Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[Galway Eagle]

  i did tower, if you would read the link as well-total line of duty deaths-97

  so are we minimizing a death if it is linked under covid?  heart attack? 911 related? do those not count?  these are their statistics, not mine.  i merely posted what has been recorded. 

   maybe they got covid while performing their duties, unlike teachers, who refused to go back to work despite the science.  they had to go to work.  their union didn't argue not until certain conditions were met.

   heart attacks?  find me the research that says this wasn't work related and i will scratch it off the list-2

  911 related-1  i are you to touch that one

so are the cop-haters only counting the ones like the state patrol in new mexico who was pulling someone over for a traffic related offense, not because he was brown, and got pulverized with an AR-15, then shot 3 more times point blank in the head.  yeah, the traffic related stops the mayor of brooklyn center said cops don't need firearms for

ok, so even if jockstrap wants to subtract 3 or 4 of the 97 and call me a liar, he's still libeling me.  ok, 93

That's just factually false. They refused to go back to work because of a lack of mitigation and a million holes in every plan that was put out. It's mind boggling how many people just assume "just go back to school" that can't seem to grasp the day to day operations of having a few thousand (or hundred) kids be monitored through the day.

[forgetful]

First, Hard's, very elegant and well thought out post above. Kudo's.

Second, in these horrific situations, when people always reference "well he should have complied," I can't help but wonder when does it reach the point of reasonable fear of life.

The same people calling for "complying" are the same that defended George Zimmerman, saying he feared for his life (from an unarmed kid). There are countless examples of black males being pulled over for things like "air fresheners from the rear-view mirror" and ending up dead. Being arrested on trivial, or inaccurate charges and then dying in jail. At some point, there has to be reasonable fear for life.

In this case, the victim was pulled over for an air freshener. He complied. He got out of the car. He was not informed on why he was being arrested, and reports indicate he didn't know he had a warrant out for his arrest.

So this is a kid, pulled over for no reasonable reason, being told he was arrested, without being explained a reason. I'd call that reasonable fear.

The parallel I would use are women, who when driving alone have refused to pull over for a squad car until they were somewhere safe. What if the police decided in that instance that they were fleeing, and did a pit maneuver that led to the woman's death. Would these same people say she "should have complied"? Would she even be charged with feeing the police? The answers would be no, and no, because women would agree that it was a "reasonable fear".

Most young men would agree that they have a reasonable fear when pulled over. Why don't we support them in these situations, instead of treating them like criminals. The solution is dealing with a police situation that has led to a subset of our population being victims of racial bias, and leading to a fear from police.

[GooooMarquette]

Why pull him over in the first place?  Why the arrest warrant for a relatively minor crime that wasn't all that serious to begin with?  Why escalate the situation by demanding that warrant be enforced immediately?

This is why police are view suspiciously by many.  Nothing those officers did lead to society being more safe.

These are very good points that often get lost in the larger discussion.

IMO, minor things like expired tags or outstanding warrants for minor crimes should not be dealt with via traffic stops, where the situation can easily escalate. Police on the beat should protect public safety - respond to dangerous traffic situations, crimes in progress, etc. Leave things like expired tags and outstanding minor warrants for administrative processes, where there is less chance of inadvertent escalation.

[4everwarriors]

Muggs:

Officer Kim Potter was charged. She wasn't convicted of anything, and she might never be. Folks keep saying they want due process. A charge is part of due process. She will get her day in court. Sadly, her decision to use unnecessary force robbed Daunte Wright of his chance to receive due process.

No human being of any race, color, creed, religion or gender should have received a death sentence for what either Daunte Wright or George Floyd did.

The Wright scenario is very tragic. However, Potter did not rob him of due process. Wright robbed himself of his day in court,
when he became physical with the police.
Don't know how many times this senseless reaction to authority has to be repeated before people realize not to flee or become physically or verbally abusive toward law enforcement officers. Do as they say, even if you feel you have been unjustly detained. You will get your day in court, hey?

[shoothoops]

In this case, the Police were the ones to escalate the confrontation.   You seem to think that whatever the Police do is "right," that their orders are to be taken without question, and that whatever the other party does is therefore "wrong."  That's just not accurate.

Group think, fanaticism, tribalism, can be applied to a variety of topics. It's like thanking someone for their service without knowing anything about their service. This makes for one sided knee jerk reactions that later require much back and forth discussion, as well objective dividual topic examination for each situation. Some fanatics are always gonna fanatic regardless of individual situation.

In this example, the officer created and escalated the violent encounter. The officer chose violence (gun or taser) when it wasn't appropriate to the situation.

[shoothoops]

The Wright scenario is very tragic. However, Potter did not rob him of due process. Wright robbed himself of his day in court,
when he became physical with the police.
Don't know how many times this senseless reaction to authority has to be repeated before people realize not to flee or become physically or verbally abusive toward law enforcement officers. Do as they say, even if you feel you have been unjustly detained. You will get your day in court, hey?

He didn't become physical with police. He wasn't physically abusive towards police. He literally tried to leave.

It's not okay to automatically shoot someone 100% of the time with a gun or taser, if the other person doesn't comply with a command.

This is the part I don't think you understand.

[Hards Alumni]

The Wright scenario is very tragic. However, Potter did not rob him of due process. Wright robbed himself of his day in court,
when he became physical with the police.
Don't know how many times this senseless reaction to authority has to be repeated before people realize not to flee or become physically or verbally abusive toward law enforcement officers. Do as they say, even if you feel you have been unjustly detained. You will get your day in court, hey?

Or how about police become less reliant on firearms?  They only ever lead to bad outcomes.  It is a systemic problem.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1124039/police-killings-rate-selected-countries/

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The Wright scenario is very tragic. However, Potter did not rob him of due process. Wright robbed himself of his day in court,
when he became physical with the police.
Don't know how many times this senseless reaction to authority has to be repeated before people realize not to flee or become physically or verbally abusive toward law enforcement officers. Do as they say, even if you feel you have been unjustly detained. You will get your day in court, hey?

Wait I thought reaction to authority was what made this country great?

So confused.

[MU82]

The Wright scenario is very tragic. However, Potter did not rob him of due process. Wright robbed himself of his day in court,
when he became physical with the police.
Don't know how many times this senseless reaction to authority has to be repeated before people realize not to flee or become physically or verbally abusive toward law enforcement officers. Do as they say, even if you feel you have been unjustly detained. You will get your day in court, hey?

Your very premise is dishonest, as he LITERALLY did not become physical with the police.

He did nothing that merited a death sentence. The cop denied him his day in court. She even could have testified against him and gotten him locked up.

[mu_hilltopper]

In this recent incident, I would place about 5-10% of the blame on the cop.  It looks as though she was a good cop, not like Chauvin for instance, who simply made a mistake.

I would place the vast majority of the blame on how we police in this country.  We pull too many people over for relatively minor reasons.  (An expired registration tag?  Cmon...)  Also they find out that he had an open arrest warrant for an alleged crime, a victimless one at that, that occurred ten months ago that wasn't serious enough to investigate even though the alleged criminal was pretty much hiding in plain sight.  We take a zero tolerance approach for someone with that warrant.  He needs to be arrested NOW and by any means necessary.

Why pull him over in the first place?  Why the arrest warrant for a relatively minor crime that wasn't all that serious to begin with?  Why escalate the situation by demanding that warrant be enforced immediately?

I agree with the 5-10% blame on the cop.  She went from exemplary veteran training officer to facing 10 years of jail time in the span of 20 seconds. 

The problem with the "why pull him over" question is .. if there's no enforcement, there's no point of a law.  I just paid my $130 to renew my sticker.  That's not a small amount, and with no enforcement it becomes an optional tax few would pay.

We only question the practice when the story gets into the news. 


In that vein, I think everyone would find this article .. disturbing:  https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

(one of the) TLDRs: When police reduce enforcement of minor laws, as is what happens after BLM type protests .. police shootings go down, but the murder rate goes up.  If true .. the price to pay for social justice is .. steep.

You can say braindead crap like "stop resisting arrest" but it isn't your race that is treated extremely unfairly by the criminal justice system.  Black Americans have worse outcomes for being charged, sentenced, and paroled than White Americans.  So you, as a white person, can say "stop resisting arrest" but you know you will probably be treated fairly by our criminal justice system.  If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd probably have a much higher fear of entering the criminal justice system than you do.

I'm sorry, but this is a hard no.   You pose the statement as if your resisting is a reasonable strategy because of "the system."

In every legal system, 100% of the time, resisting arrest will make your outcome worse (and not just for you, but incrementally for everyone after you too. )

We've heard the argument that follows .. if someone is resisting arrest, and in this case, trying to escape, then police policy should be to let them do just that, especially for a minor offense, like expired tags.

We could have that policy.  But if resisting or fleeing was a winning strategy, it would be quite popular. 

[4everwarriors]

Your very premise is dishonest, as he LITERALLY did not become physical with the police.

He did nothing that merited a death sentence. The cop denied him his day in court. She even could have testified against him and gotten him locked up.

No Mike, if you watched the officer's body cam footage, its clear that! While being cuffed, he struggled and broke free, got back into his car, and was clearly attempting to flee.

[Uncle Rico]

No Mike, if you watched the officer's body cam footage, its clear that! While being cuffed, he struggled and broke free, got back into his car, and was clearly attempting to flee.

That’s why he deserved to be killed.  Bet he learned his lesson

[4everwarriors]

Wait I thought reaction to authority was what made this country great?

So confused.

Its not that hard. We are a country of law and order, not mob rule. Its clear in the record that he was attempting to flee and had criminal complaints outstanding.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Its not that hard. We are a country of law and order, not mob rule. Its clear in the record that he was attempting to flee and had criminal complaints outstanding.

We are a country of law and order. Unless people don’t want to wear a mask. Those people are freedom fighters.

Do I have that right?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I agree with the 5-10% blame on the cop.  She went from exemplary veteran training officer to facing 10 years of jail time in the span of 20 seconds. 

The problem with the "why pull him over" question is .. if there's no enforcement, there's no point of a law.  I just paid my $130 to renew my sticker.  That's not a small amount, and with no enforcement it becomes an optional tax few would pay.

We only question the practice when the story gets into the news. 


In that vein, I think everyone would find this article .. disturbing:  https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

(one of the) TLDRs: When police reduce enforcement of minor laws, as is what happens after BLM type protests .. police shootings go down, but the murder rate goes up.  If true .. the price to pay for social justice is .. steep.

I'm sorry, but this is a hard no.   You pose the statement as if your resisting is a reasonable strategy because of "the system."

In every legal system, 100% of the time, resisting arrest will make your outcome worse (and not just for you, but incrementally for everyone after you too. )

We've heard the argument that follows .. if someone is resisting arrest, and in this case, trying to escape, then police policy should be to let them do just that, especially for a minor offense, like expired tags.

We could have that policy.  But if resisting or fleeing was a winning strategy, it would be quite popular. 

I didn’t say that car registrations should be enforced. They shouldn’t necessarily be enforced by pulling people over. Save that for moving violations where there is actually harm to the public.

I mean do police pull people over if they are late on their taxes? 

[MU82]

Its not that hard. We are a country of law and order, not mob rule. Its clear in the record that he was attempting to flee and had criminal complaints outstanding.

Well then, he obviously deserved to die.

Funny that you haven't been a very big fan of law and order when it comes to the deadly 1/6/21 mob that beat cops with flagpoles and fire extinguishers, trashed the U.S. Capitol and went looking for the vice president of the United States so they could hang him.

You think they're patriots!

[Lighthouse 84]

He didn't become physical with police. He wasn't physically abusive towards police. He literally tried to leave.

It's not okay to automatically shoot someone 100% of the time with a gun or taser, if the other person doesn't comply with a command.

This is the part I don't think you understand.

 

Your very premise is dishonest, as he LITERALLY did not become physical with the police.

He did nothing that merited a death sentence. The cop denied him his day in court. She even could have testified against him and gotten him locked up.

It's 100% correct that it's not okay to shoot someone simply for failure to comply with a command.  It's 100% correct that he did nothing that merited a death sentence.  It's not 100% correct to state Wright was not physical with the police and that it was ok that he "literally tried to leave."  When the police place him under arrest and are cuffing him, he doesn't have the right to "leave".  When place under arrest, he doesn't have the right to struggle with the cops.   And that's not "victim blaming".  He didn't deserve a death sentence, but it's dishonest to say he did nothing wrong in the traffic stop.

[shoothoops]

  It's 100% correct that it's not okay to shoot someone simply for failure to comply with a command.  It's 100% correct that he did nothing that merited a death sentence.  It's not 100% correct to state Wright was not physical with the police and that it was ok that he "literally tried to leave."  When the police place him under arrest and are cuffing him, he doesn't have the right to "leave".  When place under arrest, he doesn't have the right to struggle with the cops.   And that's not "victim blaming".  He didn't deserve a death sentence, but it's dishonest to say he did nothing wrong in the traffic stop.

It's not okay to use a taser on someone who does not pose a threat. It's not okay to use a taser on someone because that person disobeys a command and attempts to flee.

If the person was a threat or violent etc...that requires additional examination.

It's also possible to have a specific situation change multiple times. Each time use of force has to be appropriate. Hypothetical example, if a suspect initiates and physically struggles with a police officer, some force is reasonable to gain control of the situation. What type depends of course. If at any time the suspect is not a threat, escalated use of force would not be appropriate.

Take the George Floyd killing. The officer used excessive force for quite some time on someone who did not pose a threat.

If in the Brooklyn Center example, Wright initiated force against an officer, then "reasonable" force would be allowed to gain control of the situation. Once situation gets under control, reasonable or unreaaonable force stops.

[Lennys Tap]

Yep, it's not a very reassuring thing when the best-case scenario is that an officer who routinely trains younger cops is so strikingly incompetent that she mistakes her gun for a Taser.

And your worst case scenario? That a 29 years veteran hunted him down and shot him for sport? Jesus Christ, this was a horrible, horrible accident. She effed up royally. There should be consequences. But opening the door to the possibility that this was a cold blooded murder feeds a false and dangerous narrative.

[JWags85]

I have a minor side topic.  With all the talk of police reform and better approaches to community policing, which I largely agree with, what first hand experience with police elsewhere, whether from expat living or extensive travel, that you find aspirational and that the US could strive for more.  Obviously beyond "police in City X were so friendly and helpful when I visited, and I saw them being very kind to civilians".

Ive always thought the police in both the UK and Germany, from my experiences, were fantastic with de-escalation.  I still marvel at the self control of the police in London on riot duty during some of the most chaotic protests post-George Floyd and watching protestors leap barricades to throw punches or chucking stuff at the police and they literally just wrestled people back across the line before re-establishing positions, no arrests, no brawls.

[Lighthouse 84]

It's not okay to use a taser on someone who does not pose a threat. It's not okay to use a taser on someone because that person disobeys a command and attempts to flee.

If the person was a threat or violent etc...that requires additional examination.

It's also possible to have a specific situation change multiple times. Each time use of force has to be appropriate. Hypothetical example, if a suspect initiates and physically struggles with a police officer, some force is reasonable to gain control of the situation. What type depends of course. If at any time the suspect is not a threat, escalated use of force would not be appropriate.

Take the George Floyd killing. The officer used excessive force for quite some time on someone who did not pose a threat.

If in the Brooklyn Center example, Wright initiated force against an officer, then "reasonable" force would be allowed to gain control of the situation. Once situation gets under control, reasonable or unreaaonable force stops.

No disagreement with any of that Hoops.  But at what point is did it become ok for Wright to just decide to leave?

[Hards Alumni]

I'm sorry, but this is a hard no.   You pose the statement as if your resisting is a reasonable strategy because of "the system."

In every legal system, 100% of the time, resisting arrest will make your outcome worse (and not just for you, but incrementally for everyone after you too. )

We've heard the argument that follows .. if someone is resisting arrest, and in this case, trying to escape, then police policy should be to let them do just that, especially for a minor offense, like expired tags.

We could have that policy.  But if resisting or fleeing was a winning strategy, it would be quite popular.

I think you're taking what I was getting at a bit far.  I'm not excusing running away as a strategy, but I understand the desire.  If he gets arrested he knows he is done.  Everyone has a fight or flight system in their bodies, and his was probably in overdrive.  He was panicking.  Who wouldn't? 

The problem lies in that it is the officer's duty to make a safe arrest.  I'm suggesting that officers need to take into account that people in their custody need to be controlled firmly but safely.  If they can't do that after 26 years on the force then they should have help.  Why is this officer making the arrest of Daunte Wright alone?  Wouldn't a team of two or more be able to prevent a situation like this?  If there are more officers needed, then call for backup.  If she was physically incapable of restraining him, then why was she making this arrest?  I'm not suggesting we just let criminals run away and not pursue, that would be silly.  I'm saying that instead of it was the duty of the officer to make a safe arrest.  She should have asked for help with a suspect that becomes physical.  I'm just a dumbass on a message board, but I can think of ways to solve problems like this fairly quickly, and I'd imagine I'm not alone.

If these officers are pulling over someone for tags and an air freshener and are then willing to escalate to an arrest based on the open warrant, then they should consider assessing the situation before making the arrest.  Instead of being methodical or calling for backup to assist securing the situation another snap judgement had to be made.  And now another American citizen is dead without due process.

[4everwarriors]

We are a country of law and order. Unless people don’t want to wear a mask. Those people are freedom fighters.

Do I have that right?

At your own risk and consequences.

[4everwarriors]

Well then, he obviously deserved to die.

Funny that you haven't been a very big fan of law and order when it comes to the deadly 1/6/21 mob that beat cops with flagpoles and fire extinguishers, trashed the U.S. Capitol and went looking for the vice president of the United States so they could hang him.

You think they're patriots!

C'mon, don't put words in my mouth.

[Hards Alumni]

No disagreement with any of that Hoops.  But at what point is did it become ok for Wright to just decide to leave?

He didn't say it was okay to leave.  His point is that force needs to be proportional to the threat.  Why would anyone use a tazer on a guy trying to break free of cuffs at point blank range?  His arm was behind is back at the time he tried to break free.  A stiff upwards motion on his arm is incredibly painful and would likely have disabled him until the officer got required assistance.  Worst case scenario is that the suspect's arm hurts for the next few days.  No one would question something like that.