The Biggest Disappointment

[BCHoopster]

tonight I felt was Vander Blue.  I knew was not a 26 point player a few nights ago but the other games he let the game come to him.  Offensively tonight, he looked much like he did last
year taking poor shots and missing easy ones as well.  The small forward has to be able to score.  Also, Todd Mayo looked like a freshman today.  To the people who have seen Juan
Anderson in the summer, does he help this team in the future?  I hope Buzz does not keep in the dog house to long.  Time to play him.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Couldn't agree more on Juan. Vander was brutal tonight.

[kmwtrucks]

I would have liked to see more of J wilson when Vander was not hitting his stride on the off side.  Wilson seems very steady, makes the smart pass and he brings better rebounding and gives you more height when breaking the zone. 

[THEultimateWARRIOR]

0-7 from the floor pretty brutal night for Vander indeed. Maybe because the game was close? It seemed like last year when the games started getting bigger he started to fold under pressure.

Id like to see a lot more out of anderson too...

I dont mind Buzz playing Mayo as Id like to see him get more comfortable because i feel like he has the ability to have a impact on this game.

[77ncaachamps]

Our inability to break a 2-3 zone. :/

[tower912]

It was a 1-2-2

[ATWizJr]

Good to win, but any way you slice it, our expectations were higher than a 2 pt. win over a team we beat last week by 30.  Might be time to lower our expectations until proven otherwise.

[Blackhat]

I've never seen a player so hyped be so bad against decent competition from the start of his career (sans Brian Butch).

[MerrittsMustache]

Not sure if anyone noticed but Marquette won last night. It wasn't pretty but not all wins are going to be pretty. Teams are going to have bad nights against teams they should handle (Vandy, Pitt, etc). It doesn't matter how it looks, it only matters if you win. Marquette won. Period. Sure, there's room for improvement but there's been room for improvement since game 1. As I said on a different thread, MU missed a lot of easy shots last night and they also missed some wide open 3s. It's amazing how bad a team can look when shots aren't falling. If they hit a couple of those 3s and a handful of those lay-ups (like they normally would), they win by double-digits. Those shots weren't falling, but they still found a way to win, in large part because they held Norfolk to 34% shooting.

Blue is going to be fine. Yes, he took a couple ill-advised shots but he also played solid D, had 5 assists and attacked the basket. His shots just weren't falling - 3 games in 4 days will have an effect on a player.

[dw3dw3dw3]

From the tip it seemed like he thought it was his right to score 20 a night, so he had to keep shooting to get his numbers up. He took a couple of semi-contested 3's with 15 seconds left of the shot clock where I was scratching my head.  You could feel the confidence slowly get sucked out of Vander.... Buzz kept him in to let him try to handle adversity it seemed, but his head was in the gutter. This is one game and Vander will undoubtedly have some more good games in him, but the what if game is always interesting.

It will be interesting to see how long a leash Buzz gives Vander once the competition heats up. Todd has already been labeled as a defensive stopper (albeit a little smaller) and can shoot, and Jones has been ok (looked slow yesterday though), so there are other options. It's painful against the zone to see 2 of the 3 perimeter players not be threats. Whenever they were passing around the outside and it hit JC/Wilson and over to Blue it was almost like 4 wasted passes since those players weren't being aggressive (JC did have one nice penetration play).  Vander needs to play off of Jae and DJO, when those guys were out he seemed to take more responsibility to score unsuccessfully.

If Buzz starts to feel that Mayo gives them a better chance to win, I don't think any preseason expectations for a player will hold him back from making the move, long term consequences or not.

I'd like to see Vander start taking the 5-10 footer as well (ala McNeal), those drives all the way to the bucket are just going to get harder and harder. He's not particularly crafty around the rim either, I haven't seen him really pump fake ever. As a positive, he has gotten a lot better finishing one on one with a guy on his hip this year.

Again, it's one game, I'm holding out hope for Vander to have a successful turnaround on the court and in life this year, but I'm happy there are other good options waiting to get a chance too if he's not up to it.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

We looked bad for 25 minutes. Nothing to be concerned about. It may be a cliche, but I thought the travel problems may have finally caught up with us as we looked very tired. On a positive note, DJO was great

[mu03eng]

From the tip it seemed like he thought it was his right to score 20 a night, so he had to keep shooting to get his numbers up. He took a couple of semi-contested 3's with 15 seconds left of the shot clock where I was scratching my head.  You could feel the confidence slowly get sucked out of Vander.... Buzz kept him in to let him try to handle adversity it seemed, but his head was in the gutter. This is one game and Vander will undoubtedly have some more good games in him, but the what if game is always interesting.

It will be interesting to see how long a leash Buzz gives Vander once the competition heats up. Todd has already been labeled as a defensive stopper (albeit a little smaller) and can shoot, and Jones has been ok (looked slow yesterday though), so there are other options. It's painful against the zone to see 2 of the 3 perimeter players not be threats. Whenever they were passing around the outside and it hit JC/Wilson and over to Blue it was almost like 4 wasted passes since those players weren't being aggressive (JC did have one nice penetration play).  Vander needs to play off of Jae and DJO, when those guys were out he seemed to take more responsibility to score unsuccessfully.

If Buzz starts to feel that Mayo gives them a better chance to win, I don't think any preseason expectations for a player will hold him back from making the move, long term consequences or not.

I'd like to see Vander start taking the 5-10 footer as well (ala McNeal), those drives all the way to the bucket are just going to get harder and harder. He's not particularly crafty around the rim either, I haven't seen him really pump fake ever. As a positive, he has gotten a lot better finishing one on one with a guy on his hip this year.

Again, it's one game, I'm holding out hope for Vander to have a successful turnaround on the court and in life this year, but I'm happy there are other good options waiting to get a chance too if he's not up to it.

I completely disagree, I think Vander was trying to get his offense within the context of what the team was doing.  I really only remember one jacked three but I thought it was with 10 or less on shot clock and relatively close to when NFSU switched to the zone.

Just like his 26 points was one game I think this was just one game.  I think he will settled in very nicely over the next couple of weeks.

[MUMac]

From the tip it seemed like he thought it was his right to score 20 a night, so he had to keep shooting to get his numbers up. He took a couple of semi-contested 3's with 15 seconds left of the shot clock where I was scratching my head.  You could feel the confidence slowly get sucked out of Vander.... Buzz kept him in to let him try to handle adversity it seemed, but his head was in the gutter. This is one game and Vander will undoubtedly have some more good games in him, but the what if game is always interesting.

It will be interesting to see how long a leash Buzz gives Vander once the competition heats up. Todd has already been labeled as a defensive stopper (albeit a little smaller) and can shoot, and Jones has been ok (looked slow yesterday though), so there are other options. It's painful against the zone to see 2 of the 3 perimeter players not be threats. Whenever they were passing around the outside and it hit JC/Wilson and over to Blue it was almost like 4 wasted passes since those players weren't being aggressive (JC did have one nice penetration play).  Vander needs to play off of Jae and DJO, when those guys were out he seemed to take more responsibility to score unsuccessfully.

If Buzz starts to feel that Mayo gives them a better chance to win, I don't think any preseason expectations for a player will hold him back from making the move, long term consequences or not.

I'd like to see Vander start taking the 5-10 footer as well (ala McNeal), those drives all the way to the bucket are just going to get harder and harder. He's not particularly crafty around the rim either, I haven't seen him really pump fake ever. As a positive, he has gotten a lot better finishing one on one with a guy on his hip this year.

Again, it's one game, I'm holding out hope for Vander to have a successful turnaround on the court and in life this year, but I'm happy there are other good options waiting to get a chance too if he's not up to it.

Sometimes I wonder if I am watching the same game as some of you.  A couple of semi contested 3's?  REally.  Wow, I wonder if some of the critics on this board have ever played the game.

This bashing is becoming a joke.  I expected more out of MU basketball fans than I have witnessed.  Pretty pathetic bunch we have!~

[GGGG]

It will be interesting to see how long a leash Buzz gives Vander once the competition heats up. Todd has already been labeled as a defensive stopper (albeit a little smaller) and can shoot, and Jones has been ok (looked slow yesterday though), so there are other options.

Here is the problem I have with Mayo...one on one, he can defend.  However, he is late with his rotations and not in place.  He has a ways to go before he understands the team defense that Buzz wants.  Outside of the brain fart at the end of the first half, Vander is generally in the right place and makes the right switches.  He is a much better within the team defensive scheme.

And yeah, his offense was bad.  However at the end of the game he had a key steal and a key assist.  Last year, Vander would have gone in a shell and would have been useless.  This game he faught through it and contributed when his team needed him.

And I don't know what to think about Jones.  He can shoot, but he doesn't seem to have any dribble game at all.  He's a decent defender.  Mayo I think is going to play more than him simply because of his total offensive game.

The problem that we have is that we are having from a shooting perspective is that we haven't been able to replace DB and JFB on that end of the floor.  

[GGGG]

Couldn't agree more on Juan. Vander was brutal tonight.

Juan isn't in the doghouse.  Juan hasn't been able to practice fully because of injury.  The idea that people want to see more Juan and less Vander is silly.  Especially since the guy who knows these players better than anyone (Buzz) doesn't seem to agree with you.

[MUMac]

Juan isn't in the doghouse.  Juan hasn't been able to practice fully because of injury.  The idea that people want to see more Juan and less Vander is silly.  Especially since the guy who knows these players better than anyone (Buzz) doesn't seem to agree with you.

The best players are the back ups we never see or those who just graduated.  Otherwise everyone else is criticised.  The back up QB is ALWAYS better than the starting QB, because no body see's them play.  You mentioned it yesterday in another thread.  Now we are concerned about replacing Butler's leadership when last year many of these same "experts" were critical of his lack of leadership.

I am really perplexed by all the criticism levied at this team and these players for one game - a win at that.  The comments from the "expert" coaches on this board on who should play, who should not.  None have seen a practice, yet they know best.  Embarassing, really.

[mu03eng]

Here is the problem I have with Mayo...one on one, he can defend.  However, he is late with his rotations and not in place.  He has a ways to go before he understands the team defense that Buzz wants.  Outside of the brain fart at the end of the first half, Vander is generally in the right place and makes the right switches.  He is a much better within the team defensive scheme.

And yeah, his offense was bad.  However at the end of the game he had a key steal and a key assist.  Last year, Vander would have gone in a shell and would have been useless.  This game he faught through it and contributed when his team needed him.

And I don't know what to think about Jones.  He can shoot, but he doesn't seem to have any dribble game at all.  He's a decent defender.  Mayo I think is going to play more than him simply because of his total offensive game.

The problem that we have is that we are having from a shooting perspective is that we haven't been able to replace DB and JFB on that end of the floor.  

I also think a couple of his lay ups would have normally gone in, plus near the end of the game he was one of the few players that attacked the rim and was able to get there through the zone and just couldn't get the shot to fall.  The stat sheet doesn't do his effort justice.  Again not a good game by Vander on the offensive end but not nearly as bad as all the chicken littles seem to think

[mu03eng]

The best players are the back ups we never see or those who just graduated.  Otherwise everyone else is criticised.  The back up QB is ALWAYS better than the starting QB, because no body see's them play.  You mentioned it yesterday in another thread.  Now we are concerned about replacing Butler's leadership when last year many of these same "experts" were critical of his lack of leadership.

I am really perplexed by all the criticism levied at this team and these players for one game - a win at that.  The comments from the "expert" coaches on this board on who should play, who should not.  None have seen a practice, yet they know best.  Embarassing, really.

Someone is going to have to explain the phenomenon of people flocking to the message board to bash the hell out of the team when they lose or have close wins, but when we win big or win a good game the amount of users is much lower and the number of posts are much less.  Drives me nuts, makes me think we have a whole bunch of masochists that love to lose.

[MUMac]

I also think a couple of his lay ups would have normally gone in, plus near the end of the game he was one of the few players that attacked the rim and was able to get there through the zone and just couldn't get the shot to fall.  The stat sheet doesn't do his effort justice.  Again not a good game by Vander on the offensive end but not nearly as bad as all the chicken littles seem to think

Agree completely.  He had a few roll off.  Yes, a couple the defense came over, but where is anyone else trying to get spacing to get open?  Didn't see it.  They were standing and watching.

Heck, some were complaining about his two missed 3's.  Really?  One was a similar play to a 3 that Jones missed earlier in the half (1st).  Vander's shot actually looked better than Jones when comparing those plays.  Both, though, were the shots to take.

Many of the same people constantly complained about McNeal for similar things.  He kept attacking and worked it out.  I do expect similar transition from Vander.

One poor shooting night and all these "fans" attack.  Gee, I wonder why they aren't coaching themselves.  

[MerrittsMustache]

Someone is going to have to explain the phenomenon of people flocking to the message board to bash the hell out of the team when they lose or have close wins, but when we win big or win a good game the amount of users is much lower and the number of posts are much less.  Drives me nuts, makes me think we have a whole bunch of masochists that love to lose.

If a person has a good customer service experience they'll tell one person about it. If they have a bad experience they'll tell 10 people about it.

Similarly, if MU beats a no-name by 30 points, it gets a collective yawn. If MU beats a no-name by 2 points, the sky is falling and there are all kinds of problems with the team. I've heard several sportswriters say that their job is a lot easier when their teams are bad because it's much easier to find things to talk about.

[MerrittsMustache]

The best players are the back ups we never see or those who just graduated.  Otherwise everyone else is criticised.  The back up QB is ALWAYS better than the starting QB, because no body see's them play. 

+1

The old joke was that the most popular athlete in Chicago was the Bears back-up QB.

[NersEllenson]

If a person has a good customer service experience they'll tell one person about it. If they have a bad experience they'll tell 10 people about it.

Similarly, if MU beats a no-name by 30 points, it gets a collective yawn. If MU beats a no-name by 2 points, the sky is falling and there are all kinds of problems with the team. I've heard several sportswriters say that their job is a lot easier when their teams are bad because it's much easier to find things to talk about.

 What he said....Hell even some of the national pundits were discussing the chinks in Green Bay's armor due to Tampa playing them close.  

It wasn't a pretty game last night, we didn't play well, but we got the "W."  I still liked what I saw out of Mayo, Jamail Jones, Derrick Wilson - and Vander and Jamil to an extent.  Vander had a few shots not fall for him - no need to pile on the guy today.  Jamil is still finding himself it seems.  I thought Jones looked pretty good/active/aggressive.  I love Todd Mayo's game..he'll be big for MU this year...book it.  D Wilson is a VERY solid backup freshman PG.  Juan will get his chance.

[dw3dw3dw3]

Let's all talk coach speak from now on so not to upset anyone. It's a message board for voicing opinions. My opinion is Vander played bad and forced a lot of stuff. Vander should absolutely not be shooting threes within the context of the offense or anytime there is more than 8 seconds on the shot clock.  He is a horrible shooter period. If he keeps shooting 3's at his current clip for the season (3/8), he will undoubtedly have had some help from Tebow. He has played to what should be expected in 3 out of 5 games. He had one horrible game and one off the charts game.

Also, there is plenty of chatter when there is a win versus a top 25 opponent. Winning cupcakes isn't that interesting and hard to garner opinions about. Count the posts after the Syracuse win last year.

You can be a "fan" and think a player is bad or had a bad game or made poor decisions... it's ok, really!

Also, backup players on MU actually have game time experience so you can compare them to starters. It's not a backup QB thought. Mayo vs Vander will be a decision that Buzz will have to make a lot this year depending on different situations.

[muwarrior69]

The biggest disappointment was that they took Norfolk for granted and did not take them as a serious competitor. Never under estimate the opposition. When Norfolk went into the zone we all could see they were not prepared for that. They also took away our transition game and did not adjust to that as well. Hopefully they will learn from this. However, I like ugly wins over a heart break loss. I think this game experience bodes well for the UW game just ahead.

[jsglow]

+1

The old joke was that the most popular athlete in Chicago was the Bears back-up QB.

Crap.  I guess that means that the Bears are headed to the Superbowl now!  No way Rodgers can compete.

[MUMac]

Let's all talk coach speak from now on so not to upset anyone. It's a message board for voicing opinions. My opinion is Vander played bad and forced a lot of stuff. Vander should absolutely not be shooting threes within the context of the offense or anytime there is more than 8 seconds on the shot clock.  He is a horrible shooter period. If he keeps shooting 3's at his current clip for the season (3/8), he will undoubtedly have had some help from Tebow. He has played to what should be expected in 3 out of 5 games. He had one horrible game and one off the charts game.

Also, there is plenty of chatter when there is a win versus a top 25 opponent. Winning cupcakes isn't that interesting and hard to garner opinions about. Count the posts after the Syracuse win last year.

You can be a "fan" and think a player is bad or had a bad game or made poor decisions... it's ok, really!

Also, backup players on MU actually have game time experience so you can compare them to starters. It's not a backup QB thought. Mayo vs Vander will be a decision that Buzz will have to make a lot this year depending on different situations.

A little sensitive when someone levels criticism at you, no?  Give it, then take it my friend.  Your posts were definitely some that I was referencing.  I truly suspect your understanding of basketball is limited, but your ability to whine and criticize is unlimited.

[GGGG]

Let's all talk coach speak from now on so not to upset anyone. It's a message board for voicing opinions. My opinion is Vander played bad and forced a lot of stuff. Vander should absolutely not be shooting threes within the context of the offense or anytime there is more than 8 seconds on the shot clock.  He is a horrible shooter period. If he keeps shooting 3's at his current clip for the season (3/8), he will undoubtedly have had some help from Tebow.

You do realize that 3/8, or 37.5%, would have made him the second most accurate three point shooter on last year's team...behind only Buycks.

Yeah, that's a better percentage than DJO, Jae, JFB, etc. shot last year.  I guess Buzz should have told them not to shoot "in the context of the offense" last year either.  Damn DJO for winning that game against Syracuse...didn't he know that he was only shooting 36.4% from three and therefore had no business shooting???

[nycwarrior]

This week a new study showed that one in five American adults now takes psychotic drugs to manage their mental health.

After reading this board for a few days you'd have to wonder whether some of our posters are on too many or too few meds.

On the crazy positive side we've got one of the greatest posters in the deep history of the interwebs - our very own bamamarquettefan - posting stuff about how elite we are while we're still knee deep in Little Sisters if the Poor season. Bama - I always want to read everything you write but look what you're doing to the mentally ill of suburban Milwaukee.

On the other side we've got a kid in Vanderbilt Blue who has shown a lot of improvement over the first few games and now we've got a significant number of serious fans ready to give up on him?

The take away on Vander after this one? Bad game for most of the team and during the 25-minute funk, he wasn't the one who pulled us out. However, in the end we LOSE this game without the mid-court steal and heads up assist to Crowder for the break-away.

The kid was down for a long time and he came back with a heads up play that won the game. That shows maturity and toughness in my opinion.

We won. Let's work on our press break and zone offense and help Jamil Wilson to find a significant role. We need his size, strength, skill set to do some rebounding in traffic where we still look a but slow.

Even to the heavily medicated.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

When we went to the tournament last year, I'm pretty sure no one was talking about how craptily we played against UWM.

Season checklist
(x) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (sky falls on Scoop)
( ) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (more sky-falling)
( ) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish

[Golden Avalanche]

tonight I felt was Vander Blue.  I knew was not a 26 point player a few nights ago but the other games he let the game come to him.  Offensively tonight, he looked much like he did last
year taking poor shots and missing easy ones as well.  The small forward has to be able to score.  Also, Todd Mayo looked like a freshman today.  To the people who have seen Juan
Anderson in the summer, does he help this team in the future?  I hope Buzz does not keep in the dog house to long.  Time to play him.

In the context of the game, yeah, Vander was a disappointment. He'd agree with you. But he did what he always does (attack the rim) and tonight it was some bad luck that he had three lay-ins roll out. He gets those down and no one notices his performance.

Overall, I think Vander has been a revelation. I'm not nearly as queasy as last season when he attacks. The game will come to him. He's played 40 times in a career that should see 100 more opportunities. Looks to me like a normal progression of a Sophomore.

As for Mayo, agree he was bad tonight. The game seemed out of sync but as a Freshman I'd expect it to be that way. Just because his first couple were good doesn't mean we should suddenly expect a pure 12 from him every night.

Finally, on Juan, Sultan nails the point. Why do people believe he's in the doghouse? There is no basis for that claim at this time. He's got a lot going against him: 1) He's a Freshman; 2) He was injured in training camp; 3) He was suspended to start the season; 4) Buzz is playing every single guy on the roster.

Add all that up and it's not like Juan has a right to the rotation minutes. He must earn that privilege. Besides, I'm not so sure Juan would have been the secret key to break down that match-up amoeba crap that Evans threw at Marquette. It confounded 10 of our kids, why wouldn't it confound the 11th?

[mu03eng]

Let's all talk coach speak from now on so not to upset anyone. It's a message board for voicing opinions. My opinion is Vander played bad and forced a lot of stuff. Vander should absolutely not be shooting threes within the context of the offense or anytime there is more than 8 seconds on the shot clock.  He is a horrible shooter period. If he keeps shooting 3's at his current clip for the season (3/8), he will undoubtedly have had some help from Tebow. He has played to what should be expected in 3 out of 5 games. He had one horrible game and one off the charts game.

Also, there is plenty of chatter when there is a win versus a top 25 opponent. Winning cupcakes isn't that interesting and hard to garner opinions about. Count the posts after the Syracuse win last year.

You can be a "fan" and think a player is bad or had a bad game or made poor decisions... it's ok, really!

Also, backup players on MU actually have game time experience so you can compare them to starters. It's not a backup QB thought. Mayo vs Vander will be a decision that Buzz will have to make a lot this year depending on different situations.

I have zero issue with sharing your opinion.  I happen to think your dead wrong but thats the point of a message board, however what I object to is the hyperbole that serves no purpose other than to rile others up.  At the end of the day you expressed your opinion, I expressed mine that I thought you were wrong and now you play oh this is a message board its for opinions card.  Defend your opinion or move on

[bilsu]

First of all the difference between a good season and a bad season is who wins the close games. Two years ago we won three overtime games in a row on the road, which made it be a good season. Lose two out of those three and it was a bad season. Losing one of them probably would have cost us an NCCA bid. So far we are 1-0 in close games and that is a big positive. Second of all, if you believe Buzz, almost all of MU's practices are spent on defense, which means we have not practiced a zone offense. Remember we beat Syracuse both games last year and therefore I am not worried about us being able to handle a zone. Also, I do believe a close game like this, especially after we previously blew them out, allows Buzz to refocus the team. So those are the positives. The negatives I saw was DJO choking on a critical free throw, which he has repeatedly done in his career. Blue did force a lot of shots and reminded me of last years Blue. Blue has to remember he is an open court player and should not be trying to drive against a zone. Jamil Wilson fouls too much to be an effective player. At the start of the second half, it seemed like our passing went down hill resulting in several turnovers. I think the team ran out of gas. Before the season started I thought we be good this year and better next year. So far DJO and Crowder have been so good this year, I do not see how we can be better next year without them.

[MerrittsMustache]

Crap.  I guess that means that the Bears are headed to the Superbowl now!  No way Rodgers can compete.

Actually, Hanie is the starter now so if he has a clunker in Oakland, rookie 5th-rounder Nathan Enderle will become incredibly popular.

[tower912]

The biggest disappointment I had, and maybe this will be addressed as they install a zone offense, was when TFON had position on the low block, with his defender behind him, and the wing would look at him for a nano-second and then throw the ball back to the top of the key.   I'm not one of those guys with a man-crush on DG, but when your low block scorer has position, and the guy defending him wants to avoid fouling out, give him the ball.     Also, get the ball to the foul line against the 1-2-2.   Jae, DJO, it doesn't matter.    But we won, and learned how to win a tight game without a real zone offense.   

[Silkk the Shaka]

The biggest disappointment I had, and maybe this will be addressed as they install a zone offense, was when TFON had position on the low block, with his defender behind him, and the wing would look at him for a nano-second and then throw the ball back to the top of the key.   I'm not one of those guys with a man-crush on DG, but when your low block scorer has position, and the guy defending him wants to avoid fouling out, give him the ball.     Also, get the ball to the foul line against the 1-2-2.   Jae, DJO, it doesn't matter.    But we won, and learned how to win a tight game without a real zone offense.   

This was the biggest problem I had with Crean's zone offense - no one EVER flashed to the middle, which is the easiest way to beat a zone.  Finally when Buzz took over Matthews started flashing to the FT line and we were no longer perplexed by zone defenses.  Hayward took over that mantle the following year, with Butler doing the same last year.  It's early in the season, so I doubt we've even addressed the zone offense but this has worked well in the past under Buzz so I see no reason to worry it won't continue this season.  I bet Crowder will take over that duty this year, and I bet we'll see that wrinkle added by the next time we see a zone.

[dw3dw3dw3]

I don't think I said anything to rile people up... "Buzz should be fired" or "I hope Vander transfers" would be a hyperbole used to rile people up.  I stated Vander can't shoot, which I'm pretty sure most people would agree with even though it's an opinion. Vander has had one bad game, 3 decent games, and one great game all against lower conference opponents. If Vander continues to shoot at his current clip of 37% from 3, I would be amazed and think there would be other powers at work. My "defense" for this is that he shot 16% from 3 last year and while there is a subtle change in his shot, it in no way is something that a team should be counting on after rotating the ball to the opposite side. Sultan are you saying that you like Vander shooting 3's as part of the offense? If you do that's fine, but I just think: A. his percentage will come way down with increased competition and a larger sample size B. There's a higher percentage shot to be had by someone else.   

I want Vander to succeed on the court and in life, it's better for MU to have a success story transforming someone rather than the alternative.  That being said, Buzz has a lot of options this year and it will be interesting to see how they play out. If Vander can't be effective going to the hoop against more competitive teams, will Buzz choose to go with the smaller Mayo or Jones or JA? Each player has their pluses and minuses, Mayo struggled a bit yesterday as well and got lost on defense a few times. I think Vander as the 3/4 option with Jae, DJO, CO/DG on the floor will be where he is most effective, attacking the rim with the overplay on the other guys. When Jae or DJO aren't in, in my opinion, TM becomes a better better 1st or 2nd offensive wing option in those situations. However with DJO and Jae in, I think we get too small with TM as the 3rd guard.
 

[GGGG]

Sultan are you saying that you like Vander shooting 3's as part of the offense? If you do that's fine, but I just think: A. his percentage will come way down with increased competition and a larger sample size B. There's a higher percentage shot to be had by someone else. 

You brought up 3/8, and made a lame Tebow reference, without looking up the fact that 3/8 is actually a fairly decent percentage given last year as a comparison.

But I agree that it will likely drop and I would agree that Vander shooting a bunch of threes shouldn't be a major part of the offense.  However I don't mind if he shoots a couple a game within the flow.

[dw3dw3dw3]

I guess I was trying to say if he kept up shooting 37% it would be a miracle. Sorry if you are already tired of Tebowmania, but I happen to think it's good TV, a mix between reality TV and sports. I do understand 37% is a good percentage.

The one thing I love about Buzz coached teams is we very rarely have guys heat checking themselves without actually being hot. I hate watching Florida, Memphis and other teams who don't seem to know the value of a high percentage possession. Recruits think we are a run and gun team they want to play for, but in actuality we seem closer to Wisconsin than Kentucky if we don't have it on the break.

[Canadian Dimes]

tonight I felt was Vander Blue.  I knew was not a 26 point player a few nights ago but the other games he let the game come to him.  Offensively tonight, he looked much like he did last
year taking poor shots and missing easy ones as well.  The small forward has to be able to score.  Also, Todd Mayo looked like a freshman today.  To the people who have seen Juan
Anderson in the summer, does he help this team in the future?  I hope Buzz does not keep in the dog house to long.  Time to play him.

Actually the biggest disappointment is your post.  yes Vander struggled tonite.  My guess is becuase you call yourself "hoopster" you were the star every night?

"Time to let him play"   hmmm another disappointment by the "hoopster"   Lets see a kid who spends half of his 1st 15 practices ever in collge in a boot and then has to sit out 3 games and has 2 minutes of collge playing experience should be in a 1 possesion championship game? 

You post is by far my biggest disappointment. 

Are u drunk?  I hope so.

[Canadian Dimes]

Sometimes I wonder if I am watching the same game as some of you.  A couple of semi contested 3's?  REally.  Wow, I wonder if some of the critics on this board have ever played the game.

This bashing is becoming a joke.  I expected more out of MU basketball fans than I have witnessed.  Pretty pathetic bunch we have!~

+1 Very well said ...the basketball IQ of this board is 0

[Dawson Rental]

When we went to the tournament last year, I'm pretty sure no one was talking about how craptily we played against UWM.

Season checklist
(x) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (sky falls on Scoop)
( ) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (more sky-falling)
( ) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish

A top-half Big East finish would have been nice last year.  We finished in a three way tie for ninth, and were seeded eleventh in the Big East tourney.

[Big Papi]

I am not very disappointed in how the game played out yesterday so for me there is no real "Biggest Disappointment".  

Reasons why:  
1. Seems to be a quite a few upsets this year and last I looked we haven't lost yet
2. The team has concentrated on the defense end in practice and probably have not practiced much if at all on a zone offense.  That will improve as the year goes on
3.  Out of the 10 that played minutes yesterday, 3 of them have now played in only 4 games at MU and Jamail Jones played very limited minutes last year.  There will be growing pains this year as there is every year.
4.  I have read a lot of comments on multiple boards that the team overlooked Norfolk State.  I think a lot of fans overlooked Norfolk State.  They are not a horrible team.  They have talent and would not have reached the finals if they were a bad team.  Playing them twice within a week makes for interesting games.
5. This game will make the team better.  A little adversity is a good thing and to still win the game is a very good thing.

Overall, we are still a very good team that will beat A LOT of teams this year.

[Dawson Rental]

Actually, Hanie is the starter now so if he has a clunker in Oakland, rookie 5th-rounder Nathan Enderle will become incredibly popular.

Cutler's injury was really a bad break for Enderle, no more partying on Saturday night and showing up Sunday assured that he'll be inactive.

[ringout]

It's time to give up on the myth that Vander had a terrible freshman year.  

If you play as much as he did as a freshman, you earned your PT.  Buzz will not put a guy on the floor who doesn't earn it.  What is the reason most freshman don't play a lot?  DEFENSE.  Freshman earn PT by playing defense, mostly.

Were his offensive warts showing?  Sure they were.    

Vander will be a great Warrior.  Wait and see.

[Henry Sugar]

It's time to give up on the myth that Vander had a terrible freshman year.  

You're kidding, right?

[Canadian Dimes]

First of all the difference between a good season and a bad season is who wins the close games. Two years ago we won three overtime games in a row on the road, which made it be a good season. Lose two out of those three and it was a bad season. Losing one of them probably would have cost us an NCCA bid. So far we are 1-0 in close games and that is a big positive. Second of all, if you believe Buzz, almost all of MU's practices are spent on defense, which means we have not practiced a zone offense. Remember we beat Syracuse both games last year and therefore I am not worried about us being able to handle a zone. Also, I do believe a close game like this, especially after we previously blew them out, allows Buzz to refocus the team. So those are the positives. The negatives I saw was DJO choking on a critical free throw, which he has repeatedly done in his career. Blue did force a lot of shots and reminded me of last years Blue. Blue has to remember he is an open court player and should not be trying to drive against a zone. Jamil Wilson fouls too much to be an effective player. At the start of the second half, it seemed like our passing went down hill resulting in several turnovers. I think the team ran out of gas. Before the season started I thought we be good this year and better next year. So far DJO and Crowder have been so good this year, I do not see how we can be better next year without them.

I said it earlier and i really think the collective basketball IQ of this board is about 0.0.  Just becuase people watch basketball does not mean they know anything about the game.

the statement " Blue did force a lot of shots and reminded me of last years Blue. Blue has to remember he is an open court player and should not be trying to drive against a zone."  

I mean really??  Seriously??  If the guards are not trying to attack gaps with the drive in a zone they should not be on the court.  vander is a pretty good driver of the ball ... he on a number of occasions was able to attack gaps and get to the rim.  The guy missed some F'ing layups last night and every idiot fan that has zero basketball IQ wants to rip him.  

So my question would be should we then have aplayer who lacks the ability to attack gaps out there or what?   I mean these comments are stupid.   I thought Vnader played quite well.  great passing, great defense, the guy missed some contested layups attacking a zone.  Anyone that has ever coached or played the game knows that you keep attacking and the percentage of those layups will even out over time.  Vander played well last night anyone coming on here saying differently only exposes themselves as a stupid no IQ basketball observer.

[Dawson Rental]

a)First of all the difference between a good season and a bad season is who wins the close games. Two years ago we won three overtime games in a row on the road, which made it be a good season. Lose two out of those three and it was a bad season. Losing one of them probably would have cost us an NCCA bid. So far we are 1-0 in close games and that is a big positive.
b)Second of all, if you believe Buzz, almost all of MU's practices are spent on defense, which means we have not practiced a zone offense. Remember we beat Syracuse both games last year and therefore I am not worried about us being able to handle a zone.
c)Also, I do believe a close game like this, especially after we previously blew them out, allows Buzz to refocus the team. So those are the positives.
d)The negatives I saw was DJO choking on a critical free throw, which he has repeatedly done in his career.
e)Blue did force a lot of shots and reminded me of last years Blue. Blue has to remember he is an open court player and should not be trying to drive against a zone.
f)Jamil Wilson fouls too much to be an effective player.
g)At the start of the second half, it seemed like our passing went down hill resulting in several turnovers. I think the team ran out of gas.
h)Before the season started I thought we be good this year and better next year. So far DJO and Crowder have been so good this year, I do not see how we can be better next year without them.

a) +1
b) Exact-a-mundo
c) very true
d) Unfortunately, I thought that very thing, too.  In fact, according to Buzz's postgame interview, DJO realized it too, and was bummed out about it which hopefully will remedy the situation.
e) Honestly, I don't consider myself qualified to agree/disagree, but you're on a roll, so I buy it.
f) Jae's problem from last year from which he has shown solid improvement.  Hopefully, Jamil learns to deal with it too.
g) Possibly true, but I find it hard to believe since Norfolk State who was the opponent has played the same amount of games for the last eight days, has less depth, and I believe that MU is in solid shape, conditioning wise.  I'm putting it down to confused by the zone, having not prepared for one yet in this year's practices.
h) Good point.  But, we might get surprised by a jump in performance from someone next year to equal Jae's big move forward this year.

[Dawson Rental]

Actually the biggest disappointment is your post.  yes Vander struggled tonite.  My guess is becuase you call yourself "hoopster" you were the star every night?

"Time to let him play"   hmmm another disappointment by the "hoopster"   Lets see a kid who spends half of his 1st 15 practices ever in collge in a boot and then has to sit out 3 games and has 2 minutes of collge playing experience should be in a 1 possesion championship game? 

You post is by far my biggest disappointment. 

Are u drunk?  I hope so.

COMPLETELY, TOTALLY UNNECESSARY

[MUMac]

g) Possibly true, but I find it hard to believe since Norfolk State who was the opponent has played the same amount of games for the last eight days, has less depth, and I believe that MU is in solid shape, conditioning wise.  I'm putting it down to confused by the zone, having not prepared for one yet in this year's practices.

I did not think MU was tired or looked tired.  I do think two factors hurt MU.  The first was going up 16 early against a team MU blew out a week early.  They seemed to get complacent a bit.  Couple that with O'Quinn going out, which leads to number two. 

With O'Quinn out, NFSU went zone to protect themselves until he returned.  Had he not been in foul trouble, I wonder if NFSU would have gone zone at all.  He is known as a shot blocker.  Without him in there, they needed to clog up the middle from our guards penetration.

With O'Quinn out, NFSU now playing zone and MU up 16, MU got out of their offense.  I don't think they were taking bad shots, but missing them.  That caused some forcing of the action.  Blue, Cadougan, DJO and Mayo all got caught up in forcging the ball to the hoop.

[mu03eng]

g) Possibly true, but I find it hard to believe since Norfolk State who was the opponent has played the same amount of games for the last eight days, has less depth, and I believe that MU is in solid shape, conditioning wise.  I'm putting it down to confused by the zone, having not prepared for one yet in this year's practices.

I agree with you Murs, I don't think they were tired, I didn't see any lack of hustle when required like at the end of the game with Vander's steal and Jae and Junior diving to the floor for loose balls.

I think the zone played with their heads, instead of playing instinctively they had to think about everything.  Not a reflection on their intelligence but when you are playing at that high a level and have to think about things too much you slow down at everything almost as if you don't have enough brain power to do it all.  As a result you saw some less than crisp passing and dribbling resulting in uncharacteristic TOs.  You could almost see the gears grinding with the players.  Get them more practice time and exposure to a zone and they won't look like that again.

[bilsu]

Maybe they were not physically tired, but comming out in the second half their passes were not precise. 5 foot passes were getting stolen. Their passes did not seem sharp to me. Physically tired, mentally tired or just not in the game, you can mkae you own determination. They also did not force many turnovers, especially after 10 minutes of game time. Turnovers is what fuels their fast break. Just like the steal with about a minute to go that Crowder scored the winning basket on.

[bilsu]

I said it earlier and i really think the collective basketball IQ of this board is about 0.0.  Just becuase people watch basketball does not mean they know anything about the game.

the statement " Blue did force a lot of shots and reminded me of last years Blue. Blue has to remember he is an open court player and should not be trying to drive against a zone."  

I mean really??  Seriously??  If the guards are not trying to attack gaps with the drive in a zone they should not be on the court.  vander is a pretty good driver of the ball ... he on a number of occasions was able to attack gaps and get to the rim.  The guy missed some F'ing layups last night and every idiot fan that has zero basketball IQ wants to rip him.  

So my question would be should we then have aplayer who lacks the ability to attack gaps out there or what?   I mean these comments are stupid.   I thought Vnader played quite well.  great passing, great defense, the guy missed some contested layups attacking a zone.  Anyone that has ever coached or played the game knows that you keep attacking and the percentage of those layups will even out over time.  Vander played well last night anyone coming on here saying differently only exposes themselves as a stupid no IQ basketball observer.

I never said he should not attack the gaps. He should not drive in and force a shot up when the shot blocker is there. When he has the guy beat than he should shoot. He also should not shoot threes unless he is completely open.

[Canadian Dimes]

I never said he should not attack the gaps. He should not drive in and force a shot up when the shot blocker is there. When he has the guy beat than he should shoot. He also should not shoot threes unless he is completely open.

As a coach mself that stresses shot selection on a daily basis, i felt Vander took one quick three in the first half that i was not crazy about.  His others shots were good shots most of which were inside 2 feet and simply did not fall.  And as a coach I would have told him to keep taking those shots and stay agressive, in film on the three i would have told him we can get a better shot than that.

[PGsHeroes32]

Im going to avoid the Vander argument for a minute, but putting the missed free throw blame on DJO is foolish. Has he missed some big ones? Yes, I remember USF last year for one. But I remember over the last few years our WHOLE team has struggled to hit late freebies......even Zar who shot them at 80%.

People conviently forget the free throws against Uconn two years ago where DJO had to make all 3. That was the win that turned that season around. If he "misses big free throws like he always does" who the hell knows where our program is at currently.

[MUMac]

As a coach mself that stresses shot selection on a daily basis, i felt Vander took one quick three in the first half that i was not crazy about.  His others shots were good shots most of which were inside 2 feet and simply did not fall.  And as a coach I would have told him to keep taking those shots and stay agressive, in film on the three i would have told him we can get a better shot than that.

I agree.  That 2nd 3 he took was the wrong shot, wrong time.  The first 3 was the right shot.  If he passed it up, I would have been critical (as a coach).  In the corner, the flow of the ball was for that shot.  Jones took one earlier, and missed.  Still, that is the right shot at that time.

I thought he forced a drive or two.  On the other hand, so did DJO, Junior, Mayo, Crowder ...  You have to be careful with over coaching.  Point it out in film, but you don't want to take away too much of their aggressiveness, as that is what makes the team.

[ringout]

You're kidding, right?

I can't compete with you on a offensive efficiency basis.  Vander got PT the only way Buzz gives it to freshman, by playing defense. 

You cannot say he had a terrible season when he played in every game as a freshman.  If he sucked he would have gotten splinters like JJ.

[lab_warrior]

Season checklist
(x) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (sky falls on Scoop)
( ) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (more sky-falling)
( ) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish

That is great hustle.  Well done, sir.