Tennis

[JWags85]

The 2nd paragraph is what a defeated person would say to attempt to distract from the facts of the particular match. That is gaslighting by definition. It’s completely irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Better players and better teams don’t always win. And when they lose, often times the other team was better that day. Tennis, golf, team or individual sports.

Ostapenko has now been better than Iga 4 straight times in their 4 meetings. That’s a pattern. Swiatek has also struggled at times with a select group of players on hard courts. That’s a pattern. It doesn’t mean that she isn’t a good or great player. It does mean there are other good or great players too.

I think Muggsy is incorrect for saying Ostapenko won because Swiatek "lost focus" or wasn't playing well or whatnot.  But I'm not sure why that means that saying Swiatek is the better player is gaslighting?  Its not.  Muggsy gaslighted, but 82 did not.

Marquette had a concerning pattern for a few years of losing to Depaul and St Johns, even when the latter were not particularly good.  Numerous top teams have historical pattern of losing to certain teams or coaches where its a bad matchup or some sort of advantage their opponent is able to exploit.  That doesn't mean their opponent is a better team than them even though they win that matchup.

As you said the better team doesn't always win.  But "better" to me speaks to the overall body of work, which is what Mike is getting at.  Saying that Ostapenko outplayed and got the upperhand over a better player (when the better player has won 3 majors out of the last 6 and is the defending champion) is a credit and compliment to her.  Trying to object to calling the consensus #1 player a "better" player seems like overly complicating something to prove some sort of advanced expertise point.  Ostapenko plays a unique and frustrating style for many and can be really tough when she's on and has had a really nice career, but Swiatek has won more majors than Ostapenko has major semi appearances, its not some crazy statement to say she's better.

[shoothoops]

"Better player" were your words, not mine. I think if we both agreed on the participants in a panel of 10 experts and asked them, "Who is the better player, Ostapenko or Swiatek?" at least 9 of 10 would say Swiatek. (And 9 of 10 is probably being overly generous to Ostapenko.)

Obviously, Ostapenko was the better player yesterday. But that's clearly not what you said.

Fair enough. Happy to clarify. Better player implied better player that day. Seemed obvious but I have zero problem speaking more clearly. Different players are the better players in any given match. Your comment was made in a general fashion, referencing body of work outside of the specific match, which of course doesn't matter in that match or the other 3 in which Penko defeated Swiatek. And that's to which what I was referring.

Overall point is that the far bigger reason Swiatek lost was Penko not Swiatek. Neither of course can be excluded entirely. It would not be accurate to say or imply close to 50/50.
I am far from alone in that opinion..And again, the facts are out there for all to see.

[MuggsyB]

Nice to sew Gauff obliterated Penko.

Look at the 3rd Set stats between Swiatek/Ostapenko.  Loot at how many points Iga won on her 1st serve.  She played poorly, it's that simple.  In closing Muggsy watched what happened, has eagle-eye vision, and is100% correct. 

[MU82]

Fair enough. Happy to clarify. Better player implied better player that day. Seemed obvious but I have zero problem speaking more clearly. Different players are the better players in any given match. Your comment was made in a general fashion, referencing body of work outside of the specific match, which of course doesn't matter in that match or the other 3 in which Penko defeated Swiatek. And that's to which what I was referring.

Overall point is that the far bigger reason Swiatek lost was Penko not Swiatek. Neither of course can be excluded entirely. It would not be accurate to say or imply close to 50/50.
I am far from alone in that opinion..And again, the facts are out there for all to see.

Thanks for the clarification on "better player," as Swiatek is obviously the better player - the facts are out there for all to see.

Otherwise, the whole argument has been silly - in other words, Scoopy to the max.

[MuggsyB]

Thanks for the clarification on "better player," as Swiatek is obviously the better player - the facts are out there for all to see.

Otherwise, the whole argument has been silly - in other words, Scoopy to the max.

The reason the argument has been silly is because he refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.  So why don't we just cut the b-crap before Gauff wins this thing on Saturday.  If you recall, at the French Open a few years ago, Swiatek destroyed Coco and shoothoops stated "it was a very close match" which was 1000% untrue.  So my guess is, because I pointed out areas where Coco could improve after that match, on Saturday you will read another false narrative that I stated Coco will never win a GS or something like that. 

[shoothoops]

Thanks for the clarification on "better player," as Swiatek is obviously the better player - the facts are out there for all to see.

Otherwise, the whole argument has been silly - in other words, Scoopy to the max.

See you couldn't help yourself here when I kindly even gave you an out. Even Wags jumped in for you. Sigh.

The discussion was about one specific match. When evidence doesn't support the position, let's make sure we throw it in there again that Swiatek is a better player.

And double bonus points for trying to back that uo with oh well both sides both sides.

The only thing silly here is Muggsy's unwillingness to credit one player for being better than another in a match without any caveats. He clearly likes certain players and dislikes certain players which is fine unless he also has an inability to be objective despite that. And he clearly doesn't have that ability as shown by his previous posts and folllw up posts.

It's hero worship and scapegoating. The players are put into groups based on that way of thinking to form opinions vs objectivity.

[MuggsyB]

See you couldn't help yourself here when I kindly even gave you an out. Even Wags jumped in for you. Sigh.

The discussion was about one specific match. When evidence doesn't support the position, let's make sure we throw it in there again that Swiatek is a better player.

And double bonus points for trying to back that uo with oh well both sides both sides.

The only thing silly here is Muggsy's unwillingness to credit one player for being better than another in a match without any caveats. He clearly likes certain players and dislikes certain players which is fine unless he also has an inability to be objective despite that. And he clearly doesn't have that ability as shown by his previous posts and folllw up posts.

It's hero worship and scapegoating. The players are put into groups based on that way of thinking to form opinions vs objectivity.

I giave Penko credit, that's not the point. 

[MuggsyB]

Quotes directly from Swiatek after her performance against Ostapenko:

"I have no clear answer why parts of my game stopped working.  I had no idea why suddenly I couldn't return."  Give the young lady credit for her honesty.  And that's exactly what happened.  Parts of her game completely fell apart. 

[MU82]

See you couldn't help yourself here when I kindly even gave you an out. Even Wags jumped in for you. Sigh.

The discussion was about one specific match. When evidence doesn't support the position, let's make sure we throw it in there again that Swiatek is a better player.

And double bonus points for trying to back that uo with oh well both sides both sides.

The only thing silly here is Muggsy's unwillingness to credit one player for being better than another in a match without any caveats. He clearly likes certain players and dislikes certain players which is fine unless he also has an inability to be objective despite that. And he clearly doesn't have that ability as shown by his previous posts and folllw up posts.

It's hero worship and scapegoating. The players are put into groups based on that way of thinking to form opinions vs objectivity.

Silliness.

[BM1090]

Djokovic has played about as poorly as I've seen him play, but Fritz hasn't come close to taking advantage. Of course, he's still better than most when he's not at his best but Fritz has let a lot of opportunities slip away in the first 1.5 sets.

[shoothoops]

One way traffic for Gauff over Penko.

Gauff has the ability to play different ways depending on the opponent.

First 15 minutes were big. High level, clean.

Exceptional defense, positioning, and anticipation early in the match. Making Penko hit an extra ball, and turning defense into offense. Variety.

Consistent forehand depth. Ostapenko likes to play front foot tennis near the baseline. Taken away there too.

Made the rallies cross court not allowing Penko to create angles from the middle.

Physical tennis not allowing Penko inside the baseline.

Return of serve. 100% of returns in play 1st set for Coco. (94% overall.$ Just 44% for Penko.

Served depth and variety to hit targets instead of just pace. It doesn’t allow front tennis for Penko. 67% 1st set vs 25%. Penko never found her serve. And she wasn’t a good defender when the 2nd serve had little on it. And the few times Gauff needed it she put some extra pace on the first serve.

Penko had very few moments overall, and when she did it was when she only needed a step side to side or forward to find her pace. The counter was to up the pace back in those few moments.

Penko doesn’t like to keep tighter strings, which is something that helps control in high heat conditions.

Gauff approached 30% of the time in previous reounds. 10% v Penko. Bet on herself and her defense vs Penko offense. Pretty good bet. She didn’t need to come in to force the issue but it was a back up option.

And that’s key. Options, the ability to play different ways depending on that day’s circumstances and opponent and how that opponent is playing.

92 degree sunshine, 50% humidity, middle of the day. (And yes Coco’s team lobbied for the time of day of the match)

[shoothoops]

Quotes directly from Swiatek after her performance against Ostapenko:

"I have no clear answer why parts of my game stopped working.  I had no idea why suddenly I couldn't return."  Give the young lady credit for her honesty.  And that's exactly what happened.  Parts of her game completely fell apart.

Lol. Nope. All this shows is that she selfishly gave zero credit to her opponent in her presser.

I’m happy to provide links to both full pressers, plus a plethora of outlets that say otherwise. I’ve already provided some.

Here’s Penko’s presser where she explains in part why she was successful, while she still was complimentary of Swiatek. It isn’t difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4X_A_xjYk

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Novak vs Carlos feels inevitable at this point

[MuggsyB]

Novak vs Carlos feels inevitable at this point

Medvy?  Hard to see the Djoker not making the Final.

Medvy came to play today.  Alcaraz is going to have to dig deep. 

[MuggsyB]

Whoa.  Shelton has some serious heavy lumber on his 1st serve.

[MU82]

Gonna be honest here (as always): A week ago, I had never heard of Ben Shelton.

His game sure is fun to watch, and he brings a lot of emotion to the court.

[MuggsyB]

Gonna be honest here (as always): A week ago, I had never heard of Ben Shelton.

His game sure is fun to watch, and he brings a lot of emotion to the court.

Only 20.  Wild swings in this match.   

[JWags85]

Shelton is a superstar in the making. What an absolute cannon on the service line.

And it’s crazy that Tiafoe is still only 25, he started showing the potential so young.

This match is super fun, both players hit with violence.  It’s the only way I can put it.

[MuggsyB]

Shelton is a superstar in the making. What an absolute cannon on the service line.

And it’s crazy that Tiafoe is still only 25, he started showing the potential so young.

This match is super fun, both players hit with violence.  It’s the only way I can put it.

Yes.  This is highly entertaining.  Both can absolutely bludgeon the ball.

[MuggsyB]

On a side note I don't really get cupping therapy. 

[MuggsyB]

Wow!: That was crazy!!  Can Shelton slam the door in 4?

[MU82]

Gotta be impressed with the kid's guts, as well as his game. Two straight double-faults in the 3rd-set tiebreaker ... and then comes back with a ballsy 8000-mph forehand to save set point. Rolls from there against a tough opponent. Fun!

[MuggsyB]

Gotta be impressed with the kid's guts, as well as his game. Two straight double-faults in the 3rd-set tiebreaker ... and then comes back with a ballsy 8000-mph forehand to save set point. Rolls from there against a tough opponent. Fun!

No fear!  This was an illustration of attacking with vengeance.

[shoothoops]

Ben Shelton is the 6th Open era American Male to win 10 Grand Slam matches before age 21:

Aggasi, Sampras, Courier, Chang, Roddick.
…………………
Shelton is the youngest American Male in the US Open Semis since Michael Chang in 1992.

………………

One year ago Ben was ranked 165 in the World. In his first full pro season since winning the individual NCAA Title at Florida, (won the team title the previous year) he will be ranked in the top 20 after the US Open.
………………
Shelton is also in the Mixed Doubles Semis with Taylor Townsend. Rhey face fellow Americans Austin Krajicek and Jessie Pegula.

They are part of a group of Atlanta pro players that includes Gauff, Eubanks, Townsend, Donald Young, and others. Plays a lot of dubs with Eubanks.

Mom was a high level junior player. Dad was a top 50ish pro and multiple national title winning NCAA coach Women and Men at Georgia Tech and Florida. His sister played at South Carolina and Florida.

[MU82]

A little more on Shelton from The Athletic: He was only 8-20 as a pro headed into the U.S. Open, so it's not as if he was an immediate star after leaving college, where his father was his coach.

He's quite a showman. I enjoyed how he played to the crowd, though I wonder whether he also did so when he was getting his butt kicked earlier in the year.

Whether he goes on to be the long-awaited next U.S. superstar or he's a one-hit wonder (or more likely something in between those extremes), he's a ton of fun to watch. His match against Djokovic should be fascinating because of the many contrasts: youth vs. experience; athleticism vs. precision; 150 mph serve vs. the best service-return game ever; etc.