Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So you still want to force women to carry terminal babies to term? That seriously doesn’t sound like you, Tony.

If a baby dies in utero and doesn't trigger labor, that's not an abortion. That's a miscarriage.

Half delivering the baby and jabbing a metal instrument into the base of the baby's skull is an abortion.

[Pakuni]

Outlawing late term abortion except to save the life of the mother.

Sounds like that's effectively the case now.

How common is it?
Very rare. The most recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that about 1.3 percent of abortions performed in the United States in 2015 occurred in or after the 21st week of pregnancy. Abortions after 24 weeks comprise less than one percent of all abortions. When they occur, it is usually because the fetus has been found to have a fatal condition that could not be detected earlier, such as a severe malformation of the brain, or because the mother’s life or health is at serious risk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-trump.html

[naginiF]

What's a common sense abortion law?

I'll start the ball rolling (even though it's giving Lenny the out) with caveat #1 that I'm not an licensed  MD so some of the terminology may not be perfect and caveat #2 that as a man my POV means substantially less than a woman's and there is no way a man can fully understand the weight of this decision.

First break down the conversation into "medically needed/Dr recommended" and "on demand" abortions:

Medically needed/Dr recommended - at any point that a pregnancy either threatens a woman's life, her wellness, or the fetus is not survivable the decision to continue with the pregnancy or abort lies with the woman, her physician, and any person (spouse, family, friend, other, etc) the woman chooses to confer with.

On demand - if a woman is pregnant <20 weeks it should be her choice to end or carry to completion. 20 weeks is a) enough time to figure out if you are actually pregnant and b) enough time to grapple with this immensely difficult decision.

Second discuss the realities of when abortions happen..... <1% after 20 weeks, 92.2% ~<12 weeks, and 6.9% between 14-20 weeks. https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

Third address the talking points:
- .8% of abortions are after 20 weeks, you can assume the vast majority are medically needed/Dr recommended. No rational person advocates for on demand late term abortions, it's a boogey man.
- there is a rational argument to be made between 13 and 20 weeks. If the proper education, accessibility to health care, and support for the woman were provided I assume most people with my "20 week" view would be fine with 13 weeks.
- an electronic spasm is no a heartbeat and a heartbeat does not = life. If either of these were true we'd have vastly different approaches to end of life

[jesmu84]

Let’s say it together, Smitty: “The NRA and right wing republicans fight sensible gun laws and Planned Parenthood and left wing democrats fight sensible abortion laws”

Now we’ll both sleep better tonight, a’ina?

You said common sense was late term abortion.

Can you provide evidence that left wing democrats in Congress have voted against late term abortion legislation?

Can you provide evidence that planned Parenthood has lobbied against late term abortion legislation?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

You said common sense was late term abortion.

Can you provide evidence that left wing democrats in Congress have voted against late term abortion legislation?

Can you provide evidence that planned Parenthood has lobbied against late term abortion legislation?

Christ on a cheesecake, man.  Can't you just google something you want to know?

[lawdog77]

Table 13 shows number of abortions 21 weeks or greater. There were 5315 reported in 2018. That's a pretty large number.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm#T12_down

[Pakuni]

Table 13 shows number of abortions 21 weeks or greater. There were 5315 reported in 2018. That's a pretty large number.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm#T12_down

It's a tiny number relative to total pregnancies. Heck, it's a tiny number relative to total abortions (1%).
And the question is, how many of those would be for reasons other than the health of the mother or the lack of viability of the fetus? (I'm assuming you guys don't believe it's "common sense" for force a woman to complete a pregnancy and give birth to an unviable fetus ... that seems unimaginably cruel).

Lastly, 43 states already have laws prohibiting abortions at some point in the pregnancy, so it seems that if Democrats really are fighting "common sense" abortion laws as we've been told, they're doing a pretty crappy job of it.

[lawdog77]

It's a tiny number relative to total pregnancies. Heck, it's a tiny number relative to total abortions (1%).
And the question is, how many of those would be for reasons other than the health of the mother or the lack of viability of the fetus? (I'm assuming you guys don't believe it's "common sense" for force a woman to complete a pregnancy and give birth to an unviable fetus ... that seems unimaginably cruel).

Lastly, 43 states already have laws prohibiting abortions at some point in the pregnancy, so it seems that if Democrats really are fighting "common sense" abortion laws as we've been told, they're doing a pretty crappy job of it.

I'm not arguing Dems vs Republicans. I am stating to casually say 5315 fetuses is not a big deal, or a tiny number, to me is a really crappy thing to say. Heck, even if 90% of that number are unviable, that's still 531 viable fetuses.

[Pakuni]

I'm not arguing Dems vs Republicans. I am stating to casually say 5315 fetuses is not a big deal, or a tiny number, to me is a really crappy thing to say. Heck, even if 90% of that number are unviable, that's still 531 viable fetuses.

1. I was referring to Lenny's claim that Democrats fight what he calls common sense abortion laws.
2. I feel you're being disingenuous, or at least misreading. I said nothing about whether 5,315 fetuses is or is not a big deal. I pointed out that, relative to the total abortions, it's a tiny figure. This is a fact, not a crappy thing to say.
3. I have a hard time reconciling the wailing over 5,315 fetuses, when it often comes from the same people who dismiss 14,000+ killings of living human beings a year via gun homicides as the price of freedom.

[muwarrior69]

1. I was referring to Lenny's claim that Democrats fight what he calls common sense abortion laws.
2. I feel you're being disingenuous, or at least misreading. I said nothing about whether 5,315 fetuses is or is not a big deal. I pointed out that, relative to the total abortions, it's a tiny figure. This is a fact, not a crappy thing to say.
3. I have a hard time reconciling the wailing over 5,315 fetuses, when it often comes from the same people who dismiss 14,000+ killings of living human beings a year via gun homicides as the price of freedom.

Fetuses/unborn babies are not living human beings?

[Pakuni]

Fetuses/unborn babies are not living human beings?

Definition of fetus
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus

[muwarrior69]

Definition of fetus
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus

I guess merrian-webster does not follow the science: it is a developing human being from the time of conception.

[Pakuni]

I guess merrian-webster does not follow the science: it is a developing human being from the time of conception.

Yes, a developing human being.
I get that you really just want to argue semantics here, but it doesn't really affect my point, does it?

[Warriors4ever]

Why does it not surprise me that much that a thread ostensibly about incidents of black men being killed by cops ( accidentally or otherwise) has morphed into a bunch of men opining on abortion.

[Pakuni]

Why does it not surprise me that much that a thread ostensibly about incidents of black men being killed by cops ( accidentally or otherwise) has morphed into a bunch of men opining on abortion.

In a never-before-seen turn of events, a Superbar thread has wandered off topic.

Given that most of us are neither Black or cops, we probably shouldn't have even started this discussion.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Why does it not surprise me that much that a thread ostensibly about incidents of black men being killed by cops ( accidentally or otherwise) has morphed into a bunch of men opining on abortion.

Because cowards who have no answers and don’t really want to have an honest discussion on the topic immediately have to try to change the subject with cowardly deflections

[HutchwasClutch]

Because cowards who have no answers and don’t really want to have an honest discussion on the topic immediately have to try to change the subject with cowardly deflections

As if the topic hasn’t been discussed ad nauseam already, both sides.  It was post #908 that first brought up abortion. 

This is simply Scoop being Scoop on the 180 degree shift. 

[vogue65]

The most pathetic repeated comment ever made by a Pope.
Don't practice birth control.
Back in my day the argument at Marquette "theology" classes was not abortion, it was birthing at Catholic hospitals.   
I wonder what the arguments will be like in 50 years.
The old fool Wisconsin cardinal without an innoculation and enjoying his resporator and Covid while saying the rosary is a good example of "church" teaching. 

[Billy Hoyle]

Fetuses/unborn babies are not living human beings?

nope.

[Pakuni]

Institutional racism is no longer a thing?

https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-technology-business-race-and-ethnicity-mortgages-2d3d40d5751f933a88c1e17063657586

An investigation by The Markup has found that lenders in 2019 were more likely to deny home loans to people of color than to white people with similar financial characteristics — even when we controlled for newly available financial factors that the mortgage industry has in the past said would explain racial disparities in lending.
Holding 17 different factors steady in a complex statistical analysis of more than 2 million conventional mortgage applications for home purchases reported to the government, we found that, in comparison to similar white applicants, lenders were:
● 80% more likely to reject Black applicants
● 70% more likely to deny Native American applicants
● 50% more likely to turn down Asian/Pacific Islander applicants
● 40% more likely to reject Latino applicants
These are national rates.
When we examined cities and towns individually, we found disparities in 90 metros spanning every region of the country. Lenders were 150% more likely to reject Black applicants in Chicago than similar white applicants there. Lenders were more than 200% more likely to reject Latino applicants than white applicants in Waco, Texas, and to reject Asian and Pacific Islander applicants than white ones in Port St. Lucie, Florida. And they were 110% more likely to deny Native American applicants in Minneapolis.

[Jockey]

I brought household ownership earlier and was told laws (such as redlining) had been changed to prevent discrimination from happening. Of course, we knew that was nonsense. This article confirms that.

[lawdog77]

The report states people with similar financial characteristics. Not true at all. The report does not include individuals FICO score. Kind of an important thing needed.

[Pakuni]

The report states people with similar financial characteristics. Not true at all. The report does not include individuals FICO score. Kind of an important thing needed.

Except (from the full version on The Markup's website):
Government regulators do have access to credit scores. The CFPB analyzed 2019 HMDA data and found that accounting for credit scores does not eliminate lending disparities for people of color.
"Black applicants were 50% to 120% more likely to be denied than white applicants with the same credit score.

https://themarkup.org/denied/2021/08/25/the-secret-bias-hidden-in-mortgage-approval-algorithms

Is it your belief that Black and white applicants with similar incomes, similar dent-to-income ratios and similarities across 15 other financial factors have vastly different FICO scores?

Lastly, it's some kind of chutzpah for the lenders to criticize this report for not including FICO scores when it's those same lenders who prevented the authors from including FICO scores. It's like your spouse turning off your phone then complaining when you don't answer their texts.

[rocket surgeon]

Except (from the full version on The Markup's website):
Government regulators do have access to credit scores. The CFPB analyzed 2019 HMDA data and found that accounting for credit scores does not eliminate lending disparities for people of color.
"Black applicants were 50% to 120% more likely to be denied than white applicants with the same credit score.

https://themarkup.org/denied/2021/08/25/the-secret-bias-hidden-in-mortgage-approval-algorithms

Is it your belief that Black and white applicants with similar incomes, similar dent-to-income ratios and similarities across 15 other financial factors have vastly different FICO scores?

Lastly, it's some kind of chutzpah for the lenders to criticize this report for not including FICO scores when it's those same lenders who prevented the authors from including FICO scores. It's like your spouse turning off your phone then complaining when you don't answer their texts.

  you realize where most of "big money's" money goes to right?  the virtue signalers are the ones who are perpetuating this so called "institutional racism" you are up in arms about.  they're holding all these woke seminars, paying big dollars to "woke" ya'll up, then go back to doing what they want to do anyway, make money... but no way they can be racists cuz some of their best friends are...never mind.   

[Babybluejeans]

  you realize where most of "big money's" money goes to right?  the virtue signalers are the ones who are perpetuating this so called "institutional racism" you are up in arms about.  they're holding all these woke seminars, paying big dollars to "woke" ya'll up, then go back to doing what they want to do anyway, make money... but no way they can be racists cuz some of their best friends are...never mind.

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c


“…what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”