Seton Hall fans very complimentary of Buzz and MU

[NersEllenson]

Ners,

Why does it bother you so much if "realists" or "pessimists" take a wait-and-see attitude towards Buzz?  How do other fan's opinions affect your enjoyment of Buzz and MU bball.  Hey, maybe Buzz will lead the Warriors to a decent NCAA run and then he'll be a legit candidate for National Coach of  the Year.  Or maybe they'll tank against Louisville and ND and have another one-and-done in the NCAA's if they make the tourney.  There's just too much basketball left to be kissing his a@@ right now.

 
Gumby,
I'll go ahead and indulge you with a response - you do realize it is easy to look at one's posting history on this board - and a review of your early posts was quite negative on Buzz, and really, continues to be..which of course is your perrogative.  I can't say it so much bothers me that you and some others continue to be skeptical of Buzz, it's more that it just concerns me to see my fellow man not embrace something exciting and enjoy the fun times in life.  But, if my theory about you holds true and that you ultimately are a Badger troll - it just concerns me all the more about where you are at in life to derive some type of pleasure from raining on other people's parade and enthusiasm.

[gumbyandpokey]

 
Gumby,
I'll go ahead and indulge you with a response - you do realize it is easy to look at one's posting history on this board - and a review of your early posts was quite negative on Buzz, and really, continues to be..which of course is your perrogative.  I can't say it so much bothers me that you and some others continue to be skeptical of Buzz, it's more that it just concerns me to see my fellow man not embrace something exciting and enjoy the fun times in life.  But, if my theory about you holds true and that you ultimately are a Badger troll - it just concerns me all the more about where you are at in life to derive some type of pleasure from raining on other people's parade and enthusiasm.

This what I'm talking about.  If I have doubts about Buzz, and I do, how is that raining on your parade, for goodness sakes?  Way too many MU fans seem to have an inferiority complex of some kind worrying about what Gary Woeful (sp?) is saying/writing or what Michael Hunt is writing or what Mark Belling is saying (not to mention the almost chronic whining about the refs).  If you think Buzz is doing a great job, isn't that enough?  Why do you need validation from other fans?

[NersEllenson]

This what I'm talking about.  If I have doubts about Buzz, and I do, how is that raining on your parade, for goodness sakes?  Way too many MU fans seem to have an inferiority complex of some kind worrying about what Gary Woeful (sp?) is saying/writing or what Michael Hunt is writing or what Mark Belling is saying (not to mention the almost chronic whining about the refs).  If you think Buzz is doing a great job, isn't that enough?  Why do you need validation from other fans?

Thank you for your reply, you've pretty much just validated my theory that you are a Badger fan.  No Marquette fan would write what you just wrote.  I don't care what Badger fans think about MU - could care less..and if they want to have doubts about Buzz and be skeptical great.  Speaking of doubts about Buzz, since you mention having some - could you please share them with us?? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wow, the Seton Hall fans have a better perception of the warriors and Buzz than our own fans. What a season, I just hope the ride continues. Probably need one more win hopefully on Tuesday.

LOL.

I'm still laughing at your "I've been following your posts for 2 years" thread, even though you joined a few weeks ago.  Classic.  Glad you're inspired now to roll up a bunch since then.

Query....what is the perception of Buzz from our own fans that you've discovered in your 2 years of viewing (while not registering).  LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's interesting that their knowledgeable fans point to MU as the best coached team to play the Pirates this year while many in our own fanbase want to wait another 3+ years to decide whether or not Buzz can coach.

That is interesting....I went back just a few weeks prior on the same board (those pesky internets) and they said the same thing about other coaches.  Maybe they're just very generous with their praise.

And yes, to quote another poster here, it is getting old.  LOL.  Sorry, I'll wait for a few more years (too many fans said the same thing about other coaches early on only to scratch their head two years later....don't think that will happen here, but I'd like to be sure).  Still don't know why we allow teams to take 3 pointers to tie games when we can foul them as soon as they get across the half court line.  We're going to get stung by that eventually.

[NersEllenson]

That is interesting....I went back just a few weeks prior on the same board (those pesky internets) and they said the same thing about other coaches.  Maybe they're just very generous with their praise.

And yes, to quote another poster here, it is getting old.  LOL.  Sorry, I'll wait for a few more years (too many fans said the same thing about other coaches early on only to scratch their head two years later....don't think that will happen here, but I'd like to be sure).  Still don't know why we allow teams to take 3 pointers to tie games when we can foul them as soon as they get across the half court line.  We're going to get stung by that eventually.

-Can you provide some examples in MU basketball history where fans were too enthusiastic about a 2nd year coach, only to scratch their heads 2 years later?  I assume you are referring to MU basketball, and not just sports in general, considering we are discussing MU basketball.  And if you mention Mike Deane, please elaborate on how you knew a lot of fans were jumping on the bandwagon too fast - considering the "pesky internets" weren't really active in 1998-1999, at least not message boards.  Lastly, to make a guy take a contested 24-foot jumper versus putting him on the line for free throws..whereby a player makes the first free throw, then intentionally bricks the 2nd..and his team winds up with an offensive rebound, and proceeds to make a 2 to tie the game....debatable either way..but I have a feeling if your strategy were employed, and failed...the outcry among fans would be significant.

[ChicosBailBonds]

-Can you provide some examples in MU basketball history where fans were too enthusiastic about a 2nd year coach, only to scratch their heads 2 years later?  I assume you are referring to MU basketball, and not just sports in general, considering we are discussing MU basketball.  And if you mention Mike Deane, please elaborate on how you knew a lot of fans were jumping on the bandwagon too fast - considering the "pesky internets" weren't really active in 1998-1999, at least not message boards.  Lastly, to make a guy take a contested 24-foot jumper versus putting him on the line for free throws..whereby a player makes the first free throw, then intentionally bricks the 2nd..and his team winds up with an offensive rebound, and proceeds to make a 2 to tie the game....debatable either way..but I have a feeling if your strategy were employed, and failed...the outcry among fans would be significant.

I provided you with several articles the other day on the strategy of fouling and not letting them take the three, including National COY of the likely winner, Jim Boeheim, who said he employs that strategy.  The reason is simple.  To hit the 3 pointer, only one thing has to happen.  When you use the fouling strategy, a minimum of four things have to happen and all of them perfectly (make a free throw, miss a free throw on purpose, get the rebound, score a basket).  That's why Boeheim prefers it.

Now, before those "pesky internets", there were things like public perception, call in shows, letters to that athletic department (ooooohhhh), etc.  But even when Mike Deane was around, there were message boards, and yes, people were very much on board with him.  There are still people to this day.

But to answer your question directly, I was not referencing just Marquette, which is why I said I need 4 of 5 years.  I watched Steve Lavin crumble here in my back yard at UCLA.  Bruiser Flint at UMass.  Matt Doherty at North Carolina (named AP NATIONAL Coach of the YEAR), Guthridge at North Carolina, Kevin O'Neill at Tennessee, Tubby at Kentucky, Jerry Wainwright at DePaul, etc, etc.  I could go on and on.

Do I think any of those things will happen with Buzz?  Nope. I sure hope not, but because there has been enough carnage over the years with people annointing coaches after only 2 years...well, I take the cautious approach, especially when said coach is using former coach's players which is almost always the case.  That's why I have said from day one, I need 4 or 5 years to evaluate.  Don't tell the girl you love her after the first kiss.  

[Dave Krupinski]

In general I think most of the metro teams have very educated fans that watch a lot of bball (we have sick cable programming). Also I think like SHU, my fellow Johnny fans appreciate and respect Buzz Williams a lot. In 2 years he has done more than Gonzo or Roberts has done for their teams in 5-6 years. Personally I love listening to Buzz Williams speak because he spits out facts and he's so damn passionate about what he says. Ohhh what a coach sounds like I wish I could hear it more often.

[ChicosBailBonds]

In general I think most of the metro teams have very educated fans that watch a lot of bball (we have sick cable programming). Also I think like SHU, my fellow Johnny fans appreciate and respect Buzz Williams a lot. In 2 years he has done more than Gonzo or Roberts has done for their teams in 5-6 years. Personally I love listening to Buzz Williams speak because he spits out facts and he's so damn passionate about what he says. Ohhh what a coach sounds like I wish I could hear it more often.

The Johnnies really need to get their next hire right.  Too much history, talent, etc, not to have a solid program in New York for so long.  In fact, to see New York and Chicago college teams struggle this much for this long is a real head scratcher.

[NersEllenson]

.

But to answer your question directly, I was not referencing just Marquette, which is why I said I need 4 of 5 years.  I watched Steve Lavin crumble here in my back yard at UCLA.  Bruiser Flint at UMass.  Matt Doherty at North Carolina (named AP NATIONAL Coach of the YEAR), Guthridge at North Carolina, Kevin O'Neill at Tennessee, Tubby at Kentucky, Jerry Wainwright at DePaul, etc, etc.  I could go on and on.

Do I think any of those things will happen with Buzz?  Nope. I sure hope not, but because there has been enough carnage over the years with people annointing coaches after only 2 years...well, I take the cautious approach, especially when said coach is using former coach's players which is almost always the case.  That's why I have said from day one, I need 4 or 5 years to evaluate.  Don't tell the girl you love her after the first kiss.  

  Buzz is winning largely in spite of what the former coach left in the cupboard this season - 3 players, that's it.  We all can agree last year with the Big 3 doesn't count..because most coaches could have come in and had success with that team.  But, I think this year has provided enough evidence that Buzz Williams isn't going the way of Lavin, Guthridge, Wainwright, etc.  Not sure that Tubby is a good example, however, as he had good success at Kentucky.

[ChicosBailBonds]

  Buzz is winning largely in spite of what the former coach left in the cupboard this season - 3 players, that's it.  We all can agree last year with the Big 3 doesn't count..because most coaches could have come in and had success with that team.  But, I think this year has provided enough evidence that Buzz Williams isn't going the way of Lavin, Guthridge, Wainwright, etc.  Not sure that Tubby is a good example, however, as he had good success at Kentucky.

I think we have common ground Ners....that's why I said I don't think that will happen with Buzz, but that doesn't change my evaluation period.  I need 4 to 5 years, just my nature.  I've seen too many scenarios where it doesn't work out.  That goes for the flip side, too.  I'm not one to run a coach out after 2 or 3 years either.  I want coaches to be given ample time to do what they need to do and to do it on their own.  To see how the rest of the league responds, catches on to the schemes, etc.  Can they adapt, can they continue to motivate, etc, etc.  So far, Buzz has done that much to my enjoyment. It's been a fun year.

[MUBurrow]

me too! me too!  there are just some things buzz hasnt even been here long enough for the opportunity to prove.  essentially the GM responsibilities that every college head coach has.  while this year is certainly the most encouraging thing i could have asked for, i feel duty bound to hold off on judging him as a program builder.  i just mean that i want to see how he takes his own recruited talent, and forms a team with its own identity.  he has taken his first small step in doing that this year, but the farther into the job you get, the trickier that can get too. years 3-4ish really seem to swallow some coaches whole because their teams lack identity or direction.  this year has been great, but i really want to see how some of Buzz's younger recruits mature and develop within a program that is solidly and foundationally his alone.  

PS: i think a real lesson in this season is the value of using JUCO guys to transition a program. a lot of guys want to start clean or have trouble doing so.  Buzz has masterfully inserted guys with a couple extra years experience who would be immediately ready to contribute instead of thrusting 3,4,5 18 year old kids who might not be ready for the next level into a new program. i think this might be a trend that develops with new coaches - to use more experienced players to gradually turn a program into their own.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Agree 100% - not sure what is "old," about another teams fans complimenting our coach?  Furthermore, what's ironic is Seton Hall fans are complimenting Buzz more than some of our own fans have been willing to.  I just don't get the "realist" MU fans, as they like to call themselves who continue to take a wait and see approach about Buzz.  It's almost as if at this point, they simply cannot swallow their pride..and admit their continued pessimism (or realism) was the wrong choice to have in the first place regarding Buzz.  We should be thrilled about the job Buzz is doing...as most MU fans are, but there are the small minority of posters here who continue to preach caution.

I absolutely LOVE the job Buzz has done since he came to MU.

HOWEVER, a lot of people were in love with Mike Deane as well.

Obviously I realize that Buzz's recruiting automatically gives him a higher ceiling than Deane, but we've all seen new coaches have great runs and then have it go south. It happened to Hank. It happened to Deane. It's happened all over college basketball.

I am extremely optimistic for future seasons, but please forgive me for not awarding Buzz a lifetime contract (yet).

Like him? Yep.

Optimistic? Yep.

Love him and will never doubt anything he does? Nope. A little too early for me still.

[hairy worthen]

LOL.

I'm still laughing at your "I've been following your posts for 2 years" thread, even though you joined a few weeks ago.  Classic.  Glad you're inspired now to roll up a bunch since then.

Query....what is the perception of Buzz from our own fans that you've discovered in your 2 years of viewing (while not registering).  LOL

I registered  a month or so ago, but have been reading the threads on mu scoop for a while, (I am sure over two years.) You do not have to register to read the posts, at least not from my computer. You do have to register to make a post.

I was simply stating my opinion on an opinion board, go figure. I am sure you are a nice guy and obviously intelligent, but that was  my opinion based on your history of posts. Didn't mean to criticsize you for it I actually agree with many of your takes.

[Lennys Tap]

I registered  a month or so ago, but have been reading the threads on mu scoop for a while, (I am sure over two years.) You do not have to register to read the posts, at least not from my computer. You do have to register to make a post.

I was simply stating my opinion on an opinion board, go figure. I am sure you are a nice guy and obviously intelligent, but that was  my opinion based on your history of posts. Didn't mean to criticsize you for it I actually agree with many of your takes.

Some of our more prolific posters are disdainful toward newcomers (even those who have followed the MU boards for years). Don't be intimidated - your opinions are just as viable and worthwhile as theirs.

[hairy worthen]

Thanks,

Little bit surprised at all the back lash but comes with the territory I guess.

[gumbyandpokey]

Thank you for your reply, you've pretty much just validated my theory that you are a Badger fan.  No Marquette fan would write what you just wrote.  I don't care what Badger fans think about MU - could care less..and if they want to have doubts about Buzz and be skeptical great.  Speaking of doubts about Buzz, since you mention having some - could you please share them with us?? 

First, you're "theory" is wrong.  It's very easy to be an MU fan but still be puzzled at the oversensitivity of many Warrior fans.

And doubts about Buzz...

--failure to land a serviceable big

--end of game coaching strategy (giving up 3 pt looks instead of fouling at the end, MU's last shot's end up being broken plays, etc)

[Hards Alumni]

I registered  a month or so ago, but have been reading the threads on mu scoop for a while, (I am sure over two years.) You do not have to register to read the posts, at least not from my computer. You do have to register to make a post.

I was simply stating my opinion on an opinion board, go figure. I am sure you are a nice guy and obviously intelligent, but that was  my opinion based on your history of posts. Didn't mean to criticsize you for it I actually agree with many of your takes.

Don't worry, Chicos is just the guy at school who was always chosen last and now thinks he is top dog around here; so he picks on people the way he used to get picked on.  You'll get used to it. 

[NersEllenson]

Chicos, Burrows, MU2002 - I guess you all make a decent case for your cautious optimism.  Certainly there have been historical examples of coaches flaming out after 2 years...but from everything I've seen about Buzz - he's pretty much done as much to eliminate any doubts I personally would have about a coach. Can he recruit?  Yes.  Can he coach/motivate his players?  Yes.  Is he a good ambassodor/GM of the program?  Yes.  Has he been mentioned as a 1 of 4 possible National Coach of the Year candidates by Andy Katz?  Yes.  Have we had any off court issues with any of our players?  Maybe Hazel, and we all know he never saw the floor again last year - and we could have used his energy/rebounding last year.  Point being, Buzz isn't afraid to discipline a player - even though that may be detrimental to helping the team.  Buzz didn't cave to Maymon's, etc.  He's shown a tough streak and a consistent high caliber character.

[muballer10]

I really liked how they said MU looked like the Harlem Globetrotters with their excellent ball movement. I noticed the same thing, as there was a stretch in the 2nd half where it seemed like every time down the court it was dribble, blow past, get help, pass off at the last second to where the defender came from, easy layup. While it was frustrating to see Seton Hall climb back in, it was one of the more fun games to watch from the offensive side of the ball.

[NersEllenson]

First, you're "theory" is wrong.  It's very easy to be an MU fan but still be puzzled at the oversensitivity of many Warrior fans.

And doubts about Buzz...

--failure to land a serviceable big

--end of game coaching strategy (giving up 3 pt looks instead of fouling at the end, MU's last shot's end up being broken plays, etc)

Well Gumby - from your first post on November 26th you wrote:  Hayward is going to have to score a ton of points to keep MU in any game vs a decent team.  It looks like MU has one scoring option and that's Lazar Hayward.  The rest of the team is filler.  

Let's just hope Lazar can stay out of foul trouble.  He has to be on the floor every possible minute.
I'd say for a team consisting of "filler," Buzz has done a pretty good job getting them to 10 wins and a likely NCAA tourney bid.  But, clearly a team with 1 player - Hayward - and the rest filler, certainly should make the NCAA and go on a decent run in the tourney, as opposed to losing in the first round, right?

Last I checked this team has won 3 OT games in a row - so they seem to be doing well in end of game situations.  You knee jerked early on this season and were highly critical of end game situations due to the losses - but now that things have evened out..you still find fault in how we win these games?  Find some joy in life, please.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some of our more prolific posters are disdainful toward newcomers (even those who have followed the MU boards for years). Don't be intimidated - your opinions are just as viable and worthwhile as theirs.

Mostly the ones that have 3 or 4 usernames here to post the same thing, in the same thread, in a way to bolster their argument.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Chicos, Burrows, MU2002 - I guess you all make a decent case for your cautious optimism.  Certainly there have been historical examples of coaches flaming out after 2 years...but from everything I've seen about Buzz - he's pretty much done as much to eliminate any doubts I personally would have about a coach. Can he recruit?  Yes.

Really? You're sure already? Jimmy Butler and DJO are awesome. I love them. But, the knock on the former coach was "he got lucky" with a guy like Wade and deiner + Novak landed in his lap. How are we sure Buzz isn't just "lucky"? I think Buzz is a good recruiter, but I need to see more production on the court to prove it.  

Can he coach/motivate his players?  Yes.  

Agreed. Looks like he's got them going well.

Is he a good ambassador/GM of the program?  Yes.  

Yes. He's doing well so far... but winning and the "honeymoon period" have helped him. If/when he has a tough year, we'll see how much everybody loves his accent and weird intricacies. As long as he wins, everybody will find him charming. If/when he loses, has transfer issues, players quite, etc. he'll have his share of haters.

Has he been mentioned as a 1 of 4 possible National Coach of the Year candidates by Andy Katz?  Yes.  

Yep. Love this. Well deserved. They are performing great right now.

Have we had any off court issues with any of our players?  Maybe Hazel, and we all know he never saw the floor again last year - and we could have used his energy/rebounding last year.  Point being, Buzz isn't afraid to discipline a player - even though that may be detrimental to helping the team.  Buzz didn't cave to Maymon's, etc.  He's shown a tough streak and a consistent high caliber character.

BIG assumption here. I'm not saying you're wrong, because I really don't know, but blanket statements like "Buzz isn't afraid to discipline" etc. etc. Are dangerous statements in my opinion. I need to see more of a track record before I can start saying/believing things like that. The Maymon thing isn't really Buzz's fault, but he is ultimately responsible because he decided to bring Maymon in. Buzz has to know what he is getting into with every player.

I think this just comes down to differing viewpoints, and that's OK. We're looking at the same "evidence", but coming to different conclusions.

Anyways, I hope you are right. I hope Buzz is the guy at MU for a long time.

*Edit* If Buzz was a stock, I'd be buying for sure. But, I wouldn't mortgage my house on it. I've seen too many "can't miss" coaches flame out.

[NersEllenson]

I think this just comes down to differing viewpoints, and that's OK. We're looking at the same "evidence", but coming to different conclusions.

Anyways, I hope you are right. I hope Buzz is the guy at MU for a long time.

*Edit* If Buzz was a stock, I'd be buying for sure. But, I wouldn't mortgage my house on it. I've seen too many "can't miss" coaches flame out.

Well said.  I would add that regarding Buzz's recruiting, sure we need to see more production from next year's class, etc.  However, it is hard to argue with what he's assembled with regarding to incoming evaluation/expectations.  His two classes thus far have been back-to-back Top 20 classes nationally.  Plus the JUCO's he gets are 1st team All-Americans, but aren't really rated on the same scale as high-school players -with regard to how Scout/Rivals/ESPN rate players..Both Buycks and DJO have been pretty good this year, so it stands to reason Crowder should be pretty good next year.  Nontheless..just can't remember the last time MU landed back-to-back Top 20 classes..so on that, I'm going to say Buzz can recruit.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well said.  I would add that regarding Buzz's recruiting, sure we need to see more production from next year's class, etc.  However, it is hard to argue with what he's assembled with regarding to incoming evaluation/expectations.  His two classes thus far have been back-to-back Top 20 classes nationally.  Plus the JUCO's he gets are 1st team All-Americans, but aren't really rated on the same scale as high-school players -with regard to how Scout/Rivals/ESPN rate players..Both Buycks and DJO have been pretty good this year, so it stands to reason Crowder should be pretty good next year.  Nontheless..just can't remember the last time MU landed back-to-back Top 20 classes..so on that, I'm going to say Buzz can recruit.

You're probably right about his recruiting.

But, I just want to see a little more. I want to see how he can continually assemble his teams. I want to see if he can avoid kids leaving if their PT gets cut. I want to see if he continually over-recruits. What about Roseboro? What about Maymon? Those are some small red flags for me. Doesn't mean I don't think Buzz is good, just means I'm cautious.

I think he's good at scouting and getting guys to sign on the dotted line. I'm interested to see how he does with the other parts of recruiting (politics, PT, team chemistry, best player available vs positions of need, etc. etc.)