NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[#UnleashSean]

Which means pretty much ZERO.

Except that without Rodgers the team has ZERO chance to do anything.

[Jockey]

Which means pretty much ZERO.

Actually, it means one of two things.

1. TT isn't drafting any impact players.
              or
2. TT is drafting good players, but coaches are incapable of coaching them.

In order, I would place the blame 1) Capers, 2) TT, 3) MM

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Just like nobody's ever really been worried about the Vikings...well, ever.

Wades, you might just have to watch a few games outside of the packers. I know it asks a lot but gosh the Vikings are purdy good.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Except that without Rodgers the team has ZERO chance to do anything.

Clearly isn't upset about missing the playoffs. I mean not upset at alllllllllllll

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

i realize now I have a lot of fury towards the bear management so I'll let the experts fall on the sword for the year. Mudish, keep up the good work

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

nm

[#UnleashSean]

i realize now I have a lot of fury towards the bear management so I'll let the experts fall on the sword for the year. Mudish, keep up the good work

You mean you didn't think it was a great idea to trade up 1 draft slot for a player the team ahead of you wasn't ever going to pick anyways?

[wadesworld]

Clearly isn't upset about missing the playoffs. I mean not upset at alllllllllllll

Or it means I don’t put a whole lot of stock into a game that you can get invited to based on a fan vote?

The Pro Bowl means absolutely nothing. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler for goodness sakes. But yeah let’s freak out that the Packers didn’t have any players make the Pro Bowl.

I get that as a Bears fan you don’t get much else to cheer about other than your players playing a meaningless scrimmage that I wouldn’t even call football, but for fans of a team that actually has a chance to do something year in and year out how many Pro Bowlers your team has is entirely meaningless.

But sure. We’ll go with the bitter about missing the Playoffs for the first time in 9 years when our HOF QB missed half the season. Makes sense.

[MerrittsMustache]

Kyle Long played in 10 games and was named a second alternate for the Pro Bowl. Akiem Hicks has been a dominant force on the defensive line all season and was named a fourth alternate.

In summary, don't read too much into Pro Bowl selections.

[WarriorInNYC]

The Pro Bowl means absolutely nothing. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler for goodness sakes. But yeah let’s freak out that the Packers didn’t have any players make the Pro Bowl.

I don't exactly agree with this, I think we as fans, and the media end up giving too much credit for making the Pro Bowl because half of the players that make it, don't end up playing in it and thus others get in.

For example, you mention Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler, and if you visit his wikipedia page, it confirms that.  And you'll probably hear that repeated by football media about him, but ultimately it gives him credit that he actually does not deserve.

Dalton has played in 3 Pro Bowls:  2012, 2015, and 2017 (for the 2011, 2014, and 2016 regular seasons respectively.

For the 2012 Pro Bowl, Dalton was the AFC alternate behind Brady, Roethlisberger, and Rivers.  He ended up replacing Brady on that team.

For the 2015 Pro Bowl, there were 6 QBs selected (Romo, Luck, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rogers, Manning) and 4 of them did not participate (the latter 4).  As they dropped out, Dalton was the 3rd QB added to the Pro Bowl teams after Brees and Stafford (effectively making him the 9th "ranked" QB).

For the 2017 Pro Bowl, Dalton was the 2nd AFC Alternate behind Alex Smith after Brady, Carr, and Roethlisberger were initially selected.

In none of those years was Dalton rated as a top-6 league QB yet those Pro Bowl designations imply that.  I think being selected does have its merits, but we've diluted those merits by giving them to the alternates (I don't mind them playing, but they shouldn't be considered as a pro bowl player)

[wadesworld]

I don't exactly agree with this, I think we as fans, and the media end up giving too much credit for making the Pro Bowl because half of the players that make it, don't end up playing in it and thus others get in.

For example, you mention Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler, and if you visit his wikipedia page, it confirms that.  And you'll probably hear that repeated by football media about him, but ultimately it gives him credit that he actually does not deserve.

Dalton has played in 3 Pro Bowls:  2012, 2015, and 2017 (for the 2011, 2014, and 2016 regular seasons respectively.

For the 2012 Pro Bowl, Dalton was the AFC alternate behind Brady, Roethlisberger, and Rivers.  He ended up replacing Brady on that team.

For the 2015 Pro Bowl, there were 6 QBs selected (Romo, Luck, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rogers, Manning) and 4 of them did not participate (the latter 4).  As they dropped out, Dalton was the 3rd QB added to the Pro Bowl teams after Brees and Stafford (effectively making him the 9th "ranked" QB).

For the 2017 Pro Bowl, Dalton was the 2nd AFC Alternate behind Alex Smith after Brady, Carr, and Roethlisberger were initially selected.

In none of those years was Dalton rated as a top-6 league QB yet those Pro Bowl designations imply that.  I think being selected does have its merits, but we've diluted those merits by giving them to the alternates (I don't mind them playing, but they shouldn't be considered as a pro bowl player)

I think any award or all star team that is partially or fully determined by a fan vote is diluted.  I don't think the Pro Bowl means anything at all.

[wadesworld]

Here's my point.  There are obvious holes/concerns in the Packers team.  But freaking out because the Packers had no Pro Bowlers is absurd.  Who cares?

The fact of the matter is that all but 2 teams in the NFL would kill to trade positions with the Packers.  In a QB driven league, the Packers lost arguably the best quarterback in the history of football for half the season and couldn't overcome it.  If that surprises anyone then they don't know football very well.  How many teams can overcome losing their quarterback for half or more of the season and still compete for a Super Bowl?  Not many.  The Vikings, but they knew it was only a matter of time before Bradford was injured so they went out and got a quarterback to back him up that had previous starting experience.  The Eagles?  Maybe, we'll find out.  The Patriots?  Probably, because they have the greatest coach in maybe the entire history of all sports.  Other than that?  I'm not sure any team out there can.

Brett Hundley is going to end up starting 9 games for the Packers, and playing 90% of a 10th game (the Vikings game when Rodgers got hurt on the 2nd offensive drive of the game).  How many NFL teams have a worse starting quarterback than Brett Hundley?  The Browns and...?  In a quarterback driven league, very, very, very few teams are winning enough games to make the Playoffs when Brett Hundley plays 10 games for them.  If any.

I've literally heard Packers fans on the radio saying we should let Rodgers walk after next season because we're spending too much money on one position and it's leaving holes everywhere else.  What a friggin joke.  Quarterback is by far and away the most important position on the football field.  You can be below average everywhere else and have Rodgers as your QB and you might win a Super Bowl.  You can be outstanding everywhere else but if you have a below average quarterback you're going to make the Playoffs every other year and lose in the Divisional Round when you make it to the Playoffs.  Awesome.  Apparently Packers fans would prefer that.  So we want to be the Vikings or Bears.  I personally don't.  Maybe I'm crazy for that.

All you can hope for is a consistent competitor that makes the Playoffs year in and year out.  From there, anything can happen.  If you're doing it consistently then it's pretty clear you're a good football team with a chance to make a run, not just some one hit wonder that happened to be in a bad division and had no real chance to win a game in the Playoffs.  The Packers are consistently competing for a Super Bowl.  Of course I want more than 2 Super Bowls between Favre and Rodgers, but it's not easy to just go out and win a Super Bowl.  The Packers have a shot every year, and that's all you can ask for.

But hey, let's freak out because none of our players get to play in the most meaningless scrimmage that doesn't even look like football!

[MU82]

Gotta agree with wades here.

The Panthers are 10-4. Likely playoff participants. Decent chance to reach the Super Bowl for the 2nd time in 3 years. A lot of impact players, especially on defense.

One player was selected for the Pro Bowl: Luke Kuechly.

I can think of several others who should have gotten strong consideration (and maybe they did), but I'm not upset at all. Not upset that more Panthers didn't make it. Not upset that the GM should have built a team with more Pro Bowl players.

Almost all of the Pro Bowl players the Panthers had when they were 15-1 two years ago are still on the team; they just didn't play quite as well this year, or they had injuries that limited their games, or there simply were better players at the same positions. In general, I'm content with the Panthers' roster - I think a lot of fans of other teams would LOVE to trade rosters with the Panthers.

It's an exhibition game, and the worst of all the major sports. Half the guys who end up going to the Pro Bowl were only alternates as others beg out. And I don't blame them for begging out. Who wants to get hurt in this stupid game? Hell, it's not even in Hawaii any more!

Players want to get named to the Pro Bowl not because they actually want to play in it but because they view it as an affirmation of their greatness. Plus, some have incentive clauses, meaning a Pro Bowl designation is worth $$ to them.

Otherwise, as wades says, the Pro Bowl means absolutely nothing.

[GB Warrior]

Going to agree with wades to a point. I've generally been Team Ted, and that consistency with which we've competed is really the target. It's not always going to end in a Super Bowl.

I won't contest that we're at a critical point, though. Talent at some key spots is a bit bare for the Packers - Jordy is getting old, Adams needs to be paid, and we need salary relief from Cobb. Ted tried to fill the hole at TE via free agency and it just didn't pan out. Our offense can and should adapt next year - we finally look like we have a well-rounded running game. As wades said, Rodgers covers a lot of ills. I think we tap back into the WR well in the draft again, and Ted has had great success at the top of the draft at this position.

Pass rush has been Ted's blind spot - we just can't seem to plug it. Could have definitely paid up to keep Peppers, but no guarantee that he didn't want to return home to close out his career anyway.

CB is a mess. Some of this is injuries, but Ted made 2 big oversights in consecutive years with Hayward and then Hyde (still maintain Hyde was a luxury for us). Still hope for King.

[MU82]

Hey, this is pretty fun for those who haven't seen it yet:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article190826684.html#emlnl=Afternoon_Newsletter

It's the video of Matthews screaming at his defensive mates that the Panthers are about to run the "wheel route," but Newton can be heard responding to Matthews: “You’ve been watching film, huh? That’s cool. Watch this!”

And then, instead of the wheel route, McCaffrey cuts inside, catches the pass and walks into the end zone.

[Pakuni]

I think any award or all star team that is partially or fully determined by a fan vote is diluted.  I don't think the Pro Bowl means anything at all.

IOW, fan opines that the opinions of fans are worthless.

[DegenerateDish]

Pro Bowl means next to nothing, but All Pro is what counts in my mind. All Pro isn't always perfect, but I look at how many times a guy has been named first/second team All Pro than I do how many Pro Bowls he went to.

Completely off topic, I'm irrationally excited to watch the Toilet Bowl game that will be Browns/Bears. I'm not going, but it's the perfect storm for there to be like 7,000 people there (Christmas Eve, 20 degrees, possible snow, two awful franchises playing out the string). I hope it ends in a 6-6 tie and is just dreadful.

[wadesworld]

IOW, fan opines that the opinions of fans are worthless.

Fan opines popularity contests mean nothing when determining how great or poor of a roster a franchise has.

Pro Bowl means next to nothing, but All Pro is what counts in my mind. All Pro isn't always perfect, but I look at how many times a guy has been named first/second team All Pro than I do how many Pro Bowls he went to.

Agreed.

Going to agree with wades to a point. I've generally been Team Ted, and that consistency with which we've competed is really the target. It's not always going to end in a Super Bowl.

I won't contest that we're at a critical point, though. Talent at some key spots is a bit bare for the Packers - Jordy is getting old, Adams needs to be paid, and we need salary relief from Cobb. Ted tried to fill the hole at TE via free agency and it just didn't pan out. Our offense can and should adapt next year - we finally look like we have a well-rounded running game. As wades said, Rodgers covers a lot of ills. I think we tap back into the WR well in the draft again, and Ted has had great success at the top of the draft at this position.

Pass rush has been Ted's blind spot - we just can't seem to plug it. Could have definitely paid up to keep Peppers, but no guarantee that he didn't want to return home to close out his career anyway.

CB is a mess. Some of this is injuries, but Ted made 2 big oversights in consecutive years with Hayward and then Hyde (still maintain Hyde was a luxury for us). Still hope for King.

Agreed with all of this, especially the pass rush issue, except for CB being a mess.  I actually think it has a chance to be a position of strength.  But, as always seems to be the case with the Packers teams, injuries have hindered them.  Hayward had obvious talent but was always hurt with the Packers, so I can understand why they let him go.  Hyde was good and I liked him a lot because he was versatile, but he wasn't fast or big, he was just okay in Green Bay.

Randall was awful at the very start of the season but after the Bears game he played like a true #1 CB.  King I think is going to be very good, but again, can he stay on the field?  We'll see.  House can be a very solid 3rd CB.  It wouldn't hurt to have one more, but if Randall is truly the player we saw for the last 65% of the season and King can stay healthy I think we're good there.  They'll just get exposed if we can't get to the QB ever like we haven't been able to.

[Jockey]

Pro Bowl means next to nothing, but All Pro is what counts in my mind. All Pro isn't always perfect, but I look at how many times a guy has been named first/second team All Pro than I do how many Pro Bowls he went to.

I agree. I never said when I started this conversation that the Pro Bowl was a perfect indicator - just as the stock market is not nearly a perfect indicator of the economy.

So let me restate my argument using 1st and 2nd team all-pro. Counting specialists, we are talking about 50 or so players. Does it say something about a team and about the person who drafts for that team if no players are among these 50 best of the best? I think it does.

Since drafting ARod 12 years ago, he has drafted just one star player in the first round - Mathews.

[DegenerateDish]

I agree. I never said when I started this conversation that the Pro Bowl was a perfect indicator - just as the stock market is not nearly a perfect indicator of the economy.

So let me restate my argument using 1st and 2nd team all-pro. Counting specialists, we are talking about 50 or so players. Does it say something about a team and about the person who drafts for that team if no players are among these 50 best of the best? I think it does.

Since drafting ARod 12 years ago, he has drafted just one star player in the first round - Mathews.

I kinda skimmed the thread, so I wasn't calling you or anyone out, just offering that thought on Pro Bowl vs All Pro.

[Jockey]

I kinda skimmed the thread, so I wasn't calling you or anyone out, just offering that thought on Pro Bowl vs All Pro.

I knew you weren't calling me out.

You made an excellent point and I wanted to follow up.

[WarriorInNYC]

I kinda skimmed the thread, so I wasn't calling you or anyone out, just offering that thought on Pro Bowl vs All Pro.

I definitely think there's much more to All Pro over Pro Bowl, but I think those initially selected to Pro Bowls got there for a reason.  And I think that does speak to some level of quality.  When talking about a GM drafting talent or a coach developing talent, using Pro Bowl selections does provide some sort of measuring stick IMO, just not as valuable as All Pro.

And I understand that the fan voting portion of the Pro Bowl provides an avenue where less-deserving players make it, but I don't quite remember where a certain player made it and egregiously didn't deserve it (many cases where I've felt some players were snubbed over others, but never thought to myself "how the hell did that player even sniff a Pro Bowl bid")

[MU B2002]

Hey, this is pretty fun for those who haven't seen it yet:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article190826684.html#emlnl=Afternoon_Newsletter

It's the video of Matthews screaming at his defensive mates that the Panthers are about to run the "wheel route," but Newton can be heard responding to Matthews: “You’ve been watching film, huh? That’s cool. Watch this!”

And then, instead of the wheel route, McCaffrey cuts inside, catches the pass and walks into the end zone.

And IIRC despite Clay calling it out, the wheel route was open as well.

[GB Warrior]

I agree. I never said when I started this conversation that the Pro Bowl was a perfect indicator - just as the stock market is not nearly a perfect indicator of the economy.

So let me restate my argument using 1st and 2nd team all-pro. Counting specialists, we are talking about 50 or so players. Does it say something about a team and about the person who drafts for that team if no players are among these 50 best of the best? I think it does.

Since drafting ARod 12 years ago, he has drafted just one star player in the first round - Mathews.

What about the guys not in the first round?
 Nick Collins (2nd round),  Josh Sitton (4th), and Jordy (drafted high 2nd after trading out of the first) made it repeatedly. I think Bahktiari and Haha made it last year. Either way, I just don't think the measure of success is drafting someone who is the first or second best at their position for several years. You hit on guys like Mike Daniels or any number of great players who will fall beneath that All Pro status, you're still doing something right.

The Packers need to reload at several positions, and we should continue to see if we can't plug holes via reasonable FA pickups. But to suggest that Thompson hasn't been a successful drafter is ridiculous. If anything, it's his unwillingness to make that reasonable acquisition in FA that separates him from the success teams like NE have had. No one can accuse him of not trying this past off-season, and Bennett gave some validation to Thompson's trepidation.

[Jockey]

And IIRC despite Clay calling it out, the wheel route was open as well.

No way. Capers would not let that happen.