NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[MerrittsMustache]

Brady is probably near the top (still behind Montana in my book). Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under. He doesn't pull an 18 yard run out of thin air with the game on the line. Brady's game is predicated on being kept upright and stationary, and the Pats have done an exceptional job of that over the course of his career.

Brady is "probably" near the top? Really a guy with 5 rings and 7 Super Bowl appearances is just
probably near the top in your eyes? You don't think Brady would pull out a regular season game in Dallas but he was able to pull out a win overcoming a 25-point 2nd half deficit of the Super Bowl? I'm not a big fan of Brady or the Patriots but let's be realistic here.

[B. McBannerson]

Rodgers is still playing. He may very well win another or 3 more super bowls before he is done.  How many did Brady win after the age of 33?

He might, but he's also wasted several opportunities.  This Packers team has played two teams that currently have a winning record, and they lost badly to one of them.  I'm not convinced this team even wins the NFC North yet.  As good as Rodgers is, and he is great, there are many holes.

[B. McBannerson]

Marino=0
Favre=1

It's a team game.  The difference in the top 1% of all time QBs is negligible.  What were the other factors? Coaching, teammates, injuries, luck, etc.  Rodgers clearly in that top group.

Count me as one who have never put Marino or Favre in the top 10.  They were gun slingers and too often put their own gun slinging ahead of the need to be smart and win.   Rodgers is in that group, Dan and Brett aren't. 

[Pakuni]

Rodgers is the better pure passer, but Brady is the GOAT.

[cheebs09]

He might, but he's also wasted several opportunities.  This Packers team has played two teams that currently have a winning record, and they lost badly to one of them.  I'm not convinced this team even wins the NFC North yet.  As good as Rodgers is, and he is great, there are many holes.

A lot of those holes can be closed with guys coming back from injury. We just have to hope that more people don't get hurt.

[wadesworld]

By the way, Davante Adams is going to get paaaaaaaid!  For as bad as he was his first 2 years, he's been outstanding since.

[MU82]

For the record, if we're picking on the two game sample size of Matt Flynn in 2013, he beat an incredibly mediocre Cowboy team, and a horse manure Falcon team that quit on Mike Smith and went 4-12. Just sayin.

First, I apologize for insinuating you're a Packers fan. Obviously, that's a huge insult to you!! Not sure why I thought that, and I won't make that unforgivable mistake again.

My recitation of the Flynn numbers merely were a reaction to the notion that every guy who has QB'd a game during the Rodgers era - other than Rodgers himself - lost.

FWIW, I really enjoy these kinds of discussions/debates. It reminds me of when I was in college and my friends and I would get into arguments about who were the greatest baseball players ever. One of our dive hangouts, the Midget on Wells and 24th (since burned down), had a Baseball Encyclopedia behind the bar that helped settle many of our arguments.

Google's a lot easier!

[Archies Bat]

FWIW, I really enjoy these kinds of discussions/debates. It reminds me of when I was in college and my friends and I would get into arguments about who were the greatest baseball players ever. One of our dive hangouts, the Midget on Wells and 24th (since burned down), had a Baseball Encyclopedia behind the bar that helped settle many of our arguments.

Google's a lot easier!

But Google does not have beer.

[hairy worthen]

He might, but he's also wasted several opportunities.  This Packers team has played two teams that currently have a winning record, and they lost badly to one of them.  I'm not convinced this team even wins the NFC North yet.  As good as Rodgers is, and he is great, there are many holes.

They are tied for the best record in the NFC at 4-1 and with a boat load of key injuries. Its the NFL, they aren't playing southwest state college. Christ they played the top 3 teams in the nfc coming into the season and a Bengal team that is better than their record.  This packer team is as good as any team when healthy and one of a handful of teams with a legitimate chance to win the super bowl. Not me saying it, look it up for yourself.  I'm not convinced you know anything about football other than to be contradictory and argumentative like usual. And please don't bother responding my mother told me not to argue with idiots.

[wadesworld]

3 of the 5 teams the Packers have played were in the Divisional Round (or better) of the Playoffs last season.  Bit early to be talking about teams "over .500," especially when the Packers wins (and loss) over them are included in those records.

[DegenerateDish]

For my money, Rodgers is the GOAT. I'd probably have Elway/Brady a smidge below tied, but all around, Rodgers does every little tangible and intangible you want from that position. Brady has had probably the greatest career of any QB, but gun to head I'd take Rodgers for one game if my life depends on it. It doesn't matter to me that I'm a Bears fan, I appreciate football greatness more than my fan loyalty.

That said, tonight we start laying the foundation for the Trubisky wing in Canton baby! (I kid, I kid).

[JWags85]

For my money, Rodgers is the GOAT. I'd probably have Elway/Brady a smidge below tied, but all around, Rodgers does every little tangible and intangible you want from that position. Brady has had probably the greatest career of any QB, but gun to head I'd take Rodgers for one game if my life depends on it. It doesn't matter to me that I'm a Bears fan, I appreciate football greatness more than my fan loyalty.

That said, tonight we start laying the foundation for the Trubisky wing in Canton baby! (I kid, I kid).

I HATE HATE HATE Rodgers.  Hate him as a Bears fan.  Think he's a tool.  Hate his State Farm commercials and his new commercial with a dog.  HOWEVER, he's the best Ive ever seen.  Brady has incredible poise and accuracy, and his career achievements speak for themselves.  But Ive always thought he benefitted tremendously from the "protect QBs above all else" trend of the last 5-10 years.  Whereas I feel Rodgers is at his best in chaos.  Rodgers can generate a backbreaking game winning drive with a pin point drop pass into a recievers lap, a 20 yard scramble out of NOWHERE, and an absolute laser thrown sidearm while rolling out of the pocket.  Brady is going to reliably give you only one of those plays.  And thats not a knock, he's probably the best pocket passer of all time, but I think Rodgers is a far more complete quarterback.  He also doesn't wear Uggs.

[Jockey]

They have a lot of weapons. Funchess and Benjamin are beasts, McCaffrey adds a lot. And hopefully Olsen will be back for the stretch run.

Two awesome weeks in a row for Cam ... on the field. Which lays to waste the whole "distractions" thing. Very, VERY rarely are top athletes distracted during games by stuff that happened days or weeks earlier, no matter how many times the talking heads on TV say it.

December 17 will be fun!

[MU82]

Based on some of the Rodgers vs Brady comments, you'd think the Patriots have always had kick-arse defenses and the stud receivers, while Rodgers has had to throw passes to slugs and never had any help from the other side of the ball.

Rodgers started playing in 2008. Let's throw out that year because he was a first-year starter and Brady was injured almost the entire season. That means the two have had 8 full seasons in the league as starters together, 2009-2016.

In 4 of those 8 years, the Packers' defense was rated higher than the Patriots' defense. In 2014, when the Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl, they had the better defense but it was only 2 spots higher (13th vs 15th). In 2011, when the Patriots went to the Super Bowl (and lost) and the Packers went 15-1 but promptly got crushed in the playoffs by the Giants, both teams did it all with offense, as GB was ranked last defensively and NE was next-to-last. In 2010, when the Packers won the SB, their defense was ranked 20 spots higher than NE's (5th vs 25th).

During the 8 years, the Patriots' average defensive ranking was 18th and the Packers' average defensive ranking was 16th. The Packers had bigger advantages earlier in Rodgers' career while the Patriots had the bigger advantages more recently.

So it seems a bit simplistic to imply: "Brady always had great defenses but Rodgers had crap."

Now, let's look at the receivers. Brady has had Gronk, as good as any TE ever when healthy, which is always a question mark with him. He had Moss for a couple of years, including one incredible season before Moss got old real fast. He had Branch, a good (but not great) receiver.

Nowadays, we can see that Edelman, Amandola and Hogan are very good receivers, but Edelman was a 7th-round draft pick and the other two weren't drafted. Brady made them (and yes, the system obviously is a factor, too). Wes Welker, who also wasn't drafted, had one fine season in Miami before becoming a perennial superstar with Brady throwing to him. Others who have had very good seasons with Brady throwing to them: Brandon LaFell, Kenbrell Thompkins, and an aging Brandon Lloyd (who had his second-best season with Brady).

Rodgers certainly helped make many of his WRs greater than they otherwise might have been. Anybody who would deny that hasn't paid attention. Still ... Cobb, Jordy, Jennings and Adams were all 2nd-rounders. Finley and Jones were 3rd-rounders.

Is it more surprising that Nelson, Jennings, Jones, Cobb and Finley are all top-20 receivers in Packers history ... or that Edelman, Amandola and Welker became stars for the Patriots?

Love me some Rodgers. So much fun to watch, and such a great QB. Still finding it hard to find much evidence to support the thesis that he's had a better career than Brady has.

[rocket surgeon]

He might, but he's also wasted several opportunities.  This Packers team has played two teams that currently have a winning record, and they lost badly to one of them.  I'm not convinced this team even wins the NFC North yet.  As good as Rodgers is, and he is great, there are many holes.

ok 4/5- you must still be hurting after yesterday's game but lost badly to one of them?  yes they were getting their chit handed to them early and part of the comeback could've been due to atlanta chalking it up a little early-cheezus, i thought they learned their lesson last january-eyn'a.  but anywhooo, i don't wanna sound like a blame da refs kinda guy, but that penalty(pick??) on matellis right before halftime was a killer. if they could have reviewed that one, it would have been reversed-no doubt.  end of series-punt from deep in their territory-atlanta scores, then gets the ball back after halftime...absolute killer. 

[Mutaman]

Call a spade a spade

Well if you insist: You're a right wing moron.

[hairy worthen]

ok 4/5- you must still be hurting after yesterday's game but lost badly to one of them?  yes they were getting their chit handed to them early and part of the comeback could've been due to atlanta chalking it up a little early-cheezus, i thought they learned their lesson last january-eyn'a.  but anywhooo, i don't wanna sound like a blame da refs kinda guy, but that penalty(pick??) on matellis right before halftime was a killer. if they could have reviewed that one, it would have been reversed-no doubt.  end of series-punt from deep in their territory-atlanta scores, then gets the ball back after halftime...absolute killer.

No shame in losing to the defending NFC champion in their opening home game in a new stadium, missing both starting tackles and backup tackle and leading receiver and best defensive player. For anyone to use that as narrative as to why the Packers may not be good is just plain ignorant. I'm guessing there isn't a team in the nfl that wins under that  same scenario.

[HouWarrior]

Respecting the thread I wont start a new topic .....but this weekend was devastating for all Houston Texan fans over the season ending injury to JJ Watt. This guy did not deserve this.

A fine man from WI, Houston has fully embraced him as one our sports heroes. His hurricane relief work merits NFL man of the Year honors. We really love this guy.

Even if his career ends now I would still vote him to HOF. Kind of like a Sandy Koufax legacy in NFL terms

My sincerest best wishes to a great player and very good man

[forgetful]

Based on some of the Rodgers vs Brady comments, you'd think the Patriots have always had kick-arse defenses and the stud receivers, while Rodgers has had to throw passes to slugs and never had any help from the other side of the ball.

Rodgers started playing in 2008. Let's throw out that year because he was a first-year starter and Brady was injured almost the entire season. That means the two have had 8 full seasons in the league as starters together, 2009-2016.

In 4 of those 8 years, the Packers' defense was rated higher than the Patriots' defense. In 2014, when the Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl, they had the better defense but it was only 2 spots higher (13th vs 15th). In 2011, when the Patriots went to the Super Bowl (and lost) and the Packers went 15-1 but promptly got crushed in the playoffs by the Giants, both teams did it all with offense, as GB was ranked last defensively and NE was next-to-last. In 2010, when the Packers won the SB, their defense was ranked 20 spots higher than NE's (5th vs 25th).

During the 8 years, the Patriots' average defensive ranking was 18th and the Packers' average defensive ranking was 16th. The Packers had bigger advantages earlier in Rodgers' career while the Patriots had the bigger advantages more recently.

So it seems a bit simplistic to imply: "Brady always had great defenses but Rodgers had crap."

Now, let's look at the receivers. Brady has had Gronk, as good as any TE ever when healthy, which is always a question mark with him. He had Moss for a couple of years, including one incredible season before Moss got old real fast. He had Branch, a good (but not great) receiver.

Nowadays, we can see that Edelman, Amandola and Hogan are very good receivers, but Edelman was a 7th-round draft pick and the other two weren't drafted. Brady made them (and yes, the system obviously is a factor, too). Wes Welker, who also wasn't drafted, had one fine season in Miami before becoming a perennial superstar with Brady throwing to him. Others who have had very good seasons with Brady throwing to them: Brandon LaFell, Kenbrell Thompkins, and an aging Brandon Lloyd (who had his second-best season with Brady).

Rodgers certainly helped make many of his WRs greater than they otherwise might have been. Anybody who would deny that hasn't paid attention. Still ... Cobb, Jordy, Jennings and Adams were all 2nd-rounders. Finley and Jones were 3rd-rounders.

Is it more surprising that Nelson, Jennings, Jones, Cobb and Finley are all top-20 receivers in Packers history ... or that Edelman, Amandola and Welker became stars for the Patriots?

Love me some Rodgers. So much fun to watch, and such a great QB. Still finding it hard to find much evidence to support the thesis that he's had a better career than Brady has.

A little misleading.  Brady has played 7 seasons on teams whose defense ranked in the roughly top 40% of the league.  Including 4 of his 5 Super Bowl wins.  Rodgers has played on 3 such teams, 2009, 2010 (Super Bowl win) and 2012. 

More importantly NE typically averages in the top 5 or top 10 offensive lines in the league.  Since 2009, Brady averages getting sacked on 4.83% of attempts.  Rodgers 7.5%.  Brady plays behind top 10 offensive lines, Rodgers plays behind bottom 10 offensive lines.

Brady benefits from substantially better defenses and offensive lines.  Those win championships. 

[GB Warrior]

A little misleading.  Brady has played 7 seasons on teams whose defense ranked in the roughly top 40% of the league.  Including 4 of his 5 Super Bowl wins.  Rodgers has played on 3 such teams, 2009, 2010 (Super Bowl win) and 2012. 

More importantly NE typically averages in the top 5 or top 10 offensive lines in the league.  Since 2009, Brady averages getting sacked on 4.83% of attempts.  Rodgers 7.5%.  Brady plays behind top 10 offensive lines, Rodgers plays behind bottom 10 offensive lines.

Brady benefits from substantially better defenses and offensive lines.  Those win championships.

In all fairness, it helps to weed out the sacks that are the QBs fault. Rodgers makes plays by holding the ball. Defense has perpetually been the downfall of this team. Hard to say that for Brady.

I think rankings are dumb in football, although they are so much fun. Just too many variables in play.

I wish Rodgers had the Pats defenses all these years. I wish he had 5 rings so we were as insufferable as the Pats fans. We don't. I'll hope for one more out of Aaron before Karma catches up with GB. None of that stops me from thinking that Rodgers is the most fun to watch him execute.

[jsglow]

30th quarterback in 25 years.

[JWags85]

Of course this Bears team comes out fired up and inspired.  Probably win on MNF.  This team is going to somehow finish 6-10 and keep Fox's job and get a middle draft pick.

Vikings offense looks HORRIFIC.

[Sir Lawrence]

What was the under on this match?

[4everwarriors]

3, hey?

[GooooMarquette]

Respecting the thread I wont start a new topic .....but this weekend was devastating for all Houston Texan fans over the season ending injury to JJ Watt. This guy did not deserve this.

A fine man from WI, Houston has fully embraced him as one our sports heroes. His hurricane relief work merits NFL man of the Year honors. We really love this guy.

Even if his career ends now I would still vote him to HOF. Kind of like a Sandy Koufax legacy in NFL terms

My sincerest best wishes to a great player and very good man

I was sad to hear about his injury.  Great player, great guy.  Hope he is able to make it back strong.