Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Though some would argue, and I think rightly so, that enforcing traffic laws "serves and protects" the public.  Think it serves and protects the public if everyone is allowed to drive however, wherever and whenever they want?  Wrong way down one way streets?  No legal consequences for not obeying stop signs or lights?  How many times have you been on the road and some a$$hat cuts you off, is driving like a maniac or worse and you say out loud, where's a cop when you need him? 

Again, the cop shooting the guy is more than wrong, but it's insane to think we should do away with traffic laws and/or enforcement.

Pull people over who are doing unsafe things in cars.  Speeding, driving recklessly, etc. 

Don't pull people over for sh*t like expired tags, tinted windows, etc. 

[MuggsyB]

Only idiots want police "defunded" or "abolished." Very few Americans from any party truly want it. "Defund the police" was horrendous messaging. And it's simply not going to happen, certainly on any scale. So it's now just a talking point that gives license to say: "Anybody who thinks cops ever do anything wrong hates cops. They all just want to defund the police, anyway."

What we're doing now is not working, for cops or victims. What about that is incorrect? You think everything is working swimmingly? Thoughts and prayers cover things well enough, so eff it?

So in this case what exactly should have been done to satisfy you and many others?  She was charged for 2nd degree manslaughter and may very well do significant jail time.  There have been like 15 incidents where something like this happened over 20 yrs and other police officers have been jailed. 

Tell me specifically what you would do in this case because "this needs to stop"  You're insinuating that this case and others, because of the dynamic of a white officer and a black victim essentially means police are systemically racist as is much of the country.  Each of these cases are different and that particular dynamic doesn't prove if the response or motive was racist.

[MuggsyB]

So in this case what exactly should have been done to satisfy you and many others?  She was charged for 2nd degree manslaughter and may very well do significant jail time.  There have been like 15 incidents where something like this happened over 20 yrs and other police officers have been jailed. 

Tell me specifically what you would do in this case because "this needs to stop".  You're insinuating that this case and others, because of the dynamic of a white officer and a black victim essentially means police are systemically racist as is much of the country.  Each of these cases are different and that particular dynamic doesn't prove if the response or motive was racist.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So in this case what exactly should have been done to satisfy you and many others?  She was charged for 2nd degree manslaughter and may very well do significant jail time.  There have been like 15 incidents where something like this happened over 20 yrs and other police officers have been jailed. 

Tell me specifically what you would do in this case because "this needs to stop"  You're insinuating that this case and others, because of the dynamic of a white officer and a black victim essentially means police are systemically racist as is much of the country.  Each of these cases are different and that particular dynamic doesn't prove if the response or motive was racist.

Proposals about what should be done have been stated multiple times in this topic.  Perhaps take some time to read those responses instead of asking yet more questions.

[Lighthouse 84]

Sure it is, in your scenario no one died.  Also, if you add my proposal, the person who just robbed the store probably isn't pulling over for a traffic cop anyway, nor is traffic cop pulling that car over since he already has the description before he even exists the car and has called in everything.  You're creating a situation that doesn't exist with my proposal.  This isn't Mayberry 1950, all cop cars are kitted out with real time data, cameras, and tech.

You do realize that the real world isn't a movie, right?

You're right.  Don't stop anyone for any traffic offenses.  In fact, traffic laws shouldn't exist. 

This isn't a world of seashells and balloons either (except in 1977).  You do realize the real world isn't a fairytale, where no bad guys exist and no one commits any crime, right?

[jficke13]

You're right.  Don't stop anyone for any traffic offenses.  In fact, traffic laws shouldn't exist. 

This isn't a world of seashells and balloons either (except in 1977).  You do realize the real world isn't a fairytale, where no bad guys exist and no one commits any crime, right?

I don't think anyone's saying that. They are, however, saying that high stress, high danger encounters over low-value crimes are misallocated resources. Mail the ticket for the air freshener. Cost. Benefit. Risk. Reward.

[Hards Alumni]

You're right.  Don't stop anyone for any traffic offenses.  In fact, traffic laws shouldn't exist. 

This isn't a world of seashells and balloons either (except in 1977).  You do realize the real world isn't a fairytale, where no bad guys exist and no one commits any crime, right?

Where did I say don't stop anyone?  I said that the tech in police cruisers can ID a car before they are pulled over.  The branch of police that I'm talking about don't deal with dangerous situations.  They deal with traffic stops only, non violently, and not equipped with a firearm.  And the people who are pulled over are aware of this because in the real world we tell people.  If the traffic offender is deemed to be dangerous the non-violent officer follows at a safe distance until guys who are trained for this exact situation show up.

I guess what I'm saying is we need to stop making police officers the jack of all trades in terms of law enforcement.  Asking them to be able to respond to every situation isn't fair to them.  Just like there are different levels of health care professionals, there should be different levels of law enforcement because just like not every medical emergency needs to be solved in the ER, not every law enforcement situation needs a fully decked out intimidating officer.  I hope I'm making myself clear.

[MU82]

So in this case what exactly should have been done to satisfy you and many others?  She was charged for 2nd degree manslaughter and may very well do significant jail time.  There have been like 15 incidents where something like this happened over 20 yrs and other police officers have been jailed. 

Tell me specifically what you would do in this case because "this needs to stop"  You're insinuating that this case and others, because of the dynamic of a white officer and a black victim essentially means police are systemically racist as is much of the country.  Each of these cases are different and that particular dynamic doesn't prove if the response or motive was racist.

Please look at my previous posts. I don't feel like cutting and pasting.

And cops killing Black people is not the only way that systemic racism in law enforcement rears its ugly head. Unfortunately, it does seem to take the deaths -- and even then, horrific ones like Derek Chauvin's cold-blooded murder of George Floyd -- to open some people's eyes.

Of course, one has to be willing to open his or her eyes. I'd love for you to be such a person.

[MuggsyB]

Please look at my previous posts. I don't feel like cutting and pasting.

And cops killing Black people is not the only way that systemic racism in law enforcement rears its ugly head. Unfortunately, it does seem to take the deaths -- and even then, horrific ones like Derek Chauvin's cold-blooded murder of George Floyd -- to open some people's eyes.

Of course, one has to be willing to open his or her eyes. I'd love for you to be such a person.

I appreciate your passion but have read nothing in your posts that proves systemic racism from these particular incidents.  Even in the disgusting Chauvin/Floyd situation the dynamic of white/black doesn't prove anything.  Chauvin may very well be a virulent racist but be also could have done crap like this to all races across the city. 

Additionally, and we've had positive discussions about this before, why aren't you starting threads about children getting killed in drive-by shootings or about tragic deaths we see every weekend in our major cities?   Now, the general response to this is that they are not related....or we're just talking about police brutality but to me it should be part of the entire discussion.  Because I see no one protesting or rioting about these horrible murders and they happen 1000 times more frequently than police killing unarmed citizens. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

We are a country of law and order. Unless people don’t want to wear a mask. Those people are freedom fighters.

Do I have that right?

Yes. And the other out you have is if you want to storm the U.S. Capital to hang the Vice President over a fictitious issue. Totally OK.

[Hards Alumni]

I appreciate your passion but have read nothing in your posts that proves systemic racism from these particular incidents.  Even in the disgusting Chauvin/Floyd situation the dynamic of white/black doesn't prove anything.  Chauvin may very well be a virulent racist but be also could have done crap like this to all races across the city. 

Additionally, and we've had positive discussions about this before, why aren't you starting threads about children getting killed in drive-by shootings or about tragic deaths we see every weekend in our major cities?   Now, the general response to this is that they are not related....or we're just talking about police brutality but to me it should be part of the entire discussion.  Because I see no one protesting or rioting about these horrible murders and they happen 1000 times more frequently than police killing unarmed citizens.

Police are state officials, murderers are murders.  Stop falling into a trap of trying to equate our law enforcement system with those of murders.

[MuggsyB]

Police are state officials, murderers are murders.  Stop falling into a trap of trying to equate our law enforcement system with those of murders.

So you don't care about non-police murders?  I see.  Their job by its nature leads to tragic incidents.  And there are scumbag cops, and racists cops, and certainly incompetent cops.  But it is also true that if people were less combative and complied with officers, no matter how wrong or unfair you perceive then to be, these sad situations would happen far less frequently.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Additionally, and we've had positive discussions about this before, why aren't you starting threads about children getting killed in drive-by shootings or about tragic deaths we see every weekend in our major cities? 

This is typically a tactic people take when they don't want to address, or minimize, the issue at hand.

If you want to discuss this topic, start a thread.

[Pakuni]

Because I see no one protesting or rioting about these horrible murders and they happen 1000 times more frequently than police killing unarmed citizens.

Maybe because Fox News (and the news in general) doesn't cover them because they don't fit the narrative?
Peace marches, anti-violence protests, fundraisers, vigils, etc., take place quite often in Chicago neighborhoods.

Two more points:
1. Acting as if police killings of unarmed citizens are no different than some random gang shooting in Englewood and deserves the same attention is absurd and entirely misses the point.
2. Those who cry loudest about "black-on-black" or "inner city" crime every time a cops kills a person of color are usually the same people who fight hardest against steps that could be taken to reduce that crime. Because they don't really care about inner city crime, they just want to change the subject.

[MuggsyB]

This is typically a tactic people take when they don't want to address, or minimize, the issue at hand.

If you want to discuss this topic, start a thread.

We disagree, I'm not minimizing anything.  For example the traffic stop suggestion for cops that you and others have proposed is absolutely ridiculous imo. 

[Hards Alumni]

So you don't care about non-police murders?  I see.  Their job by its nature leads to tragic incidents.  And there are scumbag cops, and racists cops, and certainly incompetent cops.  But it is also true that if people were less combative and complied with officers, no matter how wrong or unfair you perceive then to be, these sad situations would happen far less frequently.

No, that isn't what I said at all.  People protest injustices meted out by the state.  Don't be silly.

[Hards Alumni]

We disagree, I'm not minimizing anything.  For example the traffic stop suggestion for cops that you and others have proposed is absolutely ridiculous imo.

Then explain why it can't work, and what your alternative solution is.  Unless you're happy with the status quo?

[MuggsyB]

Maybe because Fox News (and the news in general) doesn't cover them because they don't fit the narrative?
Peace marches, anti-violence protests, fundraisers, vigils, etc., take place quite often in Chicago neighborhoods.

Two more points:
1. Acting as if police killings of unarmed citizens are no different than some random gang shooting in Englewood and deserves the same attention is absurd and entirely misses the point.
2. Those who cry loudest about "black-on-black" or "inner city" crime every time a cops kills a person of color are usually the same people who fight hardest against steps that could be taken to reduce that crime. Because they don't really care about inner city crime, they just want to change the subject.

They absolutely are different but it's offensive that you would suggest I don't care about inner city crime.  I absolutely do care and the roots of these issues have commonalities.  And both Liberal and Conservative news sources don't discuss it for different reasons. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

We disagree, I'm not minimizing anything.  For example the traffic stop suggestion for cops that you and others have proposed is absolutely ridiculous imo. 

Real in depth response.

[MU82]

I appreciate your passion but have read nothing in your posts that proves systemic racism from these particular incidents.  Even in the disgusting Chauvin/Floyd situation the dynamic of white/black doesn't prove anything.  Chauvin may very well be a virulent racist but be also could have done crap like this to all races across the city. 

Additionally, and we've had positive discussions about this before, why aren't you starting threads about children getting killed in drive-by shootings or about tragic deaths we see every weekend in our major cities?   Now, the general response to this is that they are not related....or we're just talking about police brutality but to me it should be part of the entire discussion.  Because I see no one protesting or rioting about these horrible murders and they happen 1000 times more frequently than police killing unarmed citizens.

Because one has nothing to do with the other.

We rely upon our police to protect and serve us. We play their salaries. They work for us. When somebody we pay to protect and serve us instead terrorizes us, it is a breach of public trust.

Trying to use other crimes or criminals to somehow justify bad and/or careless cops is a bad look, Muggs. Trying to play gotcha: "Oh, then you don't care about other murders" is beneath you.

It's like saying, "If you get worked up because a priest rapes a dozen little boys, it proves you don't care about all the other rapes that aren't done by priests, the ones that happen 1000 times more frequently." It's false logic and totally unrelated.

[MuggsyB]

Then explain why it can't work, and what your alternative solution is.  Unless you're happy with the status quo?

Did I say I was "happy" about this?  Ever?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Did I say I was "happy" about this?  Ever?

Well you seem to make plenty of excuses for why the status quo can't change.  Or at least you label them "ridiculous" without context.

[mu_hilltopper]

You're right, shoot everyone.  I'm done trying to convince people that what we're doing is wrong.   It is unfathomable to me that you can look at the video and think, "Whoopsie daisy! She had a bad day."  You know who had a worse day?  The dead guy and his family.

I've said from the beginning that this was probably an accident, but that we need to do things to make sure it doesn't happen again.  I've clearly laid out what I think should be done, and what I get in response is dismissal. 

I understand you don't want to be in the business of second guessing split decisions that police have to make in the heat of the moment, but as a society, we need to be doing exactly that.

No one said "shoot everyone."  No one said Wright didn't have a "worse day."

I don't understand .. you're dismissing the "whoopsie daisy" argument, but then say it was probably an accident.    Which is it? 

I apologize for not finding what you laid out "needs to be done" as you've posted a ton in this thread.  Could you link to it?

[Pakuni]

They absolutely are different but it's offensive that you would suggest I don't care about inner city crime.  I absolutely do care and the roots of these issues have commonalities.  And both Liberal and Conservative news sources don't discuss it for different reasons.

I didn't throw you into my second point.

[shoothoops]

Did I say I was "happy" about this?  Ever?

What are your solutions? Would you list your solutions? It's easy to say no.to this or that. Offer a plan, provide a solution.

There is an old saying that few things are less productive than complaint without change.