Overtraining

[Jay Bee]

I have been reading MUScoop for years, but rarely post.  However, I have never seen a discussion on here about overtraining. 

Yep, it's obvious the overtraining this program puts these guys through ruins most seasons. Crappy end of the year performances every March. They're just so tired. That's why they get tripped up in the tourney so early.

[MU1980]

Yep, it's obvious the overtraining this program puts these guys through ruins most seasons. Crappy end of the year performances every March. They're just so tired. That's why they get tripped up in the tourney so early.

I appreciate the sarcasm, but nowhere did I imply that it ruins most seasons or that Buzz hasn't been successful.  I am a huge Buzz fan and like that he is able to get his athletes to buy into his program and work hard.  I believe it is why you have seen many players improve so much.

I also believe there is a fine line between working hard and working too hard.  There have been several overuse injuries over the years; more so than it seems with other programs.  A sprained ankle or torn ACL are not overuse injuries, but stress fractures and foot injuries usually are.  I think we all agree this team would have been better with Duane Wilson this year; how much better we will never know. 

I also think at times it seems this team is not able to perform in tournaments where there are back to back to back games, where by the second or third game they play awful and look very tired, even though the other team is in the same situation.  If they are playing two or three games in a row and also having an intense shoot around early in the morning, it could create extra fatigue that the other team is not experiencing. 

Just throwing ideas out there; not trying to imply this is a definite cause of anything, but there are enough examples to at least wonder if they need to learn to back off a little to avoid overuse injuries. 

[Jay Bee]

I also believe there is a fine line between working hard and working too hard.  There have been several overuse injuries over the years; more so than it seems with other programs.  A sprained ankle or torn ACL are not overuse injuries, but stress fractures and foot injuries usually are.  I think we all agree this team would have been better with Duane Wilson this year; how much better we will never know. 

I also think at times it seems this team is not able to perform in tournaments where there are back to back to back games, where by the second or third game they play awful and look very tired, even though the other team is in the same situation.  If they are playing two or three games in a row and also having an intense shoot around early in the morning, it could create extra fatigue that the other team is not experiencing. 

Yep. I totally forgot that Duane Wilson is out this year because of over-training in October.

Arguably MU's best win this season - over GW - came a day after they both had played other teams (GW had the game BEFORE MU). Somehow MU overcame the odds to pummel GW. That 16-point win probably would have been 56 if Buzz would have taken it easy on the fellas.

[MU1980]

Yep. I totally forgot that Duane Wilson is out this year because of over-training in October.

Arguably MU's best win this season - over GW - came a day after they both had played other teams (GW had the game BEFORE MU). Somehow MU overcame the odds to pummel GW. That 16-point win probably would have been 56 if Buzz would have taken it easy on the fellas.

. 

Thanks for reminding me why I don't post often.  You can always find examples of anything if you look hard enough.  There are other examples that would show just the opposite, but neither would be proof of anything, it is just a discussion.  By the way, it is fact that a stress fracture is usually caused by overuse.  The Wilson injury did change the outcome of this season; by how much we will never know.  Same with Cadougan's injury his freshman year, which I believe was an overuse injury as well, along with others.  By the way, maybe Buzz did take it easy on the fellas for the GW game and therefore your argument would be for the possibility of overtraining and when he doesn't, they win.  Who knows and that is why I brought it up, with several interesting responses. 

[pbiflyer]

How do you feel about taped ankles and listerene ?
If you are pro them, I have a perfect match for you.
 

[MerrittsMustache]

I think it was cuz Buzz was pissed at Jamil and Mayo and Deonte played a much longer stretch than he is used to. There is a huge difference between practice and being on the floor during a game.

A 19-20 year old kid should be able to play 40 minutes (ala Kemba's 5 games in 5 days), but if you aren't used to playing more than 2 or 3 minutes at a time, I think you get gassed pretty quick. And it's not like he is the kind of player who stands in the corner and waits for a pass.

+1

Deonte typically plays in short stints and goes all out. Seeing more extended minutes and going at that same pace is going to wear him out. It's like an Olympic 200m runner racing in a 800m race and struggling. It would seem odd for a world class runner to get gassed in under half a mile but it's not what his body and mind are used to.

For the team as a whole, I think the travel and quick turnaround took a bit of their energy but I also feel like hot outside shooting from a bad outside shooting team got MU on their heels defensively and they could never really get it back on track, and having lost that slight bit of energy just compounded things.

[Stretchdeltsig]

I think this topic has a lot of merit.  Two examples come to mind.  I went in the Army after graduating from Marquette.  We physically worked out dark til dark each day in basic training for 8 weeks.  We were not allowed to walk, but, had to "double time" (run) during this period.  We received a short break during Christmas and it was during a pick up game of basketball that I noticed my legs felt like "wood,"  from the constant training.  The second example is when you watch the NBA play off games.  Dwayne Wade was not nearly the player physically that he is during the playoffs last year because of wear and tear on his body from the long season.

During the Big East season it seems that Marquette plays slower and appears more winded that its opponents.  I agree with the poster of this topic that it could be from "over training." 

[MerrittsMustache]

I think this topic has a lot of merit.  Two examples come to mind.  I went in the Army after graduating from Marquette.  We physically worked out dark til dark each day in basic training for 8 weeks.  We were not allowed to walk, but, had to "double time" (run) during this period.  We received a short break during Christmas and it was during a pick up game of basketball that I noticed my legs felt like "wood,"  from the constant training.  The second example is when you watch the NBA play off games.  Dwayne Wade was not nearly the player physically that he is during the playoffs last year because of wear and tear on his body from the long season.

During the Big East season it seems that Marquette plays slower and appears more winded that its opponents.  I agree with the poster of this topic that it could be from "over training." 

MU went 14-4 in the BE each of the last 2 seasons and Buzz has won 64% of his career Big East games. I'm not sure why this year's team would fall victim to overtraining while past teams wouldn't.

[jesmu84]

MU went 14-4 in the BE each of the last 2 seasons and Buzz has won 64% of his career Big East games. I'm not sure why this year's team would fall victim to overtraining while past teams wouldn't.

Because we have to find a cause or a reason, preferably a singular one, as fans to blame. We can't accept that it's just a down/bad year across the board. It's overtraining. Or Derrick. Or Buzz. Or Vander's departure. We can't just say "it's a combination of a lot of factors/variables over several years." And we certainly can't say "this happens every now and then to even the best programs, so let's just ride it out"

[River rat]

I am sorry but this has too be one of, if not the most stupid threads in truly a year of stupid threads. 

How many times over the last 6 years has Buzz been asked and commented on conditioning and physical training throughout the season> On numerous numerous occasion he has spoken about how important that is and that they tend to dial back the training and the season and travel wears on the players and they want to keep them fresh.  Buzz's back ground plus the input of Enest Eugene and Todd Smith and team trainers and doctors have a vast wealth of from collegiate and professional sports that dwarfs the retarded speculation of the OP and others.
The comment that Burton looked gassed was equally moronic.  He had been out there fore an extended stretch?  Without any dead ball timeouts. I would hope he would be gassed!! We always told out players...play like your hair is on fire and we will get you out get you a breather and get you back in.  But if you play to conserve your enegy you will come out and not return.
I liken this to hockey players, do the posters know that the average hockey winger or center plays for 45 seconds per shift??  They go out and literally sprint for 45 seconds and then sit for 2-3 minutes and do it again.  Is there something wrong with NHL coaches and trainers that these guys cannot go longer than that? 
Guys the stupid speculation on this teams stuggles  is over the top.  We are undertalented and underathletic  and lack some toughness.  Sure its Buzzs fault at the end of the day but everyone is trying.  Step back and rrelax its nothing more or less
   

[UticaBusBarn]

Actually, MU 1980 has raised a very legitimate point. The issue of the Warriors being "beat" came up in year two and three of Coach Williams' tenure.

It is a issue often swept under the rug in various work settings. As is, you can solve all problems by "working harder." Working smarter, yes - working more hours probably no. Average productivity drops by between 25 and 50 percent for those working over 50 hour weeks.

No one in the world wants to win more than Coach Williams. This season has had to pain him and been most difficult. However, Coach Williams, like Coach McGuire, is a bit ... ahhh, focused. As a result, it is possible that Coach Williams, is working himself harder, and is working his players just as hard, and being more intense than usual as he tries to right the ship for the big dance.

The NCAA has strict requirements for the hours a team can practice before the regular season begins. Once the season begins these restrictions are liberalized. In addition, there is the whole discussion of individual work outs to be considered.

Maybe it would not hurt Coach Williams and the Warrior players to take a day off from all the pressure of big-time college basketball and spend it doing something requiring no physical, or mental effort ... such as watching Road Runner animated cartoons for three or four hours 

[MerrittsMustache]

Actually, MU 1980 has raised a very legitimate point. The issue of the Warriors being "beat" came up in year two and three of Coach Williams' tenure.

It is a issue often swept under the rug in various work settings. As is, you can solve all problems by "working harder." Working smarter, yes - working more hours probably no. Average productivity drops by between 25 and 50 percent for those working over 50 hour weeks.

No one in the world wants to win more than Coach Williams. This season has had to pain him and been most difficult. However, Coach Williams, like Coach McGuire, is a bit ... ahhh, focused. As a result, it is possible that Coach Williams, is working himself harder, and is working his players just as hard, and being more intense than usual as he tries to right the ship for the big dance.

The NCAA has strict requirements for the hours a team can practice before the regular season begins. Once the season begins these restrictions are liberalized. In addition, there is the whole discussion of individual work outs to be considered.

Maybe it would not hurt Coach Williams and the Warrior players to take a day off from all the pressure of big-time college basketball and spend it doing something requiring no physical, or mental effort ... such as watching Road Runner animated cartoons for three or four hours 

You mean like going to a Broadway show the night before a game in NYC?

[MU1980]

I am sorry but this has too be one of, if not the most stupid threads in truly a year of stupid threads. 

How many times over the last 6 years has Buzz been asked and commented on conditioning and physical training throughout the season> On numerous numerous occasion he has spoken about how important that is and that they tend to dial back the training and the season and travel wears on the players and they want to keep them fresh.  Buzz's back ground plus the input of Enest Eugene and Todd Smith and team trainers and doctors have a vast wealth of from collegiate and professional sports that dwarfs the retarded speculation of the OP and others.
The comment that Burton looked gassed was equally moronic.  He had been out there fore an extended stretch?  Without any dead ball timeouts. I would hope he would be gassed!! We always told out players...play like your hair is on fire and we will get you out get you a breather and get you back in.  But if you play to conserve your enegy you will come out and not return.
I liken this to hockey players, do the posters know that the average hockey winger or center plays for 45 seconds per shift??  They go out and literally sprint for 45 seconds and then sit for 2-3 minutes and do it again.  Is there something wrong with NHL coaches and trainers that these guys cannot go longer than that? 
Guys the stupid speculation on this teams stuggles  is over the top.  We are undertalented and underathletic  and lack some toughness.  Sure its Buzzs fault at the end of the day but everyone is trying.  Step back and rrelax its nothing more or less
   

I appreciate the very nice input river rat, without any insults or anything.  Very nice.  As others have pointed out, this is a valid topic for two reasons.  One, we seem to have had more overuse injuries than other teams over the years, including this year.  A stress fracture is because you pushed too hard.  Why didn't everyone on the team get one?  Because some people are more prone to them than others when pushed too hard.  Secondly, it is common for announcers and others to talk about the very intense shoot around practices Marquette has on game days.  I do not hear of other programs doing that.  You want to be fresh for the game, not fatigued from getting up early and pushing yourself to exhaustion a few hours before the game.

Nowhere in my first post was I entirely blaming the overtraining as the sole reason this season has been less than expected, but the points brought up are valid.  Buzz is a workaholic and likes others around him to work hard, which is an admirable quality.  There is also a fine line between optimal conditioning and overdoing it.  I have absolutely no idea if this is the case with this team or others, but have provided examples and some science behind my points and is why I thought it was worth discussing.

[River rat]

I think the fact that you state you have "no idea" says it all.

 More importantly a vast cadre of professional doctors, trainers, kiniesiologists, and physical therapists with hundreds of years of experience do!!!  All of these Marquette BBAll people in numerous fourums, print, newspaper, radio and other medias have commented on how important this type of management is and how they need to keep a very close watch and maintain a good feel for those issues.

yet some one "with No idea" comes on here and makes some profound hypothesis that we are overtraining!!!   And by the way Dominic james did not have a stress fracture from over training.  he stepped on a Uconn Players foot and broke his foot!!  
I realize its an open forum ... but thread after thread of people coming up with one stupid theory after another followed by normally commpletely incorrect facts that support these theories has hit almost mind blowing proportions during this season.  

The most hilarious of them all is how after one game everything is good and the team might go on a roll and then after the next all that was bad is bad again and we have 30 new rumors or theories on why everything is bad.

The team is underathletic and undertalented.  this is a result of transfers injuries and a huge early departure.  Nothing more nothing less.  These things combined for an average team.  Averge teams win some and lose soem.  That is what this team is doing  nothing changes form one game to the next  .  Good teams are consistantly good, averge teams are not, bad teams are consistantly bad.  No grand conspiracies need to be going on.

[MU1980]

River Rat, I appreciate this response without being called an idiot, although I am sure you are still thinking it.  You do bring up some good points, such as James stress fracture being caused by stepping on someone, as opposed to overuse.  Most stress fractures are from overuse, but can occur both ways.  I do not have a good enough memory to know which injuries over the past several years were overuse injuries, as opposed to trauma.  It appears that Wilson's was overuse, but I realize that is just one injury. 

My thread was not started because of the level this years team is playing; I have thought about it for the past several years, each time a player is sidelined with a stress injury.  I too am frustrated with all the different "theories" of what is wrong with this years team, so I can understand why someone who lump my post in with those, even though that wasn't the intent. 

Also, I am a huge fan of Buzz Williams and have complimented him throughout my posts on this thread, so the intent was not to slam on Buzz.  With all of that said, I come from a distance running background and there are some top level collegiate distance coaches that have degrees in exercise science that continually burn out or injure many of their top runners from pushing them too hard.  The philosophy seems to be "we have to work harder than everyone else and if we have a few casualties along the way, the ones that are left will be that much stronger".  Of course, if the injured one is a key runner, or player, on the team, it can be costly.  These are highly intelligent coaches from Major DI Universities and yet they often make the same mistakes year in and year out, knowing it is a fine line between working really hard and getting injured or burned out. 

This topic is still of interest to me and yes I do have an extensive background in exercise science, but little in basketball.  Overtraining and overuse injuries can occur in any sport however and the science behind it can be very similar. 

As far as me having no idea, it is why I brought up the thread; to ask questions and elicit some responses and/or theories.  I thought someone with a little more knowledge of the program may have some insight.  For example, lately I have not heard any comments about how hard the team works in their shoot around the day of the game like I used to, so maybe that is not the case anymore.  Someone said Wilson works incredibly hard and maybe he was doing more than he was supposed to be doing, but as I asked in a different post, did he have a history of stress fractures in the past.  Many things I don't know, but would be interested in knowing. 

[MerrittsMustache]

The team is underathletic and undertalented.  this is a result of transfers injuries and a huge early departure.  Nothing more nothing less.  These things combined for an average team.  Averge teams win some and lose soem.  That is what this team is doing  nothing changes form one game to the next  .  Good teams are consistantly good, averge teams are not, bad teams are consistantly bad.  No grand conspiracies need to be going on.

This paragraph really sums this season up nicely...unfortunately.

[River rat]

This paragraph really sums this season up nicely...unfortunately.

I agree it is unfortunate, but it is really that simple.  Buzz isnt over training.  Buzz didnt turn into a bad coach.  Buzz and the players are doing everything they can, unfortunately it just isnt enough.  Threads that say Dawson is better than derrick are incorrect.  They are simply fueled by frustration that our Starting PG is not good enough ( and that doesnt make our back up good enough either).  Same can be said about our shooting guard, if anyone needs a state of reference they only need to look at last year and the amount of minutes JAke got last year.  Hes prolly the worst starting Sg in the BE, great kid Im sure, but your not gonna win.  Sure Todd has been fabulous at times but non existant at other times...that means win some lose some.
I guarantee if 2 years ago you asked Buzz if DW and JT was your strating backcourt he would say he was in trouble.  UNfortunately it has worked out that way.  Buzz admitted last year he got caught through circumstances without enough good guards and has recruited his ass off to fix that going forward and to make sure it doesnt happen again regardless of what might unexpectedly transpire

[MU1980]

I agree it is unfortunate, but it is really that simple.  Buzz isnt over training.  Buzz didnt turn into a bad coach.  Buzz and the players are doing everything they can, unfortunately it just isnt enough.  Threads that say Dawson is better than derrick are incorrect.  They are simply fueled by frustration that our Starting PG is not good enough ( and that doesnt make our back up good enough either).  Same can be said about our shooting guard, if anyone needs a state of reference they only need to look at last year and the amount of minutes JAke got last year.  Hes prolly the worst starting Sg in the BE, great kid Im sure, but your not gonna win.  Sure Todd has been fabulous at times but non existant at other times...that means win some lose some.
I guarantee if 2 years ago you asked Buzz if DW and JT was your strating backcourt he would say he was in trouble.  UNfortunately it has worked out that way.  Buzz admitted last year he got caught through circumstances without enough good guards and has recruited his ass off to fix that going forward and to make sure it doesnt happen again regardless of what might unexpectedly transpire

So based on this post, a big reason we are struggling this year is because of a lack of quality guards.  I think most would agree with that. 

Do you believe Duane Wilson is a quality guard?  In your opinion would we be better, worse or about the same with Duane Wilson not red-shirting, realizing he is a freshman, although a highly recruited one. 

Do you know that the majority of stress fractures are from overworking without enough rest and recovery, although as you pointed out, James stress fracture was a trauma injury.  I have not heard anything to indicate this was a trauma injury; if someone knows differently they can point that out.   

These are the reasons this is a valid discussion, without putting any blame on Buzz, his staff, or Wilson.  I think everyone would rather see people work extremely hard as opposed to being lazy.  Sometimes injuries happen, but when you are pushing really hard as this program reportedly does, you run the risks of losing players because of it.  This wasn't a fluke injury; it appears to be an overuse injury.  This season would be different with Wilson playing; how much different nobody can know, but guard quality and depth is a big reason the team is struggling. 

[brandx]

So based on this post, a big reason we are struggling this year is because of a lack of quality guards.  I think most would agree with that. 

Do you believe Duane Wilson is a quality guard?  In your opinion would we be better, worse or about the same with Duane Wilson not red-shirting, realizing he is a freshman, although a highly recruited one. 

Do you know that the majority of stress fractures are from overworking without enough rest and recovery, although as you pointed out, James stress fracture was a trauma injury.  I have not heard anything to indicate this was a trauma injury; if someone knows differently they can point that out.   

These are the reasons this is a valid discussion, without putting any blame on Buzz, his staff, or Wilson.  I think everyone would rather see people work extremely hard as opposed to being lazy.  Sometimes injuries happen, but when you are pushing really hard as this program reportedly does, you run the risks of losing players because of it.  This wasn't a fluke injury; it appears to be an overuse injury.  This season would be different with Wilson playing; how much different nobody can know, but guard quality and depth is a big reason the team is struggling. 

You think other coaches wrap their players in bubble wrap? You think Izzo or Ryan or Matta, or Calipari go easy on their gus to avoid injury?

Your whole premise is silly.

[MU1980]

You think other coaches wrap their players in bubble wrap? You think Izzo or Ryan or Matta, or Calipari go easy on their gus to avoid injury?

Your whole premise is silly.

Not silly at all and nowhere did I imply that other coaches wrap their players in bubble wrap.

The reason I started the thread was last fall when Duane got his stress fracture, several avid college basketball fans were asking why it seems like we have so many more stress related injuries than other teams.  I really don't follow other teams that much so I didn't know if that was true or not.  When the team struggled this year and a big reason was because of lack of quality guards and depth at that position, I brought up the topic.  If you want to refute that statement with some facts, I am okay with that.

[NersEllenson]

Threads that say Dawson is better than derrick are incorrect.  They are simply fueled by frustration that our Starting PG is not good enough ( and that doesnt make our back up good enough either).  Same can be said about our shooting guard, if anyone needs a state of reference they only need to look at last year and the amount of minutes JAke got last year.  Hes prolly the worst starting Sg in the BE, great kid Im sure, but your not gonna win.  Sure Todd has been fabulous at times but non existant at other times...that means win some lose some.

Who do you think has more talent?:

Derrick Wilson or John Dawson?

Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas?

[MerrittsMustache]

Who do you think has more talent?:

Derrick Wilson or John Dawson?

Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas?

MORATORIUM!

[tower912]

Like anybody believed he could do it.   It would be like Snooki giving up tanning. 

[Lennys Tap]

Who do you think has more talent?:

Derrick Wilson or John Dawson?

Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas?

Good Todd Mayo has as much talent as anyone on the team. Bad Todd is the worst player on the team (0 points, 4 turnovers and one flagrant foul Saturday). He made one huge shot against Georgetown, but other than that isn't he (by far) our worst player away from the Bradley Center?

[River rat]

I agree with Lenny...and that is simply the problem with this years team.  IS not bad coaching, overtraining or all the other stupid conspiracies. 
it is simply two fold.
1) the talent isne where it needs to be or was projected to be.
2) Some of the better talent we have is unprepared( ie talented but not yet ready freshman) or is underperforming.

To asnwer some of the questions:  who is better jake or Todd??  Who knows?  One would like to say Todd but as lenny states Todd has turned in some of the worst performances I can remeber.  At st. Johns was pathetic.  At Butler almost as bad, and on and on.  he has more potential than JAke but potential and a dollar will get you a cup of coffe at Miss KAties.  @G is a hug problem and literally no one has stepped up for more than a game in a row....result = WLWLWLWL

PG - Derrick wilson is better than Dawson....Will Dawson be better than Derrick When he is a Junoir? yes...is he a junior? ... no.
All the kudos to John DAwson and I loved his performance against Georgetown but in 99% of our games this year Derrick has been better.  Its unfortunate for MU My guess is the PG minutes would have been 15 for VB, 18 for Duane and 7 for Derrick if things transpired according to plan