Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[jesmu84]

Isn't it possible that there are a multitude of factors at play when it comes to the current state of policing in the US? There can be bad cops. There can be racist cops. There can be underlying racist policies within the police/justice system. There can be bad police policy w/r/t things like stop/frisk, making cops be glorified revenue machines, allowing police units to become tactical/military-based, "us vs them" mentality, etc.

I like some of the suggestions mentioned in here that can help remedy some of these things: community-based policing; having cops live in the areas the work/patrol; increased emphasis on improving the economics of disadvantaged/high-crime areas.

[tower912]

BTW, Rocket, I love cops. 

[#UnleashSean]

Is there a map out there of police shooting unarmed black citizens in relation to:

A) the police department jurisdiction
B) the officers home
C) where the shootings take place?


I'd bet it's a lot of untrained police in suburban areas that poc have moved into very recently, and we would see that the cops have very little training outside of being revenue boosters.

[#UnleashSean]

BTW, Rocket, I love cops.

But why? Why do we inherently love cops? Why is that always a reaction? In my experience in my line of work, I have met many more cops who were bad, untrained, downright cruel, or power hungry then I have cops who actually gave a damn. We shouldn't just love cops solely because they have a badge.

[#UnleashSean]

And solely to rocket:


Please tell me what 100 cops who died in the line out duty (which your just 100% incorrect or deceiving about) has to do with a police officer who mistook her gun for a God damn unnatural carnal knowledgeing taste?

I believe you are a smart man, knowing your a dentist and all. So therefore I do expect a well thought out response to the above.

[tower912]

I have drank with them, golfed with them, worked with them at scenes, helped them get a suspect's name from a shooting victim who didn't want to talk, been standing next to them when they are in tears and begging their comrades to find the gun they swear they saw before they shot the guy.  (There was a gun).     I have argued policy with them.    They view the world differently than I do.   By design.   They are human and theirs is probably the second most thankless job in our society behind public school teachers.     For parallel reasons.    Punching bags of both the right and left and every time one of their members does something stupid it makes the entire profession look bad.   
    Everybody thinks they could do the job better, but so few actually step up.   

[jesmu84]

I have drank with them, golfed with them, worked with them at scenes, helped them get a suspect's name from a shooting victim who didn't want to talk, been standing next to them when they are in tears and begging their comrades to find the gun they swear they saw before they shot the guy.  (There was a gun).     I have argued policy with them.    They view the world differently than I do.   By design.   They are human and theirs is probably the second most thankless job in our society behind public school teachers.     For parallel reasons.    Punching bags of both the right and left and every time one of their members does something stupid it makes the entire profession look bad.   
    Everybody thinks they could do the job better, but so few actually step up.   

which is ironic because rocket ripped teachers in this thread. or maybe he just ripped unions - doing their job by protecting their members - which is further ironic because police have unions that do the exact same thing...

[TSmith34, Inc.]

And solely to rocket:


Please tell me what 100 cops who died in the line out duty (which your just 100% incorrect or deceiving about) has to do with a police officer who mistook her gun for a God damn unnatural carnal knowledgeing taste?

I believe you are a smart man, knowing your a dentist and all. So therefore I do expect a well thought out response to the above.

The facts do not support your supposition. Quite the contrary.

[dgies9156]

The police problem we have has several root causes

1) It's the officer whose assignment is to hold taxes down by writing tickets -- and writes you up for going 30 in a 25 zone at 4:30 a.m., or municipal and county police officers who turn Interstate 75 from Atlanta to the Florida/Georgia line into a giant cat and mouse game.

2) It is driving down Interstate 55 between Chicago and St. Louis and seeing the Illinois State Police pull over every old, worn-out late model car driven by African-American drivers for some nonsensical violation, as people blow by the stop at 85 to 100 mph.

3) It's serving on a jury in Lake County, IL in which an African-American woman is charged with assault because a police officer stuck a hand in her car door as she closed it. The same police officer couldn't get his testimony straight as to whether the incident occurred at 3 a.m., or 3 p.m. To a person, the all-white jury acquitted immediately and asked the same question in the jury room: "Why are we wasting our time and the public's money on this Mickey Mouse case?" Because the Defendant in the case was African-American and gave a policeman "lip," whatever that is (perhaps defending her rights).

4) It is a brutish police officer pulling you over because he has a quota of DUI stops and acts as if you just committed capital murder. And, when you assert your Constitutional rights, he or she acts as if you don't have any.

5 It's police officers opening lying about your alleged violation to make your case stand up in court.

Each of these is real and affected me personally. I inevitably get out of whatever a police officers throws at me because I either hire a lawyer or just pay the fine. But it leaves resentment -- the jury case in particular. When you multiply this by a dozen or more, you begin to understand why African Americans distrust the police.

To do a comparison, a few years back I was stopped by one of the fabled Crimson Cruisers of the Minnesota State Police. It was on MN 61 south of Grand Marais. The police officer engaged my Dad and myself and began asking questions. He was polite and considerate and noted that my rate of speed was just a bit higher than the posted limit. He did a wants and warrants, found I was clean and asked my Dad to "take charge." They both laughed when Dad said, "that ship sailed decades ago!" I got a warning with a promise that his buddies up the road will be watching.

Effective enforcement -- I didn't speed again. The officer was respectful and so was I. He did his duty and treated me (and Dad) with the respect due a constituent and citizen. If more officers were like him, well, we'd probably have fewer problems.

Full Disclosure: My son has a degree in Social Work and is training to be a police officer. I admit I have some concern, but it is his career choice and I hope he becomes a bright light in a new wave of police officers.

[MU82]

But why? Why do we inherently love cops? Why is that always a reaction? In my experience in my line of work, I have met many more cops who were bad, untrained, downright cruel, or power hungry then I have cops who actually gave a damn. We shouldn't just love cops solely because they have a badge.

Can only speak for myself. I don't "inherently love cops." The cops I have known have been decent people. Neither I nor any member of my family has been treated badly by a cop, so I have no reason for personal animus. I respect how difficult their job can be.

I have no doubt that there are a-hole cops and racist cops and lazy cops, etc etc etc ... just as there are a-holes and racists and sloths within every profession.

I do not personally know enough sample size to know if "cops are racist," and I try not to paint entire groups of people with a broad brush. But I am quite sure that law enforcement in America has a pretty serious systemic racism problem.

[Jockey]

This officer, like the majority of these police brutality cases, has been prosecuted.  And in three days.  It was obviously an unfortunate incident and each of these mainstream cases have vast differences. 

What exactly do people want beyond this outcome?  If the victim was white or the cop was black would your views be different?  What outcome is possibly better, under our system, than this cop being charged for 2nd degree manslaughter in 3 days?   Or should every case where a white officer kills a black victim, no matter how or what the circumstances are, be given the death penalty or life in prison immediately?   Is it proof we're a systemically racist society because we have due process?  Is it not conceivable this was a very unfortunate accident?

Muggsy- obviously we disagree on nearly everything political but I generally agree with you here.

If this type of reaction was the norm, blacks would not feel so alienated by the police. They could have a reasonable expectation that justice would be served in these cases. And police would fully understand that they are accountable for their actions.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Not all police need lethal weapons. I strongly believe that we need to stop expecting police to be jacks and jills of all trades that deal with all of society's various ills. Divide police into more specifically trained groups:

Community policing. No weapons, responsible for building trust in neighborhoods, respond to mental health concerns, issues with homelessness, minor infractions, etc.

Traffic policing. Non-lethal weapons only, responsible for the rules of the road, responding to minor infractions like drunk and disorderly, assault (no weapons), etc.

Intervention policing. Lethal weapons, responsible for responding to significant infractions, domestic disturbances, serving warrants to violent offenders, etc.

Crisis policing. Militarized weapons, reserved for when they are really needed.

I truly believe this would a go a long way towards fixing a lot of the issues in the current system. Police are expected to deal with so many things that no one has the training or expertise to respond to all of them effectively. Add a lethal weapon to that mix and tragic mistakes (and tragic non-mistakes) are bound to happen.

[MuggsyB]

Not all police need lethal weapons. I strongly believe that we need to stop expecting police to be jacks and jills of all trades that deal with all of society's various ills. Divide police into more specifically trained groups:

Community policing. No weapons, responsible for building trust in neighborhoods, respond to mental health concerns, issues with homelessness, minor infractions, etc.

Traffic policing. Non-lethal weapons only, responsible for the rules of the road, responding to minor infractions like drunk and disorderly, assault (no weapons), etc.

Intervention policing. Lethal weapons, responsible for responding to significant infractions, domestic disturbances, serving warrants to violent offenders, etc.

Crisis policing. Militarized weapons, reserved for when they are really needed.

I truly believe this would a go a long way towards fixing a lot of the issues in the current system. Police are expected to deal with so many things that no one has the training or expertise to respond to all of them effectively. Add a lethal weapon to that mix and tragic mistakes (and tragic non-mistakes) are bound to happen.

What if they respond to these incidents, for example a mental health issue, and they are attacked?  And what happens if criminals know they aren't armed and target them in a traffic stop?  It is extremely important for local police to build trust in their neighborhoods but that goes both ways. 

Stop resisting arrest.  Remember that Atlanta incident when the guy parked at Wendy's, seemingly was cooperating, and then stole the cop's taser?  There is no way you can anticipate how an altercation will go even if it appears relatively straightforward and innocuous. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What if they respond to these incidents, for example a mental health issue, and they are attacked?

They work in teams and don't approach a situation they don't feel comfortable handling. Call for backup if necessary.

And what happens if criminals know they aren't armed and target them in a traffic stop?

I think you find that attacks on police decrease, not increase. As has been noted ad naseum in this thread, police being killed by criminals is a rare event in this country and it's rarely from a targeted ambush like you are suggesting. I think removing weapons from these situations will ease tensions on both sides.

Stop resisting arrest. 

Stop blaming the victim.

Remember that Atlanta incident when the guy parked at Wendy's, seemingly was cooperating, and then stole the cop's taser?  There is no way you can anticipate how an altercation will go even if it appears relatively straightforward and innocuous. 

The killing of Rayshard Brooks is a perfect example of how removing weapons from a situation could improve policing.

1. If weapons were removed, Rayshard Brooks would still be alive and be receiving due process for DUI and resisting arrest
2. If weapons were removed, the officer wouldn't be facing murder charges for shooting a man armed with only a discharged taser in the back from 18 feet away

I think both of those of would have been more positive outcomes than what actually happened.

[D'Lo Brown]

But why? Why do we inherently love cops? Why is that always a reaction? In my experience in my line of work, I have met many more cops who were bad, untrained, downright cruel, or power hungry then I have cops who actually gave a damn. We shouldn't just love cops solely because they have a badge.

Can we some day not base most arguments on the internet on whether something or someone is always 100% right or wrong. We're all aware that isn't realistic.

Not even cops think all cops are good (deserving of "inherent love"). My mom was a cop & my brother is currently one. Both are genuinely good people that also love the profession & want/wanted to have a part in bettering it. That said, neither of them even inherently love all cops. I'm trying to think of a single profession on earth where those in the profession, or people generally, think all in it are good without question.

I have never personally interacted with an officer that would not absolutely detest & reject the officer in this case & others like it.

Can I suggest that anyone on the internet saying "I love all cops no matter what" is merely trolling for your outrage. The world is too nuanced to observe it in such a manichean way.

[MU82]

Can we some day not base most arguments on the internet on whether something or someone is always 100% right or wrong. We're all aware that isn't realistic.

Not even cops think all cops are good (deserving of "inherent love"). My mom was a cop & my brother is currently one. Both are genuinely good people that also love the profession & want/wanted to have a part in bettering it. That said, neither of them even inherently love all cops. I'm trying to think of a single profession on earth where those in the profession, or people generally, think all in it are good without question.

I have never personally interacted with an officer that would not absolutely detest & reject the officer in this case & others like it.

Can I suggest that anyone on the internet saying "I love all cops no matter what" is merely trolling for your outrage. The world is too nuanced to observe it in such a manichean way.

Eloquent response that was better than mine. Well said.

[tower912]

D'Lo, well said.  Cops are human.  There are good ones and bad ones.   And even good people have bad days.   Cops bad days are more visible and can have very bad outcomes.

[Hards Alumni]

What if they respond to these incidents, for example a mental health issue, and they are attacked?  And what happens if criminals know they aren't armed and target them in a traffic stop?  It is extremely important for local police to build trust in their neighborhoods but that goes both ways. 

Stop resisting arrest.  Remember that Atlanta incident when the guy parked at Wendy's, seemingly was cooperating, and then stole the cop's taser?  There is no way you can anticipate how an altercation will go even if it appears relatively straightforward and innocuous.

Think for a second and answer these yourself.  There are a ton of solutions out there.  Pretending that everything is okay is clearly not the answer.  Don't fall into the trap of defending a clearly broken system.  TAMU and Pakuni have responded exactly how I would respond when you asked what demilitarize the police means.  It means, don't make the police look like the military.  Stop equipping them like infantry when they have far less training and need for such things.  If you need military vehicles and equipment, then call the National Guard.

You can say braindead crap like "stop resisting arrest" but it isn't your race that is treated extremely unfairly by the criminal justice system.  Black Americans have worse outcomes for being charged, sentenced, and paroled than White Americans.  So you, as a white person, can say "stop resisting arrest" but you know you will probably be treated fairly by our criminal justice system.  If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd probably have a much higher fear of entering the criminal justice system than you do.

What does that Wendy's incident have to do with anything?  A tazer isn't lethal (usually) and can be fired ONCE... Not to mention, the officer is almost certainly wearing body armor which makes the Tazer less likely to be effective.  If a guy steals an officer's Tazer they can back off and call for backup.  This is another huge problem.  Police officers need to do a much better job of deescalating situations instead of using force.  Talking through a problem instead of treating everything adversarially would lead to much better results.

You can't look a the US criminal justice system and act like it isn't absolutely broken.  We have the HIGHEST prison population and the highest per capita in the WORLD.  There are over 2 million Americans in the prison system of the US.  Our country has 328 million people in it.  China has the second high prison population at 1.7 million... but they have 1.4 BILLION people.  Do you see the problem?  Not to mention we have some of the worst outcomes worldwide in recidivism (people who go back to prison after release).  2 out of 3 people who go to prison will return. *(1)  Why does this happen?  Do we attempt to rehabilitate our incarcerated population?  If I failed my job 2/3 of the time, and you were my boss, you'd fire me well before I got to 2/3s failure rate.  So why do we continue on with what we are doing?  What is the justification?  Are US incarcerated people impossible to reform?  Certainly not.  But part of the reason we have millions of prisoners in the US is slavery.  I'm not talking about plantations and the South pre-civil war.  I'm referring to prisoners who are 'afforded the luxury' of 'learning job skills' while in prison. *(2).  This doesn't even begin to address the for profit prison system in the US.  Which make more money from recidivism.  We throw tax dollars at these companies!  Why are we incentivizing prisoner retention?  A lot of people cry up and down about labor camps in China, but fail to recognize that we have the EXACT SAME sort of thing happening right here in the US of A right under lady liberty's skirt.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a tangent there, but instead of asking everyone to answer questions non stop, consider doing a little bit of searching on your own.  That way, you're more likely to accept the information instead of dismissing it because of who wrote it.


sources
*1 https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/social-determinants-health/interventions-resources/incarceration
*2 https://nondoc.com/2020/01/17/oklahoma-prison-telemarketing-contracts/

[MU82]

Muggs:

Officer Kim Potter was charged. She wasn't convicted of anything, and she might never be. Folks keep saying they want due process. A charge is part of due process. She will get her day in court. Sadly, her decision to use unnecessary force robbed Daunte Wright of his chance to receive due process.

No human being of any race, color, creed, religion or gender should have received a death sentence for what either Daunte Wright or George Floyd did.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Think for a second and answer these yourself.  There are a ton of solutions out there.  Pretending that everything is okay is clearly not the answer.  Don't fall into the trap of defending a clearly broken system.  TAMU and Pakuni have responded exactly how I would respond when you asked what demilitarize the police means.  It means, don't make the police look like the military.  Stop equipping them like infantry when they have far less training and need for such things.  If you need military vehicles and equipment, then call the National Guard.

You can say braindead crap like "stop resisting arrest" but it isn't your race that is treated extremely unfairly by the criminal justice system.  Black Americans have worse outcomes for being charged, sentenced, and paroled than White Americans.  So you, as a white person, can say "stop resisting arrest" but you know you will probably be treated fairly by our criminal justice system.  If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd probably have a much higher fear of entering the criminal justice system than you do.

What does that Wendy's incident have to do with anything?  A tazer isn't lethal (usually) and can be fired ONCE... Not to mention, the officer is almost certainly wearing body armor which makes the Tazer less likely to be effective.  If a guy steals an officer's Tazer they can back off and call for backup.  This is another huge problem.  Police officers need to do a much better job of deescalating situations instead of using force.  Talking through a problem instead of treating everything adversarially would lead to much better results.

You can't look a the US criminal justice system and act like it isn't absolutely broken.  We have the HIGHEST prison population and the highest per capita in the WORLD.  There are over 2 million Americans in the prison system of the US.  Our country has 328 million people in it.  China has the second high prison population at 1.7 million... but they have 1.4 BILLION people.  Do you see the problem?  Not to mention we have some of the worst outcomes worldwide in recidivism (people who go back to prison after release).  2 out of 3 people who go to prison will return. *(1)  Why does this happen?  Do we attempt to rehabilitate our incarcerated population?  If I failed my job 2/3 of the time, and you were my boss, you'd fire me well before I got to 2/3s failure rate.  So why do we continue on with what we are doing?  What is the justification?  Are US incarcerated people impossible to reform?  Certainly not.  But part of the reason we have millions of prisoners in the US is slavery.  I'm not talking about plantations and the South pre-civil war.  I'm referring to prisoners who are 'afforded the luxury' of 'learning job skills' while in prison. *(2).  This doesn't even begin to address the for profit prison system in the US.  Which make more money from recidivism.  We throw tax dollars at these companies!  Why are we incentivizing prisoner retention?  A lot of people cry up and down about labor camps in China, but fail to recognize that we have the EXACT SAME sort of thing happening right here in the US of A right under lady liberty's skirt.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a tangent there, but instead of asking everyone to answer questions non stop, consider doing a little bit of searching on your own.  That way, you're more likely to accept the information instead of dismissing it because of who wrote it.


sources
*1 https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/social-determinants-health/interventions-resources/incarceration
*2 https://nondoc.com/2020/01/17/oklahoma-prison-telemarketing-contracts/

This is really well said.  The other thing is that Police are agents of the State.  They are part of government, which is something I hear from many is too involved in our day to day lives.  But as such they have the extraordinary responsibility of keeping ALL citizens protected - including those accused of crimes. 

In this recent incident, I would place about 5-10% of the blame on the cop.  It looks as though she was a good cop, not like Chauvin for instance, who simply made a mistake.

I would place the vast majority of the blame on how we police in this country.  We pull too many people over for relatively minor reasons.  (An expired registration tag?  Cmon...)  Also they find out that he had an open arrest warrant for an alleged crime, a victimless one at that, that occurred ten months ago that wasn't serious enough to investigate even though the alleged criminal was pretty much hiding in plain sight.  We take a zero tolerance approach for someone with that warrant.  He needs to be arrested NOW and by any means necessary.

Why pull him over in the first place?  Why the arrest warrant for a relatively minor crime that wasn't all that serious to begin with?  Why escalate the situation by demanding that warrant be enforced immediately?

This is why police are view suspiciously by many.  Nothing those officers did lead to society being more safe.

[MuggsyB]

Did I say these people deserved to die?  No.  But to totally disregard  that confrontations with police go both ways is ridiculous.  How many times do people get killed in these situations when they are not combative vs when they are?  Would you recommend to your sons or brothers to attack the cops in these altercations or not?   Would you tell them to burn their precincts down? 

[MuggsyB]

This is really well said.  The other thing is that Police are agents of the State.  They are part of government, which is something I hear from many is too involved in our day to day lives.  But as such they have the extraordinary responsibility of keeping ALL citizens protected - including those accused of crimes. 

In this recent incident, I would place about 5-10% of the blame on the cop.  It looks as though she was a good cop, not like Chauvin for instance, who simply made a mistake.

I would place the vast majority of the blame on how we police in this country.  We pull too many people over for relatively minor reasons.  (An expired registration tag?  Cmon...)  Also they find out that he had an open arrest warrant for an alleged crime, a victimless one at that, that occurred ten months ago that wasn't serious enough to investigate even though the alleged criminal was pretty much hiding in plain sight.  We take a zero tolerance approach for someone with that warrant.  He needs to be arrested NOW and by any means necessary.

Why pull him over in the first place?  Why the arrest warrant for a relatively minor crime that wasn't all that serious to begin with?  Why escalate the situation by demanding that warrant be enforced immediately?

This is why police are view suspiciously by many.  Nothing those officers did lead to society being more safe.

They reported he had an outstanding warrant for robbing a woman at gunpoint.  Not sure if that's been confirmed.

[Hards Alumni]

They reported he had an outstanding warrant for robbing a woman at gunpoint.  Not sure if that's been confirmed.

Read first, comment second.  Specifically, my comments.

[MU82]

Did I say these people deserved to die?  No.  But to totally disregard  that confrontations with police go both ways is ridiculous.  How many times do people get killed in these situations when they are not combative vs when they are?  Would you recommend to your sons or brothers to attack the cops in these altercations or not?   Would you tell them to burn their precincts down?

Would you be blaming the victim if he was your son or brother?

If your son or brother had been shot to death by a cop who thought she had a Taser in her hand - when even a Taser was unnecessary in the situation - would you be saying that it was your son or brother's fault and that the cop deserved "due process" (which BTW she is getting)?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Did I say these people deserved to die?  No.  But to totally disregard  that confrontations with police go both ways is ridiculous.  How many times do people get killed in these situations when they are not combative vs when they are?  Would you recommend to your sons or brothers to attack the cops in these altercations or not?   Would you tell them to burn their precincts down? 

In this case, the Police were the ones to escalate the confrontation.   You seem to think that whatever the Police do is "right," that their orders are to be taken without question, and that whatever the other party does is therefore "wrong."  That's just not accurate.