a jerk to the sales rep. He/She should be motivated to work with you, and your gut instinct will start to tell you soon into the process whether you're going to do a deal or not
-Know your credit score and what the finance options are before you walk into the dealer. Interest rates keep going up, if you see a dealer advertising 2.9% on their website, see if you can go to a credit union and do better than that. Keep that better finance rate though in your back pocket. Dealers may give you a better purchase price knowing they're getting an incentive for you to finance at their rate through that car mfg's financial institution. Just re-fi after you make one payment
-Know how much you want to put down, don't do a penny more. As others have said, if the dealer knows you want to pay $400 a month, they'll tell you to throw an extra $1000 (or whatever) down to get you there.
-Never ever take the extended warranty. Ever. Do a Nancy Reagan, just say no. It's uncomfortable with the finance mgr, just get through it. They're going to ask you open ended questions like "what would you do if the XXXXX failed/died? It's $4000 to replace it". My simple response has always been "Well, I'd never buy another Honda/Toyota/Ford ever again, and would certainly never set foot in here again."
-Be comfortable walking away. If you know the deal is going south, simply say no thanks, we're going to leave. The dealer wants you there as long as possible, your time is important, if it's not going well, there's plenty of other cars/dealers out there that you can make a deal with
Not too mention, I think it was mentioned above, but you can buy an extended warranty after your purchase your care, at a fraction of the price. I got quoted for one @ my dealer for around $4,000 (to extend from 3 yr/36,000 to a 7/yr 100,000). I found the same one, from another dealer online for like $1,900.
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Maybe you cats should move out of a transactional relationship to a service relationship with your dealer? Been with the same dealer since college. Free loaners, finds rebates, slips in warranty work, shared weddings, funerals, has donated to our causes and given car giveaways to friends in severe need. Even did a tow in Milwaukee back to Chicago for free. Pay and fair price, and have been paid back in full. Deals are literally a handshake.
No car dealer has ever made enough money off of me to offer me all this "free" stuff. I think we come out ahead in the long run.
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No car dealer has ever made enough money off of me to offer me all this "free" stuff. I think we come out ahead in the long run.
It always tickled me that when trying to sell you the car, they go on and on about how reliable it is. Then the minute you agree to buy it, the first thing they do is to try to sell you an extended warranty.
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I love the car buying game, maybe it's a career of being in sales, and being on the other side of the table, but I love it.
My advice:
-Do as much of your negotiating over the internet. Never just walk into a dealer blind.
-Use your email quotes against other dealers, don't fight for every last dollar over email, but you'll know who to use/eliminate rather quickly.
-Never negotiate for the monthly payment, but have in your head your plan of how much you have budgeted to pay per month. My two cents, never go above 60 months on financing
-Eventually when you decide what dealer to walk into, let them know up front you talked to Billy/Susie in the internet dept, and you have a quote from him/her. This immediately gives you a little bit of leverage
-Don't get emotional, don't be a jerk to the sales rep. He/She should be motivated to work with you, and your gut instinct will start to tell you soon into the process whether you're going to do a deal or not
-Know your credit score and what the finance options are before you walk into the dealer. Interest rates keep going up, if you see a dealer advertising 2.9% on their website, see if you can go to a credit union and do better than that. Keep that better finance rate though in your back pocket. Dealers may give you a better purchase price knowing they're getting an incentive for you to finance at their rate through that car mfg's financial institution. Just re-fi after you make one payment
-Know how much you want to put down, don't do a penny more. As others have said, if the dealer knows you want to pay $400 a month, they'll tell you to throw an extra $1000 (or whatever) down to get you there.
-Never ever take the extended warranty. Ever. Do a Nancy Reagan, just say no. It's uncomfortable with the finance mgr, just get through it. They're going to ask you open ended questions like "what would you do if the XXXXX failed/died? It's $4000 to replace it". My simple response has always been "Well, I'd never buy another Honda/Toyota/Ford ever again, and would certainly never set foot in here again."
-Be comfortable walking away. If you know the deal is going south, simply say no thanks, we're going to leave. The dealer wants you there as long as possible, your time is important, if it's not going well, there's plenty of other cars/dealers out there that you can make a deal with
This isn't for everyone, but I am quite comfortable saying no to an extended warranty because I do a lot of my auto repair myself. I did not grow up wrenching on cars and am not a mechanical engineer. Instead, I've asked a lot of questions of people who know cars, find you tube videos (there's a TON of good ones out there), and as a last resort, know a few people who do work out of their home garage. Outside of stuff covered by the original warranty, I've not taken a car to a mechanic in years. I also can get parts pretty cheap.....St. Paul Park Auto Parts. If you live anywhere near there, you have to go in and try them. Their office is just "iconic" You've never see more ground-in chicken bones, pizza boxes, and old soup cans laying on the floor. It's so filthy, it's almost funny. However, their prices are so low, none of the big chains will match their prices. They do a crap-ton of business.
Brake jobs are classic. Go to a dealer, and they want around $100,if not more, and will try to talk you into new rotors too. A set of brake pads are about $20. I love how shops try to scare people with "ITS YOUR BRAKES", don't risk it!
Here's another example.....I was getting an engine light, and the car's computer put the car into low power mode. I looked this up on YouTube. I had a buildup of carbon on the intake manifold. The fix involved a screwdriver, a rag, some carb cleaner and 5 minutes of my time. That would have been a $300 - $500 repair at a dealer. One other example....a couple of years later, I got the same code. The second most common cause of this was the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) was bad. Bought a new one for $50, and replaced it in 5 minutes.
Also, don't be afraid to ask for repairs covered under the original warrant after it's expired. GM put in a new AC compressor on my Tahoe 30k miles after the warranty expired.
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It always tickled me that when trying to sell you the car, they go on and on about how reliable it is. Then the minute you agree to buy it, the first thing they do is to try to sell you an extended warranty.
I legit LOL'd at this, so true!
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I am admittedly not great with numbers - can you explain why it is a bad idea to negotiate based on the payment?
Because it blurs your objectivity and research regarding the transaction. Know what you are paying for your car (so you can compare). Know what you are getting for your trade (so you can compare to blue book). Know the interest rate you are paying and the terms of your loan. The 'payment' simply falls out of that as a calculated figure. Now to have a sense as to the size of payment you're interested in/capable of? Fine. But that doesn't overshadow knowing those other relevant facts.
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Because it's easy for the dealer to say:
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just take 72 month financing, instead of 60 month"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just put $2K down instead of nothing"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just lease for 36 months, instead of buying..."
yadda, yadda, yadda...
And this is why, when I used to lease, I was insistent on getting all the different numbers. There are just so many places they can screw you when you lease if all you're trying to do is bring the monthly payment down. Here are some common ones, but I'm sure there are others: higher down payment (look for "capital cost reduction"); higher buy out amount (look for "residual value"); longer term (e.g., 30 months instead of 24); fewer miles included (e.g., 10k/year instead of 18k); higher fees. That is why, as mentioned in my post above about the email exchange, I always insisted that they tell me each of those different numbers so I could see where they were "hiding" the amount. That dealer I was dealing with had initially quoted me a sale price that was several thousand dollars higher than the other dealer, but he was promising a cheaper monthly payment. It's not difficult to recognize that if the price is higher, but the payment is lower, they're "hiding" that extra money somewhere. Depending on how you plan to use the car or whether you plan to buy it at the end of the lease, you might not care about some of the issues, and if you realize that they're adding it in to the buyout price of a car you have no intention of buying at the end of the lease you might not care. But, if you're comparing multiple quotes, it is really helpful to have all of those different numbers.
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And this is why, when I used to lease, I was insistent on getting all the different numbers. There are just so many places they can screw you when you lease if all you're trying to do is bring the monthly payment down. Here are some common ones, but I'm sure there are others: higher down payment (look for "capital cost reduction"); higher buy out amount (look for "residual value"); longer term (e.g., 30 months instead of 24); fewer miles included (e.g., 10k/year instead of 18k); higher fees. That is why, as mentioned in my post above about the email exchange, I always insisted that they tell me each of those different numbers so I could see where they were "hiding" the amount. That dealer I was dealing with had initially quoted me a sale price that was several thousand dollars higher than the other dealer, but he was promising a cheaper monthly payment. It's not difficult to recognize that if the price is higher, but the payment is lower, they're "hiding" that extra money somewhere. Depending on how you plan to use the car or whether you plan to buy it at the end of the lease, you might not care about some of the issues, and if you realize that they're adding it in to the buyout price of a car you have no intention of buying at the end of the lease you might not care. But, if you're comparing multiple quotes, it is really helpful to have all of those different numbers.
I would never lease. It only makes financial sense if you trade in cars every few years (and then not always), which in and of itself isn't the most financially sensible thing to do.
Buy a gently used car (with cash, if possible) and drive it until it dies.
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I would never lease. It only makes financial sense if you trade in cars every few years (and then not always), which in and of itself isn't the most financially sensible thing to do.
Buy a gently used car (with cash, if possible) and drive it until it dies.
The only reason I leased was I had an employer who provided a car allowance and expected that I would have a new car every couple of years. Since then (four or five cars), we've done exactly as you mention -- fairly low mileage used cars and never in a rush to buy when we do start looking. I honestly doubt we'll ever have a new car again.
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As you can tell, I'm not a very nice guy. :o
That's what Sister Chick says. ;D
Seriously, to be in business, you have to say "no." That's not being nice or mean, it's reflecting the realities of what you can and cannot do.
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That's what Sister Chick says. ;D
Seriously, to be in business, you have to say "no." That's not being nice or mean, it's reflecting the realities of what you can and cannot do.
Recalling that I spent a career in troubled debt workout, I have a classic line:
"I don't mind you asking if you don't mind me saying no." Said it literally thousands of times. :)
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No car dealer has ever made enough money off of me to offer me all this "free" stuff. I think we come out ahead in the long run.
Spoken like a true beancounter!
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I would never lease. It only makes financial sense if you trade in cars every few years (and then not always), which in and of itself isn't the most financially sensible thing to do.
Buy a gently used car (with cash, if possible) and drive it until it dies.
We leased for one of my children going to college for 36 months. No money factor to speak of and the resid on the car 2.5 years in is holding to the market value. No fights over who gets it and no money and I mean no money up front.
We did the gently used bit twice and I generally agree. One was a VW Eos, which had 28,000 miles seven years ago and we still have (gently used) with 78,000. Paid cash.
The second is a BMW 5-Series which we purchased a couple weeks ago. Originally $58,000; lets just say the deal we got was no where near that amount. The first three years of depreciation is obscene. So we get it after the value "puts some clothes on."
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I would never lease. It only makes financial sense if you trade in cars every few years (and then not always), which in and of itself isn't the most financially sensible thing to do.
Buy a gently used car (with cash, if possible) and drive it until it dies.
Eh. We lease a car for my wife because she likes to drive new cars and switch them up every couple years. Not a huge luxury by any means, but she likes it.
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Listen, if you want to be transactional and buy on price and product only, don't expect full service. It's like buying Allen Edmonds on Amazon and complaining their service and quality have fallen.
Today, just about every purchase has a good-better-best option. Southwest has free check-in, for a bit more you can have the bit grab your seat, and for a bit more you can pay to be in the first 15 slots. But, don't select the general check-in and then complain there are only middle seats in the back.
Same with cars. If you are an internet price shopper, you aren't buying the full service option. You are transactional. Don't expect the upgraded floor mats.
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Listen, if you want to be transactional and buy on price and product only, don't expect full service. It's like buying Allen Edmonds on Amazon and complaining their service and quality have fallen.
Today, just about every purchase has a good-better-best option. Southwest has free check-in, for a bit more you can have the bit grab your seat, and for a bit more you can pay to be in the first 15 slots. But, don't select the general check-in and then complain there are only middle seats in the back.
Same with cars. If you are an internet price shopper, you aren't buying the full service option. You are transactional. Don't expect the upgraded floor mats.
I actually got the upgraded floor mats when I bought my Accord Hybrid (I didn't ask for them, they showed up in the car at walk through, sales rep just said "we threw these in"). But point taken, you're correct.
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Spoken like a true beancounter!
"Free" is one of the misused words in the English language.
When chick jr. visited Marquette as a prospective student, we took a tour of Raynor library. The tour guide pointed to a PrintWise machine, and told everyone that ever student could print out a certain number of pages for free every semester.
"Excuse me," I said, "That printing is not free. It's included in the $35 grand we are paying for tuition." The other parents nodded in agreement.
For the rest of the tour, every time the tour guide said something like, "And we have free tutoring-" The parents would shout in unison, "Included!". We had her trained by the end of the tour.
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I actually got the upgraded floor mats when I bought my Accord Hybrid (I didn't ask for them, they showed up in the car at walk through, sales rep just said "we threw these in"). But point taken, you're correct.
My wife always insists on the all-weather mats once everything else is pretty much hammered out. She's never been denied yet.
I honestly am not terribly interested in the "service" aspect of the purchase. And, aside from the somewhat odd email exchange I wrote about above, I've never had a particularly noteworthy experience (good or bad) when purchasing a car. We generally know what we're looking for when we show up and just want a quick* test drive and then get pretty quickly to what we're willing to pay and work out the price. Are we leaving money on the table? Maybe...I don't know. Probably. But we've always been satisfied with the prices/deals that we've gotten -- and I always do a fair amount of research on comparable vehicles so I know generally what is a decent price.
*And I do mean "quick." My wife's test drives are legendary. She just wants to have a very basic confirmation that she's comfortable in the car. With no exaggeration, she's had "test drives" that have lasted about 120 seconds. Literally drive a block, turn around and return. I've come to accept that's just how she does it. And I'm not just talking about eliminating cars from consideration based upon these short tests; she's also picked cars this way.
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Listen, if you want to be transactional and buy on price and product only, don't expect full service. It's like buying Allen Edmonds on Amazon and complaining their service and quality have fallen.
Today, just about every purchase has a good-better-best option. Southwest has free check-in, for a bit more you can have the bit grab your seat, and for a bit more you can pay to be in the first 15 slots. But, don't select the general check-in and then complain there are only middle seats in the back.
Same with cars. If you are an internet price shopper, you aren't buying the full service option. You are transactional. Don't expect the upgraded floor mats.
Agreed. But what folks are discussing here are dishonest business practices, bait and switch, etc. And I never complain about my B-46 boarding pass on SWA. Not to hijack, but we were all thrilled when a pastel sweatered golf guy got 'moved' to a rear middle seat when he tried to hold a couple seats for his late arriving buddies and a well dressed African American man and his wife reminded him that seat saving wasn't allowed and those two next to him were the last two the couple saw together. When he no longer wanted to sit next to 'those' people, the FA found him a wonderful alternative. ;D
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Dealerships don't make the majority of their money off the sale of the car. They make more off of service and financing. Many make most of their money from the manufacturer off of incentive programs for hitting certain numbers or other goals.
Just because you have a good relationship with a dealership and salesperson doesn't mean you are paying too much. It means that the dealership wants to keep you as a consistent customer for all of their services, of which, the vehicle purchase is just a small portion.
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"Free" is one of the misused words in the English language.
When chick jr. visited Marquette as a prospective student, we took a tour of Raynor library. The tour guide pointed to a PrintWise machine, and told everyone that ever student could print out a certain number of pages for free every semester.
"Excuse me," I said, "That printing is not free. It's included in the $35 grand we are paying for tuition." The other parents nodded in agreement.
For the rest of the tour, every time the tour guide said something like, "And we have free tutoring-" The parent's would shout in unison, "Included!". We had her trained by the end of the tour.
As a former tour guide, thank you for your service. ::)
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It always tickled me that when trying to sell you the car, they go on and on about how reliable it is. Then the minute you agree to buy it, the first thing they do is to try to sell you an extended warranty.
I actually have said a form of this every time the business manager tries to sell me an extended warranty.
Something like, "I don't need an extended warranty because I've been promised that this is the best-built, most-reliable car I'll ever drive."
Given their brand's 5-year bumper-to-bumper and 10-year drivetrain warranties, Hyundai dealers must not be doing brisk extended-warranty business. At least I hope not.
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I bought a 3 year old minivan this spring and .. gasp .. bought the extended warranty. 5 years, $500 a year. Our last minivan (same model) .. years 5-6-7-8 were rough. Expensive things broke. We easily spent $2500 on it in its last few years, and it needed more when I dumped it.
One thing .. the minivan I was purchasing had zero warranty. If I drove it off the lot and found the sunroof was inoperable, I had zero recourse. The extended warranty had a 30 day full-refund cancellation policy .. so I figured it was a free way to get a 30 day warranty. I could cancel on Day 29 .. but I kept it.
One other bonus to the EW .. free key-fob replacement for any reason. Those damn things are $600 to replace. BOTH of my previous fobs were non-functional when got rid of the old car. I am totally getting a few new ones out of this.
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I bought a 3 year old minivan this spring and .. gasp .. bought the extended warranty. 5 years, $500 a year. Our last minivan (same model) .. years 5-6-7-8 were rough. Expensive things broke. We easily spent $2500 on it in its last few years, and it needed more when I dumped it.
One thing .. the minivan I was purchasing had zero warranty. If I drove it off the lot and found the sunroof was inoperable, I had zero recourse. The extended warranty had a 30 day full-refund cancellation policy .. so I figured it was a free way to get a 30 day warranty. I could cancel on Day 29 .. but I kept it.
One other bonus to the EW .. free key-fob replacement for any reason. Those damn things are $600 to replace. BOTH of my previous fobs were non-functional when got rid of the old car. I am totally getting a few new ones out of this.
My god man. Have you learned nothing in this thread—you paid for that key fob.
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Solid rip, hey?
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My god man. Have you learned nothing in this thread—you paid for that key fob.
Ok, the first 4 key fobs, I paid for. The 5th one is free. 8-)
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My god man. Have you learned nothing in this thread—you paid for that key fob.
Chick and glow are going to kick topper's ass.
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I bought a 3 year old minivan this spring and .. gasp .. bought the extended warranty. 5 years, $500 a year. Our last minivan (same model) .. years 5-6-7-8 were rough. Expensive things broke. We easily spent $2500 on it in its last few years, and it needed more when I dumped it.
One thing .. the minivan I was purchasing had zero warranty. If I drove it off the lot and found the sunroof was inoperable, I had zero recourse. The extended warranty had a 30 day full-refund cancellation policy .. so I figured it was a free way to get a 30 day warranty. I could cancel on Day 29 .. but I kept it.
One other bonus to the EW .. free key-fob replacement for any reason. Those damn things are $600 to replace. BOTH of my previous fobs were non-functional when got rid of the old car. I am totally getting a few new ones out of this.
You can buy fobs on the interweb and program them yourself for about $50.
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Chick and glow are going to kick topper's ass.
I broke a key fob trying to open a bottle of beer with it. Glow was not happy.
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You can buy fobs on the interweb and program them yourself for about $50.
I did search the internet .. sure, the basic fobs might be $50, but the keyless ones started at $180, and you still needed programming. There were instructions to program the regular fobs .. every hacker page I saw for the smart key said I had to go to the dealer.
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I did search the internet .. sure, the basic fobs might be $50, but the keyless ones started at $180, and you still needed programming. There were instructions to program the regular fobs .. every hacker page I saw for the smart key said I had to go to the dealer.
We just bought one for a traverse. $50, and programmed it to our car.
Son bought one from dealer for $60 from dealer and programmed it for a 2003 Tahoe.
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We just bought one for a traverse. $50, and programmed it to our car.
Son bought one from dealer for $60 from dealer and programmed it for a 2003 Tahoe.
Fob or Electric Key for Push Start?
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Fob or Electric Key for Push Start?
Fob
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I broke a key fob trying to open a bottle of beer with it. Glow was not happy.
Silly chickadee ... that's what teeth are for!
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I did search the internet .. sure, the basic fobs might be $50, but the keyless ones started at $180, and you still needed programming. There were instructions to program the regular fobs .. every hacker page I saw for the smart key said I had to go to the dealer.
Our service department needs to use what they call a "tech 2," to program your proximity remote; (it takes them about 15 minutes, and you definitely need the tool).
If you purchase the replacement key from our parts dept, our service department will program it for free.
If you bought your key from the interwebs, but bought your vehicle from me, I'll argue with service on your behalf and get it programmed for free.
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Our service department needs to use what they call a "tech 2," to program your proximity remote; (it takes them about 15 minutes, and you definitely need the tool).
If you purchase the replacement key from our parts dept, our service department will program it for free.
If you bought your key from the interwebs, but bought your vehicle from me, I'll argue with service on your behalf and get it programmed for free.
WI Inferiority is a good man. :)
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(nh), hey?
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Glow and I had a horrible experience at Russ Darrow a couple of years back.
We were looking for a specific model of used car with low miles. Darrow had advertised what we wanted at a price that was so good (we had done our homework) we had already decided that we weren't going to kill ourselves haggling. Glow confirmed the price via email with the dealership.
We get there, test drive it, and tell them we are interested. The salesperson gives us his initial price quote - $2,000 over the advertised one. When we give him the WTF look, the salesman says, "That price assumes you had a $2,000 trade-in, and since you don't..." Glow showed him our written quote, and the salesperson tried to claim that the trade-in requirement was covered under "other charges apply" or some such B.S.
Glow told him that unless he wanted us to call the Attorney General on Monday morning, he had better honor the original price. They backed down, but as punishment, they made us cool our heels in the waiting area for several hours because the business manager was "busy". We sat next to a guy that they had pulled the same "trade-in" crap on, who admitted that he caved and was paying $1500 over the quoted price.
When we finally see the business manager, he hands us an extended warranty and asks us to check the box next to the one we wanted. When we said "none", he spent a lot of time trying to tell us what a dumb decision that would be before he finally gave up. The form didn't even have an option of declining an extended warranty; he had to write it in.
After all the paperwork was completed, we sat it the waiting room waiting for them to actually bring the car around. We finally had to ask someone, "Where is our freaking car?". You know how it's traditional to drive the car up, and make a big deal about opening the doors, helping you in, showing you some basic dashboard functions? They basically threw the keys at us. All in all, we spent six full hours at the dealership for a transaction that shouldn't have taken more than an hour and a half.
We had very pleasant experiences with the purchase of several cars before that (at other dealerships) so I guess we assumed that the old-school slimy dealerships were a thing of the past. Apparently not.
I just went through a lengthy car buying process, and your experience is typical, not an exception.
I paid cash and it was 3+ hours. No way a car purchase is ever 90 minutes, unfortunately.
I went to 4 different dealers, had experiences that ranged from crapty to ridiculous. One dealer refused to not let me finance, despite telling them ahead of time I wanted to pay cash. I left on principle, even though I could have financed and paid it off right away. Another one the car had 2,000 more miles than advertised (the manager had been driving it). They knocked a whole $200 off, and wouldn't budge any further.
Car buying sucks.
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I dug up the old thread. https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52256.0 It would seem that my memory with the email/fax strategy is more optimistic than what actually happened... turns out I only had two offers in hand when I went to the dealer (I recall now that we ordered on a Friday and I received a third offer on either Saturday or Monday).
That said, I will amend and clarify my earlier sentiment... the car ordering experience couldn't have gone any smoother. The delivery of said car was a pain in the ass, both in relative and absolute terms and took waaaaayyy too long.
My template is here: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=52256.0;attach=6445 Bear in mind, this was designed for ordering a new car that dealers typically don't have on the lot, e.g. a specific combination of color, options, accessories, trim package, etc. The more general you are with your requirements, the more the template needs to be changed. Even if you're looking for something less specific but still something that most dealers don't have on the lot, if it can be "transferred" from another dealership (instead of ordered from the factory), you may not get competition in the bidding if you have a bunch of dealers offering to transfer you the same car.
However, if you truly want to go shopping, you might increase your response rate simply by specifying make, model, and either color and/or trim... you'll might get a whole slew of different responses and options to look at, but identifying the best "deal" is going to be next to impossible since you'll be comparing different versions of the same car with differing options, accessories, etc.
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I just went through a lengthy car buying process, and your experience is typical, not an exception.
I paid cash and it was 3+ hours. No way a car purchase is ever 90 minutes, unfortunately.
I went to 4 different dealers, had experiences that ranged from crapty to ridiculous. One dealer refused to not let me finance, despite telling them ahead of time I wanted to pay cash. I left on principle, even though I could have financed and paid it off right away. Another one the car had 2,000 more miles than advertised (the manager had been driving it). They knocked a whole $200 off, and wouldn't budge any further.
Car buying sucks.
Unfortunately, if we walk away from every deal "on principle," we'd never buy a car!
Seriously, I have had a couple of decent deals, although even they took too long and there still were shenanigans.