Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[Pakuni]

I'm not allowed to believe that ideologically we've veered too far from each other in certain other spots? It isn't a moment thing it's is at least 40yrs in the making maybe longer.

You're allowed to think whatever you want.  It's just a silly thought.  The ideological gap between 85 percent of the country is small and nobody is taking up arms against their neighbors because they disagree on the corporate tax rate or background checks at gun shows.
Historically speaking, this country was far more divided 40-50 years ago than today.

[Galway Eagle]

You're allowed to think whatever you want.  It's just a silly thought.  The ideological gap between 85 percent of the country is small and nobody is taking up arms against their neighbors because they disagree on the corporate tax rate or background checks at gun shows.
Historically speaking, this country was far more divided 40-50 years ago than today.

Do you have anything to back this up? Because it seems to me that this isn't true Circa 1981 post carter who was basically a red democrat, or Reagan who created Reagan Democrats. maybe circa 1971 given the Vietnam war and such. Of course we didn't have our own president insight an insurrection because he was a sore loser but there's enough other things going on then that I may agree and have said the same thing then.

[Hards Alumni]

Do you have anything to back this up? Because it seems to me that this isn't true Circa 1981 post carter who was basically a red democrat, or Reagan who created Reagan Democrats. maybe circa 1971 given the Vietnam war and such. Of course we didn't have our own president insight an insurrection because he was a sore loser but there's enough other things going on then that I may agree and have said the same thing then.

1968 was a pretty bad year, my man.

[Galway Eagle]

1968 was a pretty bad year, my man.

That's outside the 50 year parameter Pakuni listed.

[Uncle Rico]

You're allowed to think whatever you want.  It's just a silly thought.  The ideological gap between 85 percent of the country is small and nobody is taking up arms against their neighbors because they disagree on the corporate tax rate or background checks at gun shows.
Historically speaking, this country was far more divided 40-50 years ago than today.

2015 was a pretty low point for America when the Badgers played Duke in the title game. 

[The Lens]

  never said that was the biggest problem, but you guys really struggle with some of the points being brought up here then shift to economy.  you are the one doing the deflection.  if you want to start a thread on economic disparity "amongst" communities, let's do it.  you want to start a thread on racism permeating our society at all levels in 2021-start one up.  but this thread, as i understood it was about black people getting killed by the police. 

  that BLM thing raised close to $100 million.  we don't know for sure because they won't open the books, but where is that money going?  there have been very worthy inner city groups asking for help and,,, crickets.  then you see one of their leaders(patrisse khan cullers) buying multiple homes(4 homes for $3.2 million), one of them in a very prominent white area(topanga canyon) in california...racism must not be a problem there. 

the george floyd verdict should be significant from the standpoint that MOST everyone agreed with it including myself.  that video was beyond disgusting, but the media wants to portray us as polarizing?  no no no, but the video of the 15 year old getting shot with a knife midair targeting another young black girl is polarizing?  this wasn't based a story being told, this was based on a number of videos from different angles.  it was a heroic act by the cop.  the fact that there wasn't any collateral damage is remarkable.

  just like MOST can be honest about what we saw in the george floyd vidoes, why can't they be honest about the most recent video?   lebron needed to go out there and say listen, the cop did his job and protected a life (or lives).  we need respected leaders to tell the truth.  ALL LIVES MATTER (ALM)

 

roc, I don't think anyone on here is defending the clowns at BLM, Inc.  We defend the concept that Black Lives Matter.  If I started a "charity" called Lyme Disease is Bad and used proceeds to funnel money to Badger Football would you automatically default to Lyme Disease is Good? No one is saying support BLM GN, what the vast majority of people are saying is listen to the struggles of those amongst us who are disenfranchised.  Don't let some opportunists who stole the name for their own cause ruin a good thing.

[MU82]

Based on what we know today, I don't see how anybody can blame the Columbus police officer for shooting the 15-year-old with the knife. Sad outcome, but seems pretty unavoidable if one doesn't want the 13-year-old to get stabbed.

I take exception to those who claim that everybody who wants changes to the way we do policing in America "hates cops" or judges all incidents with similar lenses. I mean, I just said that based on the information we have the shooting of the Black 15-year-old was justified ... and I am very much for improving our policing policies and training in this country.

I do understand how many Black people might have an initial reaction of "Here we go again" whenever a cop kills a Black person because system racism is so prevalent in law enforcement.

[Pakuni]

2015 was a pretty low point for America when the Badgers played Duke in the title game.

Fair.

[Hards Alumni]

That's outside the 50 year parameter Pakuni listed.

Sorry, I didn't see he set parameters.  But we were far more divided in the 60s than today.

[cheebs09]

Based on what we know today, I don't see how anybody can blame the Columbus police officer for shooting the 15-year-old with the knife. Sad outcome, but seems pretty unavoidable if one doesn't want the 13-year-old to get stabbed.

I take exception to those who claim that everybody who wants changes to the way we do policing in America "hates cops" or judges all incidents with similar lenses. I mean, I just said that based on the information we have the shooting of the Black 15-year-old was justified ... and I am very much for improving our policing policies and training in this country.

I do understand how many Black people might have an initial reaction of "Here we go again" whenever a cop kills a Black person because system racism is so prevalent in law enforcement.

I agree. One thing that always seems to come up when the decision to charge an officer with a crime is they did it by the book or in line with the training. However, it doesn’t seem like we look at the book enough to see if the training is outdated or could be altered to avoid these outcomes.

It also does seem like the training is a fallback, but is resorted to quicker for some races than others.

It’s easy for me to judge from a distance having never been in any sort of situation like that. Or officers have seen enough go bad that they are overly cautious when defending themselves.

I don’t think all these officers involved in situations like this are racist. I think there’s unconscious biases or other factors causing them to approach similar situations differently, which makes escalation much more likely.

I mean the reactions by officers to Rittenhouse or protestors in Michigan waving guns around was much different than reactions in other protests.

[MuggsyB]

Based on what we know today, I don't see how anybody can blame the Columbus police officer for shooting the 15-year-old with the knife. Sad outcome, but seems pretty unavoidable if one doesn't want the 13-year-old to get stabbed.

I take exception to those who claim that everybody who wants changes to the way we do policing in America "hates cops" or judges all incidents with similar lenses. I mean, I just said that based on the information we have the shooting of the Black 15-year-old was justified ... and I am very much for improving our policing policies and training in this country.

I do understand how many Black people might have an initial reaction of "Here we go again" whenever a cop kills a Black person because system racism is so prevalent in law enforcement.

How about waiting more than 5 mins after these incidents and for an investigation to be completed?  I think we can all agree on that?  They're still investigating this particular attack.

As for "systemic police racism" even if you accept this as fact, and that we have to make changes based on this so called fact, you have to make an honest assessment about whether certain policies will make things considerably worse.  If fewer cops kill unarmed black citizens, or all citizens for that matter, but there are thousands  more homicides, car jackings, assaults, robberies, rapes, or what have you, we're looking at a total catastrophe.  Especially if policing is federalized.

If we are going to calibrate laws that could help in these situations it requires a comprehensive plan that starts with relationships between police and communities.  Not with a narrative that cops are gunning down innocent black citizens indiscriminately.  Police need more training and funding, not less.  No one is going to want to be a cop if they feel they can get sued in any altercation or if they feel they cannot do their job in dangerous encounters.

Police are human.  They are not perfect, some are scumbags, and some are racists.  The same is true of our entire society but when we make mistakes, or abuse power, the end result isn't death.  This is a sad truth.  But if you do not have them enforcing the laws of the land we no longer have a civil society.  If we can move the needle at all this must be a comprehensive discussion which includes how to deal with potential police encounters and how one should conduct themselves. 

[JWags85]

You're allowed to think whatever you want.  It's just a silly thought.  The ideological gap between 85 percent of the country is small and nobody is taking up arms against their neighbors because they disagree on the corporate tax rate or background checks at gun shows.
Historically speaking, this country was far more divided 40-50 years ago than today.

Totally, I mean think of “swing states”.  Elections are turned because there are large swaths of people, and even states, that vote differently election to election.  That’s not a country that is hopelessly divided. The fringe 10% in each side who won’t even befriend someone with a different political ideology aren’t the driving force

[Pakuni]

That's outside the 50 year parameter Pakuni listed.

Ah, yes. My counting was off a few digits. My apologies. And thank you for focusing on my math, and not the actual point that was being made.

Anyhow, between the 60-80s, this country saw:
- A hugely unpopular war which led to massive civil unrest that, on the extremes, included deadly violence by leftists targeting police and other institutions
- The military killing of American citizens at anti-war protests
- The Civil Rights movement and the backlash against it that included church bombings, lynchings and countless murders, including of children
- The military being deployed into states against those state's wishes to enforce civil rights decrees
- The assassination and attempted assassination of multiple presidents and numerous other national political figures
- Enormous, days-long riots in numerous cities that left dozens of Americans dead (but y'all clutching pearls cause the Wendy's got burned down and someone looted the Apple store)
- Soaring crime rates far above where they stand today
- Massive cultural shifts over topics like sexuality, religion, race, etc.

Anyhow, what's your vision for the impending breakup of the United States? Are conservatives living in California and Illinois going to be forcibly deported to Wyoming and Mississippi? Do the 10.5 million Biden voters in Texas and Florida get rounded up into internment camps and eventually shipped off to the Pacific Northwest?
Just trying to get a grip on how this all goes down.

[Hards Alumni]

How about waiting more than 5 mins after these incidents and for an investigation to be completed?  I think we can all agree on that?  They're still investigating this particular attack.

As for "systemic police racism" even if you accept this as fact, and that we have to make changes based on this so called fact, you have to make an honest assessment about whether certain policies will make things considerably worse.  If fewer cops kill unarmed black citizens, or all citizens for that matter, but there are thousands  more homicides, car jackings, assaults, robberies, rapes, or what have you, we're looking at a total catastrophe.  Especially if policing is federalized.

If we are going to calibrate laws that could help in these situations it requires a comprehensive plan that starts with relationships between police and communities.  Not with a narrative that cops are gunning down innocent black citizens indiscriminately.  Police need more training and funding, not less.  No one is going to want to be a cop if they feel they can get sued in any altercation or if they feel they cannot do their job in dangerous encounters.

Police are human.  They are not perfect, some are scumbags, and some are racists.  The same is true of our entire society but when we make mistakes, or abuse power, the end result isn't death.  This is a sad truth.  But if you do not have them enforcing the laws of the land we no longer have a civil society.  If we can move the needle at all this must be a comprehensive discussion which includes how to deal with potential police encounters and how one should conduct themselves.

Bolded is a fantasy you've dreamed up without any sources or facts backing it up.

Italicized is also fantasy.  No one is suggesting that cops are gunning down black citizens indiscriminately.  I agree, police need more training, but they sure as hell don't need more funding.  What do they need more money for?  You've seen the arsenal they roll with... that stuff doesn't come cheap.  Should more of that money be used to pay police and train them instead of buying APCs etc?  Hell yes.  But departments don't do that.  They buy junk and show it off like a new toy. 

Underlined I think we can agree on.  But something has to be done.  We can't throw our hands up in the air and expect things to organically change.

What would be your opinion of a council of citizens that got to review police officer behavior and track complaints against officers?  I think that would be a great first step to combat the 'blue wall' of cops (good or bad) protecting bad cops.  What do you think of a civilian oversight committee?

[cheebs09]

How about waiting more than 5 mins after these incidents and for an investigation to be completed?  I think we can all agree on that?  They're still investigating this particular attack.

As for "systemic police racism" even if you accept this as fact, and that we have to make changes based on this so called fact, you have to make an honest assessment about whether certain policies will make things considerably worse.  If fewer cops kill unarmed black citizens, or all citizens for that matter, but there are thousands  more homicides, car jackings, assaults, robberies, rapes, or what have you, we're looking at a total catastrophe.  Especially if policing is federalized.

If we are going to calibrate laws that could help in these situations it requires a comprehensive plan that starts with relationships between police and communities.  Not with a narrative that cops are gunning down innocent black citizens indiscriminately.  Police need more training and funding, not less.  No one is going to want to be a cop if they feel they can get sued in any altercation or if they feel they cannot do their job in dangerous encounters.

Police are human.  They are not perfect, some are scumbags, and some are racists.  The same is true of our entire society but when we make mistakes, or abuse power, the end result isn't death.  This is a sad truth.  But if you do not have them enforcing the laws of the land we no longer have a civil society.  If we can move the needle at all this must be a comprehensive discussion which includes how to deal with potential police encounters and how one should conduct themselves.

I feel that’s a pretty drastic take. Camden, New Jersey gave a blueprint on what “defunding the police” could look like. They moved funds destined for the police department to other social services and the officers really worked to make themselves a part of the community. It made huge improvements in a very heavy crime city.

I don’t think it’s what you meant, but if a few instances of police killing a criminal is what it takes to keep other crime in check, that’s pretty scary.

Camden tried to solve the root cause of some of the crime issues rather than ramping up the policing of the symptoms. It may not be able to work everywhere, but it’s a great look at some options out there other than just shrugging our shoulders and saying that’s the price we pay for safety.

[Pakuni]

Totally, I mean think of “swing states”.  Elections are turned because there are large swaths of people, and even states, that vote differently election to election.  That’s not a country that is hopelessly divided. The fringe 10% in each side who won’t even befriend someone with a different political ideology aren’t the driving force

Yes, exactly.
People look and blue state/red state maps and think there's some kind of permanence to them. Yet 20 years ago, Illinois had a Republican governor and in the 1990s, the GOP controlled the governor's mansion and both houses of the legislature.
Over the past 50 years, the California governor's mansion has been controlled by Republicans more than Democrats.
The reality is, most states are pretty purple and 99 percent of Americans have zero interest in killing their neighbors because they voted for someone different.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Based on what we know today, I don't see how anybody can blame the Columbus police officer for shooting the 15-year-old with the knife. Sad outcome, but seems pretty unavoidable if one doesn't want the 13-year-old to get stabbed.

I'll be honest, other than the immediate visceral reaction to the news that a 15 year old girl was killed by a police...much of which has been walked back as more information came out...I haven't seen any criticism of the shooting. I think all reasonable people agree it was a justified shooting.

That being said, I don't think that means we can't have a conversation about what, if anything, could have been done better. That doesn't mean the shooting was unjustified, it's just a recognition that even a justified outcome can still be a terrible outcome and we should always reflect on how we can do better in the future.

[Babybluejeans]

Totally, I mean think of “swing states”.  Elections are turned because there are large swaths of people, and even states, that vote differently election to election.  That’s not a country that is hopelessly divided. The fringe 10% in each side who won’t even befriend someone with a different political ideology aren’t the driving force

This cannot be understated. And this is where the media is most culpable for the feeling of stark polarization -- by giving undue voice to the fringe who see no other option than civil war. The fact that the Jan. 6 insurrection caused nearly unanimous condemnation is proof that most folks are not looking to lay waste to the system, as wacky media personalities too often portray the other side as doing.

[MU82]

How about waiting more than 5 mins after these incidents and for an investigation to be completed?  I think we can all agree on that?  They're still investigating this particular attack.

As for "systemic police racism" even if you accept this as fact, and that we have to make changes based on this so called fact, you have to make an honest assessment about whether certain policies will make things considerably worse.  If fewer cops kill unarmed black citizens, or all citizens for that matter, but there are thousands  more homicides, car jackings, assaults, robberies, rapes, or what have you, we're looking at a total catastrophe.  Especially if policing is federalized.

If we are going to calibrate laws that could help in these situations it requires a comprehensive plan that starts with relationships between police and communities.  Not with a narrative that cops are gunning down innocent black citizens indiscriminately.  Police need more training and funding, not less.  No one is going to want to be a cop if they feel they can get sued in any altercation or if they feel they cannot do their job in dangerous encounters.

Police are human.  They are not perfect, some are scumbags, and some are racists.  The same is true of our entire society but when we make mistakes, or abuse power, the end result isn't death.  This is a sad truth.  But if you do not have them enforcing the laws of the land we no longer have a civil society.  If we can move the needle at all this must be a comprehensive discussion which includes how to deal with potential police encounters and how one should conduct themselves.

I enjoy your basketball takes, Muggs, but when it comes to controversial topics here in the Superbar, you tend to bring up wildly speculative what-ifs that almost surely will never happen because you apparently think doing so helps you prove your points. For example, the part I highlighted in red just isn't a thing, it isn't a logical either/or. But you apparently believe it gives you license to reject any possible changes because, well, WATCH OUT! THERE WILL BE MORE RAPE!!!

So while I agree with you on some of what you say here, so much of it is fearmongering and logical leaps.

[MU82]

I'll be honest, other than the immediate visceral reaction to the news that a 15 year old girl was killed by a police...much of which has been walked back as more information came out...I haven't seen any criticism of the shooting. I think all reasonable people agree it was a justified shooting.

That being said, I don't think that means we can't have a conversation about what, if anything, could have been done better. That doesn't mean the shooting was unjustified, it's just a recognition that even a justified outcome can still be a terrible outcome and we should always reflect on how we can do better in the future.

100%

[Galway Eagle]

Ah, yes. My counting was off a few digits. My apologies. And thank you for focusing on my math, and not the actual point that was being made.

For some reason I don't think you mean this.

Anyhow, what's your vision for the impending breakup of the United States? Are conservatives living in California and Illinois going to be forcibly deported to Wyoming and Mississippi? Do the 10.5 million Biden voters in Texas and Florida get rounded up into internment camps and eventually shipped off to the Pacific Northwest?
Just trying to get a grip on how this all goes down.

In every society there's disagreeing positions. If a person wanted to be left and live in the conservative country go for it. If a person wanted to be right and live in the liberal country go for it. The idea would be you'd have at least an option to see America in each party's ideal vision. what I'd prefer is not to have states that suck up way more money than they give and have woefully low education, high obesity, terrible infrastructure and yet critique every other state, the same states that block any advancement of federal programs, or common sense gun reform, the areas that every election cycle people suck up to saying "we'll bring back coal!" As if it's 1900 again, the same areas that have ignored the separation of church and state for years in their laws and school systems.

The list goes on but you see what I'm getting at, I could do without pretty much the entire south and most of the Rocky mountain states. I think differing views are healthy but there's too much much overrepresentation of rural people in the states.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

This cannot be understated. And this is where the media is most culpable for the feeling of stark polarization -- by giving undue voice to the fringe who see no other option than civil war. The fact that the Jan. 6 insurrection caused nearly unanimous condemnation is proof that most folks are not looking to lay waste to the system, as wacky media personalities too often portray the other side as doing.

Errr, I hate to tell you, but...
Republicans Still Sympathize With the Insurrection
They identify with the people who stormed the Capitol.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/04/republican-party-sympathize-capitol-insurrection.html

"In polls taken shortly after Jan. 6, roughly 15 percent of Republicans openly endorsed the rebellion. They did so even when survey questions explicitly called it an “attack,” “storming,” and “taking over” the Capitol. But other questions found broader support. Twenty-three percent of Republicans agreed that “in America today … it can be acceptable for people to use force or violence to try to achieve political goals.” Forty-two percent, when asked about the people who “took over” the Capitol, said they were “mostly peaceful.” Forty-five percent rejected the notion that “those who participated in the storming of the Capitol” were “criminals.” Instead, this half of the Republican base chose an alternative description of the invaders: “They went too far, but they had a point.” Fifty-one percent of Republicans said the party’s leaders “did not go far enough” on Jan. 6 to overturn the election. Only 27 percent called the attack terrorism, and only 19 percent called it a coup attempt.

These sentiments don’t seem to have waned. Since January, the share of Republicans who insist that President Joe Biden did not “legitimately win the election,” nearly 80 percent of the GOP, has hardly budged. Nearly two-thirds of Republicans say Trump won the election, and nearly 30 percent say they’ll “never accept” Biden as president. Two weeks ago, by a two-to-one ratio, Republicans reaffirmed their view that the election was “stolen” from Trump. Last week, 70 percent said there had been enough fraud to change the election’s outcome."

[JWags85]

I’m not calling it fake news, but I don’t put much weight behind a pretty left slanted publication like Slate picking and choosing tidbits from polls with less than 1000 Republican respondents and thus claiming vast majority of right of center Americans supported the insurrection and still think the election was stolen.  Same way I wouldn’t deeply take to heart an article from the Washington Examiner citing polls claiming liberal Americans overwhelmingly support the abolition of police forces

[#UnleashSean]

For some reason I don't think you mean this.

In every society there's disagreeing positions. If a person wanted to be left and live in the conservative country go for it. If a person wanted to be right and live in the liberal country go for it. The idea would be you'd have at least an option to see America in each party's ideal vision. what I'd prefer is not to have states that suck up way more money than they give and have woefully low education, high obesity, terrible infrastructure and yet critique every other state, the same states that block any advancement of federal programs, or common sense gun reform, the areas that every election cycle people suck up to saying "we'll bring back coal!" As if it's 1900 again, the same areas that have ignored the separation of church and state for years in their laws and school systems.

The list goes on but you see what I'm getting at, I could do without pretty much the entire south and most of the Rocky mountain states. I think differing views are healthy but there's too much much overrepresentation of rural people in the states.

Wow, that went full on stereotype fast.


Also, do you believe the South is just straight up right leaning inbreds or something? Like did you forget that Georgia voted Biden or that Florida passed a 15/hr min wage?

[Galway Eagle]

Wow, that went full on stereotype fast.


Also, do you believe the South is just straight up right leaning inbreds or something? Like did you forget that Georgia voted Biden or that Florida passed a 15/hr min wage?

What did Georgia do immediately after voting Biden? They passed some of the craziest voting restrictions out there. Idk why you're bringing up Florida or Georgia though while yes they're in the south they're clearly not the states I was really talking about.