NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[mu03eng]

What's your source on that?

Quotes from players including James Harrison and a few other players was that they decided to go to the locker room route because some had expressed not wanting to make it about themselves and have them stand out, amongst them was Villanuena according to the players.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/09/25/steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-raps-alejandro-villanueva-for-standing-for-national-anthem.html

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20810701/pittsburgh-steelers-surprised-alejandro-villanueva-move

[mu03eng]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20810701/pittsburgh-steelers-surprised-alejandro-villanueva-move

"The starting left tackle was a key figure in the team's protest planning because of his background. Players wanted to accommodate Villanueva, who expressed during their 30-minute session that he didn't want to be singled out, the source said. Moving the protest off the field entirely was a way to keep solidarity without isolating an individual."

We'll never know how the planning conversations went, but it kind of creates a tough situation for everybody if Villanueva was a part of the initial agreement to stay in the locker room/tunnel and then had a change of heart at the last second. If he wasn't an integral part of those conversations and the agreement to stay in the tunnel, well then that clearly undermines the value of the whole expression from the Steelers.

Based on some of the quotes I've seen, it sounds like the team was not united in terms of how they would approach things and by default elected just to not come out of the locker room, but there are conflicting player quotes as to whether or not Villanueva was "exempted from" the stay in the locker room plan.

Dude's got a Bronze star and is a Ranger, I'm assuming he knows how to team and was true to his word. I'm assuming this gets hammered out this week between him and his teammates.

[forgetful]

What's your source on that?

Others have shared some of the links to it, pretty widely reported.  Not saying there was anything nefarious going on, just a weird overall scenario. 

My guess, is he was ok with the plan from the team and had a last minute change of heart and felt he needed to be out there.  Good for him.  Do what you think is right.

I was just highlighting that this is a weird overall story. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Others have shared some of the links to it, pretty widely reported.  Not saying there was anything nefarious going on, just a weird overall scenario. 

My guess, is he was ok with the plan from the team and had a last minute change of heart and felt he needed to be out there.  Good for him.  Do what you think is right.

I was just highlighting that this is a weird overall story.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was questioning you. Just hadn't seen it reported that way. Upon reading the report, my first instinct was also to think that he made a last-second decision.

That said, I feel like the players only meeting should have consisted of the players simply asking Villanueva what to do as a team to show unity. Who knows? Maybe they did.

[mu03eng]

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was questioning you. Just hadn't seen it reported that way. Upon reading the report, my first instinct was also to think that he made a last-second decision.

That said, I feel like the players only meeting should have consisted of the players simply asking Villanueva what to do as a team to show unity. Who knows? Maybe they did.

Don't know that we'll ever know. It sounds like there was a lot of differing opinions in the players only meeting. I'm sure its a case of message misalignment and they'll resolve it.

But this is an example of how this form of protest can be divisive in of itself. Too much time is spent arguing about the act of protest and not nearly enough time around what was the original object of the protest.

One further question, do we even know what the objects of the protest are any more? Rightly or wrongly, we at least knew what Kaep was protesting (police brutality and institutional racism). Players have seemingly joined in that message, until Trump opened his stupid mouth to call for the removal of players who protest. So were yesterday's protests against Trump, for free speech, against brutality/racism, all of it, none of it?

[StillAWarrior]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

[Pakuni]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

Very well said.
I'd suggest anyone offended take a look at some of the photos of yesterday's protests. Those guys aren't acting disrespectfully, IMO. Many have their hands over their hearts or heads bowed. Nearly all are displaying unity.

[mu03eng]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

I agree with this. I understand what the athletes are doing but I also understand why some may be offended(veterans especially). However, I don't understand how you can be offended enough to demand someone be silenced, and I also think the majority of the people that are offended that deep are also exhibiting so called "snowflake" behavior. The right's outrage over these protests are just as ridiculous as the left's silencing of controversial voices because of not being "PC". Nothing drives me nuts more than hypocrisy.

[mu03eng]

One other thing, I'd much rather someone stand with a raised fist or kneel during the anthem than sit. What am I missing that kneeling is so terrible?

[MU82]

One further question, do we even know what the objects of the protest are any more? Rightly or wrongly, we at least knew what Kaep was protesting (police brutality and institutional racism). Players have seemingly joined in that message, until Trump opened his stupid mouth to call for the removal of players who protest. So were yesterday's protests against Trump, for free speech, against brutality/racism, all of it, none of it?

I don't know, of course, but my vote would be for "all of it" - or at least different things for different protesters, many likely feeling they were addressing multiple topics.

For about a year, most players were content to let a few do the protesting. But then when Trump came out and ripped NFL players far more forcefully than he ever has condemned white supremacists, nearly 200 players decided to join. I think it was both to stand with their brothers in a protest against institutional racism and to tell Trump where to stick his executive order pen.

Remember, not only did Trump criticize those who exercise their freedom of speech, but he also basically said: "I want football to go back to the time where guys were getting crippled and even more concussed than now, because my entertainment is more important than the athletes' lives."

He also called them SOBs. Very presidential.

One interesting reaction came from Tom Brady, who had been a vocal Trump supporter and even called Trump a "friend":

"I certainly disagree with what he said and thought it was just divisive."

Nobody must have read that to Trump ... although Brady is probably the wrong color to get a tweet-slam from Trump on this issue.

An interesting aside to all of this is that Michael Jordan - who rarely made political comments as a player, and occasionally was criticized by black players, civil-rights leaders, etc, for not taking stands on racial issues - came out Sunday night against Trump and for athletes:

“One of the fundamental rights this country is founded on was freedom of speech, and we have a long tradition of nonviolent, peaceful protest. Those who exercise the right to peacefully express themselves should not be demonized or ostracized. At a time of increasing divisiveness and hate in this country, we should be looking for ways to work together and support each other and not create more division. I support Commissioner Adam Silver, the NBA, its players and all those who wish to exercise their right to free speech.”


Jordan, who worried about his "brand" when he was a player, theoretically has even more to lose now. He owns an NBA team in a southern market that sometimes has trouble drawing crowds, he runs a very popular clothing brand, and he remains a well-compensated pitchman.

[rocket surgeon]

well goodell better clarify the rules because what is happening(kneeling, raised fists, staying in locker room...) is against NFL rules. 

http://wgntv.com/2017/09/25/do-nfl-rules-require-players-to-stand-during-the-national-anthem/

   but tebow took A LOT of crap when he kneeled?

the dallas cowboys were disallowed to honor fallen cops

nfl broke the rules re: "deflategate"
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/09/03/rules-indeed-were-broken-nfl/UvF9uVfTwjYcpvKzmC2YsI/story.html
     

[GGGG]

well goodell better clarify the rules because what is happening(kneeling, raised fists, staying in locker room...) is against NFL rules. 

http://wgntv.com/2017/09/25/do-nfl-rules-require-players-to-stand-during-the-national-anthem/

So you read the fake social media postings that claimed those rules existed, found an article that specifically said those social media postings were inaccurate, linked to that article on Scoop...

...and still fell for it?

[tower912]

well goodell better clarify the rules because what is happening(kneeling, raised fists, staying in locker room...) is against NFL rules. 

http://wgntv.com/2017/09/25/do-nfl-rules-require-players-to-stand-during-the-national-anthem/

   but tebow took A LOT of crap when he kneeled?

the dallas cowboys were disallowed to honor fallen cops

nfl broke the rules re: "deflategate"
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/09/03/rules-indeed-were-broken-nfl/UvF9uVfTwjYcpvKzmC2YsI/story.html
     

If you had read the linked article, you would have seen it debunks your thesis.  Sad!

[Pakuni]

the dallas cowboys were disallowed to honor fallen cops
 

This is not true. The Cowboys did plenty to honor the police officers who were killed.
The NFL didn't allow the team to wear a particular decal on their helmets. This is a result of the NFL's silly obsession with uniformity (see: Peyton Manning's and DeAngelo Williams' cleats), not some imaginary bias.

[Silkk the Shaka]

So you read the fake social media postings that claimed those rules existed, found an article that specifically said those social media postings were inaccurate, linked to that article on Scoop...

...and still fell for it?

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Lennys Tap]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

+1

[Spotcheck Billy]

So you read the fake social media postings that claimed those rules existed, found an article that specifically said those social media postings were inaccurate, linked to that article on Scoop...

...and still fell for it?

Well its not like he's a brain surgeon or anything.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

Well said

[forgetful]

I suspect -- actually, "know" is probably a more appropriate word choice -- that my position on this is at odds with most with whom I generally share political beliefs.  I am not "offended" by the protests.  I do not automatically have contempt for the protesters.  I actually believe that the vast majority of them love their country deeply and respect and honor the flag.  I don't think taking a knee during the National Anthem changes that.  While I don't necessarily see some of issues leading to the protests in the same way, I respect the right to protest.  Also, while it may not be the intention of the protesters, I note that in many contexts kneeling is viewed as a very reverent posture.  As I look at many of the protesters, I don't necessary see a lack of reverence.  Frankly, quite the contrary.  I see people who love their country but are very troubled by some of what they see happening.  While I will still stand for the Anthem and place my hand over my heart, I don't necessarily disagree with them in many respects.  Truth be told, I'd probably have a lower opinion of the protesters if they remained standing but turned their backs on the flag.

On many occasions I've seen people on the right complain about all the "outrage" that is manufactured on the left.  As someone who could fairly be described as right-leaning, the outrage over athletes (and others) who in my opinion are fairly solemnly and reverentially protesting during the National Anthem is more disturbing than the protest itself.

Just my opinion.  YMMV

Well said. 

Out of curiosity, for those against what the players are doing.  What if they said that they were kneeling to pray for America, and that it would return to the land of equality for all people that our brave soldiers fought/fight for...that it was a sign of reverence to what they have sacrificed for, but what many americans are not receiving.

[GGGG]

Well said. 

Out of curiosity, for those against what the players are doing.  What if they said that they were kneeling to pray for America, and that it would return to the land of equality for all people that our brave soldiers fought/fight for...that it was a sign of reverence to what they have sacrificed for, but what many americans are not receiving.

Especially if they were primarily white players, most people complaining now wouldn't have a problem.

To be fair, I would likely LOL at them, but would never call them disrespectful.

[mu_hilltopper]

So you read the fake social media postings that claimed those rules existed, found an article that specifically said those social media postings were inaccurate, linked to that article on Scoop...

...and still fell for it?

This.  So much this. 

[tower912]

Now that I have watched the replay and listened to discussion regarding the end of the Lions-Falcons game,  I think the following:
1. Tate was down short of the goal line.  Good call.
2.  The runoff follows the letter of the law.  Good call.   Except....
3.  Tate was actually touched with 10+ seconds left.
4.. it doesn't matter because it is still the Lions.

[rocket surgeon]

i'll be waiting for all the apologies, well...not going to be holding my breath though

https://news.grabien.com/story-roger-goodell-ignoring-leagues-own-rule-book-letting-players

  "UPDATE: Snopes.com claims that this rule does not, in fact, exist. The article cites the rule quoted above and reports "No such wording appears in the 2017 version of the Official Playing Rules of the National Football League."
Yet the NFL's Game Operations Manual -- the 200-plus book the league refers to as its "bible" -- is different than its rulebook. It is not available to the public. The rule cited above comes from the league itself, via the Washington Post.
The Post reported Sunday that the NFL confirmed the rule's existence but emphasized their ability to enforce it selectively:
Under the league rule, the failure to be on the field for the anthem may result in discipline such as a fine, suspension or loss of a draft pick. But a league official said the key phrase is “may” result, adding he won’t speculate on whether the Steelers would be disciplined.
The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual, according to a league source.

UPDATE TWO: After Grabien contacted Snopes.com, bringing the above facts to their attention, the author amended his article, confirming the existence of the above-state rule, and changed their description of this story from "false" to "mixture." "

[GGGG]

Apologize for what?  YOUR link didn't support YOUR argument. 

[Pakuni]

i'll be waiting for all the apologies, well...not going to be holding my breath though

https://news.grabien.com/story-roger-goodell-ignoring-leagues-own-rule-book-letting-players

  "UPDATE: Snopes.com claims that this rule does not, in fact, exist. The article cites the rule quoted above and reports "No such wording appears in the 2017 version of the Official Playing Rules of the National Football League."
Yet the NFL's Game Operations Manual -- the 200-plus book the league refers to as its "bible" -- is different than its rulebook. It is not available to the public. The rule cited above comes from the league itself, via the Washington Post.
The Post reported Sunday that the NFL confirmed the rule's existence but emphasized their ability to enforce it selectively:
Under the league rule, the failure to be on the field for the anthem may result in discipline such as a fine, suspension or loss of a draft pick. But a league official said the key phrase is “may” result, adding he won’t speculate on whether the Steelers would be disciplined.
The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual, according to a league source.

UPDATE TWO: After Grabien contacted Snopes.com, bringing the above facts to their attention, the author amended his article, confirming the existence of the above-state rule, and changed their description of this story from "false" to "mixture." "

Rocket ... you said "kneeling, raised fists, staying in locker room" is against NFL rules.
Your evidence of this is a secret "operations guide" that is "different than its rulebook" and states "players must be on the sidelines."

So, even taken in the light most favorable to you,"kneeling, raised fists, staying in locker room" is definitely not against NFL rules, and perhaps staying in the locker room is contrary to the operations guide.

You're correct that you probably shouldn't hold your breath waiting for an apology.