NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[tower912]

The only time I had to watch football yesterday was the NYG/Cowboy game.    I saw Elliot get a carry and turned it off.     Underinflated balls?   Suspension.    Political stand?    Can't get a job.    Elliot?    No biggie. 

[cheebs09]

The only time I had to watch football yesterday was the NYG/Cowboy game.    I saw Elliot get a carry and turned it off.     Underinflated balls?   Suspension.    Political stand?    Can't get a job.    Elliot?    No biggie.

Well, they did suspend him, but the courts ruled against the NFL. I'm not up on the topic, but not sure what the NFL could have done to make it stick.

Al and Chris were very light on their feet as they danced around the subject. At least during the parts I watched.

[wadesworld]

Well, they did suspend him, but the courts ruled against the NFL. I'm not up on the topic, but not sure what the NFL could have done to make it stick.

Al and Chris were very light on their feet as they danced around the subject. At least during the parts I watched.

Yeah.  That and the fact that it's not the NFL telling teams they can't sign Kaepernick.  If Kaepernick were as good at football as Elliot is he'd be playing every week with no issue.

[Pakuni]

Yeah.  That and the fact that it's not the NFL telling teams they can't sign Kaepernick.  If Kaepernick were as good at football as Elliot is he'd be playing every week with no issue.

After watching Scott Tolzien, Tom Savage, Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer starts games yesterday, nobody can credibly argue that Colin Kapernick is out of the league because of his playing abilities.

[tower912]

Add Carson Palmer to that list. 

[StillAWarrior]

But it did. Kaepernick kneeled, which led to the Browns kneeling, which led to the demonstration that we saw yesterday. The third event doesn't happen without the first one.

I tend to disagree with the position Kaepernick is taking.  But, I respect the hell out of him for what he is doing (although not voting was stupid).  I believe he is far more brave and deserves far more credit than athletes who stand on the stage at the ESPYs and make speeches (although I think they deserve credit too).  Anyone who thinks that what he's doing is having no effect isn't paying attention.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yeah.  That and the fact that it's not the NFL telling teams they can't sign Kaepernick.  If Kaepernick were as good at football as Elliot is he'd be playing every week with no issue.

Exactly. It's a sexier story to say that he's being blackballed because of his politics but the truth is that, in the minds of NFL coaches and executives, the controversy and sideshow that come along with Kaepernick outweigh his on-field abilities.

The Cowboys are standing by their star RB through domestic violence charges but released a back-up WR in training camp after he was wrongfully accused of missing his court date in a case of mistaken identity. It's all about whether or not you can play.

[wadesworld]

After watching Scott Tolzien, Tom Savage, Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer starts games yesterday, nobody can credibly argue that Colin Kapernick is out of the league because of his playing abilities.

Kaepernick's playing abilities (and lack thereof) absolutely are a part of the equation.  Or are you saying that if Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady had been the ones kneeling going into last season they wouldn't be on a roster this season?

Exactly. It's a sexier story to say that he's being blackballed because of his politics but the truth is that, in the minds of NFL coaches and executives, the controversy and sideshow that come along with Kaepernick outweigh his on-field abilities.

The Cowboys are standing by their star RB through domestic violence charges but released a back-up WR in training camp after he was wrongfully accused of missing his court date in a case of mistaken identity. It's all about whether or not you can play.

Yup.

[CTWarrior]

After watching Scott Tolzien, Tom Savage, Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer starts games yesterday, nobody can credibly argue that Colin Kapernick is out of the league because of his playing abilities.

Nobody is arguing that.  What people are arguing is that Kapernick's abilities combined with the distractions/baggage he brings with him are not worth it.  He's not going to be the reason you win games, so why should you or your team waste time and energy dealing with media about him?

[Pakuni]

Nobody is arguing that.  What people are arguing is that Kapernick's abilities combined with the distractions/baggage he brings with him are not worth it.  He's not going to be the reason you win games, so why should you or your team waste time and energy dealing with media about him?

That's exactly what some are arguing.
When your argument boils down to "Kaepernik would need to be a future Hall of Famer to get a roster spot," you are admitting that the only reason he's not in the league is because of his protest.

As for the waste of time and energy, that's a red herring. Find me one player, coach or front office person in San Francisco who says Kaepernik's protest had a negative impact on their season.

[GGGG]

Yeah the whole "he's a distraction" is a line of grade A bullsh*t.  Kaepernick would improve a team like the Colts instantly. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Yeah the whole "he's a distraction" is a line of grade A bullsh*t.  Kaepernick would improve a team like the Colts instantly.

Yes, he would improve the Colts...but they don't want to deal with all that comes along with signing him.

That's exactly what some are arguing.
When your argument boils down to "Kaepernik would need to be a future Hall of Famer to get a roster spot," you are admitting that the only reason he's not in the league is because of his protest.

As for the waste of time and energy, that's a red herring. Find me one player, coach or front office person in San Francisco who says Kaepernik's protest had a negative impact on their season.

No one said he needed to be a future HOFer to be on a roster.

Why were the 49ers - a team with no QB - going to cut Kaepernick had he not opted out?

[wadesworld]

Yeah the whole "he's a distraction" is a line of grade A bullsh*t.  Kaepernick would improve a team like the Colts instantly.

To what extent?  The 49ers won an average of 5 games/year over the past 3 years with Kaepernick on their roster.

If people think he's good enough to help teams win games and deserves to be on a team's roster, isn't the only option that he's a distraction and that's why he's not on a team?  If it's not too bad to be on a team and he's also not a distraction, then what is it?

[GGGG]

Yes, he would improve the Colts...but they don't want to deal with all that comes along with signing him.

Then they're idiots.

[MU82]

Saying Kaepernick is not good enough to be on a roster is WAY different from saying that the potential distraction makes him not worth signing. The same thing hastened Tebow's departure from the NFL - owners loved the idea of Tebow but coaches and GMs hated being pressured by fans to play a decidedly inferior QB. Elway couldn't wait to dump Tebow and even Belichick determined Tebow wasn't worth the hassle. I think everybody here is objective enough to agree that Kaepernick is/was a much better pro QB than Tebow ever was or will be.

For the view of a fellow athlete, here is Steph Curry's take on the Kaepernick situation as told to Charlotte Observer columnist Scott Fowler before the Panthers' game at San Fran yesterday:

He definitely should be in the NFL. If you’ve been around the NFL, the top 64 quarterbacks, and he’s not one of them? Then I don’t know what game I’m watching.

Obviously his stance and his peaceful protest when he was playing here kind of shook up the world, and I think for the better. But hopefully he gets back in the league – because he deserves to be here and he deserves an opportunity to play. He’s in his prime and can make a team better.

One can agree or disagree with Curry, but disagreeing with him - or with those of us who agree with him - doesn't make him (or us) "wrong." It's just a different opinion.

If Kaepernick was a similarly talented NBA player, he never would have been blackballed, as that is a player's league. But the NFL is run by people who think each game is "war" and each opponent has to be "conquered." The owners and coaches are very much in control, and PR is everything.

One of the funny things is watching some of the same folks who whine constantly about the evils of "political correctness" defending NFL owners for this incredibly PC decision.

Still, in the end, I say that Kaepernick was free to protest and NFL owners are free not to employ him. It's self-defeating and hypocritical, but it's certainly their right.

I also say Kaep hurt himself by wearing socks depicting "pig cops," saying Trump and Clinton were equally racist, and not voting. To me, each of those things is significantly worse than kneeling during the anthem. If I'm an owner, I can defend a person's freedom to protest peacefully a lot easier than I could defend a person who has talked about cops being evil.

[Pakuni]

No one said he needed to be a future HOFer to be on a roster.
Why were the 49ers - a team with no QB - going to cut Kaepernick had he not opted out?

And yet I've only read about 100 times on this board (including a few posts ago) that "if he were Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers he would be on a team."
The 49ers were going to cut him because keeping him would have cost them a minimum $14.5 million and as much as $19.3 million. He could be the most patriotic American in the whole league and still get cut because of that deal.

[CTWarrior]

That's exactly what some are arguing.
When your argument boils down to "Kaepernik would need to be a future Hall of Famer to get a roster spot," you are admitting that the only reason he's not in the league is because of his protest.

As for the waste of time and energy, that's a red herring. Find me one player, coach or front office person in San Francisco who says Kaepernik's protest had a negative impact on their season.

The argument (it is not my argument) is that he is not worth the trouble that comes with him.  He has to be good enough to start (for that you'd better be a zone-read team rather than a drop back passing team with a lousy current QB) and increase your win total (which assumes you are a team that wants to increase its 2017 win total) to be worth it in my opinion.  For example, he might help the Jets win a game or two more than would McCown, but frankly 1-McCown is a traditional drop back passer which is what the Jets apparently want and 2-they'd rather have 1 win than 2 or 3.  He's a good fit as a back-up on a team with a QB who is similar in style to him.

I don't think that is a red herring.  What is a coach going to say yeah he was a distraction that I let affect my team?  That's not a good look for that coach.  Is a player going to say I lost my focus because of him?  That's not a good look either.

I'm not saying he is or isn't a distraction, but if that's not the reason why nobody wants him, what is?  To me it's got to be that or PR, both of which are legitimate reasons for a business.  I agree he's one of the best 64.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Say what you want Wades but Kaeps protests are obviously impacting something if we are still talking about on a Marquette basketball boards every after week one of the season.

[wadesworld]

Say what you want Wades but Kaeps protests are obviously impacting something if we are still talking about on a Marquette basketball boards every after week one of the season.

Therein lies the problem.  People are talking about him.  On the internet.  Not about the issue he was supposedly standing against and not actively out there making a difference in the community.

And yet I've only read about 100 times on this board (including a few posts ago) that "if he were Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers he would be on a team."
The 49ers were going to cut him because keeping him would have cost them a minimum $14.5 million and as much as $19.3 million. He could be the most patriotic American in the whole league and still get cut because of that deal.

Right.  Patriotic or not patriotic, he's not worth the money that he'd command.  Simply put, patriotic or not, he's not good enough on the football field to warrant paying him, kneeling or not kneeling.

[MerrittsMustache]

And yet I've only read about 100 times on this board (including a few posts ago) that "if he were Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers he would be on a team."
The 49ers were going to cut him because keeping him would have cost them a minimum $14.5 million and as much as $19.3 million. He could be the most patriotic American in the whole league and still get cut because of that deal.

Using star players probably skewed the point. How about this...If it were Kirk Cousins or Andy Dalton he'd be on an NFL roster too. Is that better? Point being, if he was good enough to be a solid starting QB, he'd be on a roster. He's a back-up/fringe starter so he's unemployed.

How much of an effort did SF make to bring him back? They chose Brian Hoyer and Matt Barkley over him!

[Pakuni]

Using star players probably skewed the point. How about this...If it were Kirk Cousins or Andy Dalton he'd be on an NFL roster too. Is that better? Point being, if he was good enough to be a solid starting QB, he'd be on a roster. He's a back-up/fringe starter so he's unemployed.

But he was a solid starting QB last year, even with a pretty atrocious group of skill players around him. The numbers don't lie.

Respectfully, I'm not sure what this argument is about at this point. Nobody here believes Kaepernick would be unemployed if he stood for the anthem last year, right? Surely a guy with a 17-to-4 TD to INT ratio and QB rating above 90 is worthy of a roster spot.

Whether you (like me) believe his unemployment is because NFL owners are cowardly in the face of the meathead element of their fanbase ... or (like you) believe it's because he would be too much of a distraction, his ability to play the game in and of itself is not what's keeping him out of the league, right?

Toss out all the qualifiers. He's not Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Andy Dalton or Kirk Cousins. He's Colin Kaepernick, and Colin Kaepernick is one of the 64 best QBs on the planet and should be in the NFL. 

[StillAWarrior]

But he was a solid starting QB last year, even with a pretty atrocious group of skill players around him. The numbers don't lie.

Respectfully, I'm not sure what this argument is about at this point. Nobody here believes Kaepernick would be unemployed if he stood for the anthem last year, right? Surely a guy with a 17-to-4 TD to INT ratio and QB rating above 90 is worthy of a roster spot.

Whether you (like me) believe his unemployment is because NFL owners are cowardly in the face of the meathead element of their fanbase ... or (like you) believe it's because he would be too much of a distraction, his ability to play the game in and of itself is not what's keeping him out of the league, right?

Toss out all the qualifiers. He's not Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Andy Dalton or Kirk Cousins. He's Colin Kaepernick, and Colin Kaepernick is one of the 64 best QBs on the planet and should be in the NFL.

Indisputable, as far as I'm concerned.

[MU82]

But he was a solid starting QB last year, even with a pretty atrocious group of skill players around him. The numbers don't lie.

Respectfully, I'm not sure what this argument is about at this point. Nobody here believes Kaepernick would be unemployed if he stood for the anthem last year, right? Surely a guy with a 17-to-4 TD to INT ratio and QB rating above 90 is worthy of a roster spot.

Whether you (like me) believe his unemployment is because NFL owners are cowardly in the face of the meathead element of their fanbase ... or (like you) believe it's because he would be too much of a distraction, his ability to play the game in and of itself is not what's keeping him out of the league, right?

Toss out all the qualifiers. He's not Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Andy Dalton or Kirk Cousins. He's Colin Kaepernick, and Colin Kaepernick is one of the 64 best QBs on the planet and should be in the NFL.

Bingo.

Obviously, I don't blame San Fran for being unwilling to pay that ridiculous salary. But has anybody heard/read from either Kaepernick or his agent what he realistically expects to get paid? Serious question, as I have not heard.

[Benny B]

Yes, he would improve the Colts...but they don't want to a deal with all that comes along with signing him.

FIFY.

Kapernick is better than just about any backup QB in the NFL right now.  He might even be better than the bottom third of the starting QB's out there.  All of that is irrelevant because Colin is/was reportedly asking for a base salary of upwards of $10M, which would put him ahead of guys like Cutler, Flacco and Luck ($5M, $6M, and $7M, respectively).  Keep in mind, Kaepernick opted out of a $14.5M contract; granted, SF was likely to cut him had he not opted out, but don't ever underestimate the ego of an NFL quarterback... but ego or not, Kaepernick's market is/was around the $6-8M range, and rarely do you find a healthy player taking a 25-50% pay cut from one year to the next, regardless of the circumstances.

Most NFL teams are willing to put up with a player who might be a distraction, but no NFL team is going to overpay for a distraction.

[Pakuni]

FIFY.

Kapernick is better than just about any backup QB in the NFL right now.  He might even be better than the bottom third of the starting QB's out there.  All of that is irrelevant because Colin is/was reportedly asking for a base salary of upwards of $10M, which would put him ahead of guys like Cutler, Flacco and Luck ($5M, $6M, and $7M, respectively). 

That $10 million figure has been refuted numerous times by numerous sources. It likely was the result of a leak by the 49ers.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/16/kawakami-colin-kaepernick-seattles-interest-and-a-guess-at-who-circulated-that-false-10m-asking-price/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/28/source-completely-false-to-say-kaepernick-has-asked-for-9-10-million-per-year/

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/colin-kaepernick-shannon-sharpe-harry-edwards-san-francisco-49ers-contract-demands-051317

Secondly, base salaries are meaningless. Total cash is what matters. Yes, Andrew Luck has a base salary of $7 million. But he's getting another $12 million in roster and signing bonuses and other guarantees. His total compensation for 2017 is $27 million. 
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/andrew-luck-9811/

Flacco's base is $6 million, but he's getting another $17 million in other compensation this year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/joe-flacco-4000/

So, no Kaepernick did not demand $10 million on the free agent market, and no, a $10 million contract would not pay him more than Andrew Luck and Joe Flacco.

Most NFL teams are willing to put up with a player who might be a distraction, but no NFL team is going to overpay for a distraction.

Yes, this is true.