NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[jsglow]

Week 3 ratings up.
Clear evidence fans love it when players protest the anthem?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/09/26/nfl-2017-week-3-ratings-donald-trump

Also, on a slightly related front, take note of the item further down about Fox News and ESPN.

They were up especially big for Monday Night Football but the comparison is suspect because last year there was a widely watched Presidential Debate. At least we didn't have to watch THAT again!

[B. McBannerson]

MLB ratings are up this year.  I guess they don't have cord cutters or distribution problems?

Saw on ESPN tonight that Direct Tv is giving refunds to customers that want to cancel NFL Football Ticket package. Apparently first time ever.

[B. McBannerson]

One player among more than 200?
That's weak, even for you.

It was the first one I went to, but not the only one that displayed disrespectful behavior.   I'm glad we can agree that what he did was extremely disrespectful and unprofessional, or am I reaching to suggest you feel the same way?

[B. McBannerson]

Was it disrespectful when all the way up to 2009, many players stayed in the locker room and stretch or got treatments or warmed up, instead of coming out for the national anthem?

Honestly, the national anthem before a game is more for the fans/audience and less about the players who are preparing to do their job.  Let them prepare for their job any way they see fit, and leave the patriotic aspects to the fans/audience.

No, because they were in the locker room.  The announcement is made in the stadium to please rise, remove hats, honor America.  That isn't made in the locker room.  I see no equivalence.   

I would find it equally offensive and disrespectful if they asked for a moment of silence and someone decided to scream and yap during it.  How I was raised.

[B. McBannerson]

Week 3 ratings up.
Clear evidence fans love it when players protest the anthem?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/09/26/nfl-2017-week-3-ratings-donald-trump

Also, on a slightly related front, take note of the item further down about Fox News and ESPN.

Likely to be the case, but week 3 full ratings aren't even out yet. Only HH ratings, which are not the same thing.  This will likely be a win for the NFL beating a YOY rating that went up against a presidential debate and needed the Dallas Cowboys on MNF to save the week in TV ratings.  Not a good sign for the league.

[wadesworld]

Glow you had to kick page 22 off?  I think Chicos could've gone on a full page long crusade here.

[Pakuni]

It was the first one I went to, but not the only one that displayed disrespectful behavior.   I'm glad we can agree that what he did was extremely disrespectful and unprofessional, or am I reaching to suggest you feel the same way?

Oh, you're definitely reaching.
Unlike some, I'm not a snowflake whose feelings for my country are so fragile that I get triggered by others' failure to partake in gestures of forced patriotism. I'm not so insecure in my belief in America that I get offended by those who - in this case, accurately - put its flaws on display.
Nor am I an opportunist who seizes upon this Trumped up controversy as a convenient wedge issue to pander to my base or score political points, all the while proliferating lies about the purpose of the protest.
Nor am I a bigot who views this as an easy opportunity to further the racial divide and denigrate those who don't look or think like me.
It makes no difference to me whether someone stands, sits, kneels, stretches, naps or takes advantage of the short lines in the bathroom during the anthem. Others are free to do as they wish, and I have no desire to judge them for it. I'm not a phony who praises America for the freedom it provides, but demands people be punished for exercising those freedoms if it makes me uncomfortable. I do not feel threatened by those who choose not to hop aboard the jingoism express that often comes with the playing of the anthem at sporting events.

For the record, I have and will continue to stand and remove my hat for the playing of the anthem. Because that's what I chose. But I honor the rights of those who chose otherwise and I respect the hell out of those willing to put their reputations and careers on the line for a just cause in which they believe.
How I was raised.

[Jay Bee]

If people have their hat on at sporting events, I ask them to take it off. If they don't it gets removed.

[rocket surgeon]

there are certain times and places where a specific behavior is expected.  there aren't many and they don't ask too much.  with a few exceptions, a funereal-typically, a more reverent atmosphere where a certain decorum is expected. 
   the national anthem has an expected decorum as well.   is it too much to ask for a very brief moment of that during a 2 minute song? a song that was inspired by our u.s soldiers who on 9/14/1814 to celebrate a crucial victory over the british forces during the war of 1812.  without that victory, God knows where we would be nor who we would be answering to.  the song has and very rightly so, become emblematic of ALL of our soldiers and their families giving the ultimate sacrifice for us to live a life the rest of the world envies. 

    this protest, whatever it is over, is chosen purposely to interfere with this tradition because they know it will generate the most controversy-PERIOD! you talk to 5 different guys and you get 5 different reasons for the protest.  translation-it has become an "opportunity to feed at the smorgasbord of social blah blah.  would they choose to pull their b.s during say, the funereal of or a memorial for fill in the blank liberal "hero"?  they can go ahead and protest their balls off, BUT during the national anthem is plain wrong on all levels.  i know everyone has their examples of noting one behavior or another that stray from the expected.  but to organize a group to display their disrespect collectively, out on the filed is wrong. 

  if they want to protest-it is their right because of the wars we've won, but do it outside the stadium, before or after the games.  organize your own.  hell, these people own the media.  they could get some ceo from one the networks to broadcast their crap.  but as much as they want to say this isn't about dis-respecting this or that-B.S. it is by default.  by doing it during the national anthem becomes the ultimate sign of disrespect to our soldiers and that's why a majority of our people-you know, the fly-overs, the ones ignored by those that know better, totally disagree with this "protest"

                  love, boo-boo

 

[Lennys Tap]

there are certain times and places where a specific behavior is expected.  there aren't many and they don't ask too much.  with a few exceptions, a funereal-typically, a more reverent atmosphere where a certain decorum is expected. 
   the national anthem has an expected decorum as well.   is it too much to ask for a very brief moment of that during a 2 minute song? a song that was inspired by our u.s soldiers who on 9/14/1814 to celebrate a crucial victory over the british forces during the war of 1812.  without that victory, God knows where we would be nor who we would be answering to.  the song has and very rightly so, become emblematic of ALL of our soldiers and their families giving the ultimate sacrifice for us to live a life the rest of the world envies. 

    this protest, whatever it is over, is chosen purposely to interfere with this tradition because they know it will generate the most controversy-PERIOD! you talk to 5 different guys and you get 5 different reasons for the protest.  translation-it has become an "opportunity to feed at the smorgasbord of social blah blah.  would they choose to pull their b.s during say, the funereal of or a memorial for fill in the blank liberal "hero"?  they can go ahead and protest their balls off, BUT during the national anthem is plain wrong on all levels.  i know everyone has their examples of noting one behavior or another that stray from the expected.  but to organize a group to display their disrespect collectively, out on the filed is wrong. 

  if they want to protest-it is their right because of the wars we've won, but do it outside the stadium, before or after the games.  organize your own.  hell, these people own the media.  they could get some ceo from one the networks to broadcast their crap.  but as much as they want to say this isn't about dis-respecting this or that-B.S. it is by default.  by doing it during the national anthem becomes the ultimate sign of disrespect to our soldiers and that's why a majority of our people-you know, the fly-overs, the ones ignored by those that know better, totally disagree with this "protest"

                  love, boo-boo

 

Wow. Very well said.

[tower912]

there are certain times and places where a specific behavior is expected.  there aren't many and they don't ask too much.  with a few exceptions, a funereal-typically, a more reverent atmosphere where a certain decorum is expected. 
   the national anthem has an expected decorum as well.   is it too much to ask for a very brief moment of that during a 2 minute song? a song that was inspired by our u.s soldiers who on 9/14/1814 to celebrate a crucial victory over the british forces during the war of 1812.  without that victory, God knows where we would be nor who we would be answering to.  the song has and very rightly so, become emblematic of ALL of our soldiers and their families giving the ultimate sacrifice for us to live a life the rest of the world envies. 

    this protest, whatever it is over, is chosen purposely to interfere with this tradition because they know it will generate the most controversy-PERIOD! you talk to 5 different guys and you get 5 different reasons for the protest.  translation-it has become an "opportunity to feed at the smorgasbord of social blah blah.  would they choose to pull their b.s during say, the funereal of or a memorial for fill in the blank liberal "hero"?  they can go ahead and protest their balls off, BUT during the national anthem is plain wrong on all levels.  i know everyone has their examples of noting one behavior or another that stray from the expected.  but to organize a group to display their disrespect collectively, out on the filed is wrong. 

  if they want to protest-it is their right because of the wars we've won, but do it outside the stadium, before or after the games.  organize your own.  hell, these people own the media.  they could get some ceo from one the networks to broadcast their crap.  but as much as they want to say this isn't about dis-respecting this or that-B.S. it is by default.  by doing it during the national anthem becomes the ultimate sign of disrespect to our soldiers and that's why a majority of our people-you know, the fly-overs, the ones ignored by those that know better, totally disagree with this "protest"

                  love, boo-boo

 

Thank you for your opinion. 

[jesmu84]

there are certain times and places where a specific behavior is expected.  there aren't many and they don't ask too much.  with a few exceptions, a funereal-typically, a more reverent atmosphere where a certain decorum is expected. 
   the national anthem has an expected decorum as well.   is it too much to ask for a very brief moment of that during a 2 minute song? a song that was inspired by our u.s soldiers who on 9/14/1814 to celebrate a crucial victory over the british forces during the war of 1812.  without that victory, God knows where we would be nor who we would be answering to.  the song has and very rightly so, become emblematic of ALL of our soldiers and their families giving the ultimate sacrifice for us to live a life the rest of the world envies. 

    this protest, whatever it is over, is chosen purposely to interfere with this tradition because they know it will generate the most controversy-PERIOD! you talk to 5 different guys and you get 5 different reasons for the protest.  translation-it has become an "opportunity to feed at the smorgasbord of social blah blah.  would they choose to pull their b.s during say, the funereal of or a memorial for fill in the blank liberal "hero"?  they can go ahead and protest their balls off, BUT during the national anthem is plain wrong on all levels.  i know everyone has their examples of noting one behavior or another that stray from the expected.  but to organize a group to display their disrespect collectively, out on the filed is wrong. 

  if they want to protest-it is their right because of the wars we've won, but do it outside the stadium, before or after the games.  organize your own.  hell, these people own the media.  they could get some ceo from one the networks to broadcast their crap.  but as much as they want to say this isn't about dis-respecting this or that-B.S. it is by default.  by doing it during the national anthem becomes the ultimate sign of disrespect to our soldiers and that's why a majority of our people-you know, the fly-overs, the ones ignored by those that know better, totally disagree with this "protest"

                  love, boo-boo

 

Agree to disagree. And that's okay for both of us.

[jesmu84]

Did anyone have a problem with what the cowboys did on Monday night? If so, why?

[GGGG]

Did anyone have a problem with what the cowboys did on Monday night? If so, why?

I do.  I thought it was a bastardization of what the entire protest was about.  And now we see the Packers asking the fans to lock arms Thursday night in a show of "unity?"

That's not the point.  That's never been the point.  Unifying for the sake of unity, while simultaneously not addressing the issue, is like recognizing veterans at sporting events with a nice applause, but then not funding the VA enough to help with their underlying health issues.  It's like wearing pink for "breast cancer awareness" without providing support to organizations trying to cure the disease.

It has become the corporate response that makes people feel they are doing something.  But they really aren't doing anything.   And you want to know why many people feel their issues are marginalized in society?

[Pakuni]

Agree to disagree. And that's okay for both of us.

Seconded.

[drewm88]

I do.  I thought it was a bastardization of what the entire protest was about.  And now we see the Packers asking the fans to lock arms Thursday night in a show of "unity?"

That's not the point.  That's never been the point.  Unifying for the sake of unity, while simultaneously not addressing the issue, is like recognizing veterans at sporting events with a nice applause, but then not funding the VA enough to help with their underlying health issues.  It's like wearing pink for "breast cancer awareness" without providing support to organizations trying to cure the disease.

It has become the corporate response that makes people feel they are doing something.  But they really aren't doing anything.   And you want to know why many people feel their issues are marginalized in society?

Agreed

[MerrittsMustache]

I do.  I thought it was a bastardization of what the entire protest was about.  And now we see the Packers asking the fans to lock arms Thursday night in a show of "unity?"

That's not the point.  That's never been the point.  Unifying for the sake of unity, while simultaneously not addressing the issue, is like recognizing veterans at sporting events with a nice applause, but then not funding the VA enough to help with their underlying health issues.  It's like wearing pink for "breast cancer awareness" without providing support to organizations trying to cure the disease.

It has become the corporate response that makes people feel they are doing something.  But they really aren't doing anything.   And you want to know why many people feel their issues are marginalized in society?

This has been my issue with the protest from the beginning. There's no plan. There are no action items. It's now reached the point where no one is really sure what the players are even protesting (promoting?) anymore. Are they taking a stand against racial injustices and police brutality? Are they angry that the POTUS called them SOBs? Do they just want to promote unity? What's the point of all this?

If players want to call attention to social injustices, spend their off days and bye weeks meeting with community leaders to discuss the issues and see how they can help.

If players want to push back on police brutality, start raising funds to aid in better training for officers or for foundations leading the charge against this issue.

If players want to show that they don't mean any disrespect to veterans then raise money for the VA or for foundations to help veterans with PTSD.

Sitting/kneeling got the ball rolling but it's time to act and there are a lot of relatively simply actions that can be taken to bring attention to the actual issues that started this whole thing.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I fully understand and respect anyone who thinks kneeling during the national anthem is disrespectful.

I am terrified that so many people are ready to see people fired, fined, and (in a small minority) thrown in jail for refusing to participate in a show of patriotism. That's not something I expect to see in a country like ours.

[MUBurrow]

This has been my issue with the protest from the beginning. There's no plan. There are no action items. It's now reached the point where no one is really sure what the players are even protesting (promoting?) anymore. Are they taking a stand against racial injustices and police brutality? Are they angry that the POTUS called them SOBs? Do they just want to promote unity? What's the point of all this?

If players want to call attention to social injustices, spend their off days and bye weeks meeting with community leaders to discuss the issues and see how they can help.

If players want to push back on police brutality, start raising funds to aid in better training for officers or for foundations leading the charge against this issue.

If players want to show that they don't mean any disrespect to veterans then raise money for the VA or for foundations to help veterans with PTSD.

Sitting/kneeling got the ball rolling but it's time to act and there are a lot of relatively simply actions that can be taken to bring attention to the actual issues that started this whole thing.

Academically speaking, social movements have four stages - (1) Emergence, (2) Coalescence, (3) Bureaucratization/Formalization, and (4) Decline. Trying to apply the framework to what we're seeing (and admittedly painting in an overly broad brush), what we're seeing now is probably advanced, down and dirty stage 2. Kaep and some of the pioneers were the triggers for emergence. As things have gained steam, more people are participating while opinions are becoming more polarized (equal and opposite reaction sort of thing).  Bureaucratization/Formalization comes next, and if we're still having the exact same "but no one's actually doing anything" debate this time next year or the year after, I would argue that would be a valid criticism. But let's not unfairly impose unrealistic expectations on a social movement taken up by sports figures that is really still in its infancy.

One other thought with respect to the "what are the protests about" debate - that is not on Kaep, Martellus Bennett, and other protest pioneers. They've been very clear that this has been about the African American condition in America, most prominently with respect to law enforcement. The blurring of that message has been the work of political leaders creating the straw man that the protests carry an anti-military message, and the NFL and its teams co-opting it into some sort of bastardized #branding freedom of speech/unity, don't call us SOB's thing. To get nerdy again for a second, co-opting is actually one of the main reasons academics cite for the decline of social movements, and that's one of the conflicts we're seeing play out since Trump commented on the protests without mentioning the African American and law enforcement issue. THAT is the essence of co-opting and blurring the message. Everything from Goodell's initial response, to Jerry Jones to, if he doesn't start getting more specific, Rodger's comments this week, will only add fuel to the "what's this really about, anyway" fire, and pull the entire movement further off message.

Sorry for the rant - here's a link to a quick primer of the sociology stuff I mentioned. Anyone who actually studied it in depth, please feel free to chime in and correct what I'm sure are a bunch of things I got wrong 
https://www.ebscohost.com/uploads/imported/thisTopic-dbTopic-1248.pdf

[4everwarriors]

Dis chit will all say adios soon, ai na?

[Pakuni]

Academically speaking, social movements have four stages - (1) Emergence, (2) Coalescence, (3) Bureaucratization/Formalization, and (4) Decline. Trying to apply the framework to what we're seeing (and admittedly painting in an overly broad brush), what we're seeing now is probably advanced, down and dirty stage 2. Kaep and some of the pioneers were the triggers for emergence. As things have gained steam, more people are participating while opinions are becoming more polarized (equal and opposite reaction sort of thing).  Bureaucratization/Formalization comes next, and if we're still having the exact same "but no one's actually doing anything" debate this time next year or the year after, I would argue that would be a valid criticism. But let's not unfairly impose unrealistic expectations on a social movement taken up by sports figures that is really still in its infancy.

One other thought with respect to the "what are the protests about" debate - that is not on Kaep, Martellus Bennett, and other protest pioneers. They've been very clear that this has been about the African American condition in America, most prominently with respect to law enforcement. The blurring of that message has been the work of political leaders creating the straw man that the protests carry an anti-military message, and the NFL and its teams co-opting it into some sort of bastardized #branding freedom of speech/unity, don't call us SOB's thing. To get nerdy again for a second, co-opting is actually one of the main reasons academics cite for the decline of social movements, and that's one of the conflicts we're seeing play out since Trump commented on the protests without mentioning the African American and law enforcement issue. THAT is the essence of co-opting and blurring the message. Everything from Goodell's initial response, to Jerry Jones to, if he doesn't start getting more specific, Rodger's comments this week, will only add fuel to the "what's this really about, anyway" fire, and pull the entire movement further off message.

Sorry for the rant - here's a link to a quick primer of the sociology stuff I mentioned. Anyone who actually studied it in depth, please feel free to chime in and correct what I'm sure are a bunch of things I got wrong 
https://www.ebscohost.com/uploads/imported/thisTopic-dbTopic-1248.pdf

This is a very good post.

To add in response to MM:

First, you're mistaken if you believe players haven't done anything beyond taking a knee. They've met with law enforcement, community leaders and public officials in places like Philadelphia, Cleveland and elsewhere. They've gone on ride alongs with police officers. They've hosted events in their communities to raise awareness and improve relations. They've donated large sums to various causes that work on the issues they're raising. They've even testified before Congress on these issues.
Basically, they're doing all the things you suggest.

Secondly, one can't seriously suggest its incumbent upon a handful of professional athletes to fix these deep-rooted societal issues. It's a civic duty for ALL of us to fix these issues. And most of all it's a duty of our institutions to address these issues.
NFL players shouldn't be paying for better police training. Police departments should be paying for better police training. NFL players shouldn't be funding better treatment for veterans. The Pentagon should be funding better treatment for veterans.
Let's not demand respect for a flag while abdicating our responsibility to uphold the principles for which it stands.

[MerrittsMustache]

This is a very good post.

To add in response to MM:

First, you're mistaken if you believe players haven't done anything beyond taking a knee. They've met with law enforcement, community leaders and public officials in places like Philadelphia, Cleveland and elsewhere. They've gone on ride alongs with police officers. They've hosted events in their communities to raise awareness and improve relations. They've donated large sums to various causes that work on the issues they're raising. They've even testified before Congress on these issues.
Basically, they're doing all the things you suggest.

Secondly, one can't seriously suggest its incumbent upon a handful of professional athletes to fix these deep-rooted societal issues. It's a civic duty for ALL of us to fix these issues. And most of all it's a duty of our institutions to address these issues.
NFL players shouldn't be paying for better police training. Police departments should be paying for better police training. NFL players shouldn't be funding better treatment for veterans. The Pentagon should be funding better treatment for veterans.
Let's not demand respect for a flag while abdicating our responsibility to uphold the principles for which it stands.

I never said that individual players haven't done anything. They most certainly have. However, the players as a group haven't exactly come together to take significant action or make a specific call to action in a large-scale way. It's a rudderless ship right now which is why the message has gotten so jumbled.

Also, you know that I never said that its incumbent upon NFL players to make societal changes on their own. However, if players feel that strongly about an issue, they can at least get the ball rolling. JJ Watt raised nearly $40M via social media in less than a month. Americans can be very generous but need a starting point and a cause. Ask every player to donate $1000 or even one game check to (fill in the causes), open donations up to the public and see what happens. I'm guessing that would be more beneficial than your stance of "Hey, it's on the government to do that."

[Pakuni]

I never said that individual players haven't done anything. They most certainly have. However, the players as a group haven't exactly come together to take significant action or make a specific call to action in a large-scale way.

Actually, they've done exactly that:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/09/21/report-memo-roger-goodell-nfl-players-request-support-activism-effort/688142001/

FWIW, it's worth reading the entire memo. I think you'll be surprised at out how in-depth they go and how detailed their plans are. And I think it might dispel beliefs that the players aren't taking the next steps:

https://sports.yahoo.com/memo-4-players-sent-nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-030818178.html

Also, you know that I never said that its incumbent upon NFL players to make societal changes on their own. However, if players feel that strongly about an issue, they can at least get the ball rolling. JJ Watt raised nearly $40M via social media in less than a month. Americans can be very generous but need a starting point and a cause. Ask every player to donate $1000 or even one game check to (fill in the causes), open donations up to the public and see what happens. I'm guessing there would be more beneficial than your stance of "Hey, it's on the government to do that."

First, most of the players leading the charge have individual foundations to which they give money and accept donations that benefit their communities and these causes. I'll provide some links for you to visit (and maybe donate?).
Colin Kaepernick: http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/
Michael Bennett: https://thebennettfoundation.org/
Malcolm Jenkins: http://themalcolmjenkinsfoundation.org/
Torrey Smith: https://www.torreysmith.org/
Anquan Boldin: https://q81.org/

Second, you're grossly misstating my stance. I clearly said it's on all of us.

[brewcity77]

Did anyone have a problem with what the cowboys did on Monday night? If so, why?

Yes. If a protest isn't making someone a bit uncomfortable, it's not a protest.

[rocket surgeon]

  "I am terrified that so many people are ready to see people fired, fined, and (in a small minority) thrown in jail for refusing to participate in a show of patriotism. That's not something I expect to see in a country like ours."

  how many?  and of those, are they the ones who can fire, fine, or throw in jail those who disagree with the other?  you say "so many" but many of those have no power to do the aforementioned.  my opinion=fear not tamu my man, there is much more around here to be "terrified" of like global warming