NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[MerrittsMustache]

Rodgers has won in spite of McCarthy most of the time. In spite of his defense. In spite of an o-line that always seems banged up and patched together in his prime. What happens when Packer wideouts go elsewhere? Nothing, average at best. Who's the best offensive skill player Rodgers has played with? Who can scramble like Rodgers and still be one of the most accurate QB's ever? He leads the world in getting teams offside and 12 men on the field penalties. He's clutch as eff. I know Brady's great, and I've watched football for 38 years, and the Dish eye test is Rodgers GOAT.

I'll be back with other blazing hot takes after I put my kids to bed.

5 Rings > Drawing offsides penalties 


In other news, JJ Watt just tore his ACL.

[wadesworld]

I'm going to highlight 4 offensive guys that stood out.

Adams - out of the hospital to hero.  Guy played a great game and called for the ball with Jordy dinged.

Jones - kid had a helluva game.  Showed the same instinct and burst in the pre-season.  Confident in him being a solid #2 enabling Monty to take fewer reps.

Taylor - never played OT in his life and has done a great job filling in in two back to back wins.  Absolutely outstanding and was a great contract sign a few weeks back.

McCray - lunch pail guy who has earned multiple starts after an Arena career and done a very solid job.

I would also add Bennett.  His drops the previous few weeks have been frustrating, but even if he isn't contributing in terms of receiving yards and touchdowns, his blocking both in the passing game and the running game have been incredible.  Every time I pay attention to him he's chipping on a guy or straight up staying in and blocking.  Also had 2 big time catches today, one a catch and run and the other a very nice diving/falling catch.

[GB Warrior]

Aaron is in the discussion, and one thing I think we can agree on is that he's passed Favre on that list. He is so athletically gifted and yet fundamentally sound. Favre was a joy to watch because you knew he was making it up as he went along. Rodgers is exciting for entirely different reasons, but everything he does feels calculated.

I don't know if he gets another ring, but it won't be because of him. I'm not sure another quarterback has won DESPITE his team as much as Rodgers. This isn't to say he doesn't have talent or hasn't had talent around him - that would be insulting to players like Jordy. But he has overcome deficiencies at just about every other position - OL, WR, RB, and defense like no one else. Hell, he almost beat the Cards single-handedly two years ago. 

Brady is probably near the top (still behind Montana in my book). Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under. He doesn't pull an 18 yard run out of thin air with the game on the line. Brady's game is predicated on being kept upright and stationary, and the Pats have done an exceptional job of that over the course of his career.

I don't know who ranks where when the dust settles, but I do know that Rodgers is as fun as hell to watch like no one currently in the league.

[jsglow]

I would also add Bennett.  His drops the previous few weeks have been frustrating, but even if he isn't contributing in terms of receiving yards and touchdowns, his blocking both in the passing game and the running game have been incredible.  Every time I pay attention to him he's chipping on a guy or straight up staying in and blocking.  Also had 2 big time catches today, one a catch and run and the other a very nice diving/falling catch.

Excellent point.  Marty played well.

[GB Warrior]

I'm going to highlight 4 offensive guys that stood out.

Adams - out of the hospital to hero.  Guy played a great game and called for the ball with Jordy dinged.

Jones - kid had a helluva game.  Showed the same instinct and burst in the pre-season.  Confident in him being a solid #2 enabling Monty to take fewer reps.

Taylor - never played OT in his life and has done a great job filling in in two back to back wins.  Absolutely outstanding and was a great contract sign a few weeks back.

McCray - lunch pail guy who has earned multiple starts after an Arena career and done a very solid job.

Loved Jones running style coming out of school: quick, if not fast. Reminds me of Devonta Freeman a bit.

I'll add Damarious Randall. He gave up a TD on fantastic coverage, but Dak had an even better throw. I honestly don't care about the pick-6 since it's a bit luck of the draw. But he was very sound the rest of the night. Hope that is a turning point for him.

[wadesworld]

Loved Jones running style coming out of school: quick, if not fast. Reminds me of Devonta Freeman a bit.

I'll add Damarious Randall. He gave up a TD on fantastic coverage, but Dak had an even better throw. I honestly don't care about the pick-6 since it's a bit luck of the draw. But he was very sound the rest of the night. Hope that is a turning point for him.

Was it Randall or Rollins who made the tackle on a 3rd and long screen pass? I can’t even remember when the play happened in the game but it got our defense off the field with the stop around midfield. He was the only defender close to the play and they had 2 blockers on him and he split the block and made an ankle tackle. That was a great and huge play.

[jsglow]

Loved Jones running style coming out of school: quick, if not fast. Reminds me of Devonta Freeman a bit.

I'll add Damarious Randall. He gave up a TD on fantastic coverage, but Dak had an even better throw. I honestly don't care about the pick-6 since it's a bit luck of the draw. But he was very sound the rest of the night. Hope that is a turning point for him.

If we're talking young guys on D, there's only one who's earning game ball after game ball.

Martinez.

That said I like several young guys including Clark, King and Jones.

Was it Randall or Rollins who made the tackle on a 3rd and long screen pass? I can’t even remember when the play happened in the game but it got our defense off the field with the stop around midfield. He was the only defender close to the play and they had 2 blockers on him and he split the block and made an ankle tackle. That was a great and huge play.

Q.

[GB Warrior]

If we're talking young guys on D, there's only one who's earning game ball after game ball.

Martinez.

That said I like several young guys including Clark, King and Jones.

Q.

Agree - Martinez has really made himself irreplaceable on a defense where Dom wants nothing more than to get rid of all ILB and replace them with safeties. Clark has also made a noticeable and consistent jump.

[Sir Lawrence]

5 Rings > Drawing offsides penalties 


In other news, JJ Watt just tore his ACL.

Tibial plateau fracture.  Ouch.

[MerrittsMustache]

Tibial plateau fracture.  Ouch.

Likely done for the season. That'll be only 7 games played and 1.5 sacks for him over 2 seasons. He had an all-time 4-year run but this could be about it for him as a dominant/Pro Bowl caliber player.

[MU82]

Aaron is in the discussion, and one thing I think we can agree on is that he's passed Favre on that list. He is so athletically gifted and yet fundamentally sound. Favre was a joy to watch because you knew he was making it up as he went along. Rodgers is exciting for entirely different reasons, but everything he does feels calculated.

I don't know if he gets another ring, but it won't be because of him. I'm not sure another quarterback has won DESPITE his team as much as Rodgers. This isn't to say he doesn't have talent or hasn't had talent around him - that would be insulting to players like Jordy. But he has overcome deficiencies at just about every other position - OL, WR, RB, and defense like no one else. Hell, he almost beat the Cards single-handedly two years ago. 

Brady is probably near the top (still behind Montana in my book). Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under. He doesn't pull an 18 yard run out of thin air with the game on the line. Brady's game is predicated on being kept upright and stationary, and the Pats have done an exceptional job of that over the course of his career.

I don't know who ranks where when the dust settles, but I do know that Rodgers is as fun as hell to watch like no one currently in the league.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a big Rodgers fan. One of the best I've seen, to be sure.

But again, you substitute opinion for fact: "Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under."

Brady has pulled out a few games under great pressure, including his very first championship. There are different ways to "escape" pressure aside from using one's legs. Quick release, guile, ability to read the D quickly, "clock in the head" telling when to throw away, etc.

The Panthers pounded Brady last week. Pounded him. Yet he advanced the ball to set up a FG at the end of the first half after getting the ball with only about 30 seconds left, and then he rallied the Pats from a 14-point fourth-quarter deficit. Against a darn good defensive team that hounded him and pounded him all day.

Obviously, just one example.

It's easy to say Brady doesn't pull out that game, but then I could say Rodgers doesn't pull out last year's Super Bowl. It would be no less impossible to prove.

Rodgers has won in spite of McCarthy most of the time. In spite of his defense. In spite of an o-line that always seems banged up and patched together in his prime. What happens when Packer wideouts go elsewhere? Nothing, average at best. Who's the best offensive skill player Rodgers has played with? Who can scramble like Rodgers and still be one of the most accurate QB's ever? He leads the world in getting teams offside and 12 men on the field penalties. He's clutch as eff. I know Brady's great, and I've watched football for 38 years, and the Dish eye test is Rodgers GOAT.

Again, no way to prove this.

Rodgers is the most talented QB I have ever seen play the game.

Does most talented QB = GOAT, sure why the hell not.  Go pack go.

Or this.

But these conversations are fun, and they are one of the things I love about sports.

One "advantage" I have over some of y'all is that I have no horse in this race. I love watching great athletes do their thing, and I really enjoy watching Rodgers play, but I really don't care if he and the Packers win or lose.

[DegenerateDish]

5 Rings > Drawing offsides penalties 


In other news, JJ Watt just tore his ACL.

In the Brady vs Rodgers argument, look at the Pats when Brady was out. 11-5 when he tore his ACL in week 1 in 2008. Team also went 3-1 last year while he was suspended.

I don't remember the exact record, but when Rodgers broke his collarbone, I believe the Pack went something like 1-3-1, and they looked terrible without him. The Pats move on to next QB up when Brady goes out.

[DegenerateDish]

Don't get me wrong; I'm a big Rodgers fan. One of the best I've seen, to be sure.

But again, you substitute opinion for fact: "Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under."

Brady has pulled out a few games under great pressure, including his very first championship. There are different ways to "escape" pressure aside from using one's legs. Quick release, guile, ability to read the D quickly, "clock in the head" telling when to throw away, etc.

The Panthers pounded Brady last week. Pounded him. Yet he advanced the ball to set up a FG at the end of the first half after getting the ball with only about 30 seconds left, and then he rallied the Pats from a 14-point fourth-quarter deficit. Against a darn good defensive team that hounded him and pounded him all day.

Obviously, just one example.

It's easy to say Brady doesn't pull out that game, but then I could say Rodgers doesn't pull out last year's Super Bowl. It would be no less impossible to prove.


Again, no way to prove this.

Or this.

But these conversations are fun, and they are one of the things I love about sports.

One "advantage" I have over some of y'all is that I have no horse in this race. I love watching great athletes do their thing, and I really enjoy watching Rodgers play, but I really don't care if he and the Packers win or lose.

There's no way to prove that Packer wideouts that go to other teams are marginal at best without Rodgers? There's no way to statistically prove Rodgers leads the world in opponent offsides and 12 men on the field penalties?

Interesting.

[forgetful]

In the Brady vs Rodgers argument, look at the Pats when Brady was out. 11-5 when he tore his ACL in week 1 in 2008. Team also went 3-1 last year while he was suspended.

I don't remember the exact record, but when Rodgers broke his collarbone, I believe the Pack went something like 1-3-1, and they looked terrible without him. The Pats move on to next QB up when Brady goes out.

I agree with this argument re. Rodgers vs. Brady.  Brady is great because of the offensive line and system.  Rodgers is great, because of Rodgers.

[MU82]

There's no way to prove that Packer wideouts that go to other teams are marginal at best without Rodgers? There's no way to statistically prove Rodgers leads the world in opponent offsides and 12 men on the field penalties?

Interesting.

In 2013, the Packers picked up Matt Flynn off the scrap heap with Rodgers injured and threw him into 4 games. He won 2 of them, completing 61% of his passes for 1146 yds, 7 TDs and 4 INTs. His earlier success as a GB understudy won him a huge contract from Seattle, where he stunk. He also stunk with Buffalo and Oakland.

He is one guy the crappy McCarthy system seemed to work OK for.

In 2014, James Jones went to Oakland and set a career high with 73 catches, had his second best catch percentage and had his 4th most TDs. He didn't gain nearly as many yards per catch as he had in GB, when he was surrounded by other talented receivers (as well as Rodgers, of course). David Carr was a clueless rookie who "led" Oakland to a 3-13 record that season.

One QB we all have forgotten to mention so far: John Elway. He didn't miss many games because he was very durable, but in 1992, he did miss 4. The Broncos were 8-4 with Elway, 0-4 without him, costing them a playoff spot. Mark Jackson and Arthur Marshall were standouts with Elway throwing to them; they did nothing elsewhere.

I'm too lazy to do this exercise with other QBs. Again, I'm not sure what it would "prove."

Hey, I really don't want to argue against Rodgers. He's a hell of a QB, one of the best I've seen. But the only thing that anybody saying he's better than Tom Brady - "period" - means is that the person who said it is a Packers fan - period. Nothing wrong with that. I stand by my faves, too!

I'm guessing Patriots fans would be able to pull up a few stats to back their guy, including lots of impressive numbers, dozens of incredible comeback victories and ... oh yeah ... 7 SB appearances and 5 championships. Period.

[wadesworld]

Don't get me wrong; I'm a big Rodgers fan. One of the best I've seen, to be sure.

But again, you substitute opinion for fact: "Cite the championships all you want, but Brady doesn't pull this drive out today with the pressure Rodgers was under."

Brady has pulled out a few games under great pressure, including his very first championship. There are different ways to "escape" pressure aside from using one's legs. Quick release, guile, ability to read the D quickly, "clock in the head" telling when to throw away, etc.

The Panthers pounded Brady last week. Pounded him. Yet he advanced the ball to set up a FG at the end of the first half after getting the ball with only about 30 seconds left, and then he rallied the Pats from a 14-point fourth-quarter deficit. Against a darn good defensive team that hounded him and pounded him all day.

Obviously, just one example.

It's easy to say Brady doesn't pull out that game, but then I could say Rodgers doesn't pull out last year's Super Bowl. It would be no less impossible to prove.


Again, no way to prove this.

Or this.

But these conversations are fun, and they are one of the things I love about sports.

One "advantage" I have over some of y'all is that I have no horse in this race. I love watching great athletes do their thing, and I really enjoy watching Rodgers play, but I really don't care if he and the Packers win or lose.

You love telling everyone who will listen at every chance you get that you have the "advantage of having no horse in the race," and then go on to say, "But the Brewers very well could be 10 games back after next week!"  I think you bring it up in every post you make in a Packers/Brewers discussion.

If anything, Dish has a reason to hate Rodgers and deny that he is a great quarterback.  He's a Bears fan.

In the Brady vs Rodgers argument, look at the Pats when Brady was out. 11-5 when he tore his ACL in week 1 in 2008. Team also went 3-1 last year while he was suspended.

I don't remember the exact record, but when Rodgers broke his collarbone, I believe the Pack went something like 1-3-1, and they looked terrible without him. The Pats move on to next QB up when Brady goes out.

I believe, but don't remember for certain, that the Packers were 0-5-1 (maybe including the game in which he got injured?).  I am 99% sure they did not win a game during the stretch that he was out, and certain they had 1 tie in there.

[wadesworld]

In 2013, the Packers picked up Matt Flynn off the scrap heap with Rodgers injured and threw him into 4 games. He won 2 of them, completing 61% of his passes for 1146 yds, 7 TDs and 4 INTs. His earlier success as a GB understudy won him a huge contract from Seattle, where he stunk. He also stunk with Buffalo and Oakland.

He is one guy the crappy McCarthy system seemed to work OK for.

In 2014, James Jones went to Oakland and set a career high with 73 catches, had his second best catch percentage and had his 4th most TDs. He didn't gain nearly as many yards per catch as he had in GB, when he was surrounded by other talented receivers (as well as Rodgers, of course). David Carr was a clueless rookie who "led" Oakland to a 3-13 record that season.

One QB we all have forgotten to mention so far: John Elway. He didn't miss many games because he was very durable, but in 1992, he did miss 4. The Broncos were 8-4 with Elway, 0-4 without him, costing them a playoff spot. Mark Jackson and Arthur Marshall were standouts with Elway throwing to them; they did nothing elsewhere.

I'm too lazy to do this exercise with other QBs. Again, I'm not sure what it would "prove."

Hey, I really don't want to argue against Rodgers. He's a hell of a QB, one of the best I've seen. But the only thing that anybody saying he's better than Tom Brady - "period" - means is that the person who said it is a Packers fan - period. Nothing wrong with that. I stand by my faves, too!

I'm guessing Patriots fans would be able to pull up a few stats to back their guy, including lots of impressive numbers, dozens of incredible comeback victories and ... oh yeah ... 7 SB appearances and 5 championships. Period.

Uhh, well, uhm...no.  Dish is a Bears fan...

[MU82]

You love telling everyone who will listen at every chance you get that you have the "advantage of having no horse in the race," and then go on to say, "But the Brewers very well could be 10 games back after next week!"  I think you bring it up in every post you make in a Packers/Brewers discussion.

If anything, Dish has a reason to hate Rodgers and deny that he is a great quarterback.  He's a Bears fan.

I believe, but don't remember for certain, that the Packers were 0-5-1 (maybe including the game in which he got injured?).  I am 99% sure they did not win a game during the stretch that he was out, and certain they had 1 tie in there.

First, I sit corrected on Dish. As a Bears fan, his brain obviously has been turned to mush by Rodgers so often he can't think straight - ha! Seriously, thanks. I don't like getting my facts wrong. My opinions end up being wrong sometimes, so I at least like getting facts right!

Second, I respectfully submit that much of your recollection about the 2013 Packers is wrong.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlynMa00.htm

Flynn's starts and results are just what I said they were.

Here is his week-by-week record that year:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlynMa00/gamelog/2013/

Note the spectacular stats in the 1-point victories over Atlanta and Dallas in successive weeks; the Packers do not win the division without those performances by Flynn.

Furthermore, here's what was in the Packers' 2013 "Dope Sheet" (http://prod.static.packers.clubs.nfl.com//assets/docs/dopesheet/2014/140130dopesheet.pdf):

FLYNN IN THE FOURTH
In Green Bay’s comeback win at Dallas in Week 15, QB Matt Flynn had a strong showing in the fourth quarter, connecting on nine of 12 passes for 99 yards and two TDs for a 138.5 passer rating.

After coming on in relief of Scott Tolzien in the second half of the Week 12 contest, Flynn had had a lot of success in the fourth quarter of games. He posted a 125.5 passer rating in the final quarter, completing 33 of 46 passes for 383 yards and four TDs with no INTs.

Flynn’s fourth-quarter passer rating since Week 12 ranked No. 1 in the NFL over that span.

In the Week 15 win at Dallas, Flynn became the first QB in franchise history to throw four TD passes in a second half.

You were right about the tie: 26-26 against the Vikings. In that game, as ESPN reported:

Backup quarterback Matt Flynn threw for 218 yards to help the Packers storm back from a 16-point deficit for a 26-26 tie as the Minnesota Vikings and Green Bay could only muster field goals in overtime Sunday.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=331124009

Lastly, I really don't care if the Packers win or lose. Or the Brewers. I said the Cubs would win the division going away because I thought they would (and I ended up being pretty correct). If I felt the Brewers would win the division, I would have said so.

I bring up that I don't have a horse in the race because I think it's material to do so. I don't "love" or "hate" any of these teams.

What I do love is watching Aaron Rodgers play. He's one of the best QBs I've ever seen.

Saying he's better than Tom Brady ... there's little to no basis for it.

Oh, and I'm no Brady fan, either - except that I also love watching him play.

[DegenerateDish]

For the record, if we're picking on the two game sample size of Matt Flynn in 2013, he beat an incredibly mediocre Cowboy team, and a horse manure Falcon team that quit on Mike Smith and went 4-12. Just sayin.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I am confident that if you were somehow able to clone every player/coach on a team except the quarterback and you made two teams of these clones and put Aaron Rodgers in charge of one and any other quarterback in charge of the other....Rodgers would win.

I of course have no way to prove this, but I 100% believe it to be true.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If the playoffs were today, seeding in the AFC would be as follows:

1. Cheifs
2. Bills
3. Jaguars
4. Steelers
5. Broncos
6. Ravens
First team out of the playoffs: Jets

If anyone says they saw this coming at this point in the season I will slap them and call them a liar. Long way to go but the parity in the AFC is unreal.

[Jockey]

What I do love is watching Aaron Rodgers play. He's one of the best QBs I've ever seen.

Saying he's better than Tom Brady ... there's little to no basis for it.

Oh, and I'm no Brady fan, either - except that I also love watching him play.

This is a great discussion to have - even though there is no way to know the answer. I do posit, though, that if you switched the two teams' defenses for the last nine years, AR would have more rings than Brady.

Of course there is no proof - just my feeling. We'll see what Tom does this year with a Packers-esque defense in New England.

I'm not arguing that Arod is the greatest ever. I would have him in the top 5 with a chance to move up. I still put Brady, Manning, and Montana at the top for now, but remember, Montana also had some great defenses to help him out. Like Arod, Manning always had his team in the hunt in Indy despite some brutal defenses.

[wadesworld]

First, I sit corrected on Dish. As a Bears fan, his brain obviously has been turned to mush by Rodgers so often he can't think straight - ha! Seriously, thanks. I don't like getting my facts wrong. My opinions end up being wrong sometimes, so I at least like getting facts right!

Second, I respectfully submit that much of your recollection about the 2013 Packers is wrong.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlynMa00.htm

Flynn's starts and results are just what I said they were.

Here is his week-by-week record that year:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlynMa00/gamelog/2013/

Note the spectacular stats in the 1-point victories over Atlanta and Dallas in successive weeks; the Packers do not win the division without those performances by Flynn.

Furthermore, here's what was in the Packers' 2013 "Dope Sheet" (http://prod.static.packers.clubs.nfl.com//assets/docs/dopesheet/2014/140130dopesheet.pdf):

FLYNN IN THE FOURTH
In Green Bay’s comeback win at Dallas in Week 15, QB Matt Flynn had a strong showing in the fourth quarter, connecting on nine of 12 passes for 99 yards and two TDs for a 138.5 passer rating.

After coming on in relief of Scott Tolzien in the second half of the Week 12 contest, Flynn had had a lot of success in the fourth quarter of games. He posted a 125.5 passer rating in the final quarter, completing 33 of 46 passes for 383 yards and four TDs with no INTs.

Flynn’s fourth-quarter passer rating since Week 12 ranked No. 1 in the NFL over that span.

In the Week 15 win at Dallas, Flynn became the first QB in franchise history to throw four TD passes in a second half.

You were right about the tie: 26-26 against the Vikings. In that game, as ESPN reported:

Backup quarterback Matt Flynn threw for 218 yards to help the Packers storm back from a 16-point deficit for a 26-26 tie as the Minnesota Vikings and Green Bay could only muster field goals in overtime Sunday.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=331124009

Lastly, I really don't care if the Packers win or lose. Or the Brewers. I said the Cubs would win the division going away because I thought they would (and I ended up being pretty correct). If I felt the Brewers would win the division, I would have said so.

I bring up that I don't have a horse in the race because I think it's material to do so. I don't "love" or "hate" any of these teams.

What I do love is watching Aaron Rodgers play. He's one of the best QBs I've ever seen.

Saying he's better than Tom Brady ... there's little to no basis for it.

Oh, and I'm no Brady fan, either - except that I also love watching him play.

Interesting. I thought I remembered McGinn throwing out an article with a title that was something to the effect of “The Packers are Equipped to Win Without Rodgers” and within the next 2 weeks he broke his collarbone and we literally went winless without him. My memory was wrong on that one.

[hairy worthen]

He's one of the greatest, but if I were a Packers fan and I only get 1 SB out of the GOAT, that would make me pretty angry.  All the other greats got 2 and sometimes many more.

Rodgers is still playing. He may very well win another or 3 more super bowls before he is done.  How many did Brady win after the age of 33?

[hairy worthen]

Rodgers has won in spite of McCarthy most of the time. In spite of his defense. In spite of an o-line that always seems banged up and patched together in his prime. What happens when Packer wideouts go elsewhere? Nothing, average at best. Who's the best offensive skill player Rodgers has played with? Who can scramble like Rodgers and still be one of the most accurate QB's ever? He leads the world in getting teams offside and 12 men on the field penalties. He's clutch as eff. I know Brady's great, and I've watched football for 38 years, and the Dish eye test is Rodgers GOAT.

I'll be back with other blazing hot takes after I put my kids to bed.

I think you are under rating McCarthy, the receivers and the offense in general.  Your point about banged up offensive line is valid, but poor defense is the biggest factor in why the Packers haven't won more with Rodgers. I remember many games where Rodgers and the offense played well only to have the defense piss it away at the end.  Still 8 straight playoff appearances and a few nfc championship appearances doesn't suck.